Is the Meta really that important?

As a person with minimal DAoC experience, I've been spending a lot of time reading these forums and learning about many different things. Any time I'm interested in playing a class, I go and read up on it. Inevitably there will be some comments that effectively say "if you don't spec/play this class this way, you won't get groups." Or at least something similar to that, whether it's getting groups or just that the toon would be highly ineffective.

The Meta exists for a reason, over time people have found that it is the best option, and therefore people try to save others from making mistakes with their build. This is appreciated, but it can also be discouraging. For example, I was already in my 20's with a Blademaster when I saw comments about "42 shield for the stun." Now I have no interest in using a shield on my BM. I'm leveling him with max CD and Parry, with Pierce lagging behind. If that turns out to be really terrible I will consider adjusting, but I still have no interest in shield, unless I give up on CD.

But the question becomes, where does the Meta really matter? In PvE I doubt the shield stun is that critical for a backup tank and/or melee dps toon. For solo PvP it would matter a lot, but I doubt BM's are much good for that role. Smallman/8v8 is probably where it matters the most, with limited numbers and specialized roles, the perfect build is highly effective there. But the zerg? Would the zerg care? About my spec, I would hope not. That I'm a BM and not something cooler, well that they could care about, but that's a different portion of the Meta.

Last night I made a Warden, to see if I liked the class. I started off by ignoring all the race suggestions and going Firbolg. Then I ignored the recommendation for Slash and went Blunt. Since I'm looking for fun, and not just being contrarian, I'll probably still spec high in Nurture. But the specs I'm seeing suggested have like 10 Slash (for a reason), but I'm leaning a little more towards melee with this toon. So I'm going to come up with something that works for me, but I'm legitimately concerned about how much people would care about a 6-sec PBT versus an 8-sec PBT.

I'm open to playing any activity in the game, but I'd like to go in with the knowledge of where things might matter and where they might not. So for those of you who've been around the bend with DAoC a few times, can you give me some insight on this issue? How much should I care about the meta (for specs and class selection)? And are there activities where it matters less?

Wed 30 Jan 2019 7:48 PM by Brokenstring

Meta matters when you're playing other optimized players that can utilize their classes with a high level of skill and make very few mistakes. Not having certain abilities in that situation compounds the issue.

If you're in a zerg, not having a big time stun like slam can still hurt, but each one individual thing is less magnified like it is in 8 man or smallman. Slamming a tank off your healer, for example, can help in a zerg or in a small man or anywhere in between. It's just a very useful skill that generally you want access to on a class like Blademaster.

Luckily, Phoenix is very fast leveling, and rerolling isn't nearly as big of a deal here than on a particular other server. So if you find yourself not liking your current character's roll, you can always make another character and won't be out of the action for very long.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 12:36 AM by vbt

The meta formed through trial and error like you said. over time people came to expect certain spec lines because those spec lines allow that class to operate at maximum potential for the group. If you grouped a bard and found he had no spec in music but all of his points in blades, it would be detrimental to the group (unless you cater to his unique spec by adding another bard, but at this point why would you group him when melee dps classes are capable of more dps than he can put out?) The meta allows people who have never played together to play together in a functional way because everyone has accurate expectations of what the other classes are going to be doing.

If you're not playing competitive, or playing with friends, spec whatever you want by all means. You can all cater to and bolster each others odd specs and probably make some off the wall stuff work, or at least have fun. But if you're looking to group with strangers, they're going to expect cc classes to cc, healers to heal, melee to melee, and casters to do maximum dmg. Theres wiggle room within these confines like blades vs blunt or higher heals vs higher cc, but generally the meta is set for competitive play.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 AM by Tritri

Well you have to understand that DAoC is an old game and this is an old version of an old game

Which means two things to understand :
- A lot of spec are really gimped
- A lot of mechanics are hidden / hard to understand

To pick your examples :
Why 42 Shield with BM ? because you will spent the rest of the point to have 50 CD and 39 in your main weapon. So you will have high CD for your CD styles and bonus hit to your left hand + high spec in main weapon (39 + 11 bonus minimum at lvl 50, so basically 50), which means your damage will be high while still having the anytime 42 stun.

