Changes to scout melee - Phoenix Freeshard

Ive been trying out different things on scout for some time now, and have reached a conclusion that i think is very reasonable. Custom change to scout melee (ex for thrust). The main reason im asking for this comes with the complete change to the snares duration/endo usage, which was their answer to the scout lacking something in the fist place.

EDIT: The purposed current styles could move up in the weapon line, to make it a requirement to have a more melee oriented spec.

1. Anytimer -- The current anytimer [Puncture] .32 GR , bleed 3 for 20sec.

Change to -- .80 GR (or somewhere near) , bleed equivalent or higher.

2. Anytimer followups -- [Bloody Dance] .67 GR , -5 def bonus , bleed 4 for 25 [Lunge] .70 GR, low hit bonus

Change to -- .90GR , bleed 5 for 25, add low def bonus
Change to -- 1.00 GR , bleed 7 for 20, add low def bonus

3. Block reactionary -- The current [Beartooth] .90 GR , 6 sec stun.

Change to -- Bleed for 9 over 40, keep GR. add low defense bonus

(the base idea is a change to those styles, even others, purposed changes are an example )

As it currently stands, scout is the least viable option in melee in all specs, and also compared to melee specs of the other archers. I do believe this would bring the viability more in line with the others. The idea of defense bonus addition to styles relates to having shield spec.

Please dont use your opinion on realm, ranged damage, recent changes to ranged damage, population, scout "snare/root" (which is merely an esacpe tool after endo nerf/duration) etc as a way to say a buffs/nerfs arent warranted, etc, to derail this topic.

If you truly have any meaningful opinions as to why this isnt a good idea, id like to hear them.

12/13 Edit - The more i look at what ive wrote, and with some opinions of others i really think the best option is to add a new anytime at 29 thrust, with a decent followup at maybe 34.
I would like to see the block reactionary Beartooth changed from stun to a bleed. Bleed and ASR added to slash at equal levels.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 8:43 PM by Noashakra

increase the damage table melee by one too.
I don't know if it's too much with what you asked.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 8:46 PM by Kwall0311

I didnt want to come off too strong. Anything is better than nothing! Its really struggling right now. And with the changes to the snare/ranged , their initial idea is out of the window imo.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:11 PM by DJ2000

This is what the Pierce Scout has currently to work with:
After Block
->15
- Beartooth / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 6sec

After Enemy Block
-> 25
- Ricochet / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Bleeding, 5 , 30sec

After Evade
-> 4 -> 10 -> 34
- Ratfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 2sec
-- Wolftooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.92 / Endu 10 ///
--- Liontooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.85 / Endu 05 /// Bleeding,9 , 40sec

-> 50
- Dragonfang / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 ///

Positional: Back
-> 29
- Pierce / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -10 / Growth Rate 0.76 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 6 , 35sec

Positional: Side
-> 39
- Basiliskfang / To Hit Bonus 5 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.80 / Endurance 10 ///

Anytimer
-> 6 -> 12 or 21
- Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.32 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 3 , 20sec
-- Bloody Dance / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.67 / Endu 10 ///
-- Lunge / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.70 / Endu 10 ///

-> 18 -> 44
- Tranquillize / To Hit Bonus 00 / Defense Bonus 10 / Growth Rate 0.00 / Endu 10 /// Detaunt
-- Wyvernfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Slow(Snare), 60%, 27sec

Proposed changes:
1. Anytimer -- The current anytimer [Puncture] .32 GR , bleed 3 for 20sec.
Change to -- .80 GR (or somewhere near) , bleed equivalent or higher.
-> MY take on this:
Its a lvl 6 Style, so it suffers like all other lvl6 ones from poor GR and high endu costs. Yes, i do understand that scouts dont put much into this line and a low lvl Style with some decent "stats" would help them out, but if anything a 0,59 Gr is the max i could agree on; and even then i would prolly take away the bleed.

2. Anytimer followups -- [Bloody Dance] .67 GR , -5 def bonus , bleed 4 for 25 [Lunge] .70 GR, low hit bonus
Change to -- .90GR , bleed 5 for 25, add low def bonus
Change to -- 1.00 GR , bleed 7 for 20, add low def bonus
-> MY take on this:
Continuation of a lowWeap Scout option idea with your changes that seems a tad bit to high for the actual lvl of these Styles.
While i could get behind Lunge (21) with high GR and already high ToHit Bonus, i cant agree with the bleeding stack, so again, i would get rid of it.
Bloody Dance i on the other hand want to add a bleed7.20sec effect on, while only slightly increasing GR to 0,70 as long as the -05 Def Bomus exists, otherwise get rid of the malus and remain at current GR.

3. Block reactionary -- The current [Beartooth] .90 GR , 6 sec stun.
Change to -- Bleed for 9 over 40, keep GR. add low defense bonus
-> MY take on this:
This change makes only sense when combined with a shield skill for a Scout, which obv. is the "Main" spec for this class. At first i thought you want to actually swing this meta around by offering tradeoffs for lowering the shield spec, but as far as i can tell, you basically just want to make use of the "relative" high shield spec, that every scout has anyway, to Bleed stack on this class., without investing too much points into the weapon. Other words, you dont "really" want a change of playstyle, just doubling down on the current one.

