Why the game needs New Frontiers

I'm aware lot of people will disagree for various reasons but i have to make this topic and an argument for a switch to NF maps. Now the game has been out for a few time you should start seeing some "problems" with the current RvR system and maps. Here is a short list :

- Maps in general are too small. With teleports and task system most fights tend to happen in Emain/Odin/Hadrian which are virtually even smaller due to dead zones, topography and mobs. The result being most people end up in small corridors and zerg. Even if you want to go to an other map to cut the reinforcment you have to go threw a zerg to go on a map which also has too much hills or forests. NF looks better for land fights of all sizes.

- Keeps/Siege/Relic system what's the point ? I mean not only keeps have a very poor design both for attackers and defenders but there is no stake in the end. Bonuses are too small to be noticeable, they don't really provide a strategic advantage because we can't teleport on keeps (not necessary one in the fight zone but it could save us some time to teleport to a keep one map closer to the task zone). It's like the only reason to get keeps is to get DF.

- NF bring interesting stuff for solo/small men. Bridges are a better places to fight compared to a gate imo, more ways for escape after a short fight and in case of adds. Towers are a good way to participate in the effort without being an army, you can take it with a full group and you feel valuable for your realm.

I know the server is playing the nostalgia card but i ask you to reconsider switching to NF, maybe make a poll to take the temperature i'm pretty sure OF would still win anyway but i'm curious by how much. I feel like RvR which is the core of the game is currently not in a great state on Phoenix and the server population benefits more on the incapacity of other servers than real qualities eventhough there are some. Please don't rely on a good launch and keep building/improving. Also maybe i'm wrong and you can make OF map works but this will require some important changes anyway.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:27 PM by Cadebrennus

Agreed. NNF keeps, ruined keeps, and ruins were a lot of fun to fight in. Ruined keeps and ruins in particular were great for solo and smallman play.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:39 PM by Slithic

These are still able to be played .. on the live servers.

This is 1.65 SI.

No.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:59 PM by opossum12

Slithic wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 9:39 PM
These are still able to be played .. on the live servers.

This is 1.65 SI.

No.

This isn’t 1.65, it is a custom server basef on 1.65, I tend to think that we are quite far from it atm

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:02 PM by cuuchulain79

I feel like NF would be fun.

Hell, even opening the portal to Atlantis would be fun...as long as feather system comes too...don't want any stolen Cloudsongs :-)

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:03 PM by defiasbandit

cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:02 PM
I feel like NF would be fun.

Hell, even opening the portal to Atlantis would be fun...as long as feather system comes too...don't want any stolen Cloudsongs :-)

Phoenix will one day soar to the lost isles of Atlantis.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:10 PM by opossum12

OF is just so bad, I challenge someone to come up with one good logical argument in favor of OF

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:11 PM by Eodis

cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:02 PM
I feel like NF would be fun.

Hell, even opening the portal to Atlantis would be fun...as long as feather system comes too...don't want any stolen Cloudsongs :-)

Yeah i would also like TOA, but i know a lot of people don't like it and don't want it. Bringing just NF sounds like a good compromise to me and could be a great improvement to RvR. Prove me wrong but i have an hard time finding good points in OF over NF at least in the current state.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:13 PM by defiasbandit

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
OF is just so bad, I challenge someone to come up with one good logical argument in favor of OF

I know a guy.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:32 PM by The Skies Asunder

NF would certainly be an improvement for the long term, IMO. The tower system for DF control was a nice change as well.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:49 PM by Ardri

OF is generally fine as the population will get much smaller eventually. The insta ports always being open to two realms and never having to boat is very nice. NF was just too large with a smaller pop.

That being said, the OF keeps are absolutely awful. The NF keeps are vastly superior. Also wish we had the NF bridges with ladders. Those were awesome for outplaying people.

If only we could combine NF keeps/bridges into OF insta ports/no boats...that would be the best of both worlds imo.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 11:01 PM by cuuchulain79

Just guessing here...but I think OF appeals more to nostalgia...the 'good old fights.' I think there's an association of ToA/excessive pve grinding with NF...and the whole water/diving aspect.

I actually had a lot of fun in NF...pretty dynamic open world warfare.

That being said...if the finickeyness of ToA was removed so that it was 'doable' in a reasonable time...I think it would add depth and fun too. More unique character builds...not everybody running around in perfect 200/75/26/11 templates. There seems to be a general wish of soloing being a more viable option for non skald/sneaks...and ToA would open that door up I think.

In Homer Simpson voice, "Shaaaaades of miiiiiist mmmmmm"

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:03 AM by Vlare

As if we don't have to manage enough potions. Nerid potions will be another fun one to handle :_) / pay for.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:05 AM by labova

I'd take the NF keeps in a heartbeat, but I actually prefer OF for the zones etc. The keeps are awful though.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:07 AM by Cadebrennus

Water that you could dive and swim in is the only thing I truly hated about NF. Instead of water being a tactical barrier it became an exploitable mechanic.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:11 AM by opossum12

Prevent diving in water.

I mean the only two good zones in all of NF are breifine and jamtland. Cruachan gorge isn’t terrible. Every other zone is poop, Emain included because people port there and it’s super crowded.

Odin’s is terrible because the second you step off the road you run into million of mobs.

