Mid is the new Alb - Phoenix Freeshard

imho

Wed 22 Jan 2020 7:39 PM by Forlornhope

What does this even mean?

Wed 22 Jan 2020 8:54 PM by Pao

I guess he means the zerging. The herra zerg getting old. Too many mids destroy the fun for all other realms.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 7:39 AM by gotwqqd

Pao wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Jan 2020 8:54 PM
I guess he means the zerging. The herra zerg getting old. Too many mids destroy the fun for all other realms.

On live almost all the servers were dominated (population) by albs.
There were some exceptions, Bors for instance was Mid dominant

Thu 23 Jan 2020 8:34 AM by Cadebrennus

Nimue was overwhelmingly Mid dominant.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:49 AM by Sepplord

The old Albion-clichee is the AMG-zerg.
Now it's the albion taskkeepzerg or benozerg.

From my POV i don't see nearly as many mids around bledmeer/taskkeep as i see albs that seem to have dedicated fullgrps or more camping their keepdoor until someone announces an inc in region chat.
Mid might be doing the same thing, but it's not like Albion has decreased their zergcamping strategy

Thu 23 Jan 2020 3:07 PM by Horus

Phoenix is broken atm.

Sad really, no need for it to be. Nice QoL changes but too much playing around too loosely with the classic rules has created something in RvR that is just out of whack.

PVE has been fine since beta. It is fine now. However there was no need to ever put any work into changing PvE it was super easy and accessible from day 1...except adding content which is fine for those that enjoy PvE.

As far as RvR...
It always was a tenuous balance between realms/classes...some may say it was never perfect but Phoenix really has screwed things up.

HP to DPS is way off...ranged damage barely moves HP bars...and all it takes is one interrupt to stop ranged dmg in its tracks. That is why it should be high. Unless you want to make melee attacks interruptable or remove the ability to interrupt bows or casting...the glass cannon formula must be in place. High damage, easy to stop is core to the classic formula.

CC used to be a critical tool for casters. Now it is worthless.

Places that should be defensive positions for ranged damage dealers are now nothing more than death traps to melee wall climbers and cheap/easy siege equipment spam which leads me to...

Siege equipment which used a be a tool for the strong and takes some planning to deploy now is spammed by anyone with a few gold in their pocket.

Buffs which used to make grouping with a buff class exceedingly valuable and made self buffing classes able to compete now are watered down by cheap availability for all so already strong classes can have their cake buffed and eat it too.

Remember when endurance management was a big part of warfare? There was a reason why that was put into place. Now it is a total non factor. I like perma-endurance as much as the next person but if we want to be honest, it is a game changer and messes with the DPS vs mobility formula balance immensely. Spell and bow ranges were not arbitrarily set . They were done based on the amount of time it takes someone to traverse that distance. 100% perma sprint breaks that formula. IMO there should be NO perma sprint under any condition. Some basic endo regen should be available via ra/spell/pot but nothing that allows perma sprint. You know that part on a style description where it says endurance cost? Remember when that meant something? Melee classes were not intended to be able to spam never ending styles. I can say that as on my ranger I was never intended to be able to spam rapid fire. That is why higher bow spec versions cost less endo. It was a pricey choice to make! Now I can just rapid fire with impunity. Sure it is nice for me, but to be fair was never intended by the classic design. Same with melee styles. The toothpaste is out of the tube on this one...not sure what could ever be rolled back...but it should be.

Too many field RAs. It is just silly at this point.

Not to be the "doom and gloom" guy, but I am already hearing the rumblings and seeing the signs. I hope it's not too late for Phoenix.

Thu 23 Jan 2020 3:39 PM by Tritri

Agree for the most part but I think you vastly overstate the thinking behind the endurance balance

Btw perma sprint has been in live servers since classic for hib and arrived a bit later for mid and alb iirc. All realm could perma sprint before ToA

And even with that, you can't just spam style endlessly on phoenix, you have to manage your endurance

But I agree with the hps to damage, it's really an issue, I was thinking about making a post about it
Time to kill as been increase and exactly what we thought would happened happened…

It's a major buff for melees and a major buffs for the side with more people, giving them more time to heal, and the longer the fights, the more adds can come

The real sad part is that it allows more mistakes, so the game become less punitive, easier
Which means it's harder than before to win a fight where you are fighting with fewer number

And let's be honest, it's not like mid needed any more buffs than what they already recieved during phoenix lifespan

I also remember people saying that reducing the timer for realm switch was going to ease the balance between realms, haha, that was a good time

Thu 23 Jan 2020 4:12 PM by Enyore

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:49 AM
The old Albion-clichee is the AMG-zerg.
Now it's the albion taskkeepzerg or benozerg.

From my POV i don't see nearly as many mids around bledmeer/taskkeep as i see albs that seem to have dedicated fullgrps or more camping their keepdoor until someone announces an inc in region chat.
Mid might be doing the same thing, but it's not like Albion has decreased their zergcamping strategy

True - (at least for EU time) because all the mids except Flumps group is running in the f'ing zerg.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 4:54 PM by Azrael

I am with Forlornhope. What is the point?
You can qq now because you are playing alb or what? You guys always repeat your qq, makes no sense. Aslong as is there no zergleader online on hib or alb and people who are willing to build decent groups (not only for leeching purposes), number does not matter . They would get keeps even if there would be 50 less people in the zerg cause mids are organized always plenty in discord tho.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 7:21 PM by Cadebrennus

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
Phoenix is broken atm.