I may not agree fully with your suggestion, which does not devalue your opinion/suggestion, what i will agree on with you is this:
The "current state" is even below than just underwhelming. it needs desperately a change.

The Line needs ASR, more "offensive" styles with -XX Def bonus as a tradeoff (Blockrate) for better GR/effects. Something you actually want to stand and Fight for/with, instead of immediately running away.
The SnareAnytimerFollowUp exists, so when just comparing it as an escape tool vs Shield Style Stop it seems fine on paper... but putting it behind the detaunt (to much Def Focus) and even anything leading up to it offers basically nothing to invest a bunch of points for this lvl44 Style. Points that will be better spent in the shield line currently.
So the Snare Style has to be at lower levels to make it more accessible. Additionally Introduce afterEnemyEvade and -Parry next to the -Block with high GR and to-hit Bonus.
Basically a complete Style revamp.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:20 PM by Kwall0311

The main thing i didnt mention is my ideas for the anytime changes arent to make a low melee spec viable. The spec ive been working with for a while now is 39 thrust 40 bow.

I would even say move them up to a higher spec , maybe around 29 like amethyst slash . There is an ASR on the 39 side style which is nice.

The snare style has been completely changed , and with the lowering of bow damage we are back at square one. I remember they mentioned they didnt want to increase melee damage, but really what else is there besides making the styles worthwhile for the spec.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:31 PM by gotwqqd

I’d like to see some reactionary shield block DAMAGE styles in the shield line for scouts. It’s there signature archer ability. 2-3 styles sub 42. 2 styles post 42

Fri 11 Dec 2020 10:46 PM by Kwall0311

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:31 PM
I’d like to see some reactionary shield block DAMAGE styles in the shield line for scouts. It’s there signature archer ability. 2-3 styles sub 42. 2 styles post 42

The only problem with this is that it seems it would be a no brainer to spec 50 bow high shield, or vice versa, and it wouldnt be fair to the other archers and they having to drop bow to get melee damage. Opening up better melee styles to bring them in line with the other two archers, while having around the same bow spec makes more sense imo. The block chance and slam should be enough, kinda like a merc or BM going 42 shield just for slam itself, if they had the melee to back it up.

Fri 11 Dec 2020 11:59 PM by Kyuss25

Also believe the scout could do with a slight melee skill improvement when speccing more than 30 in weapon.
But also the slash line should be looked at, as it is really missing a useful bleed style and ASR.

Sat 12 Dec 2020 6:23 PM by Nephamael

Imo thrust line works fine for minst/pally/arms - so i suggest different changes for Scouts - i tried solo scout for a bit and at the current state of the game it's a pretty unplayable class because

#1 vs bow scout people can just run away and won't die

#2 melee scout is 2 weak to beat anything - if you blow purge2 and ip3 you still lose vs any assassin and they have 70% life left.- ofc they are kind of a hardcounter but it we don't plan on bringing visible solos back to Phoenix we must work on balancing assassins vs ranger/hunter/scout if those 6 classes are the only viable solos left (for all but low pop times).

So i suggest upping melee skills of scout/hunter/ranger is the right approach but it would have to happen in a well balanced way -

For one we could upp the evade of all 3 classes - evade IV would be something, at least for ranger and hunter.

Another idea is to give Hunters str/c selfbuff instead of the useless str/c pet buff, which is only viable for coast guarding hunters or make the str/c petbuff autocast on pet summon or instant.
For scouts it is rly the most difficult thing to balance their melee skills - they are 1h/shield and that's the weakest setup vs dual wield, so they could be strong vs hunters but remain weak vs assassins and rangers - we could give Scouts 2h specline or a selfbuff specline or put selfbuffs in the 1h line to make it stronger for melee than for bow scouts and that way avoid touching the zerg scout balance 2 much.

Here is how it could work: slash gives selfbuff dmgadd, str/c and specaf // thrust gives selfbuff dmgadd d/q and specaf - if you want to make it more unique you could give them base str and base dex in the respective lines instead of dmgadd.

Sat 12 Dec 2020 6:57 PM by Tashkent

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sat 12 Dec 2020 6:23 PM
...
For scouts it is rly the most difficult thing to balance their melee skills - they are 1h/shield and that's the weakest setup vs dual wield, so they could be strong vs hunters but remain weak vs assassins and rangers

Totally agree, really difficult to balance the 3 archers. I like the idea of evade IV for ranger/hunter, inst str/con for pet and buffs in scout weapon lines.

Sat 12 Dec 2020 7:01 PM by Kwall0311

I think the self buffs in melee line would make sense too , but really have to take a look at how poorly the anytimers and reactionaries are. I feel like thats a fix, without causing problems from the infamous archery adding problem. More melee archers means less ranged adders. Win win

Sat 12 Dec 2020 7:09 PM by gromet12

Just remove the DW defense penetration bonus on Sins only and have the debuffs follow the same rule for champ buffs. WS/Con is a buff that shouldn’t be in this rule set and comes from a buffbot, %dmg, %style world when melee classes could also get 10% WS procs. None of that exist here

Sun 13 Dec 2020 2:30 AM by Hodge

Why not give scout a separate spell line to spec in like the other two archers? Right now ranger needs to train across one more line than the others and all three have a multiplier of 2.