Or just freakin delete the aggro mob
s from odins already

Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:27 AM by Eodis

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:11 AM
Prevent diving in water.

I mean the only two good zones in all of NF are breifine and jamtland. Cruachan gorge isn’t terrible. Every other zone is poop, Emain included because people port there and it’s super crowded.

Odin’s is terrible because the second you step off the road you run into million of mobs.

Or just freakin delete the aggro mob
s from odins already

I think you mean OF and yes I 100% agree. Most played maps are Emain/Odin/Hadrian/Pennine/Jamtland/Breifine and as you pointed 2/6 are good : Breifine and Jamtland. The 4 others suck (Eventhough Odin is interesting for stealthers because you can hide easily). The rest usually don't see many actions and is more PvE oriented. Cruachan gorge is nice as well but usually people don't go that deep or they stay at the east border.

I can't see myself playing for months with these maps.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:40 AM by Darknecromancer1

It’s way too early in the server’s life cycle to be making any calls for major change. The vast majority of players are not even 50 yet. The major differential here is that speed to 50 is accelerated but that doesn’t mean that guild development, friendship bonding, etc is at that point yet. Those personalities that develop were the backbone of what made OF so great. I remember on Alb Merlin, our guild Angelic Fury was one of the few guilds 100% dedicated to protecting the realm and would trek the 20 minute run out to pennine to defend at all times no matter where we were. Over time, guild personalities and play styles will become more diverse and the Emain AMG Zerg won’t be the only fight available.

Old frontiers is a vastly better play field than NF where everything became too spread out — not enough flash points to fight over. Yes, fights between realms became more fair and equalized but that doesn’t equate to fun. Forced balance systems are never fun — the reason this game thrived as a 3 realm system was because of the balance players created themselves. That will happen here with time. We’re just scraping the surface.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 3:11 AM by lukedeavenport

I relish the idea of NF keeps in OF zones.

I agree that the server population might go down a bit eventually, which would replicate the problem of live. It might be hard to implement though, not sure how that would work on a technical level.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 4:08 AM by thurisaz

Eodis wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:27 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 12:11 AM
Prevent diving in water.

I mean the only two good zones in all of NF are breifine and jamtland. Cruachan gorge isn’t terrible. Every other zone is poop, Emain included because people port there and it’s super crowded.

Odin’s is terrible because the second you step off the road you run into million of mobs.

Or just freakin delete the aggro mob
s from odins already

I think you mean OF and yes I 100% agree. Most played maps are Emain/Odin/Hadrian/Pennine/Jamtland/Breifine and as you pointed 2/6 are good : Breifine and Jamtland. The 4 others suck (Eventhough Odin is interesting for stealthers because you can hide easily). The rest usually don't see many actions and is more PvE oriented. Cruachan gorge is nice as well but usually people don't go that deep or they stay at the east border.

I can't see myself playing for months with these maps.

those are just battleground maps but yeah, why you think so many ppl soloed in bgs?
was bout to say ... that kid confusing OF n NF . ? ?? the fk

just play a skald or a minstrel and OF is fun , otherwise a waste a time. if speed charges are aavailable or 204% speed horses ...but
rvr doesn't work with pve maps , 1 point of entry/ 1 point of exit, map design for pve , not large scale rvr.

which, is why, ppl stayed so long in battlegrounds(thidranki, molvik) or preferred them ...dont need 15 old frontiers maps to satisfy what 1 single battleground map does.

all classic daoc was , in 03' was molvik on crack cocaine! eventually all action has to funnel into 1 place. NF succeeded at being a zone , rather than pve maps . it also introduced dynamic objectives , which helped to compliment the terrain. epic design.

also live introduced cathal valley BG in 2007.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:21 AM by thurisaz

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
OF is just so bad, I challenge someone to come up with one good logical argument in favor of OF

here's my logical argument: if you knew how to play, you'd enjoy rvr anywhere ...
while I agree it's not as good for large scale warfare , doesn't mean it's bad..unless you mean porting around etc , but still not bad . learn to play, noob!

Fri 15 Feb 2019 7:37 AM by imamo

very logical indeed

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:28 AM by dudis

While i do enjoy the nostalgia as much as the next guy and really like many of the OF zones, NF is simply better for RvR, especially on a crowded server like this one.

I'm also one of those guys that think ToA offers a supperior gameplay experience due to the faster combat, more abilities, more interesting items and template options etc. ToA also turned some mediocre classes into personal favorites. I mean what's cooler than a Warden using ML-styles at cap melee speed?

Everyone just had access to more abilities and counter-abilites and it made the game better IMO.

My perfect DAoC server would be 2007 era or so (about the time of the original dragon campaign) just as they started making TOA easier, only needing credit to get artifacts, buying books for BP etc, but before Glass.

That said, im enjoying this server now, as the by far best option currently available and also way better than what Live became in the mid 2010's

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:30 AM by inoeth

I think most people who wanted of zones so badly just recall the "good old times" but in fact of maps are really awefull designed with all the mobs, steep hills and long ways to run. Also the keeps are very bad... You cant either defend it properly or they are nearly unraidable (when hibs defend).
Nf had so much more to do in, looked better and brought some nice dynamics with it.

