What happened to tanks? - Phoenix Freeshard

I was very excited about coming back to DAoC. I quit a few months after SI was released. I was however disappointed to say the least to find out that the entirety of what people look for are pbae farming groups where healers heal a pet. It seems pets have replaced tanks. Hibernia seems to be the worse offender as not only can you do this with an ench but even more so with an animist. What reason would I have to make a tank besides it being an investment for end game rvr?

I feel like the current group meta really waters down the game and forces people into specific classes.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 7:43 PM by Harlff

Yeah the pet pull meta is real, but so far as an armsman I've had no trouble finding and building up groups, either pbae or just regular good old fashioned focus fire. Loot drops being so generous really helps you always be up to snuff in terms of survivability as well.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:13 PM by Calconious

IMO, that is an issue with Hibernia only. I'm leveling up a SM on mid and every group I have been in.. full pboae or not.. has had at least 1 tank to pull/organize the monsters and guard the casters/healers. Heck last night we had a Shadowblade doing it for the group. Not many SM's will spec summoning for the focus dmg shield so the focus pulling playstyle isn't as popular. Same for Alb.

The design of the hib classes and specs just favor the non tank playstyle that you are seeing. Enchanter mana spec has pbaoe and the focus dmg shield for the pet in the same spec... so almost all enchanters will level up with that playstyle in mind and groups end up following the same guidelines. Animist pbaoes through the pet... so by default the pet needs to stay alive and tank everything. Enchanter and Animist are the most popular classes on Hib and it's pretty much made the traditional Mid/Alb pbaoe playstyle with tanks pulling to grp obsolete.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:20 PM by SpoonyBard

Syclone wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 6:28 PM
I was very excited about coming back to DAoC. I quit a few months after SI was released. I was however disappointed to say the least to find out that the entirety of what people look for are pbae farming groups where healers heal a pet. It seems pets have replaced tanks. Hibernia seems to be the worse offender as not only can you do this with an ench but even more so with an animist. What reason would I have to make a tank besides it being an investment for end game rvr?

I feel like the current group meta really waters down the game and forces people into specific classes.

Paladin fits just nice in Alb for mass pulls. Yeah, it may be "more efficient" to do cabby or necro pulls, but what's the point if you're trading off fun. We had a Paladin, Reaver, Minstrel, Wizard, Cleric setup last night and went from 12-22 in 4-6 hours. Good fun and was more efficient than solo/duo. You don't have to maximize group efficiencies to reach the goal quickly.

Mon 21 Jan 2019 10:25 PM by Numatic

This is mostly an issue in Hib. I've literally heard of animists/enchanters leaving groups because the leader invited a melee character. Its downright absurd. I main a nightshade and have been soloing him since lvl 1 and in 44 now. I got in a group in my early 20's for a few levels and that was it. I know someone who was in several different groups where the leader would get a message from a BM, Ranger, NS, or tank and make fun of them in the group chat for simply being that character. Its childish but what can you do? The meta isnt going to change unless the devs change it.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 12:10 AM by Bethoc

As others have suggested, it's primarily a Hibernian issue. I was still able to find groups while leveling my hero, since some groups do recognize the value of a tank that can collect stray mobs and prevent wipes. Casters don't always react by running quickly to PBAoE, nor do they space themselves for the Verdant Animist pet to automatically gather aggro. If everyone played perfectly, we would be less desirable, but they don't. That's frequently worth a slot.

Also, the pets don't suffice against high purple mobs, and two melees cross-guarding will relieve far more pressure from the healers, so you will fill a necessary role at 50. Certain camps benefit from body pulling as well, which we are suited to, and we're capable of gathering mobs directly onto a PBAoE to maximize damage, whereas without us they would be slightly further. That matters when PBAoE is stacked repeatedly against multiple mobs. Lastly, we can free an enchanter to exclusively use their PBAoE if they would rather not focus pull and no animist is in the group.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 12:30 AM by Takii

I have a 50 mana eld and am leveling a hero alt, and I much prefer tank + pbae groups to animist/focus groups. A focus or verd is better for the later levels where you don't move camps very often (ie fins or shreds), but I haven't had any trouble with groups on my hero.