Ranger (weap/cd/pf/bow/stealth)
Hunter (weap/bc/bow/stealth)
Scout (weap/shield/bow/stealth)

Never understood why rangers got stuck with an extra line to train for the same multiplier. Is it since cd is better than 2h or shield?

Sun 13 Dec 2020 2:52 PM by DJ2000

Stay on Topic. No additional spec line, no additional skillpoints or anything in that matter.

Lets just assume there would be a way to "fix" this issue.
What Build would a Scout then have? What would/should it look like?

Archery 45
Shield 45
Stealth 35 +/+
Weapon 26
?

Unless stuff on the same level of "stop" is added into the Melee Lines, i see no way to drop Shield (or Bow) any lower.
Balance is delicate. Just look at Rangers/Hunters. Its either 90% are Melee or 90% are Sniper, there is almost no middle ground.
The same would happen with the Scout, there is no way to achieve "perfect Balance".

Sun 13 Dec 2020 4:18 PM by Kwall0311

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 2:52 PM
Lets just assume there would be a way to "fix" this issue.
What Build would a Scout then have? What would/should it look like?

Archery 45
Shield 45
Stealth 35 +/+
Weapon 26

45 bow would be pretty high for a hybrid spec imo, i still dont think there would be much return in melee. I think you would have to sacrifice some bow, or even the shield snare escape until higher ranks. Sort of like some other classes who can open more styles by dropping more stl/env, etc.

The more i look at what ive wrote, and with some opinions of others i really think the best option is to add a new anytime at 29 thrust, with a decent followup at maybe 34.
I would like to see the block reactionary Beartooth changed from stun to a bleed. Bleed and ASR added to slash at equal levels.

I know its pretty much asking for a style overhaul, But i think its actually warranted because of how bad it is. The current state of the Stop style is not enough post nerf.

Sun 13 Dec 2020 4:34 PM by gotwqqd

Let’s use RR 6 compare Hunter
34Spear
45Archery
34Stealth
40BC

Scout same bow stealth; shield 45 and 27 weapon
Nowhere near as versatile or adept
Not sure if he could spec 34 weapon would make them comparable

Sun 13 Dec 2020 4:44 PM by Tashkent

With 45 archery you don't really want to discuss melee capabilities, do you?

Sun 13 Dec 2020 7:30 PM by DJ2000

Tashkent wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 4:44 PM
With 45 archery you don't really want to discuss melee capabilities, do you?

That is exactly the Point.
Melee changes to simply push every scout even further into high bow/high shield is not what i would go for, i would rather do changes to flip the scout Meta.

Archery would have to drop to 34/35 for the Weap line to go up to "reasonable" levels. And that will not happen by dropping the Shield.
A Melee Line that makes it worth it to fight Melee. Something which the Scout would be "fine" with to switch to Melee after opening with a Bow.
Stealth 34-39
Archery 35
Weapon 34-39
Shield 45
This would be a Hybrid Build that the "changes" should promote, imho. (29-39 Style Range)

But this also would bring the question: Why carter the "good" peaces of a Weapon line into that very specific cookie-cutter Build for the Scout?
What about above that style range, and what about below that style range?

Mon 14 Dec 2020 1:04 AM by boridi

If you want to kill other classes in melee, dont play an archer.

Edit: To add something useful, Sioned is a close fight for me on my SB if he has IP/purge up and he seems to be a "melee" scout.

Mon 14 Dec 2020 12:24 PM by Hedien

Scout are in such a position that most classes would do either:
- Avoid fight because assured death.
- Avoid fight because boring long fight.

I would say, remove the stop style and boost melee dmg yes.
But if you maintain stop style, god no more boost needed.

Sat/Faturday.

Sat 16 Jan 2021 11:27 PM by Kwall0311

+1

Sun 17 Jan 2021 1:33 AM by borodino1812

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 4:34 PM
Let’s use RR 6 compare Hunter
34Spear
45Archery
34Stealth
40BC

Scout same bow stealth; shield 45 and 27 weapon
Nowhere near as versatile or adept
Not sure if he could spec 34 weapon would make them comparable

This is not an entirely fair comparison . It neglects the advantages the scout has over the hunter when it comes to range and bow speed.

I think your post should reflect that.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 6:22 PM by Nephamael

I came up with a new idea actually.

Scout is in an almost unique problem spot.

Being 1h+shield for his melee.

There is only one class in a similar weak spot, thats warden with 1h and even no shieldspec.

We could look at this problem from the forced to 1h perspective more general.

Here are 2 ways to fix both classes easy:
--------------------------------------------------
1) growth rates
a medium anytimer opening with a high growthrate followup (like vamp had it)

Tranquilize +Wyvernfang could be changed for scout, as a bow scout will never use this style combo (requires 44 thrust) or has to give up shield for it (also a cool playstyle, pure glass cannon shoot and finish with dps in melee instead of kite or defense grind) and for the same reason Dragonfang could become a Beartooth followup.