Btw as far as i know of keeps are hardcoded into the maps so i think its not possible to get nf keeps into of.... Also because nf keeps are much bigge and wouldnt fit on the small of keep hills.

Imo we should give nf a try, maybe do it as an event on weekends so everyone can try it out.
Should be easy since you have to port into nf zones anyway

Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:42 AM by Ceen

The OF maps are much better than NF with the boats and all that stuff.
You will need 3k+ players to fill NF at least a bit and that's not what the population looks like in 1-2 years.

I enjoy the old feeling of running to amg zerging all the way to mmg and back

If you don't run the main road you will find non zerg fights everywhere just as a hint

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:24 PM by opossum12

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:42 AM
The OF maps are much better than NF with the boats and all that stuff.
You will need 3k+ players to fill NF at least a bit and that's not what the population looks like in 1-2 years.

I enjoy the old feeling of running to amg zerging all the way to mmg and back
If you don't run the main road you will find non zerg fights everywhere just as a hint

I wish we could actually do that, but when you do go off the road you need to dodge the 1847483929 mobs the devs decided to put there.

OF was nice when server pop (in beta) was at 3-500 hundred players. With 3k+ players it’s just a mess.

NF, according to Uthred, would take 6 months of development, so that’s not even a possibility for an event.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:25 PM by opossum12

thurisaz wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:21 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
OF is just so bad, I challenge someone to come up with one good logical argument in favor of OF

here's my logical argument: if you knew how to play, you'd enjoy rvr anywhere ...
while I agree it's not as good for large scale warfare , doesn't mean it's bad..unless you mean porting around etc , but still not bad . learn to play, noob!

You must be the smart one in your trailer park, the one that breaks the 90 iq ceiling!

Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:52 PM by Kreyth

You should start a survey like :

1) Yes i want NF
2) Yes i want NF & ToA (why not at all? chain galla is soo boring ... more content but more work from admins)
3) No, let's keep Old Frontier for nostalgia

I don't mean that you should follow the result but it's a good tool to know the community's global expectation.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 2:11 PM by Word

My God, no. I can't believe anyone would want NF. If you desire immense amounts of open space with nobody around, go to live.

Fri 15 Feb 2019 3:34 PM by Tritri

NF Map are indeed far superior, but it's not the server to do this

Fri 15 Feb 2019 10:32 PM by Luluko

While I dont want NF I always hated boating and port break from towers, I think some aggro mobs in OF could be either moved to the sites or removed like in Odins or those west of fensalir you can pretty much just run on the road there if you dont wanna run into aggro mobs. Also walls are a pain to get out if they are camped you have no other way to go and with the task system you either have to brute force through which can be hard without enough people or you have to wait until the realmtask is somewhere else. I am not sure if the nf keeps would work in OF they could be a little too big and they are a pain in the ass if you arent on the defending site hibs would love them probably but they are already hard enough to beat in OF keeps.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:39 AM by thurisaz

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:25 PM
thurisaz wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:21 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:10 PM
OF is just so bad, I challenge someone to come up with one good logical argument in favor of OF

here's my logical argument: if you knew how to play, you'd enjoy rvr anywhere ...
while I agree it's not as good for large scale warfare , doesn't mean it's bad..unless you mean porting around etc , but still not bad . learn to play, noob!

You must be the smart one in your trailer park, the one that breaks the 90 iq ceiling!

go play live

Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:22 AM by thurisaz

dudis wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:28 AM
While i do enjoy the nostalgia as much as the next guy and really like many of the OF zones, NF is simply better for RvR, especially on a crowded server like this one.

I'm also one of those guys that think ToA offers a supperior gameplay experience due to the faster combat, more abilities, more interesting items and template options etc. ToA also turned some mediocre classes into personal favorites. I mean what's cooler than a Warden using ML-styles at cap melee speed?

Everyone just had access to more abilities and counter-abilites and it made the game better IMO.

My perfect DAoC server would be 2007 era or so (about the time of the original dragon campaign) just as they started making TOA easier, only needing credit to get artifacts, buying books for BP etc, but before Glass.

That said, im enjoying this server now, as the by far best option currently available and also way better than what Live became in the mid 2010's

I think you got the years confused, live was a bunch of clusters in 2007 , it was just daoc classic or toa : Devon , Killibury, Tintigal, Caerleon, Bossiney (classic) and finally Ywain in 2009, which was the same and went strong until 2015. I played classic and Devon , but I remember transferring to toa soon after classic died, and everyone was collecting glass and afrits , doing powerlevels at 1 Rassa pads ml1, ywain was a good solution and brought new life to daoc for over 5 years. in fact, ywain was lives strongest years from 2009-2015.

Astral ml10 items became quite popular too soon after the dragon items , as well as the epic dungeon( tusc glacier, galladoria, caer sidi) new loot tables . then as ywain progressed , passage of conflict around 2012 got new items.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:47 AM by thurisaz

dudis wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 8:28 AM
While i do enjoy the nostalgia as much as the next guy and really like many of the OF zones, NF is simply better for RvR, especially on a crowded server like this one.

I'm also one of those guys that think ToA offers a supperior gameplay experience due to the faster combat, more abilities, more interesting items and template options etc. ToA also turned some mediocre classes into personal favorites. I mean what's cooler than a Warden using ML-styles at cap melee speed?