Sad really, no need for it to be. Nice QoL changes but too much playing around too loosely with the classic rules has created something in RvR that is just out of whack.

PVE has been fine since beta. It is fine now. However there was no need to ever put any work into changing PvE it was super easy and accessible from day 1...except adding content which is fine for those that enjoy PvE.

As far as RvR...
It always was a tenuous balance between realms/classes...some may say it was never perfect but Phoenix really has screwed things up.

HP to DPS is way off...ranged damage barely moves HP bars...and all it takes is one interrupt to stop ranged dmg in its tracks. That is why it should be high. Unless you want to make melee attacks interruptable or remove the ability to interrupt bows or casting...the glass cannon formula must be in place. High damage, easy to stop is core to the classic formula.

CC used to be a critical tool for casters. Now it is worthless.

Places that should be defensive positions for ranged damage dealers are now nothing more than death traps to melee wall climbers and cheap/easy siege equipment spam which leads me to...

Siege equipment which used a be a tool for the strong and takes some planning to deploy now is spammed by anyone with a few gold in their pocket.

Buffs which used to make grouping with a buff class exceedingly valuable and made self buffing classes able to compete now are watered down by cheap availability for all so already strong classes can have their cake buffed and eat it too.

Remember when endurance management was a big part of warfare? There was a reason why that was put into place. Now it is a total non factor. I like perma-endurance as much as the next person but if we want to be honest, it is a game changer and messes with the DPS vs mobility formula balance immensely. Spell and bow ranges were not arbitrarily set . They were done based on the amount of time it takes someone to traverse that distance. 100% perma sprint breaks that formula. IMO there should be NO perma sprint under any condition. Some basic endo regen should be available via ra/spell/pot but nothing that allows perma sprint. You know that part on a style description where it says endurance cost? Remember when that meant something? Melee classes were not intended to be able to spam never ending styles. I can say that as on my ranger I was never intended to be able to spam rapid fire. That is why higher bow spec versions cost less endo. It was a pricey choice to make! Now I can just rapid fire with impunity. Sure it is nice for me, but to be fair was never intended by the classic design. Same with melee styles. The toothpaste is out of the tube on this one...not sure what could ever be rolled back...but it should be.

Too many field RAs. It is just silly at this point.

Not to be the "doom and gloom" guy, but I am already hearing the rumblings and seeing the signs. I hope it's not too late for Phoenix.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 8:20 PM by lacus

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
Phoenix is broken atm.

....

Can only agree with you ... and the final kill came from the HP upgrade.

balance was always a hard things but it's now completely broken.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:36 PM by thirian24

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:49 AM
The old Albion-clichee is the AMG-zerg.
Now it's the albion taskkeepzerg or benozerg.

From my POV i don't see nearly as many mids around bledmeer/taskkeep as i see albs that seem to have dedicated fullgrps or more camping their keepdoor until someone announces an inc in region chat.
Mid might be doing the same thing, but it's not like Albion has decreased their zergcamping strategy

I used to think the exact same thing when I played Hib. I'll roll out to see what was happening at Beno when I was on my NS. It was swarming with Albs 24/7. I never did understand why the hell it was like that.

Fast forward to me now playing on Alb. I've now realized why it's like that. It's because 8mans come there to pick off people running to the dock, 24/7. All day long. Beno's postern door in relation to the dock, gives enemies a perfect place to hit people coming out of that door. They don't have to worry about tons of guards, as there are only 2, and they don't have to worry about oil. So they roll up, smash anybody standing there, kill off the 2 guards and are now in position to Farm that postern door until they finally become overwhelmed. This is repeated all day long. No other keep is like this in relation to the dock.

So, why leave Beno, when the action is coming to your door step, literally all day.

Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:58 PM by Enyore

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jan 2020 10:36 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 9:49 AM
The old Albion-clichee is the AMG-zerg.
Now it's the albion taskkeepzerg or benozerg.

From my POV i don't see nearly as many mids around bledmeer/taskkeep as i see albs that seem to have dedicated fullgrps or more camping their keepdoor until someone announces an inc in region chat.
Mid might be doing the same thing, but it's not like Albion has decreased their zergcamping strategy

I used to think the exact same thing when I played Hib. I'll roll out to see what was happening at Beno when I was on my NS. It was swarming with Albs 24/7. I never did understand why the hell it was like that.

Fast forward to me now playing on Alb. I've now realized why it's like that. It's because 8mans come there to pick off people running to the dock, 24/7. All day long. Beno's postern door in relation to the dock, gives enemies a perfect place to hit people coming out of that door. They don't have to worry about tons of guards, as there are only 2, and they don't have to worry about oil. So they roll up, smash anybody standing there, kill off the 2 guards and are now in position to Farm that postern door until they finally become overwhelmed. This is repeated all day long. No other keep is like this in relation to the dock.