I propose Trangquilize (18 thrust) to be a 0.59 growthrate opener with +15 offensive -5 defense and
Wyvernfang (44 thrust) to be a 1.44 growthrate followup with +10 offense +0 defense.

It is very hard for a 1h to get any followup into enemy defense (1h has no defense penetration vs parry evade or shield).

The after evade and after block for scout could be adjusted like this to match savage (low weaponskill class).

After block Beartooth (15 thrust) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 21 haste debuff
Followup Dragonfang (50 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect 9 bleeding 40 sec

Wolftooth (10 thrust) after evade growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 60% slow 12s (old effect)
Followup Liontooth (34 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Ricochet (25 thrust, after enemy block) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +0 defense, effect: 5 bleeding 30s (old effect)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
slash:

Anytime Combo
Amethyst Slash (29 slash) growthrate 0.60 +20 offense +0 defense (unchanged)
Followup Diamond Slash (50 slash) growthrate 1.44 +20 offense +0 defense

After block Riposte (18 slash) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +10 defense, effect: 5 bleed for 20s
Followup Befuddler (34 slash) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Those are the big needed changes for being competitive. They would give scout some punch against supports or casters without defense and help his dps via reactionaries against enemies with defense.
----------------------------------------------------

Of course it would make sense to upp the positionals growthrates wise too, to not make them useless (also oriented on savage growthrates):

thrust:
Pierce (29 thrust) backstyle, growthrate 1.21 effect and bonus as before
Basiliskfang (39 thrust) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21, effect and bonus as before

slash:
Back Slash (39 slash) backstyle, growthrate 1.25 (no effect as before)
Cross Slash (4 slash) sidestyle, growthrate 0.9 (no effect as before)
Followup Bloodletter (10 slash) growthrate 1.1, same effect as before
Side Slicer (21 Slash) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21 same effect as before

anytime followup Saphire Slash (44 slash) growthrate 1.44, effect and bonuses as before

----------------------------------------------------------
This could be done in the same way for Warden, mostly not touching the low lvl styles, to not make heal wardens suddenly deal dmg (like bow shield scouts) but upping the higher lvl anytimer combos, reactionaries and positionals.

2) Another more simple approach would be to simply upp Warden and Scout melee dmg tables by 2 - this would work on the chance to hit thru defense instead of working on the dps.

Sun 17 Jan 2021 7:00 PM by Kwall0311

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Jan 2021 6:22 PM
Here are 2 ways to fix both classes easy:
--------------------------------------------------
1) growth rates
a medium anytimer opening with a high growthrate followup (like vamp had it)

Tranquilize +Wyvernfang could be changed for scout, as a bow scout will never use this style combo (requires 44 thrust) or has to give up shield for it (also a cool playstyle, pure glass cannon shoot and finish with dps in melee instead of kite or defense grind) and for the same reason Dragonfang could become a Beartooth followup.

I propose Trangquilize (18 thrust) to be a 0.59 growthrate opener with +15 offensive -5 defense and
Wyvernfang (44 thrust) to be a 1.44 growthrate followup with +10 offense +0 defense.

It is very hard for a 1h to get any followup into enemy defense (1h has no defense penetration vs parry evade or shield).

The after evade and after block for scout could be adjusted like this to match savage (low weaponskill class).

After block Beartooth (15 thrust) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 21 haste debuff
Followup Dragonfang (50 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect 9 bleeding 40 sec

Wolftooth (10 thrust) after evade growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 60% slow 12s (old effect)
Followup Liontooth (34 thrust) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Ricochet (25 thrust, after enemy block) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +0 defense, effect: 5 bleeding 30s (old effect)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
slash:

Anytime Combo
Amethyst Slash (29 slash) growthrate 0.60 +20 offense +0 defense (unchanged)
Followup Diamond Slash (50 slash) growthrate 1.44 +20 offense +0 defense

After block Riposte (18 slash) growthrate 1.20 +15 offense +10 defense, effect: 5 bleed for 20s
Followup Befuddler (34 slash) growthrate 1.49 +15 offense +5 defense, effect: 34% haste debuff

Those are the big needed changes for being competitive. They would give scout some punch against supports or casters without defense and help his dps via reactionaries against enemies with defense.
----------------------------------------------------

Of course it would make sense to upp the positionals growthrates wise too, to not make them useless (also oriented on savage growthrates):

thrust:
Pierce (29 thrust) backstyle, growthrate 1.21 effect and bonus as before
Basiliskfang (39 thrust) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21, effect and bonus as before

slash:
Back Slash (39 slash) backstyle, growthrate 1.25 (no effect as before)
Cross Slash (4 slash) sidestyle, growthrate 0.9 (no effect as before)
Followup Bloodletter (10 slash) growthrate 1.1, same effect as before
Side Slicer (21 Slash) sidestyle, growthrate 1.21 same effect as before

anytime followup Saphire Slash (44 slash) growthrate 1.44, effect and bonuses as before

----------------------------------------------------------
This could be done in the same way for Warden, mostly not touching the low lvl styles, to not make heal wardens suddenly deal dmg (like bow shield scouts) but upping the higher lvl anytimer combos, reactionaries and positionals.