Everyone just had access to more abilities and counter-abilites and it made the game better IMO.

My perfect DAoC server would be 2007 era or so (about the time of the original dragon campaign) just as they started making TOA easier, only needing credit to get artifacts, buying books for BP etc, but before Glass.

That said, im enjoying this server now, as the by far best option currently available and also way better than what Live became in the mid 2010's

yep from 2008 + on Devon, after classic died
100s of ppl in Oceanus running artifact encounter credit , the old SI epic dungeons got new loot tables, along with ml10. 2007-2009 , best times.

or ppl powerleving @ ML1 rassa pads , saving up glass , right as Ywain kicked off I remember farming afrits in volcanus . then glass quests were introduced when Rassa was nerfed.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 9:23 AM by Infernus2k

I was really hyped for OF, but going Emain today is just aweful. I can't see myself play for long in OF.
Especially with this high population theres no way around NF. For me that was what the game made so enjoyable back then. The large scale combat and keep fights were amazing.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 12:10 PM by necrolove1

I think OF has it's charm and NF has it's charm. Would be nice to see a system where OF and NF cycled out every 3 months. spice it up every 3 months or so

Sat 16 Feb 2019 1:00 PM by opossum12

thurisaz wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 2:39 AM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 1:25 PM
thurisaz wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Feb 2019 5:21 AM
here's my logical argument: if you knew how to play, you'd enjoy rvr anywhere ...
while I agree it's not as good for large scale warfare , doesn't mean it's bad..unless you mean porting around etc , but still not bad . learn to play, noob!

You must be the smart one in your trailer park, the one that breaks the 90 iq ceiling!

go play live

Go play uthgard? They have the same pop and uthgard has the advantage of catering to the anal persons that think OF > all

Sat 16 Feb 2019 1:07 PM by Sorkar

For me OF is purely nostalgia. I didnt like how big NF was, but I did like the terrain, how flat it was, and not nearly as many trees. I also liked being able to knock down walls, a siege was actually a siege, you had options in both defense and sieging. In old frontiers a keep siege or defense is hurry up and wait to either farm or get farmed. Though I do remember one time in OF back in the day we were defending bled and there were a ton of mids and albs, and we had like 10+ catapults set up in the keep and GT assisting in front of the gate, that was fun. The main thing I didnt like about NF was the size of the zones, the boats, and the underwater stuff.

And as far as ToA is concerned, if this server does go ToA I am out. I am a casual player at best and it is tough to keep up with all the stuff that comes with ToA. Just thinking about it makes it seem daunting as hell. I still remember Mythic saying on Camelot Herald that they would never increase the level cap above 50, 50 and thats it! Then it was like a week later and ToA came out and its like "oh by the way, we arent raising the level cap but here are 10 new master levels that you have to do to pretty much be able to compete." "oh by the way, those awesome new artifacts you are getting for your new templates, you have to farm the books for them and then once you do finally get them activated, you have to level them too."

Sat 16 Feb 2019 4:33 PM by Teraquan

NF > OF any day.
The Boat system made soloing super fun, you always had places to go.
In OF you can only zerg or run with an 8man, as a solo you just get farmed.
They implemented insta ports on live to Agramon and that destroyed the solo community.
If the server wants to stay with OF the admins need to find a way to implement a good solo experience.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 5:57 PM by Shadanwolf

I agree with OP. For me TOWERS are a big deal.Visibles can do more than group and roam.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 6:33 PM by Leandrys

I agree a lot with OP too, it's nice to see OF, it brings backs good memories but step by step, all of the damned flaws of this map get back to you and the shock quickly gets brutal, OF is bad, freaking bad, it's not bad in everything but while I have 10000+ hours on DAOC, I do not see myself able to play this for more than a few months, there s not real interest in it, there are a lot of reasons why Mythic tried something with NF and while they've partially failed with boats for example, it was also such a joy to evolve in it compared to that cranked and awkward OF... A huge part of population will quickly lose interest in RvR because of its weaknesses, and in the end, RvR is DAOC.

Even the battleground's maps are a disaster, too many creeps aggroing everywhere, too small, poorly designed CKs, it's bad, freaking bad, I love Phoenix, it's awesome for so many things but OF will damage it badly on the long term.

I hope the staff thinks twice about that choice they're good, involved and dedicated people, hope they won't waste their fantastic work on the long term, i'd pay myself server's whole cost to see it finally getting NF, and I m serious about it.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 10:37 PM by lefo

The New Frontiers was the sole reason i quit this game years ago. NF is a terible, ugly, flat green thing that pretty much destroyed the game together with toa.

Sun 17 Feb 2019 11:41 PM by Eodis

Sorkar wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 1:07 PM
For me OF is purely nostalgia. I didnt like how big NF was, but I did like the terrain, how flat it was, and not nearly as many trees. I also liked being able to knock down walls, a siege was actually a siege, you had options in both defense and sieging. In old frontiers a keep siege or defense is hurry up and wait to either farm or get farmed. Though I do remember one time in OF back in the day we were defending bled and there were a ton of mids and albs, and we had like 10+ catapults set up in the keep and GT assisting in front of the gate, that was fun. The main thing I didnt like about NF was the size of the zones, the boats, and the underwater stuff.