So, why leave Beno, when the action is coming to your door step, literally all day.

Albs have always been playing Baywatch at beno landing, it is as old a game as "show me yours, i show you mine".... Go to Beno this is what you get.

The thing is, that in regards to mids there is literally only 1 or maybe 2 groups roaming around EU time at the moment. Only other mids are solos, small mans or the big ass zerg they have running around.

Hibs and Albs at least have groups running around surfing around the zergs and offering some fun opposition and good fights, mids do not, only the 1-2 same groups.

The mid zerg is quite high RR and yet the groups do not dare to break off from the zerg..... Back in old frontiers you had the Weltenbrand noobs that zerged between AMG and MMG in Emain.... I mean, they were pathetic and you could usually kill them with a 2 decent groups teaming up to make quick work of them... but now the mid zerg is literally 8-10 times of what it was in old emain and they run very close, no groups running off to roam around the zergs, nope....
Most of the times if you actually do manage to find a mid group who got lost away from their zerg, they will be very high RR and still run away or SOS away if they have to to get back to the zerg simply refusing to take a group engage... i don't get it.

I am by no means an elitist and enjoy the zerg fights very much, but its crazy how there is literally NO mids anywhere else to be found than in the zerg.

Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:54 AM by lacus

Enyore wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:58 PM
The mid zerg is quite high RR and yet the groups do not dare to break off from the zerg..... Back in old frontiers you had the Weltenbrand noobs that zerged between AMG and MMG in Emain.... I mean, they were pathetic and you could usually kill them with a 2 decent groups teaming up to make quick work of them...

The bus is now full of rr 10-11

To manage a bus you need casters with aoe and/or quick dps, when i took you max 5 shots do down a big fat tank now it takes you at least 5 or 6.

Also to play a decent realm war with under populated realm you need strategy and ability to fight in structure, we lost both. Defense in structure is just a big trap . Realm strategy is mobility, so where one or two fast group could cut a realm port by taking two or three towers in ennemy land to slow them down and have the zerg to move (more slowly) back to retake them it was possible but now you have to take a keep to do so.

Sat 25 Jan 2020 8:53 AM by Enyore

lacus wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:54 AM
Enyore wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jan 2020 11:58 PM
The mid zerg is quite high RR and yet the groups do not dare to break off from the zerg..... Back in old frontiers you had the Weltenbrand noobs that zerged between AMG and MMG in Emain.... I mean, they were pathetic and you could usually kill them with a 2 decent groups teaming up to make quick work of them...

The bus is now full of rr 10-11

To manage a bus you need casters with aoe and/or quick dps, when i took you max 5 shots do down a big fat tank now it takes you at least 5 or 6.

Also to play a decent realm war with under populated realm you need strategy and ability to fight in structure, we lost both. Defense in structure is just a big trap . Realm strategy is mobility, so where one or two fast group could cut a realm port by taking two or three towers in ennemy land to slow them down and have the zerg to move (more slowly) back to retake them it was possible but now you have to take a keep to do so.

I really think you missed my point...................

The point is not that you cant, or how to, beat them......... the point is that the ONLY action vs mids that exist is this fight as none of the mids are running outside the zerg with exception of the select few.

Sat 25 Jan 2020 9:00 AM by Chaskha

While I agree with Horus on most points, what would be the use of higher HPs if damages would be scaled up too ?
Other than that, excellent points but I doubt it's ever addressed (because changing that would require some kind of reset and a loss of population => maybe in a year with a Phoenix II project if the population has dropped enough but currently I doubt there is a solution).

Sat 25 Jan 2020 4:19 PM by Saldinna

Good Joke my Friend ! Albs go to Hibs and Harder too

Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM by stewbeedoo

Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

Sun 26 Jan 2020 10:01 AM by inoeth

stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

this!
imo the server is not the problem, imo its overall pretty much balanced. its the players and their desires. too many ppl that are happy with sticking the zerg pushing just one button. and all the players who seek challenging fights are just rolled over. thats why those guys left and the only players that stayed are the zergers.

Sun 26 Jan 2020 2:44 PM by Chaskha

inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Jan 2020 10:01 AM
stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

this!
imo the server is not the problem, imo its overall pretty much balanced. its the players and their desires. too many ppl that are happy with sticking the zerg pushing just one button. and all the players who seek challenging fights are just rolled over. thats why those guys left and the only players that stayed are the zergers.

I cannot see how this would not be hypocrisy.
There is another server where the 8v8 community could then have so much fun because after all, you don't need the numbers. Say 6 teams of 8v8 with 2 per realm could have endless fun. Would it be so hard then in your little community to go there and have the game you really want?
Same would go for hardcore smallmen and you could decide for emblems like the shroom for hibbies are the smallmen guys, do not attack them if you are the beer emblem for mids that are 8v8 or the dragon emblem for the solo only of alb ...
Let's see how long this will last, shall we ?

The by-design rule of DAoC is: you can kill what is red and you can sure play however you want but denying red is dead is just naïve or plain manipulative deception for your agenda (not pointing a finger at you personnally, Inoeth).