2) Another more simple approach would be to simply upp Warden and Scout melee dmg tables by 2 - this would work on the chance to hit thru defense instead of working on the dps.

It makes a lot of sense to me. Gives scouts another option. People still think the root is a viable way to play, post duration/endo nerf as well as bow damage/crit nerf.

These purposed melee changes also have no affect in zerg play, which adds to it being a viable fix as well without disrupting anything.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 12:38 PM by Centenario

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:11 PM
This is what the Pierce Scout has currently to work with:

After Block
->15
- Beartooth / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 6sec

After Enemy Block
-> 25
- Ricochet / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Bleeding, 5 , 30sec

After Evade
-> 4 -> 10 -> 34
- Ratfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 2sec
-- Wolftooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.92 / Endu 10 ///
--- Liontooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.85 / Endu 05 /// Bleeding,9 , 40sec

-> 50
- Dragonfang / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 ///

Positional: Back
-> 29
- Pierce / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -10 / Growth Rate 0.76 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 6 , 35sec

Positional: Side
-> 39
- Basiliskfang / To Hit Bonus 5 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.80 / Endurance 10 ///

Anytimer
8
- Sting / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus -15 / Growth Rate 0.59 / Endu 15 /// Taunt

-> 6 -> 12 or 21
- Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.32 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 3 , 20sec
-- Bloody Dance / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.67 / Endu 10 ///
-- Lunge / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.70 / Endu 10 ///

-> 18 -> 44
- Tranquillize / To Hit Bonus 00 / Defense Bonus 10 / Growth Rate 0.00 / Endu 10 /// Detaunt
-- Wyvernfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Slow(Snare), 60%, 27sec

Proposed changes:
1. Anytimer -- The current anytimer [Puncture] .32 GR , bleed 3 for 20sec.
Change to -- .80 GR (or somewhere near) , bleed equivalent or higher.
-> MY take on this:
Its a lvl 6 Style, so it suffers like all other lvl6 ones from poor GR and high endu costs. Yes, i do understand that scouts dont put much into this line and a low lvl Style with some decent "stats" would help them out, but if anything a 0,59 Gr is the max i could agree on; and even then i would prolly take away the bleed.
0.59 is the growth of the taunt style, which has a handicap of -15 defense bonus. This mean you'd make this taunt style a lot inferior to Puncture, when you don't need to taunt:
If we compare to Sword on Midgard: The taunt style is the same with 10 endo cost instead of 15, and 0.59 growth too. but their anytimer has 0.39 growth for 10 endo cost followed by a 10 endo cost, 10 hit bonus, 0.66 growth style. so no defense malus, and a snare component.
I'd see something more fair for the puncture chain to become:
- Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.39 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 5 , 20sec
-- Bloody Dance / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.66 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding 10, 20sec
-- Lunge / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.70 / Endu 10 /// See Below
New Lunge Anytimer Lunge / To Hit Bonus 05 / Defense Bonus -5 / Growth Rate 0.48 / Endu 15 /// No Effect the equivalent of 18 Blade Style.
Or New Alternative Lunge Follow up Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.71 / Endo 10 /// No effect So an alternative to bleed for 0.05 more growth instead of 10 bleed, the exact copy of 18 piercing style.
I frankly don't see the appeal of bleed with very low value, when most fight end so fast that the bleed cannot either stack or be fully used.

2. Anytimer followups -- [Bloody Dance] .67 GR , -5 def bonus , bleed 4 for 25 [Lunge] .70 GR, low hit bonus
Change to -- .90GR , bleed 5 for 25, add low def bonus
Change to -- 1.00 GR , bleed 7 for 20, add low def bonus
-> MY take on this:
Continuation of a lowWeap Scout option idea with your changes that seems a tad bit to high for the actual lvl of these Styles.
While i could get behind Lunge (21) with high GR and already high ToHit Bonus, i cant agree with the bleeding stack, so again, i would get rid of it.
Bloody Dance i on the other hand want to add a bleed7.20sec effect on, while only slightly increasing GR to 0,70 as long as the -05 Def Bomus exists, otherwise get rid of the malus and remain at current GR.

See my comments in color in the quote.
Also I would like to add:
Going above 50 composite basic weapon line on alb is a waste of points, so at max 10L the scout should have +20 weapon so most of his weapon style tool kit should be earned at 30 weapon line.
Going above 30 should help when low RR, to catch up, with additional bonuses taking into account low RR - > more hit bonus, more growth rate, more bleed, but basically they should be better versions of below 30 styles, just until you can bring down your weapon line.
If we have a look at Celtic Dual 39 anytimer follow-up:
hit 05 / def 05 / endo 10 / growth 0.81 /// no effect
This is the equivalent of melee scout for ranger
So at 35-39 in weapon, the scout should have access to a follow-up anytimer after puncture, with similar values as this.