And as far as ToA is concerned, if this server does go ToA I am out. I am a casual player at best and it is tough to keep up with all the stuff that comes with ToA. Just thinking about it makes it seem daunting as hell. I still remember Mythic saying on Camelot Herald that they would never increase the level cap above 50, 50 and thats it! Then it was like a week later and ToA came out and its like "oh by the way, we arent raising the level cap but here are 10 new master levels that you have to do to pretty much be able to compete." "oh by the way, those awesome new artifacts you are getting for your new templates, you have to farm the books for them and then once you do finally get them activated, you have to level them too."

Well it's a mmorpg, most of them have an end game goal/progression and regular new content. I don't see how TOA was so horrible ML was easily doable in bg and bring something interesting in RvR, artifacts as well. Sure you needed to farm it but how is it so much worse than farming SI dungeons ? I'll never understand classic maximalists. Anyway the point here is not about ToA or others expansions it's about the RvR map.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:05 AM by necrolove1

Eodis wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 11:41 PM
Sorkar wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 1:07 PM
For me OF is purely nostalgia. I didnt like how big NF was, but I did like the terrain, how flat it was, and not nearly as many trees. I also liked being able to knock down walls, a siege was actually a siege, you had options in both defense and sieging. In old frontiers a keep siege or defense is hurry up and wait to either farm or get farmed. Though I do remember one time in OF back in the day we were defending bled and there were a ton of mids and albs, and we had like 10+ catapults set up in the keep and GT assisting in front of the gate, that was fun. The main thing I didnt like about NF was the size of the zones, the boats, and the underwater stuff.

And as far as ToA is concerned, if this server does go ToA I am out. I am a casual player at best and it is tough to keep up with all the stuff that comes with ToA. Just thinking about it makes it seem daunting as hell. I still remember Mythic saying on Camelot Herald that they would never increase the level cap above 50, 50 and thats it! Then it was like a week later and ToA came out and its like "oh by the way, we arent raising the level cap but here are 10 new master levels that you have to do to pretty much be able to compete." "oh by the way, those awesome new artifacts you are getting for your new templates, you have to farm the books for them and then once you do finally get them activated, you have to level them too."

Well it's a mmorpg, most of them have an end game goal/progression and regular new content. I don't see how TOA was so horrible ML was easily doable in bg and bring something interesting in RvR, artifacts as well. Sure you needed to farm it but how is it so much worse than farming SI dungeons ? I'll never understand classic maximalists. Anyway the point here is not about ToA or others expansions it's about the RvR map.

The main problem with TOA is that it put way too large of a seperation between a new player and an experianced player turning off many many many incoming people. The template you needed to compete was a TOA temp, and you NEEDED a TOA template, took a very long time to amass if you wanted to 8man as a new player forget it, if you wanted to small man as a new player forget it, if you wanted to solo as a new player forget it. you have to grind out that template, TOA took way to much from RVR.

SI dungeons while grindy in their own aspect, had work arounds, you could still be competitive, sure others had an edge, but not a jetback (TOA temp)

but back to the topic at hand, I honestly things the devs need to find out a way to..

A: Redo realm tasks that's getting old fast

B: Incentize keep defense ( dunno what they can do here, the OF keep system really was/is flawed, NF keeps were vastly superior. )

C: Consider doing something different. Maybe 3 months on and off of OF and NF that way people have different things to look forward to.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:14 AM by Sepplord

Eodis wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Feb 2019 11:41 PM
Well it's a mmorpg, most of them have an end game goal/progression and regular new content. I don't see how TOA was so horrible ML was easily doable in bg and bring something interesting in RvR, artifacts as well. Sure you needed to farm it but how is it so much worse than farming SI dungeons ? I'll never understand classic maximalists. Anyway the point here is not about ToA or others expansions it's about the RvR map.

The difference between someone in normal temp and someone in SI-Raid temp boiled down to having a few points more in less important resists, or having a weapon with a slightly slower attackspeed for slightly bigger frontload.
You are right that Raiding was similar as bad, but noone really NEEDED the stuff.

The difference between someone in normal temp and someone with TOA-temp and MLs???
I guess i don't have to list everything TOA brought, the huge difference should be clear.

And adding to that, loads of people that loved RvR and hated PVE had eventually set up multiple chars that were "done" for RvR. They could log onto what toon was needed for their nightly RvR-runs.
Suddenly an update forced them to put more PvE hours into each character to have them ready. And not a few hours here and there. Depending on classes and which Artifacts were "must-have" people were looking at an HUGE amount of hours for each char.
With the same amount of hours they could have levelled and fully-temped multiple chars before, and now they need to spend that to just maintain ONE of their "RvR-ready" characters...

Mon 18 Feb 2019 2:27 PM by Shadanwolf

The mindless....I mean M-I-N-D-L-E-S-S grinding(to get equipment) TOA required was simply awful THAT KILLED MOST OF DAOC population.NF with a revitalized frontier with an emphasis on sieging was outstanding.THAT is what I miss.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 4:14 PM by Mancave

Agreed. NF was better in many ways and kept everyone happy. 8v8 could go to agra, bridges for campers/stealthers and keeps were FAR better than the old keeps.

