The dps Warden

Started 17 Jan 2021
by Nephamael
in Suggestions
https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/suggestions/27764-changes-to-scout-melee

Has been giving me a great idea for an alternative approach on buffing melee warden without touching Healwarden (8v8) and maybe even make this a viable alternative spec for 8v8.

Instead of upping dmg table by 2 (like pally and friar had it done for them) we could upp growthrates in the higher weapon specs a support Warden can never reach.

It is extremely hard to hit 1h styles thru enemy defense, as 1h does not give any defense penetration vs parry, block or evade. So upping follow up styles growthrates is a very good way to upp dmg vs no defense targets like casters or supports, while upping after defense reactionaries to help vs enemies with defense.

here it comes:
--------------------------------
Blunt:

blunt is not a spec of choice for heal warden as the sidestyle 2 style followup is 21 points deep so upping low lvl blunt styles doesn't bring any harm (all healwardens spec 10 blade for 1 style sidesnare).

Force of Might is a completely unused useless anytimer with a lower growthrate than taunt and can become a followup for taunt instead.


Anytime:

Slam (8 blunt) growthrate 0.59, +15 offense -5 defense
New Followup Force of Might (18 blunt) growthrate 1.29 +10 offense +0 defense, effect 5 bleed for 30 sec


After Parry:

Stunning Blow (39 Blunt) growthrate 1.20, effect and bonus unchanged
Followup Devastating Blow (50 blunt) growthrate 1.44, effect and bonus unchanged


After Block: (4 style chain at max 5-10% blockrate without shieldspec)

Bruiser (4 blunt) growthrate 1.20, +15 offense +5 defense, effect unchanged
Followup1 Impact (12 blunt) growthrate 1.44, +10 offense +5 defense, effect unchanged
Followup2 Windfall (15 blunt) growthrate 1.49, , bonus unchanged, 34% haste debuff
Followup3 Bone Crusher (29 blunt) growthrate 1.49, +15 offense +5 defense, effect unchanged


Backstyle:

Back Crush (25 blunt) growthrate 1.1 bonuses unchanged, no effect as before or 12s 60% snare
Followup Crushing Blow (44 blunt) growthrate: 1.29, bonuses unchanged, 9 bleed 40 sec


Sidestyle: (3 style chain)

Side Bash (10 blunt) growthrate 0.9, bonuses and effect unchanged
Followup1 Unstoppable Force (21 blunt) growthrate 1.29, bonuses unchanged, 27s 60% snare (to match other 2 style snares)
Followup2 Mauler (34 blunt) growthrate 1.44, bonuses unchanged, 34% haste debuff


-----------------------------------------

Blade:

Anytimer:

Fire Blade (18 blade) growthrate 0.59 +15 offense -5 defense no effect as before
Spectrum Blade (39 blade) growthrate 1.29 bonuses and effect unchanged


After Parry: (3 style chain)

Return Blade (4 blade) growthrate 1.20, bonus and effect unchanged
Followup1 Lunging Blade (12 blade) growthrate 1.29, bonuses and effect unchanged
Followup2 Kinetic Blade (25 blade) growthrate 1.49, +15 offense +5 defense, 34% haste debuff


After Block: (3 style chain)

Horizon Blade (21 blade) growthrate 1.20, +15 offense +5 defense, effect unchanged
Followup1 Dancing Blade (29 blade) growthrate 1.44, bonus and effect unchanged
Followup2 Horizon Blade (44 blade) growthrate 1.49, bonus unchanged, 34% haste debuff


Backstyle:

Revenging Blade (34 blade) growthrate 1.1, bonuses unchanged, 30% haste debuff
Followup Brilliant Blade (50 blade) growthrate 1.35, bonus unchanged, 9bleed 40 sec


Sidestyle:

Glowing Blade (10 blade) growthrate 0.9, bonuses and effect unchanged
Followup Auroric Blade (15 blade) growthrate 1.21, bonuses and effect unchanged
Sun 17 Jan 2021 7:44 PM by Nephamael
This is the mirror idea for Scout from the other threat:


I came up with a new idea actually.

Scout is in an almost unique problem spot.

Being 1h+shield for his melee.

There is only one class in a similar weak spot, thats warden with 1h and even no shieldspec.

We could look at this problem from the forced to 1h perspective more general.

Here are 2 ways to fix both classes easy:
--------------------------------------------------
1) growth rates
a medium anytimer opening with a high growthrate followup (like vamp had it)

Tranquilize +Wyvernfang could be changed for scout, as a bow scout will never use this style combo (requires 44 thrust) or has to give up shield for it (also a cool playstyle, pure glass cannon shoot and finish with dps in melee instead of kite or defense grind) and for the same reason Dragonfang could become a Beartooth followup.

I propose Trangquilize (18 thrust) to be a 0.59 growthrate opener with +15 offensive -5 defense and
Wyvernfang (44 thrust) to be a 1.44 growthrate followup with +10 offense +0 defense.

It is very hard for a 1h to get any followup into enemy defense (1h has no defense penetration vs parry evade or shield).