Mon 27 Jan 2020 11:45 AM by Nunki

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Jan 2020 2:44 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Jan 2020 10:01 AM
stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

this!
imo the server is not the problem, imo its overall pretty much balanced. its the players and their desires. too many ppl that are happy with sticking the zerg pushing just one button. and all the players who seek challenging fights are just rolled over. thats why those guys left and the only players that stayed are the zergers.

I cannot see how this would not be hypocrisy.
There is another server where the 8v8 community could then have so much fun because after all, you don't need the numbers. Say 6 teams of 8v8 with 2 per realm could have endless fun. Would it be so hard then in your little community to go there and have the game you really want?
Same would go for hardcore smallmen and you could decide for emblems like the shroom for hibbies are the smallmen guys, do not attack them if you are the beer emblem for mids that are 8v8 or the dragon emblem for the solo only of alb ...
Let's see how long this will last, shall we ?

The by-design rule of DAoC is: you can kill what is red and you can sure play however you want but denying red is dead is just naïve or plain manipulative deception for your agenda (not pointing a finger at you personnally, Inoeth).

They don't want pure 8x8 fights. The "other Server" focused on 8x8 is dead, because thats not what they want on the long run.

They want to farm some solos, small-men, low RR groups or even parts of the zerg occasionally, but they don't want to get adds during 8x8 fights.

Not speaking for every 8x8 focused group/guild, but for most of them.

This server has enough different zones and mechanics to support any playstyle, focusing on one of them would most likely kill any server.

As you said, DAoC is RvRvR, none of the fights are fair anyway (RR, RA's ready, even team compositions).
Adds are normal, good players dominate or even win WITH adds.

Mon 27 Jan 2020 2:52 PM by Horus

stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

I think you stumbled into another issue. Most of of us (right or wrong) look at Phoenix as the "classic" daoc experience with some QoL tweaks. Maybe that is the core of the issue. Phoenix almost seems to take more queues from Live than Classic. Understandable somewhat. You can test "new" functionality on Pendragon and have some supporting evidence. Some things that were classic are impossible to retest so it goes by peoples' memory, which can be subjective. Maybe it is just our perception that is wrong. We are looking to Phoenix to relive that Classic fun we had but the server is not setup to be "Classic". It is its own animal, not really classic, not really live, i.e. working as designed and intended.

Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:20 PM by stewbeedoo

Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 2:52 PM
stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

I think you stumbled into another issue. Most of of us (right or wrong) look at Phoenix as the "classic" daoc experience with some QoL tweaks. Maybe that is the core of the issue. Phoenix almost seems to take more queues from Live than Classic. Understandable somewhat. You can test "new" functionality on Pendragon and have some supporting evidence. Some things that were classic are impossible to retest so it goes by peoples' memory, which can be subjective. Maybe it is just our perception that is wrong. We are looking to Phoenix to relive that Classic fun we had but the server is not setup to be "Classic". It is its own animal, not really classic, not really live, i.e. working as designed and intended.

I agree that Phoenix is unique and not really true to Classic. Otherwise my Ranger would have PD and dominate like in 2004.

A great example of this uniqueness is the Phoenix task collection / ROG system vs quests and named MOB drops. Because of this templating is completely different than any other server - who needs an item database when all items are random? This has led to gemcutting becoming a real craft so we can remake ROGs into something better for our templates.

I find this approach entertaining because after all this time I need things to be different. I'm not just doing what I did when I first started in 2005.

And it is fascinating to watch the Devs make choices and fall into the pit of unintended consequences. My favorite example of this is the treatment of water in NF. The fact that we cannot go underwater seems fine on the surface - it was silly to fight underwater and hard for noobs. However, since we cannot dive the large character models are very visible in the water and the small ones effectively invisible. This is a huge advantage and I think the Devs did not anticipate it.

Mon 27 Jan 2020 9:34 PM by Cadebrennus

stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 4:20 PM
Horus wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jan 2020 2:52 PM
stewbeedoo wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Jan 2020 7:03 PM
Phoenix is not perfect, but has far less issues than Live.

On Live the gear, RAs, MLs, CLs, etc. made fights ridiculously long. On my Live Champ I fought Shouldataken the Pally for 25 minutes. Here the fights are usually 30-60 seconds. So I don't see the HP boost as a massive issue.

On Live endo management was a non-issue. Conversely, my Phoenix Hero can run out of endo pretty quick if I spam the anytime styles.

I'm just saying some valid points have been raised in this thread, but I don't think the situation is as dire.

I think you stumbled into another issue. Most of of us (right or wrong) look at Phoenix as the "classic" daoc experience with some QoL tweaks. Maybe that is the core of the issue. Phoenix almost seems to take more queues from Live than Classic. Understandable somewhat. You can test "new" functionality on Pendragon and have some supporting evidence. Some things that were classic are impossible to retest so it goes by peoples' memory, which can be subjective. Maybe it is just our perception that is wrong. We are looking to Phoenix to relive that Classic fun we had but the server is not setup to be "Classic". It is its own animal, not really classic, not really live, i.e. working as designed and intended.
I agree that Phoenix is unique and not really true to Classic. Otherwise my Ranger would have PD and dominate like in 2004.