I propose this:
Anytimer:
6 Puncture hit 10 / def 0 / endo 10 / growth 0.39 /// 5 bleed 20sec
-18 Bloody Dance hit 15 / def 0 / endo 10 / growth 0.66 /// 10 bleed 20sec
21 Lunge hit 10 / def 00 / endo 10 / growth 0.44
-37 Duck hit 10 / def 15 / endo 10 / growth 0.71

If you go low weapon spec, you get puncture, with no defense bonus, low growth, and low usefulness bleed.
If you go higher to 18, you can start stacking bleed, have more hit bonus.
If you go even higher, you can get access to better anytimer growth, with same hit chance, without the bleed stacking.
If you go even higher, (composite 50 at RR3) You then can make up for the def malus with the 2-part chain with higher growth, no bleed, but high defense bonus, to set you up for an after evade or an after block thanks to high defense bonus. Chose to keep a 10 hit bonus for this style since its a follow-up on a 1h build.
For the Lunge style I hesitated between -05 def bonus (for RP since the player is Lunging at the enemy), but a 0.05 growth for the loss of bleed and a 0.05 def malus is not enough. So either keep 00 defense bonus for lunger to balance it vs Puncture and Sting (0.59 for -15 defense with taunt) or give it -05 defense bonus to keep the RP side of things, and give higher growth for no bleed and -05 defense should be a growth rate of 0.49 (+0.05 for each 05 defense malus; +0.05 for no bleed)

I could have a look at the whole skill tree and compare with other realms taking into account basic vs advanced, style level, effects, etc... but it would take a lot of time.
We first have to agree on the basics behind each decision.
What is a bleed value is it 0.05 growth for a first style and 0.025 for a 2-part chain?
What is a taunt value?
What is a snare value?
What is a style value above composite 50?
What is a style value diff between 34 and 39?
What is def bonus value on a 1-hand build?
What is a hit bonus value on a 1-hand build?
etc... etc...
Lots of things to take into account to have a basically fair system.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:06 PM by DJ2000

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 12:38 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Dec 2020 9:11 PM
Proposed changes:
1. Anytimer -- The current anytimer [Puncture] .32 GR , bleed 3 for 20sec.
Change to -- .80 GR (or somewhere near) , bleed equivalent or higher.
-> MY take on this:
Its a lvl 6 Style, so it suffers like all other lvl6 ones from poor GR and high endu costs. Yes, i do understand that scouts dont put much into this line and a low lvl Style with some decent "stats" would help them out, but if anything a 0,59 Gr is the max i could agree on; and even then i would prolly take away the bleed.

0.59 is the growth of the taunt style, which has a handicap of -15 defense bonus. This mean you'd make this taunt style a lot inferior to Puncture, when you don't need to taunt:
If we compare to Sword on Midgard: The taunt style is the same with 10 endo cost instead of 15, and 0.59 growth too. but their anytimer has 0.39 growth for 10 endo cost followed by a 10 endo cost, 10 hit bonus, 0.66 growth style. so no defense malus, and a snare component.
I'd see something more fair for the puncture chain to become:
- Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.39 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 5 , 20sec
-- Bloody Dance / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.66 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding 10, 20sec
-- Lunge / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.70 / Endu 10 /// See Below
New Lunge Anytimer Lunge / To Hit Bonus 05 / Defense Bonus -5 / Growth Rate 0.48 / Endu 15 /// No Effect the equivalent of 18 Blade Style.
Or New Alternative Lunge Follow up Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.71 / Endo 10 /// No effect So an alternative to bleed for 0.05 more growth instead of 10 bleed, the exact copy of 18 piercing style.
I frankly don't see the appeal of bleed with very low value, when most fight end so fast that the bleed cannot either stack or be fully used.

First: The Taunt style is not meant for RvR. Its a PvE Style. An old-fashioned one that probably needs a hard rework, but that's a whole another Topic.
Unless the Taunt Style has some borderline broken stats like the Friar's one, it shouldn't even be mentioned in relation to RvR.

I also don't see any appeal to the bleeding part of this. The Scout needs something to work/fight with.
He desperately needs ASR (Attack Speed Reduction) on one of his Styles.
The Melee Style changes would have fixed a lot, but that's out of question atm.

Most of these proposed changes are mostly to carter to the current High Bow/Shield Scout Meta, which i honestly can not support, even though the Scout should receive some ups to his Melee prowess. The changes should aim to shake the current Meta to make the Scout lower his Bow or Shield in favor of his Weapon (hybrid or pure melee). But none of the proposed changes actually want that. They just want low lvl Styles to fit the current build.

A Hybrid Build would need some stuff in the 29-34 Range, while a full melee build also needs stuff in the 39-50 Range to make it worthwhile for the Scout. You can't simply put all the "strength" in to the low lvl range from 6-21, that's not the way to go.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:18 PM by Centenario

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
First: The Taunt styles is not meant for RvR. Its a PvE Style. An old-fashioned one that probably needs a hard rework, but that's a whole another Topic.
Unless the Taunt Style has some borderline broken stats like the Friar's one, it shouldn't even be mentioned in relation to RvR.