The after evade and after block for scout could be adjusted like this to match savage (low weaponskill class).

After block Beartooth (15 thrust) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 21 haste debuff
Followup Dragonfang (50 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect 9 bleeding 40 sec


Wolftooth (10 thrust) after evade growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 60% slow 12s (old effect)
Followup Liontooth (34 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Ricochet (25 thrust, after enemy block) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +0 defense, effect: 5 bleeding 30s (old effect)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
slash:

Anytime Combo
Amethyst Slash (29 slash) growthrate 0.60 +20 offense +0 defense (unchanged)
Followup Diamond Slash (50 slash) growthrate 1.44 +20 offense +0 defense

After block Riposte (18 slash) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +10 defense, effect: 5 bleed for 20s
Followup Befuddler (34 slash) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Those are the big needed changes for being competitive. They would give scout some punch against supports or casters without defense and help his dps via reactionaries against enemies with defense.
----------------------------------------------------

Of course it would make sense to upp the positionals growthrates wise too, to not make them useless (also oriented on savage growthrates):

thrust:
Pierce (29 thrust) backstyle, growthrate 1.21 effect and bonus as before
Basiliskfang (39 thrust) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21, effect and bonus as before

slash:
Back Slash (39 slash) backstyle, growthrate 1.25 (no effect as before)
Cross Slash (4 slash) sidestyle, growthrate 0.9 (no effect as before)
Followup Bloodletter (10 slash) growthrate 1.1, same effect as before
Side Slicer (21 Slash) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21 same effect as before

anytime followup Saphire Slash (44 slash) growthrate 1.44, effect and bonuses as before

----------------------------------------------------------
This could be done in the same way for Warden, mostly not touching the low lvl styles, to not make heal wardens suddenly deal dmg (like bow shield scouts) but upping the higher lvl anytimer combos, reactionaries and positionals.


2) Another more simple approach would be to simply upp Warden and Scout melee dmg tables by 2 - this would work on the chance to hit thru defense instead of working on the dps.
Tue 19 Jan 2021 3:20 PM by soremir
I'm not going to read the whole thing, but the general principle of upping the Growth Rate on their high-spec styles makes a lot of sense.
Tue 19 Jan 2021 7:55 PM by Tulpa
1000 times this... GOOD IDEA!!!! small man melee warden with bubble would be fun.
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:25 AM by inoeth
if one day the warden becomes viable again, i would def rejoin this class! atm its just a boring single target healer ;(
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:45 AM by Sepplord
inoeth wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 10:25 AM
if one day the warden becomes viable again, i would def rejoin this class! atm its just a boring single target healer ;(

A very viable boring single target healer though
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:43 PM by Nephamael
A very viable boring single target healer though

Not rly, the arena tests have shown it merciless.

With the celerity buff now Alb and Mid gonna be viable for 8v8 while Hib can at best be B-tier.

- But nevertheless what i ask for will not touch heal wardens anyway. Just give the option to run a det9 nurt/weapon warden that might actually be fun to play in 8v8 too.
Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:18 PM by inoeth
Nephamael wrote:
Wed 20 Jan 2021 4:43 PM
A very viable boring single target healer though

Not rly, the arena tests have shown it merciless.

With the celerity buff now Alb and Mid gonna be viable for 8v8 while Hib can at best be B-tier.

- But nevertheless what i ask for will not touch heal wardens anyway. Just give the option to run a det9 nurt/weapon warden that might actually be fun to play in 8v8 too.

so wardens are not only boring but also gimp? well...
albion got celerity hmn did i miss something?

im also not asking for a heal warden change, just make melee warden viable in some way
Wed 20 Jan 2021 8:59 PM by Sepplord
He is saying that Albion was strongest in the Event, and Midgard will be viable with cele...
Not that Albion got cele

That said, i doubt that the strongest meleegroup is suddenly B- Tier...and especially not that the reason they were the strongest before, aka wardens, are suddenly bad because of a single event not dominating.
Further (but only hearsay) the setup that destroyed Düring the event was an alb hybrid, not a tanker.

Also regarding the Event, were the really good people on their usual chars?
Thu 21 Jan 2021 3:07 AM by Nephamael
That said, i doubt that the strongest meleegroup is suddenly B- Tier

The strongest melee group is Alb tanker theurg.

The 2nd strongest melee group is now Mid tanker supp rm. (if 1500 range cele stays)
Thu 21 Jan 2021 4:01 AM by Nephamael
Slam (8 blunt) growthrate 0.59, +15 offense -5 defense
New Followup Force of Might (18 blunt) growthrate 1.29 +10 offense +0 defense, effect 5 bleed for 30 sec

An idea that came to my mind was to move the new followup Force of Might to 39 blunt or 44 to make it equally hard to get as the 39 blade followup and prevent some kind of an anytimer combo spam nurt+heal+blunt warden.

As Force of Might is a completely unused style noone will have any objection to simply moving it to 39 blunt and not change any other styles lvl.
This topic is locked and you can't reply.

Return to Suggestions or the latest topics