CD gives you access to CD's styles (which are often pretty good) and increase your chances to attack with your left hands, and speccing in your main weapon will increase your damage with it
Does it matter in zerg ? Well.. not THAT much for a melee.
If you play in group / small man you will really lack in something since you won't have many more damage than a BM 50cd/42s/39w, you'll just not have a 9 sec stun anytime (+ no guard)
Why not putting point in parry then ? Because most of the time the other tanks are not going to try to kill you, it's the mage that will burst you down, and parrying isn't going to help much against them.
It will not be that bad against other tanks, using evades and parry can be surprising to a ennemy tank trying to stun you, but you'll be duelling a tank in the middle of the melee, especially since you know you can't stun him since you don't have 42 shield, you have better things to do in the fight :p

Now onto Warden, why not spec in weapon with a Warden ? Well, because their damage table is abysmally low ... So you are better of speccing in your main weapon just for the effects of your style. That's why they spec 10 blade : for the side snare
Want to know how abysmal it is ?
You can see at this timestamp a Warden 7Lx using high level blade style on a healer in this meta, look at the healer's life

https://youtu.be/v3Am3kHddZU?t=157

Warden's are not hybrid tank, they are support that can use weapons. Not that they hit very fast and use close to no stamina. But you really don't gain much by speccing in your main weapon

In conclusion : Meta is not THAT important, you can play some well thought off meta spec or comp, but to break the meta you have to understand the meta first

There are off meta spec that can be interesting, but you have to understand pretty well the game to find them. Not knowing much about the game will just end up making really gimped toons

Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:03 AM by Cadebrennus

Some "metas" do make sense, but many are chosen simply out of habit or because "that's the way it's done" without any question. For example;

50 CD 39 Pierce makes perfect sense, because other than the evade stun at 21 Pierce, everything sucks in Pierce compared to CD.

However, if Blades, you SHOULDN'T spec 39 Blades 50 CD just because everyone says you should. The better spec is actually 50 Blades 39 CD because the styles in Blades are far superior to the styles in CD. For comparison, the level 50 CD style is a 3rd in chain from a side positional, and is the same growth rate as the level 50 Blades style which is 2nd in a rear positional, which is far more spammable on a running target.

The detractors here will point out that you will have less offhand swing chance, and it's true. However it is not as significant as they will say. The difference between 39 and 50 Celtic Dual is 8% less chance to swing an unstyled offhand. Just for argument's sake let's assume the offhand hits for 75 each time. The difference in damage is literally 6 damage lost per swing over time between 50 CD and 39 CD. The benefit however is higher damage with one of the best anytime chains in the game (Fireblade --> Spectrum Blade) and a superior positional chain (Revenging Blade --> Brilliant Blade) that I use after the initial snare from CD. Now, this isn't "meta", but it is certainly better, and is something I figured out with trial and error.

My advice is to be aware of the meta but don't let it constrain you.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:51 AM by Tritri

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:03 AM
However, if Blades, you SHOULDN'T spec 39 Blades 50 CD just because everyone says you should. The better spec is actually 50 Blades 39 CD because the styles in Blades are far superior to the styles in CD. For comparison, the level 50 CD style is a 3rd in chain from a side positional, and is the same growth rate as the level 50 Blades style which is 2nd in a rear positional, which is far more spammable on a running target.

Carefull, this is true for Ranger (which have a gimped version of CD, with evade combo instead of parry combo), not for Blademaster

Ranger GR side combo is :
0.68 > 0.88 > 0.9

Blademaster GR side combo is :
0.7 > 1.0 > 1.25

Thu 31 Jan 2019 4:11 PM by PingGuy

Firstly, thanks for the responses. They did help clarify a few things for me on this issue.