/signed

Mon 18 Feb 2019 5:00 PM by Pirhana7

I enjoy OF much more. OF has a huge sense of pride for your lands, It also has much more of an invading feel, and that feel that when you see an enemy you NEED to stop them for trespassing.

NF has more of an everything is up for grabs feels, even tho each side has its home territory it still doesn't give that sense of homelands pride OF does. NF you just teleport to keeps and fight on the bridges... you also have to travel far to get to action in the enemy lands. the big thing I always thought that would have made NF so much better is to remove the ocean and Agromon in the center and make it so the 3 realms last keeps were very close so the action would be right there and non speed / stealth classes wouldn't have to venture out with no safety to fall back to. I think it would have been a great spot to push to invade.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:16 PM by Word

NF is huge, way too big. As mentioned porting around is lame.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:42 PM by Kyosji

So this is what I see in this thread.

OF is good for the short run, but a majority here seems to believe it will easily get stale after a few months (Which I agree with)

NF was too big, but the towers and BG made it vastly superior. The size and flatness are what some people are complaining about. I don't particularly agree with this, but considering how Phoenix is extremely buggy when it comes to hills, would it really be a bad thing in the long run?

People are bringing up ToA, which has nothing to do with NF, so not sure why it keeps being brought up. Even so, this isn't live. Admins could implement changes to make ToA more enjoyable to the people complaining about the grindyness of it, such as disabling books and just giving items, of which i think they ended up doing in live, or just not implement the ToA equipment in general if it's going to cause an issue.

This is how I see it. despite the obvious issue of development time, the admins have the 'luxury' of testing out all of this and seeing what runs better with their population. I was excited to come in and play Phoenix, but getting into Thid for the first time, I was extremely disappointed. I wasn't disappointed in the devs, but in the BG itself. It's always dead. People keep telling me there's always ~ 40-50 people in the BG at any time, but what people say and what I experience are completely different. Last week I spent every night for at least an hour either running around the BG or watching the gates of some enemy realms keep. I think the most I ever seen was a single full group running around briefly, but for the most part the BG was empty except a few stealthers. Some nights I would stare at a Mid door and see it open up once in an hour. There's really no competitive reason for anyone to be in the low level BGs. It does nothing for the realm. It's just sad. NF changed that, and put up a way more enjoyable zone where people loved it so much, they disabled EXP on their characters so they would never leave the area, and there was actually seige and keep wars in them that affected the realm. I miss that.

RVR keep and tower fighting was also super fun. It was easy to travel, and their was more notice of action happening with tower and keep siege icons. The ability to port to closer keeps as long as you owned the towers was also an added bonus. It gave enemy realms a real foot hold in your territories, and made it worth fighting. As it is now, I'm bored out of my mind with RVR. The only thing worth doing is the realm tasks, which in the long run is very limiting on what one could actually do in RVR. It's not free play, it's designed play. You're not really in control of it, the server is by announcing the tasks.

I can see everyones point, but OF is not designed to last. It's an easily forgettable aspect of this game, and people will quickly get bored of it. In the future, this game will need something like NF, or at least the BGs of NF to fill out the near non existent BGs as they are today that will fill the desires of both parties.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:56 PM by lukedeavenport

Kyosji wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:42 PM
I was excited to come in and play Phoenix, but getting into Thid for the first time, I was extremely disappointed. I wasn't disappointed in the devs, but in the BG itself. It's always dead. People keep telling me there's always ~ 40-50 people in the BG at any time, but what people say and what I experience are completely different.

This has been my experience as well, I hope that as more people ding 50 on a toon or two that they'll start locking a char in Thid and populate it a lot more.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 8:01 PM by defiasbandit

Why do you enjoy thidranki and low level RvR?

Mon 18 Feb 2019 8:07 PM by Kyosji

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 8:01 PM
Why do you enjoy thidranki and low level RvR?

People are complaining about how big NF is. The NF version of the BGs were just smaller scale and felt more balanced skill wise. You had everything you could do in NF, but in a manageable size. You still had keep and tower siege warfare, but didn't have to run across the world to get to battles. Also limited in the meat train express routes you usually see in RvR.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 10:21 PM by arc_X

my 2 cents...

I would definitely prefer NF over OF and would love to see a poll on this as well.

That said, I also would love to see ToA to help fill in some of the downtime I feel will come after a few months of this server being up. Worried this will end up another super low pop thing if there isn't some kind of longer term content / goals, but here's to hoping I am wrong on that one.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:29 PM by djegu

Old frontier is good, you can play with the field, you need to be more aware of your environment.
With the population of the server OF are way big for everybody to enjoy the rvr, I think they need to implement different task in different zone at the same time to spread out the zerg.

Also they need to fix that zerg situation, more people people in the zone ? less rps.

New Frontier were beautiful and keep were awesome, but the flat aren't really nice, people will see zerg or 8man way more far than currently and they will avoid it.

Mon 18 Feb 2019 11:59 PM by sprinkle

Honestly old frontiers is too big and its currently too zergy

Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:29 AM by Eodis

Kyosji wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:42 PM
So this is what I see in this thread.

OF is good for the short run, but a majority here seems to believe it will easily get stale after a few months (Which I agree with)

NF was too big, but the towers and BG made it vastly superior. The size and flatness are what some people are complaining about. I don't particularly agree with this, but considering how Phoenix is extremely buggy when it comes to hills, would it really be a bad thing in the long run?