The difference is I don't just spam LFG and wait for a group, I make a group with whoever is LFG.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 9:05 AM by Sepplord

SpoonyBard wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:20 PM
Syclone wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 6:28 PM
I was very excited about coming back to DAoC. I quit a few months after SI was released. I was however disappointed to say the least to find out that the entirety of what people look for are pbae farming groups where healers heal a pet. It seems pets have replaced tanks. Hibernia seems to be the worse offender as not only can you do this with an ench but even more so with an animist. What reason would I have to make a tank besides it being an investment for end game rvr?

I feel like the current group meta really waters down the game and forces people into specific classes.

Paladin fits just nice in Alb for mass pulls. Yeah, it may be "more efficient" to do cabby or necro pulls, but what's the point if you're trading off fun. We had a Paladin, Reaver, Minstrel, Wizard, Cleric setup last night and went from 12-22 in 4-6 hours. Good fun and was more efficient than solo/duo. You don't have to maximize group efficiencies to reach the goal quickly.

Fun is all fine and dandy and lowlevel XPing is so fast it "works" well with anyone in grp. Under 20 you also don't need to kill reds to get tasks as soon as you are 5or more people in grp, which also helps a lot.

When you 45+ though and a level takes two hours, even with a 2bomb-grp perma double-pulling reds that perspective changes. You are now looking at an hour per bubble on your meleegrp

Tue 22 Jan 2019 2:52 PM by Mura

The people who laugh at tanks and refuse to help them level because they aren't 'meta' enough, are the same people that whine and cry that it takes forever to find a peeler in rvr.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 2:53 PM by Ceen

Mura wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 2:52 PM
The people who laugh at tanks and refuse to help them level because they aren't 'meta' enough, are the same people that whine and cry that it takes forever to find a peeler in rvr.

It's the once complaining that those elitists dont pick their animist for RvR since its not within the 8vs8 meta!!

Tue 22 Jan 2019 5:33 PM by defiasbandit

This is a pretty good point.

Tue 22 Jan 2019 5:33 PM by Brokenstring

Luckily on Phoenix, the leveling is such a cake walk, you're better off soloing mobs that are yellow/oj that fits your lvl 1 tasks and also drop XP items. Between the tasks, XP items and eggs, leveling is actually quite efficient.

Hib has always been this way, as someone pointed out, due to the typical cookie cutter Enchanter specs. You'll just have to build your own groups probably if you can't stand soloing.

Wed 23 Jan 2019 9:28 AM by rubaduck

Sadly, group mechanics in pve is determined by the effective time you can pull and kill. It used to be 2 tanks cross guarding with two pb's, 2 healers and 2 leeches. But here you only need 2 healers and a pet class, and 5 spots for leeches. So it's about efficiency.

In RvR however, it is more then enough room for any melee tanks or light tanks. Arms are pretty popular in both caster and melee groups on alb.

Thu 24 Jan 2019 2:57 PM by Foofmonger

I've seen this a bunch of hib, but you can always find groups if you look long enough.

It's funny when a pet/shroom dies and the group doesn't wipe. I had this exact situation happen last night where I was the only melee in the group (VW), and the enchanter/animists specifically commented on how they were so not used to melee being in the farming groups that they forgot that they don't auto-wipe if they lose their pets.

Thu 24 Jan 2019 3:25 PM by Takii

Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 2:57 PM
I've seen this a bunch of hib, but you can always find groups if you look long enough.

It's funny when a pet/shroom dies and the group doesn't wipe. I had this exact situation happen last night where I was the only melee in the group (VW), and the enchanter/animists specifically commented on how they were so not used to melee being in the farming groups that they forgot that they don't auto-wipe if they lose their pets.

Yeah, this. If you're doing "extreme" level 45+ pulls like shredders/fins with 10+ mobs it doesn't matter, but in every other situation it is way more efficient to have at least one melee in the group for that very reason.

Thu 24 Jan 2019 3:45 PM by Sepplord

Takii wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 3:25 PM
Foofmonger wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Jan 2019 2:57 PM
I've seen this a bunch of hib, but you can always find groups if you look long enough.

It's funny when a pet/shroom dies and the group doesn't wipe. I had this exact situation happen last night where I was the only melee in the group (VW), and the enchanter/animists specifically commented on how they were so not used to melee being in the farming groups that they forgot that they don't auto-wipe if they lose their pets.