A great example of this uniqueness is the Phoenix task collection / ROG system vs quests and named MOB drops. Because of this templating is completely different than any other server - who needs an item database when all items are random? This has led to gemcutting becoming a real craft so we can remake ROGs into something better for our templates.

I find this approach entertaining because after all this time I need things to be different. I'm not just doing what I did when I first started in 2005.

And it is fascinating to watch the Devs make choices and fall into the pit of unintended consequences. My favorite example of this is the treatment of water in NF. The fact that we cannot go underwater seems fine on the surface - it was silly to fight underwater and hard for noobs. However, since we cannot dive the large character models are very visible in the water and the small ones effectively invisible. This is a huge advantage and I think the Devs did not anticipate it.

It was like this on Live too, pre-TOA.

Post-TOA small models still had an advantage over the largest models, above and below the water.

Mon 27 Jan 2020 10:00 PM by Alpenbruder

Pao wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Jan 2020 8:54 PM
I guess he means the zerging. The herra zerg getting old. Too many mids destroy the fun for all other realms.

Actually our evening 'zerg' grew by roughly 1-2 groups and is peaking to 6 groups in total with 2 small-sized guilds joining our alliance recently.
In fact we had a very bad reputation in Mid for a very long time. The public BGs and their leaders were always fingerpointing for their fails.
(Thanks to Giosakis - Midgard really went better with you. We love you and the way you do the BG and your very valuable cooperation wherever it is needed)

Talking numbers…
Being 32-48 players for 2 hours during evening primtime while Albion and Hibernia was never less than 80 since May 2019 it is really sad to see how frustrated other realms seem to be.

None of our alliance members ever posted a crier when we had to fight 80-140 enemies between April and October 2019.
Nor did we ever hide in keeps when outnumbered.
We dont really care if you are 80, 180, 1.800. We will keep doing what we did in 2019 and 2 years before on previous server.
We challenge, get knocked down, stand back up and fix what needs to be fixed.

I also want to give a call out to you solos, smallmen and 8vs8 keens out there.
We really appreciate the way you play, we are absolutely not against it. But we will not stop hitting your enemies if we see you fighting on our way to destination.
If you really want to avoid adds or kill steal: dont be lazy to walk a bit offside. Agramon (Ellain Vallin) is an empty zone - you even get free ports after being killed in the zone.
It will minimize all your frustration if you are not willing to join our mission for the realm

But please dont blame us for being a good community

Tue 28 Jan 2020 5:22 PM by Freedomcall

Guess what, Giosakis is on alb, leading Alb BG.

Tue 28 Jan 2020 5:29 PM by Loki

Breeding the next generation of high RRs who can't play their class or pan a camera.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:13 AM by rafjord

meh, zergers gonna zerg. they are never gonna get any better at the game, and there will never be an understanding by the 8man players of what goes through a zergers head, and vice versa. If anyone here is truly interested in running 8 man and fighting other 8 man groups, but doesn't know where to start, feel free to message me and I can point you in the direction of discords that are set up to support 8v8.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:39 AM by MrWolf

rafjord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:13 AM
. If anyone here is truly interested in running 8 man and fighting other 8 man groups, but doesn't know where to start, feel free to message me and I can point you in the direction ....

of EV

Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:05 PM by MeatBicycle

It's also a nice cliché to label all zergers as bad players. Its a different playstyle but there are important things like interrupt and positioning , too. Don't get it why 8 man players are thinking they are better players when they often just farm solos and smallmen. And even assist the zergs on keeps/towers for rps. You see that a lot even on tower retakes without defenders and so on. Its not like they are able to 8v8 cleanfight until high rr. Often it looks like they are 'circling' around the Zerg looking for smaller groups, which are trying to reach te zerg, or a good engage on a beatable zerg. Or as i said just to add on the own zerg to gain some rps.

Every day you will find fullgroups farming at the task keeps where mostly solos running around bridges and docks. Sometimes they get overwhelmed by the mass of coastguarders, but often you can farm and farm and farm and don't tell me those fights need skill at all.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 12:14 PM by Alpenbruder

Freedomcall wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Jan 2020 5:22 PM
Guess what, Giosakis is on alb, leading Alb BG.

He might not be the best leader but he definitely has the right attitude and willing to cooperate.
We wish our Malaka all the best.

We also noticed Harder back in Albion yesterday and are also happy about it. 3 very nice surprise rushes on us and well deserved win of fights.

Keep on

Wed 29 Jan 2020 2:20 PM by canzian

Now giosakis play alb?

Wed 29 Jan 2020 3:23 PM by Horus

Easy realm hopping is part of the problem...

IMO

Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:29 PM by rafjord

Just because there are 8 people in a group, it doesn't make those people '8v8ers'.

personally, I believe zergers to be poor players, because whenever I pug with someone who zergs, they are bad.

EV isn't perfect for 8v8. There will generally be a couple of people amongst the groups looking to 8v8, who has potato pc and cant run EV. This is a shame because I enjoy the fights whenever I have gone there

Also, you CAN get high rr from 8v8.

I have.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 6:04 PM by Stoertebecker

rafjord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:29 PM
Also, you CAN get high rr from 8v8.