I also don't see any appeal to the bleeding part of this. The Scout needs something to work/fight with.
He desperately needs ASR (Attack Speed Reduction) on one of his Styles.
The Melee Style changes would have fixed a lot, but that's out of question atm.

Most of these proposed changes are mostly to carter to the current High Bow/Shield Scout Meta, which i honestly can not support, even though the Scout should relieve some ups to his Melee prowess. The changes should aim to shake the current Meta to make the Scout lower his Bow or Shield in favor of his Weapon (hybrid or pure melee). But none of the proposed changes actually want that. They just want low lvl Styles to fit the current build.

A Hybrid Build would need some stuff in the 29-34 Range, while a full melee build also needs stuff in the 39-50 Range to make it worthwhile for the Scout. You can't simply put all the "strength" in to the low lvl range from 6-21, that's not the way to go.

The taunt style is used a lot in RvR, why not use a high hit bonus, high growth anytimer, when you are not getting hit in return, the defense malus is not impacting you.

Attack speed Reduction have to be tested. When you reduce attack speed, you increase the style damage of the opponent, cause they hit slower?

I'd also want to see a scout with an advanced weapon line. I have proposed before to give scout access to 2-hand or polearm.
At the moment, with just a basic weapon line and because it is Albion, it is not good to go higher than composite 50 on scout, you'd need to improve significantly the styles above 30lvl.

Maybe just give more points to scout and give them an advanced weapon line (2-handed/polearm) or give them more points, a buff line and access to dual wield, so they can choose between shield or dual wield.
These change would be best, but highly unlikely given how little change devs can make without getting democratic uproar.

Tue 19 Jan 2021 2:02 PM by Lollie

May as well let them shoot laser beams out of thier eyes as well

Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:01 PM by Kwall0311

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
Most of these proposed changes are mostly to carter to the current High Bow/Shield Scout Meta

This is not the intent of asking for this. The original post was simply going off of the current level styles, which yeah wouldnt make sense to reward low melee. And as you can see the posted edit from over a month ago, showing the main idea to complement higher melee spec with a decent anytimer/block reactionary.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 2:27 PM by DJ2000

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 4:01 PM
DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
Most of these proposed changes are mostly to carter to the current High Bow/Shield Scout Meta
... And as you can see the posted edit from over a month ago, showing the main idea to complement higher melee spec with a decent anytimer/block reactionary.

Yes, that is preferable and definitely something i can get behind.
I doubt they're going to touch any styles separately though, still a "big" Style update could use this as a general idea for reference.

Sun 24 Jan 2021 2:34 PM by boridi

Centenario wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Jan 2021 1:18 PM
I'd also want to see a scout with an advanced weapon line. I have proposed before to give scout access to 2-hand or polearm.
At the moment, with just a basic weapon line and because it is Albion, it is not good to go higher than composite 50 on scout, you'd need to improve significantly the styles above 30lvl.

Maybe just give more points to scout and give them an advanced weapon line (2-handed/polearm) or give them more points, a buff line and access to dual wield, so they can choose between shield or dual wield.
These change would be best, but highly unlikely given how little change devs can make without getting democratic uproar.

If you want shield and polearm... play an armsman

Sun 24 Jan 2021 3:30 PM by Kwall0311

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 24 Jan 2021 2:27 PM
Yes, that is preferable and definitely something i can get behind.
I doubt they're going to touch any styles separately though, still a "big" Style update could use this as a general idea for reference.

Well they gave scouts the Snare/Root, which was nice. Still is for escape purposes. But with the reduction of bow /crit damage, as well as increasing the endo useage and lowering the duration, its not a viable way to play.

Gruenschaff acknowledged that there was an issue with scouts, which was why the style was implemented in the first place. But to basically make it useless again without deciding to touch melee/defense really doesnt make sense to me. Would be nice to get an official answer if any other change would be considered.

I get that they had to tone down the ranged damage because of the issues with the zerg fights/assisting, but theres still room to make a melee spec viable without ruining the game.

Mon 8 Feb 2021 6:53 PM by Kwall0311

Bump for consideration, or an explanation

Gruenesschaf --- "Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease. "

https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/planned-changes/12060-new-scout-shield-style

This was your original idea. Its been twice nerfed since. So were back at square one. Can we consider other options now?

Sat 20 Feb 2021 2:31 PM by DJ2000

Let's assume we have a Melee Scout:
Stealth - 35+
Weapon - 50
Archery - 30+
Shield - 35

and a Hybrid Scout:
Stealth - 35+
Weapon - 34+
Archery - 35+
Shield - 45

With Kwall0311's edits/ideas as reference.
No change in damage table.