People are bringing up ToA, which has nothing to do with NF, so not sure why it keeps being brought up. Even so, this isn't live. Admins could implement changes to make ToA more enjoyable to the people complaining about the grindyness of it, such as disabling books and just giving items, of which i think they ended up doing in live, or just not implement the ToA equipment in general if it's going to cause an issue.

This is how I see it. despite the obvious issue of development time, the admins have the 'luxury' of testing out all of this and seeing what runs better with their population. I was excited to come in and play Phoenix, but getting into Thid for the first time, I was extremely disappointed. I wasn't disappointed in the devs, but in the BG itself. It's always dead. People keep telling me there's always ~ 40-50 people in the BG at any time, but what people say and what I experience are completely different. Last week I spent every night for at least an hour either running around the BG or watching the gates of some enemy realms keep. I think the most I ever seen was a single full group running around briefly, but for the most part the BG was empty except a few stealthers. Some nights I would stare at a Mid door and see it open up once in an hour. There's really no competitive reason for anyone to be in the low level BGs. It does nothing for the realm. It's just sad. NF changed that, and put up a way more enjoyable zone where people loved it so much, they disabled EXP on their characters so they would never leave the area, and there was actually seige and keep wars in them that affected the realm. I miss that.

RVR keep and tower fighting was also super fun. It was easy to travel, and their was more notice of action happening with tower and keep siege icons. The ability to port to closer keeps as long as you owned the towers was also an added bonus. It gave enemy realms a real foot hold in your territories, and made it worth fighting. As it is now, I'm bored out of my mind with RVR. The only thing worth doing is the realm tasks, which in the long run is very limiting on what one could actually do in RVR. It's not free play, it's designed play. You're not really in control of it, the server is by announcing the tasks.

I can see everyones point, but OF is not designed to last. It's an easily forgettable aspect of this game, and people will quickly get bored of it. In the future, this game will need something like NF, or at least the BGs of NF to fill out the near non existent BGs as they are today that will fill the desires of both parties.

You summarized most of my feelings yeah. I didn't talk about BGs but it's also a valid concern. They are terrible right now : maps are too small and so far it's either full of stealthers and/or zerg fest as well with one side completely destroying the others.

Regarding ToA if people dislike the farming part it's something that can be easily changed with the feather system. On a certain level i find this complaint really hypocrit as a huge part of the phoenix population is focused on PvE with 300+ people doing raids every day and sometimes a couple of time a day, plus an other big part of the pop just leveling multiple characters so forgive me if i don't take seriously enough the part "we don't want endless PvE we want RvR". Also i liked the way it made every character unique when you build your template. Sure a lot of players were using similar artifacts but you really had a way to play something different. Broadswords announced new servers coming eventhough they are full of shit and it's coming in more than a year if i can chose between SI + OF and NF + TOA i'm clearly more for the second option. The problem right now imo is that there is a large portion of the population who dislike both what ywain currently is and the emptyness of OF. For us the glory of DAoC is in between and there is no server for us. I don't want to force the people enjoying Phoenix in this state to move into something else but maybe there is a way to make everyone happy keeping the good of both worlds.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 7:13 AM by teiloh

I despised NF and its the reason why a lot of people I know quit, and why I eventually quit.

1. Everything is homogenized. You feel like you're in the same two flat zones always. The zones don't have the character, if flawed, of OF zones.
2. Too spread out. Most of NF is just running around in circles in flat boring zones trying to find things to fight. In OF action is funneled through certain features, if imperfectly so.
3. Towers. I think the concept is good, but there were too many of them.
4. Transport. Too much porting and too many places that boats could originate from and end up at. Most enemies could be anywhere at any time, this spreads action way too thin.
5. RAs. NF RAs are over-homogenized, watered down trash. OF RAs had their problems, but I'd rather go with OF and then fix in the NF direction rather than the other way around.

However OF does have problems with being too cramped, NF was just too much in the opposite direction. I did like the new keeps however, some of the features like bridges and variations in terrain. I liked the realm war map. I like the fact that the maps themselves were larger. It's just the logistics of it that sucked.

As for TOA, we're not trying to sell boxes here so a lot of the horrible shit can be cut out. These changes would go a long way to get the most out of TOA content:

1. Artifacts account shareable. You won't be compelled to get the same ****ing artifact 10 times, but you can if you want to. Maybe even have some of the artifacts drop, on a very rare % chance, as a random drop from any enemy like "uniques" in action rpgs, on top of the encounters. Would give people grinding something to get excited about.
2. Remove the goddamn scrolls or just have a single drop. What a pain.
3. Make only 8 out of 10 ML steps required. Or make some ML encounters account-wide credit. Or add drops/items that give ML credit. Something to make it flexible.
4. Put in ML/Art exp from RvR/feathers/bps in on day one.
5. ML balance review.
6. Balancing artifacts, no redundant/weak/weird ones.
7. Adding Phoenix hit-code changes for high-level PVE content.
8. Bounded RNG for ToA bonuses. This should go for all itemization really ... only 2-3 pieces should ever have certain bonuses, but in 1/3rd to 1/2 of current cap chunks. This way templating will be less of a nightmare almost requiring a 3rd party app.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:41 PM by Shadanwolf

Word wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:16 PM
NF is huge, way too big. As mentioned porting around is lame.