You`ll never get a high rr only from 8v8 and only 8v8, ignoring all the solos, duos and small groups.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:20 PM by gotwqqd

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
rafjord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:29 PM
Also, you CAN get high rr from 8v8.

You`ll never get a high rr only from 8v8 and only 8v8, ignoring all the solos, duos and small groups.

But that doesn’t matter
The “skill” encounter is what does.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:25 PM by Riac

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:20 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
rafjord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:29 PM
Also, you CAN get high rr from 8v8.

You`ll never get a high rr only from 8v8 and only 8v8, ignoring all the solos, duos and small groups.

But that doesn’t matter
The “skill” encounter is what does.

with the welfare rps, youll get high rr from just logging in lol.

Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:33 PM by Stoertebecker

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:20 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
rafjord wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 4:29 PM
Also, you CAN get high rr from 8v8.

You`ll never get a high rr only from 8v8 and only 8v8, ignoring all the solos, duos and small groups.

But that doesn’t matter
The “skill” encounter is what does.

Which Skill? Hyprocrite Skill-line or *I`m a Hero in a 20 y old mmorpg, my reflexes are too slow for new games*? *clap clap

Sun 2 Feb 2020 4:56 PM by Sepplord

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:33 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:20 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 6:04 PM
You`ll never get a high rr only from 8v8 and only 8v8, ignoring all the solos, duos and small groups.

But that doesn’t matter
The “skill” encounter is what does.

Which Skill? Hyprocrite Skill-line or *I`m a Hero in a 20 y old mmorpg, my reflexes are too slow for new games*? *clap clap

as much as i dislike the mentality that some so called "eliteplayers" try to nforce on everyone else, there are more skills to games than reflexes and muscle memory...

Do you also consider chessplayers skilless people playing a 1500year old game because their reflexes are too slow for new games?

Sun 2 Feb 2020 7:13 PM by Gondlyr

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 8:34 AM
Nimue was overwhelmingly Mid dominant.

In the Frontier yes. Albion had Sacred Fury and another guild I can't remember the name of but the Albion roleplayers would only come out to defend the Str relic or Ren. I have mostly Rvr'd as a Hib since NF. Back in 2010 - 2012 I was actually in a guild that started on Hib Nimue, on that server that shall not be named.
Playing Phoenix it was an adjustment in RvR to avoid the Mid Zerg. It just isn't the Midgard mentality that I knew from the start of DAOC. (not counting zerging to get relics, I remember once having 3 chat groups, way before BG's, for a relic raid vs hibs on Nimue. There was a huge pile of bodies to rez thanks to corpse summoner)

Sun 2 Feb 2020 9:22 PM by Isavyr

Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 3:07 PM
Phoenix is broken atm.

HP to DPS is way off...ranged damage barely moves HP bars...and all it takes is one interrupt to stop ranged dmg in its tracks. That is why it should be high. Unless you want to make melee attacks interruptable or remove the ability to interrupt bows or casting...the glass cannon formula must be in place. High damage, easy to stop is core to the classic formula.

CC used to be a critical tool for casters. Now it is worthless.

Places that should be defensive positions for ranged damage dealers are now nothing more than death traps to melee wall climbers and cheap/easy siege equipment spam which leads me to...

Siege equipment which used a be a tool for the strong and takes some planning to deploy now is spammed by anyone with a few gold in their pocket.

Buffs which used to make grouping with a buff class exceedingly valuable and made self buffing classes able to compete now are watered down by cheap availability for all so already strong classes can have their cake buffed and eat it too.

Remember when endurance management was a big part of warfare? ... Now it is a total non factor...

Too many field RAs. It is just silly at this point.

I agree with some of your points, but disagree with the general message--I think Phoenix RvR is a lot more competitive/balanced than any other server has been in classic.

Purge timer does change how RvR plays out--you have to bait purges, whereas before, purge wasn't up a lot of the time, so a single form of CC created a lot more momentum. A class like a bard cannot win based on one ball mezz here, as everyone will purge it. A secondary form of CC is necessary, creating a better RvR dynamic. Whereas before mezz was sufficient, now roots are becoming a lot more relevant. In general, we're seeing a lot of different builds that couldn't have existed before because the old meta didn't support much diversity. It is way way more diverse on Phoenix.

Rapid fire: archers already suffer here from niche performance, so the fact they can pin down a couple casters simultaneously with rapid fire is balanced. It's how it should be. Rapidfire shouldn't use more endurance. So this is a non-issue because it was originally poor design.

Endurance--no, melee cannot spam styles while sprinting after enemies. This is the exception, not the norm. My feeling is most 8v8 players are OK with this, whether they're on melee or casters. Red endurance is very very necessary for tanks to be able to stay on target and style consistently.

I also disagree with the high HP being an issue in itself. I think casters damage is poor and unacceptably low without debuffs. Yet, before, and with slight interface lag, their debuff damage was at times unacceptably high (you're talking insta deaths--this isn't good gameplay). The HP boost is still manageable for caster groups. It's controversial but I don't see any good groups really complaining about it--it feels like people don't really understand why this is good. It gets rid of cheesy low-skill tactics, and favors fights where players use control and setups--it's arguably what DAOC is about.

Lastly, no 8-man forgoes strong buffs in favor of the +50 charges. C'mon. That's a really bad point.