Pierce: (LvL 8 Taunt stays as is)

After Block
->15
- Beartooth / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Bleeding, 6, 35sec

-> 50
- Dragonfang / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 9sec

After Enemy Block
-> 25
- Ricochet / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Bleeding, 9, 40sec

After Evade
-> 4 -> 10
- Ratfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 /// Stun, 2sec
-- Wolftooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.95 / Endu 10 ///

Positional: Back
-> 39
- Pierce / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus -10 / Growth Rate 0.80 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 6 , 35sec

Positional: Side
-> 34
- Liontooth / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.85 / Endu 05 ///

Anytimer
-> 6 -> 12
- Puncture / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.32 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 3 , 20sec
-- Bloody Dance / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus -05 / Growth Rate 0.67 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 4 , 25sec

-> 18 -> 21
- Tranquillize / To Hit Bonus 00 / Defense Bonus 10 / Growth Rate 0.00 / Endu 10 /// Detaunt
-- Lunge / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.70 / Endu 10 /// Slow, 60%, 27sec

-> 29 -> 44
- Basiliskfang / To Hit Bonus 5 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.75 / Endurance 10 /// Haste Debuff, 34%, 20 sec
-- Wyvernfang / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.95 / Endu 5 ///

Slash: (LvL 8 Taunt stays as is)

After Block
->18 -> 34
- Riposte / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 10 / Growth Rate 0.91 / Endu 5 ///
-- Befuddler / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.88 / Endu 10 /// Stun, 5sec

After Evade
-> 44
- Sapphire Slash / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus -10 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 7 , 40sec

Positional: Back
-> 39
- Back Slash / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 05 / Growth Rate 0.85 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 4 , 25sec

Positional: Side
-> 4 -> 10
- Cross Slash / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.61 / Endu 10 ///
-- Bloodletter / To Hit Bonus 15 / Defense Bonus 10 / Growth Rate 0.50 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 5 , 30sec

-> 21
- Side Slicer / To Hit Bonus 05 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.60 / Endu 5 /// Slow, 60%, 12sec

Anytimer
-> 6 -> 15
- Uppercut / To Hit Bonus 5 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.35 / Endu 10 ///
-- Opal Slash / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.47 / Endu 10 /// Bleeding, 4 , 25sec

-> 25
- Cleave / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.90 / Endu 5 ///

-> 29 -> 50
- Amethyst Slash / To Hit Bonus 10 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.60 / Endu 10 /// Haste Debuff, 34%, 20 sec
-- Diamond Slash / To Hit Bonus 20 / Defense Bonus 00 / Growth Rate 0.95 / Endu 15 /// Bleeding, 8 , 45sec

Premise:
-Make it worthwhile to go for 50 weapon and drop bow and shield.
-Make hybrid approach (29+ weapon) still viable without giving it all tools at around 34 weapon.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 3:44 PM by Tommylad

If you want to play melee, roll a melee alt. Scouts are archers...drop bow????? No, reduce volley timer down to 30 secs same as Live. Archers on Phoenix have next to nothing when it comes to Archery and you even nerfed volley. While I say thanks to most of what the Devs do here, that nerf is worthy of a Mythic type nerf such as what they did to Smite clerics, which turned the class into buff bots, robbing Albion of a playable class. At least Live has given back to Smite Clerics some of their use so the Cleric is no longer just a buff bot. And for the Devs to say they wanted to discourage people playing Rangers ....well that was an extraordinary thing for them to say, and even as an Alb player, what they have done to Rangers is appalling.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 2:07 PM by Kwall0311

Tommylad wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 3:44 PM
If you want to play melee, roll a melee alt. Scouts are archers...drop bow????? No, reduce volley timer down to 30 secs same as Live.

The point of this is to make the scout more competitive when in a melee situation.

Being able to stack a bleed with a change to Beartooth , and a in improved anytimer in thrust line would go a long way.

If you have a valid suggestion as to why volley is good, make one. That has no place in this discussion.

Thu 13 May 2021 11:04 AM by DJ2000

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 12 May 2021 9:17 PM
...
It is conceivable that scout could at some point see some help in the melee department.
...

Fingers crossed

Thu 13 May 2021 2:20 PM by hachetay

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sun 13 Dec 2020 2:52 PM
Stay on Topic. No additional spec line, no additional skillpoints or anything in that matter.

Lets just assume there would be a way to "fix" this issue.
What Build would a Scout then have? What would/should it look like?

Archery 45
Shield 45
Stealth 35 +/+
Weapon 26
?

Unless stuff on the same level of "stop" is added into the Melee Lines, i see no way to drop Shield (or Bow) any lower.
Balance is delicate. Just look at Rangers/Hunters. Its either 90% are Melee or 90% are Sniper, there is almost no middle ground.
The same would happen with the Scout, there is no way to achieve "perfect Balance".

For 7L+ I would do
Archery 40
Shield 45
Stealth 33
Weapon 35

52 in weapon 50 in stealth you got stop and enough in bow to make decent dmg,

I currently run the spec 45 arch 45 shield stealth 35 et 26 weapon, I believe I won't loose that much in bow dmg going 40 ( between 2.5% and 5% looking at my tests).

And if going 52 composite made sense I believe it would be the spec to go. Right now it doesn't make sense.

Scouts are definitely the worst archers right now, a boost somewhere would definitely even out a little, if not bow why not melee dmg so at least we can finish a guy at 20% ...