Secondly, there's this:

Tritri wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 8:09 AM
...
Why not putting point in parry then ? Because most of the time the other tanks are not going to try to kill you, it's the mage that will burst you down, and parrying isn't going to help much against them.
It will not be that bad against other tanks, using evades and parry can be surprising to a ennemy tank trying to stun you, but you'll be duelling a tank in the middle of the melee, especially since you know you can't stun him since you don't have 42 shield, you have better things to do in the fight :p

Now onto Warden, why not spec in weapon with a Warden ? Well, because their damage table is abysmally low ... So you are better of speccing in your main weapon just for the effects of your style. That's why they spec 10 blade : for the side snare
Want to know how abysmal it is ?
You can see at this timestamp a Warden 7Lx using high level blade style on a healer in this meta, look at the healer's life
https://youtu.be/v3Am3kHddZU?t=157
...

Those are some good points that I hadn't really thought about. In my head, Parry and Shield were equivalent, because they accomplish the same goal of preventing damage. While I had considered that the stun was important, I hadn't considered that the entire shield line was useless aside from it. As for the Warden, I do keep forgetting that there are different damage tables for different classes. So while I believe Blunt has a snare on the second style in the side chain, that still doesn't make melee any more important for the class, other than using that snare.

It does seem, from reading all these posts, that the Meta is just the most common "best way" for any given class. And that there are other "best ways" that might mesh with other setups for different classes. But that it gets too confusing to try and develop and maintain a second level of the Meta for any given combination of classes. Still that won't be true for every class, and the fundamentals of RvR will only allow for so much variance in class functionality. As was pointed out, with this being an old game, a lot of specs are gimped. That's sad for somebody like me who likes to try things that sound fun over things that sound effective, but it's also to be expected, because balancing every aspect of every class isn't really possible.

Is there any role for a melee to spec max damage (50CD & 50Pierce) and not worry about having a stun? Wouldn't interrupts be useful in some capacity? I just want to understand what is possible.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 5:29 PM by Cadebrennus

Tritri wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 11:51 AM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 31 Jan 2019 10:03 AM
However, if Blades, you SHOULDN'T spec 39 Blades 50 CD just because everyone says you should. The better spec is actually 50 Blades 39 CD because the styles in Blades are far superior to the styles in CD. For comparison, the level 50 CD style is a 3rd in chain from a side positional, and is the same growth rate as the level 50 Blades style which is 2nd in a rear positional, which is far more spammable on a running target.

Carefull, this is true for Ranger (which have a gimped version of CD, with evade combo instead of parry combo), not for Blademaster

Ranger GR side combo is :
0.68 > 0.88 > 0.9

Blademaster GR side combo is :
0.7 > 1.0 > 1.25

Yup forgot about that, thanks. It's still third in chain though, and a side chain at that. I would still go Blades 50 over CD 50 because of those two reasons.

Thu 31 Jan 2019 5:30 PM by Turtle006

If you want to go 50/50 with no stun, play a Berserker. (Mostly kidding)

Slam is so strong that giving it up is seriously difficult to justify on any class that can get it

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:11 AM by Tritri

Yeah, and by not speccing shield you also lose the ability to engage ( op versus archer ), and guard, which you don't have access with parry spec

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:42 AM by Cadebrennus

Tritri wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:11 AM
Yeah, and by not speccing shield you also lose the ability to engage ( op versus archer ), and guard, which you don't have access with parry spec

Every Shield using class should spec the minimum for Guard and Engage, which isn't much.

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:45 AM by Tritri

Well engage is going to be somewhat useful even with a low shield spec, but guard isn't going to do much, especially on a BM... like, you are not going to pull up your shield to try to guard someone for 10% chance, you are going to try and outdps or snare the guy

Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:49 AM by Cadebrennus

Tritri wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Feb 2019 9:45 AM
Well engage is going to be somewhat useful even with a low shield spec, but guard isn't going to do much, especially on a BM... like, you are not going to pull up your shield to try to guard someone for 10% chance, you are going to try and outdps or snare the guy

Good point, but it should also work vs those pesky Archers when there's not a melee threatening your back line

Fri 1 Feb 2019 3:58 PM by moghedan

Unless your entire sense of self is balled up in being the best in very specific scenarios in a 18 year old game frozen in time to 15 years ago, do what you want.

As stated, some specs simply do not work, and a lot of groups automatically assume you can do the certain things only your class can do. However, you can free respec.

But yes, a paladin, two minstrels, and a scout can still have fun, and a perfectly crafted group of cookie cutter specs can still fail.