Mon 3 Feb 2020 7:49 AM by Cadebrennus

Gondlyr wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 7:13 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Jan 2020 8:34 AM
Nimue was overwhelmingly Mid dominant.

In the Frontier yes. Albion had Sacred Fury and another guild I can't remember the name of but the Albion roleplayers would only come out to defend the Str relic or Ren. I have mostly Rvr'd as a Hib since NF. Back in 2010 - 2012 I was actually in a guild that started on Hib Nimue, on that server that shall not be named.
Playing Phoenix it was an adjustment in RvR to avoid the Mid Zerg. It just isn't the Midgard mentality that I knew from the start of DAOC. (not counting zerging to get relics, I remember once having 3 chat groups, way before BG's, for a relic raid vs hibs on Nimue. There was a huge pile of bodies to rez thanks to corpse summoner)

Sacred Fury was almost purely an 8v8, and they were really good. I ran with them a few times. The other Alb guild that was pretty active in the frontier (stealther and visi) was Shroud, and that was the guild I was in. Mid may have been different on other servers (Albs zerged on Guin but weren't 4x the number of Mid or Hib), but on Nimue it was insanely lopsided in terms of how many people played Mid vs other realms. Hibs were almost nonexistent in the frontier and BGs. When you saw an Elf in game, it was almost as mythical as if someone saw an Elf IRL lol.

Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:26 PM by Stoertebecker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 4:56 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:33 PM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Wed 29 Jan 2020 10:20 PM
But that doesn’t matter
The “skill” encounter is what does.

Which Skill? Hyprocrite Skill-line or *I`m a Hero in a 20 y old mmorpg, my reflexes are too slow for new games*? *clap clap

as much as i dislike the mentality that some so called "eliteplayers" try to nforce on everyone else, there are more skills to games than reflexes and muscle memory...

Do you also consider chessplayers skilless people playing a 1500year old game because their reflexes are too slow for new games?

Ehm, after i met a prof chessplayer once...yes

Out of context, btw

Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:28 PM by Wolfir666

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:26 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 4:56 PM
Do you also consider chessplayers skilless people playing a 1500year old game because their reflexes are too slow for new games?

Ehm, after i met a prof chessplayer once...yes

Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:45 PM by Sepplord

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:28 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:26 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 4:56 PM
Do you also consider chessplayers skilless people playing a 1500year old game because their reflexes are too slow for new games?

Ehm, after i met a prof chessplayer once...yes

Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:35 AM by Warjon

"Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore."

Yep yep. I once beat a Russian master at our club the first time we played. I came out as white trading everything and let the pawn formation, and luck rule the day. My impatient sister sitting behind me continually adjusting her bra also helped! All is fair in chess! I also never gave him a rematch! lol telling him I already proved he was beneath me! I knew I would never beat him again.

So I am a believer in first encounters and RNG

Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:29 PM by Stoertebecker

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:28 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 8:26 PM
Ehm, after i met a prof chessplayer once...yes

Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:16 PM by Sepplord

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:29 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:28 PM
Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

who said you should go wild about it?
and i never disputed that reflexes slow down, but i thought it was a moronic statement to make. It didn't serve a purpose besides insulting someone, while at the same time being factually incorrect in its implication too.
The implication was that modern games require more skill by default (which is completely wrong) and that daoc is not skillbased at all...which is also incorrect. I really don't understand why you are doubling down on such moronic statements over and over again.
It hurts your intended argument that seems to be: "you are no better human being just because you are good at a non competitive 20year old computer game. It's not even something to get overly excited about" which i can agree on.

Tue 4 Feb 2020 3:23 PM by Stoertebecker

Then we agree to disagree

DAoC with its gameplay fits perfectly for old farts like you and me, and many more.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 1:00 PM by Cadebrennus

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:29 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:28 PM
Admittedly chess really isnt a good example, or maybe it even is, as the rules never are changed, in 100 years you still will play chess exactly the same way as you do now, only thing that exists is a slight difference between existing rulesets like en passant and such.
So in truth you can call a chessplayer a very specialized player, that always does the same, because he learned everything of that a long while ago, and he learned all possible counters and existing strategies to counter the counters and such.. but he never will have to face new rule-changes or evolving game-tactics, as he knows them all already.

Basically like a DAoC-player from 20 years ago, who still likes to play it the "old way" and isn't open for any changes

Edit:
By the way, that's why a casual chess-player is sometimes able to beat a semi-professional chess player in the first match. As the semi-pro in all his experience and knowledge isnt able to determine, what the casual will do, in the very first game. But as soon as he knows your playstyle and can read you, no chance anymore.

How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 3:50 PM by Stoertebecker

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 1:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:29 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:45 PM
How is chess not a good example? It's an old game and you listed examples yourself how someone's skill in the game lets him consistently beat new players. Imo it is perfect to show that old games still require skill and not everything modern is automatically better for displaying skill.

Remember why i made the argument: stoertebecker implied that daoc doesnt require skill and that actually skilled players would have the reflexes to play a newer game. That is the context in which i mentioned chess as example of a reflex-independant old Game that is very skilldependant

The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

And you go into rvr without a template? I got bored with Eso-pvp because everybody and his dog were dodgerolling over the half map...but ok, some ppl call it skill

At least all the games require 1 or 2 skills today.... how to create macros for keyboard and/or mouse.