Yeah, this. If you're doing "extreme" level 45+ pulls like shredders/fins with 10+ mobs it doesn't matter, but in every other situation it is way more efficient to have at least one melee in the group for that very reason.

i would say even then, someone guarding / protecting is of much value. At least more than going from 4or5 to 5or6bombs

But, as a warrior, i might be biased

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:01 AM by secrain

Those of you saying this problem is only in Hibernia, well you must not play very often because the pet meta in Albion is very real. 99% of groups only take the meta pet pull classes (cab, ice, heals) once in a while you'll get someone inviting a shield tank for guard. Even at low levels you've got pet pull meta groups. So yes, it is more difficult to level a tank on this server. Be prepared to spend quite a bit of time soloing and/or spamming LFG channel for a group.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:48 AM by Haruspex

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 9:05 AM
SpoonyBard wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:20 PM
Syclone wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 6:28 PM
I was very excited about coming back to DAoC. I quit a few months after SI was released. I was however disappointed to say the least to find out that the entirety of what people look for are pbae farming groups where healers heal a pet. It seems pets have replaced tanks. Hibernia seems to be the worse offender as not only can you do this with an ench but even more so with an animist. What reason would I have to make a tank besides it being an investment for end game rvr?

I feel like the current group meta really waters down the game and forces people into specific classes.

Paladin fits just nice in Alb for mass pulls. Yeah, it may be "more efficient" to do cabby or necro pulls, but what's the point if you're trading off fun. We had a Paladin, Reaver, Minstrel, Wizard, Cleric setup last night and went from 12-22 in 4-6 hours. Good fun and was more efficient than solo/duo. You don't have to maximize group efficiencies to reach the goal quickly.

Fun is all fine and dandy and lowlevel XPing is so fast it "works" well with anyone in grp. Under 20 you also don't need to kill reds to get tasks as soon as you are 5or more people in grp, which also helps a lot.

When you 45+ though and a level takes two hours, even with a 2bomb-grp perma double-pulling reds that perspective changes. You are now looking at an hour per bubble on your meleegrp

Except you're doing it COMPLETELY wrong by just pulling mobs to XP like you would on Uthgard or on Live DAOC. There are way better methods here for gaining levels in your 40's than just chain killing.

Like, it's not even remotely good exp to just kill mobs. That's why it's taking you so long. Your AOE groups are not efficient at all. Like AT ALL.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 7:15 AM by Sepplord

Haruspex wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Jan 2019 12:48 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 22 Jan 2019 9:05 AM
SpoonyBard wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jan 2019 8:20 PM
Paladin fits just nice in Alb for mass pulls. Yeah, it may be "more efficient" to do cabby or necro pulls, but what's the point if you're trading off fun. We had a Paladin, Reaver, Minstrel, Wizard, Cleric setup last night and went from 12-22 in 4-6 hours. Good fun and was more efficient than solo/duo. You don't have to maximize group efficiencies to reach the goal quickly.

Fun is all fine and dandy and lowlevel XPing is so fast it "works" well with anyone in grp. Under 20 you also don't need to kill reds to get tasks as soon as you are 5or more people in grp, which also helps a lot.

When you 45+ though and a level takes two hours, even with a 2bomb-grp perma double-pulling reds that perspective changes. You are now looking at an hour per bubble on your meleegrp
Except you're doing it COMPLETELY wrong by just pulling mobs to XP like you would on Uthgard or on Live DAOC. There are way better methods here for gaining levels in your 40's than just chain killing.

Like, it's not even remotely good exp to just kill mobs. That's why it's taking you so long. Your AOE groups are not efficient at all. Like AT ALL.

You are correct, but all in all, for most players, doing task-loops is not possible/effective.

The thing is, i simply do not know a task route for mobs that are different tasks AND in the levelrange where they are a) killable and b) count for task.
And if i spend half an hour looking for each new task-spot, then yeah....bombing is faster again.

And bombing is by far better money, and i am still in bomb groups after 50 to get some money for temp and pots.

Fri 25 Jan 2019 1:11 PM by Guetzli

I got to 50 with my hero and also had some difficulties in the 40s to find groups. So I did a few lvls solo with tasks + items. On the other hand, I am glad that verd groups exist, because this got me through 47-50 in a blink of an eye.
It does get better with 50, as tanks / melees are very welcome in high lvl RoG / Feather farm groups. If you don't find a group, just start one of your own. Invite people that are lfg, build your own bomb group!

Fri 25 Jan 2019 2:28 PM by randomeclipse

I came from Mid to Hib and do find it somewhat of a shame that PvE group setup is usually focussed around Ani's and/or PBAoE classes. I mean, who doesn't want a Luri in their group that can turn into a moose!