BIG is good. Gives people(visibles) places to go and not be discovered. Makes zergs more difficult.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 5:01 PM by BigX

Eodis wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:11 PM
cuuchulain79 wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Feb 2019 10:02 PM
I feel like NF would be fun.

Hell, even opening the portal to Atlantis would be fun...as long as feather system comes too...don't want any stolen Cloudsongs :-)

Yeah i would also like TOA, but i know a lot of people don't like it and don't want it. Bringing just NF sounds like a good compromise to me and could be a great improvement to RvR. Prove me wrong but i have an hard time finding good points in OF over NF at least in the current state.

lets be honest. only really bad players that wont be able to compete at all anymore would say anything against TOA. it made the game a billion times better in every single aspect. regarding the OF vs NF thing, well it depends, there is circumstances in which NF is actually more zergy than OF cos the majority of the population is concentrated in an even smaller area. (every realm owning a front keep they can port to in a single zone) id be totally cool with NF however if agramon was added aswell and declared an 8v8 zone with strict and enforced no adding rules.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:22 PM by opossum12

Here is how I would personally implement NF

1. Reduce the size of NF. While OF is cramped, NF might be a bit too big considering the movement speed limitations we have on Phoenix.
2. Reduce porting. Can't port in keeps. It doesn't make sense that you attack a keep and suddenly defenders just start popping in. Should focus on boating around to get somewhere. It's just odd that players can teleport into keeps.
3. Do not allow diving in water, add water breath to speed classes (Minstrel, bard and skald) so that crossing rivers isn't the biggest pain in the butt.
4. Have Agramon as center island that connects the three realms.
5. Might want to reduce the tower per keep to 2 (instead of 4). Might want to rethink the purpose of towers if porting to keep doesn't work. Maybe it degrades the keep level (-3 levels per tower you take).

As for ToA, the combat is more dynamic and some abilities are very nice. However it's another level of balance to juggle and do we want to get into it right now?

Wed 20 Feb 2019 10:46 AM by BigX

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:22 PM
Here is how I would personally implement NF

1. Reduce the size of NF. While OF is cramped, NF might be a bit too big considering the movement speed limitations we have on Phoenix.
2. Reduce porting. Can't port in keeps. It doesn't make sense that you attack a keep and suddenly defenders just start popping in. Should focus on boating around to get somewhere. It's just odd that players can teleport into keeps.
3. Do not allow diving in water, add water breath to speed classes (Minstrel, bard and skald) so that crossing rivers isn't the biggest pain in the butt.
4. Have Agramon as center island that connects the three realms.
5. Might want to reduce the tower per keep to 2 (instead of 4). Might want to rethink the purpose of towers if porting to keep doesn't work. Maybe it degrades the keep level (-3 levels per tower you take).

As for ToA, the combat is more dynamic and some abilities are very nice. However it's another level of balance to juggle and do we want to get into it right now?

with TOA all the custom changes made on this server would basically not be nessecary and the game would be way more balanced than it currently is :p on top of that the skill ceiling would be infinity times higher and the game would be way more fun to play.

Wed 20 Feb 2019 12:18 PM by Word

Shadanwolf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:41 PM
Word wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:16 PM
NF is huge, way too big. As mentioned porting around is lame.

BIG is good. Gives people(visibles) places to go and not be discovered. Makes zergs more difficult.

Big turns into a ghost town quickly, pass on that.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:29 AM by Shadanwolf

Word wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Feb 2019 12:18 PM
Shadanwolf wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 4:41 PM
Word wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Feb 2019 7:16 PM
NF is huge, way too big. As mentioned porting around is lame.

BIG is good. Gives people(visibles) places to go and not be discovered. Makes zergs more difficult.

Big turns into a ghost town quickly, pass on that.

So you would rather have a zerg feast.where skill/tactics and equipment mean nothing ?

Thu 21 Feb 2019 8:11 AM by Jaegaer

Shadanwolf wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:29 AM
So you would rather have a zerg feast.where skill/tactics and equipment mean nothing ?

Lol. He did not say that.

This game does not need NF, it needs new Realm tasks and this is what it will get. NF had some advantages (mainly better keep layout) but it did not prevent zerging at all because just becaus a zone is big does not mean people will not zerg. Even in OF you can easily avoid the zerg - the problem is that it needs some time to establish a real community where people know things - things like "many 8 mans will run Forest Sauvage" or something.

However for all the peeps that claim to hate the zerg and want 8vs8 action - most of them still run the zerg because however much they claim to lust for 8vs8 they lust more for RPees...

And thats another thing that NF will not change.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 8:52 AM by Ceen

Most of the forum heros claiming 8vs8 is needed would log out after 2 weeks of getting farmed anyways.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 9:22 AM by Druth

Shadanwolf wrote: ↑
Thu 21 Feb 2019 2:29 AM
So you would rather have a zerg feast.where skill/tactics and equipment mean nothing ?

DaoC skill was lost 10+ years ago, there are maybe 2 groups out there that can claim any sort of skill and they don't QQ about zerg, they deal with it the best they can understanding that zerg is prefered to dead.