Thu 6 Feb 2020 5:18 AM by MeatBicycle

And what about the rvr in the past few days? Is Mid really the problem here? Its about 2-3h a day where Mid has a 'strong zerg'. Rest of the day Mids are just unorganized and the Midgard fz looks like a christmas tree (speaking mostly for EU Time). At the moment Hibs are pve-ing for the next relic, so even the US time don't seem to be that good for Mid anymore. I really don't care about that but the crying about the Midgard 'Zerg' is just hilarious. Every few weeks somethings changes because people are switching their mainrealm for a while and then it goes back to another realm.

Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:06 AM by Cadebrennus

Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 3:50 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 1:00 PM
Stoertebecker wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 12:29 PM
The chessplayer i met is brilliant in playing chess, but thats all, he fails in all other stuff. He broke 2 fingers on his left hand as he was trying to knock a nail into the wall.
Should i go wild for such skill? Surely not. Thats a realy worse example from your side.
Chess requires exactly 1 Skill, DAoC is a bit more complex but its gameplay is (compared with more modern games in this genre) slow and static.
Generally not a bad thing, nothing to brag about....but if i read such nonsense that ppl think they`re something like a gamergod...yeah *clap clap

Btw, reflexes slow down over the years..human:nature

I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

And you go into rvr without a template? I got bored with Eso-pvp because everybody and his dog were dodgerolling over the half map...but ok, some ppl call it skill

At least all the games require 1 or 2 skills today.... how to create macros for keyboard and/or mouse.

lol the dodge-rolling, I forgot about that nonsense!

Thu 6 Feb 2020 7:19 AM by Sepplord

MeatBicycle wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Feb 2020 5:18 AM
And what about the rvr in the past few days? Is Mid really the problem here? Its about 2-3h a day where Mid has a 'strong zerg'. Rest of the day Mids are just unorganized and the Midgard fz looks like a christmas tree (speaking mostly for EU Time). At the moment Hibs are pve-ing for the next relic, so even the US time don't seem to be that good for Mid anymore. I really don't care about that but the crying about the Midgard 'Zerg' is just hilarious. Every few weeks somethings changes because people are switching their mainrealm for a while and then it goes back to another realm.

It's always the same, raidleaders switch around and the realm losing the zergleaders start suffering. If it stays like this i am sure that soon there will be whines about a different realm (a small glimpse into the future is the "albernia"-relicraid whine...as if it is somehow surprising that a realm that dominated relics gets teamed up on). It's also why i have respect for pilzpower. As much as you can laugh about some of his actions that seem ridiculous for a zergleader....he doesn't give up and he stands for his realm. Without him Hibernia would have been gone months ago and he is an important part of the phoenix server framework.

Thu 6 Feb 2020 10:13 AM by Tritri

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 1:00 PM
I would vehemently disagree with you in that more modern games require skill. Let's compare WoW and ESO PvP to DAOC's PvP. I got incredibly bored with ESO because the battles became much more predictable than DAOC's battles. In both ESO and WoW the winner was determined by their temp and not their actual skill. At least here on Phoenix the bar is much lower for putting together a suit for RvR, and then it's also the abilities of the player and class after that that determine your chances of winning a fight.

Mmm.. first of all, modern games aren't all mmorpg. You can look for battle design requiring high skill on other types of games (lol/dota/battlerite/etc...)

And even in the mmorpg genre, there are tons of games requiring higher skill then daoc…. and yeah, Wow is definetly one of them if you played high level arena fights (I got bored in the end, but it was clearly a higher skill ceiling)
But there is also Aion or Blade and Soul for example

Also, even if it's true that DAoC has a low barrier of entry to go rvr because all the stuff are similar (I really love the way you can build your own sc in daoc), we can't overlook the fact that the rank plays a huge role aswell

Between a 10L group with all RAs and 5L group with all RAs… there is definetly a gap

Though I admit, the gap isn't impossible to manage

Anyway, when you talk about skill gap, you have to take into account when comparing that the others factors are similar (cooldown, stuff, terrain, …)

Even if to compare a game to another, you have to take into account how often the skill is really taken into account and not erased by some other factors (like stuff in Aion yeah, or even in wow at some points)

A lot of DAoC's skill cap is going through the lack of ergonomy :]

Thu 6 Feb 2020 10:37 AM by Sepplord

i dsiagree that in theory wow has a higher skill ceiling than daoc.
Daocs interuppt and CC system is far more punishing for misplays, as well as requiring coordination between 8people VS 8people makes it immensely complicated.

But that is theory. I agree that in practice daoc's skillrequirements are very often secondary because of many other factors influencing fights, which doesn't happen in an arena-based esports environment. A huge part of DAoCs skill is not getting surprised and picking an advantageous engagement, while avoiding disadvantaged ones. The asymmetric possibilities of different realms in that regard disqualify DAOC already from being an esport. But that doesn't mean that the skill-ceiling is lower. It just means that less encounters overall are decided by the skill difference between the fighting parties.