What is the goal here with all of the asking for buffs and nerfs?

Do we want to end up with all classes being exactly the same such that everyone dies at the same time at the end of every battle? Some classes are better in certain situations than other classes. This is the way it is. There is no perfect balance. How about we all stop whining and just play the game.
(Full disclosure, I have 50s in all three realms.)

Fri 12 Apr 2019 1:39 PM by teiloh

Imo, there should be a concrete class vision for each class. Once that's settled we should be optimizing fun factor, internal consistency ( e.g. a 1.5 spec line should be as strong as any other 1.5 spec line, etc) build diversity.

Many specs in 1.65 DaoC are lackluster. Balancing is a challenge but it's worth undertaking.

Fri 12 Apr 2019 2:14 PM by Zzang

Sure, there will never be a perfect balance and even in Chess some side has to start, a bit of unfair to the other player don't you think?

The problem is not diversity or difference in classes, the problem is imbalance and classes that are way too strong in some way. If you think 1.65 is a perfect version of this game you probably are stuck in a nostalgic, memory-driven part of your brain which can't appreciate and cope with changes. Yes, we can be happy and play the game but the true essence of a sustainable computer game is dynamic changes and balancing. I'm not saying they have to change all classes to perfect mirror match, they just need to bring those totally out of line in and give some buffs to those who are lacking.

Phoenix team already made some very nice changes to this game and I hope they are not afraid to look at things anew and see if additional balancing measures are needed. I personally miss someone responsible for class/realm changes that has an open attitude and can explain why and how they do future changes. Although I do understand they are very careful since most of the people who hang around these forums are very ego-sensitive people. (If that last part felt bad in any way you are one of them)

Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:17 PM by Kampfar

90% just want their class buffed and all others nerfed. Many many "suggestions" are just whiny bs...

Sat 13 Apr 2019 9:06 AM by k3mra

Kampfar wrote: ↑
Fri 12 Apr 2019 7:17 PM
90% just want their class buffed and all others nerfed. Many many "suggestions" are just whiny bs...

That and its much easier to complain as it is to analyse what you did wrong and could do better next time.

And sometimes its just a bad day for you... but they there is still the option to make a "nerf that" post in the forums

Sat 13 Apr 2019 1:25 PM by Bradekes

There are no checks and balances in this game... that is the problem... All the data collected via realm activity is skewed by different RR's and lots of low levels in task area, different levels of templates, not complaining... But in most games these days the mods have a lot of clean data to work with to determine the fairness of a class type or hero type... If you ever played Heroes of the Storm you can go to Hotslogs.com to see all of the data they can compile to determine what hero, ability, talent, etc are over performining on a % basis from thousands of matches...

So here all we have is player feedback and mods attempting to at least balance the game through making sure the numbers are right on certain abilities from various iterations of the game which is not exactly the best way to balance a game but it is what we have... Most likely this will end up with a very weird balance that will all be overhauled one day...

If you want my opinion on how to balance DAOC on a big scale, is give every ability a Utility value much like items have a Utility, find some way to determine the Utility of styles as well... Balance it by making sure every class and every spec tree has equal Utility based on the amount of spec points a class gets... This would be slightly difficult but the abilities in this game are so uniform in general I don't think it would be impossible...

Mon 15 Apr 2019 8:31 AM by Sepplord

chryso wrote: Do we want to end up with all classes being exactly the same such that everyone dies at the same time at the end of every battle? Some classes are better in certain situations than other classes. This is the way it is. There is no perfect balance. How about we all stop whining and just play the game.
(Full disclosure, I have 50s in all three realms.)

Because in games with mirror-classes all fights end with everyone dieing at the same time at the end of every battle?
Way to start of a reasonable discussion...

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Sat 13 Apr 2019 1:25 PM
If you want my opinion on how to balance DAOC on a big scale, is give every ability a Utility value much like items have a Utility, find some way to determine the Utility of styles as well... Balance it by making sure every class and every spec tree has equal Utility based on the amount of spec points a class gets... This would be slightly difficult but the abilities in this game are so uniform in general I don't think it would be impossible...

I agree with all what you wrote before about balance, but i don't think this approach is possible because of the differences and viabilities in different situations. What is high utility in some situations can be almost useless in others (for example climb walls in open-RvR). Single abilities are more powerful on some classes than on others (for example slam on reaver is far more important than slam on BM). Having multiple different spells stacked onto one class is beneficial for sure on that class, but simply adding the utility doesn't really show the whole picture etc...
Your idea isn't bad per se...i just think it paints a pretty simple picture that will still have the same problems to do it right as other approaches

Mon 15 Apr 2019 10:36 AM by Bradekes

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Apr 2019 8:31 AM
I agree with all what you wrote before about balance, but i don't think this approach is possible because of the differences and viabilities in different situations. What is high utility in some situations can be almost useless in others (for example climb walls in open-RvR). Single abilities are more powerful on some classes than on others (for example slam on reaver is far more important than slam on BM). Having multiple different spells stacked onto one class is beneficial for sure on that class, but simply adding the utility doesn't really show the whole picture etc...
Your idea isn't bad per se...i just think it paints a pretty simple picture that will still have the same problems to do it right as other approaches

That's like saying +40 dex is more usful for an archer than a tank... While yes an archer would receive more use out of it, it still takes up the same utility on your template...

It's the same argument I keep running into on the warden threads, warden has PBT and somehow it's more utility for a warden than for a thuergist to have PBT... This just isn't true it's the same ability and does the exact same function... And the warden having heals and pbt is quite strong, it is easy to group a thuergist and a friar for that exact effect + a lot of extra damage..

I would agrue that slam is 100% just as useful on any class.. While a reaver can exploit it more that is because the reavers overall utility gained in flexible is quite low and requires 50spec to shine... Other styles in flex are pretty weak and hard to pull off, besides that it gives multiple damage types.. Slash for example has much better anytime styles and reavers main stat is str...

With the diversity of classes that is basically how the game is already balanced.. And just because some classes may benefit from having certain utility combined together doesn't mean that class is overall overpowered if a different class has the same utility...

You could say all tanks are quite underpowered because they only bring a body to beat on but they have their role.

This would also allow GMs to show class balance with numbers to validate changes they make