Why give bonus on positionals?

If you can snare and run through with side style AT WILL here, then why give stuns and good damage bonus for achieving a positional?

Is there a counter for this? On live if you back up constantly they cannot side snare.

Had a couple fights awhile back on my 50 arms. I would just try and back up but I was swinging extremely slow, getting evaded 33% of the time, and it was like mike Tyson fighting a 5 year old. I just deleted it.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:00 AM by keen

on live your anytimer has the highest growth rate...
and for sure they can side snare you if you just back paddle.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:04 AM by relvinian

I guess I won't be playing a melee character at all then as im just mediocre and I don't want to spam side styles from the front or run through spamming and I don't want to be destroyed like a child every time I fight.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 3:21 PM by Geek

Giving up is a great message for the kids.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 6:33 PM by Magesty

Why do positionals have bonuses? Really...? I find it hard to believe that you really don’t understand why they do from both a real world and gameplay perspective. If you truly don’t understand I’ll be happy to write a separate post explaining it, but I have a strong suspicion this “question” is just a guise to whine about mechanics that you are unable to cope with, despite the fact that they have been in the game since it’s inception.

If you don’t want to proactively try to land positionals you can backpedal and use the mouse to turn and you should be able to avoid most of your enemy’s attempts.

While doing this you can queue up your own side styles and have a chance to land them defensively.

At some point EA changed the style lines on live to appeal to the lowest common denominator by making the anytimes have the highest growth rates and the game was worse for it. For most lines there was no reason to even use the positionals anymore and it just became a matter of spamming your one ~.81 GR anytime style even while opponents were stunned. This bid for homogenization strikes at the core of what makes DAoC interesting and turns the depth of melee mechanics from a pond to a puddle.

If you are incapable of or just don’t want to adjust to the mechanics it is definitely best to play a caster. In addition there have been several posts recently addressing this issue that might be worth reading.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 7:48 PM by relvinian

Cool. Thanks for explaining to me how someone faces you and does a cheesy maneuver and bypasses 50 shield 44 parry as if it didn't exist while doing side or rear positions from the front arc. And it is fine.

OK so to defend against an exploiter I just need to run backwards and spam side styles to exploit while they exploit.

Got it.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 8:28 PM by Thinal

Jut because somebody can abuse a mechanic doesn't mean that the concept of the intended mechanic is somehow wrong. It's fair to petition for reasonable measure to eliminate the ability to abuse these mechanics, but it's just crybaby peepants to whine about positionals to begin with.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 8:41 PM by Geek

I like ya Relv; I've always liked ya. Best gosh-darned player from Timbuktu to Portland, Maine...or Portland, Oregon for that matter. But man, your opinions sometimes seem to come from frustration of not being able to do something or to understand something, so you advocate for change of it rather than to get in there and really conquer it yourself.

For instance, instead of making this thread out of anger or frustration, grab some melee guildies or friends or realm mates and duel them to learn how to play your particular melee class better. You'll lose a lot, but you'll learn a lot, and then one day, you'll win a lot.

Or you can go this route, which is common. Don't give up. Fight against the dying of the melee light.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 9:35 PM by Cadebrennus

Relvinian, you need to practice more and post less.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 9:47 PM by Magesty

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 7:48 PM
Cool. Thanks for explaining to me how someone faces you and does a cheesy maneuver and bypasses 50 shield 44 parry as if it didn't exist while doing side or rear positions from the front arc. And it is fine.

OK so to defend against an exploiter I just need to run backwards and spam side styles to exploit while they exploit.

Got it.

Here is what I wrote on the topic in a different thread.

"I don’t think anyone is going to argue that being able to get side and back styles off when someone is sticking or facing is a good mechanic, especially since the two players are often at different locations on each other’s screens. It would be one thing if what you were seeing in front of you is what is actually happening server-side but it isn’t. Just last night I was dueling with a friend and messing around with pulling off different positionals and we would have times where our characters were standing still and in different locations. I would be behind him on my screen but on his screen I was in front of him and facing him.

The reality is the game code has some flaws in how it handles and communicates locations. Due to this /face and /stick are imperfect. This has always been the case in DAoC, although it seems to be a little bit more of an issue on freeshards. 17 years later most of the player base knows how the mechanics work and have learned how to use them to their advantage. So we have established an unalterable truth: some flaw in DAoC’s code allows for players to pull off positional styles on other players that are /facing or /stuck, and oftentimes it won’t even appear to the player being struck that their opponent is at their side or back.

How do we cope with this as players? The way I see it you have two realistic options. You can either adapt and learn to use & combat (yes, you can proactively avoid the positionals by backpedaling and mouse looking) the imperfections in /stick and /face or you can not do anything and accept that you are going to get abused and be less effective overall. If you choose the latter it will behoove you to play a character that does not rely on melee at all.

Can the devs do something to tighten up the mechanics? This I do not know, but it does seem like the side arc could be made smaller— although personally I find back styles easier to use on stuck opponents anyways. Either way the issue will not go away entirely.

As for whether or not pulling off positionals takes skill: It certainly does. It is something that requires practice to do consistently, especially if you are going to do it with a live swing timer. If you have to practice movement, mechanics and timing to get better at it it takes skill. Very straightforward definition. As far as I know most competent players don’t even use strafe as a means to pull off positionals. It is all about mouselook and abusing your opponents center point.

I don’t like it either, but it is part of the game. Hopefully it can be improved but it will always be there to some extent. In conclusion: Put up or shut up."

I suggest you take the advice of the other players here and practice melee mechanics with some willing realm mates.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 10:17 PM by depth

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 7:48 PM
Cool. Thanks for explaining to me how someone faces you and does a cheesy maneuver and bypasses 50 shield 44 parry as if it didn't exist while doing side or rear positions from the front arc. And it is fine.

OK so to defend against an exploiter I just need to run backwards and spam side styles to exploit while they exploit.

Got it.

Why are they exploiters? This seems to me like the obvious way to combat in melee given the movement of this game and the incentive for trying for positionals. This is the logical way to manuever in a game where there is no collision. Players are often familiar with this mechanic and will punish you in return. Practice on training dummies, then practice in /duel, then practice in rvr.

Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:36 PM by relvinian

What about lag?

How easy is it to deal with someone with a better ping who is spamming snare and run through and all that stuff when you are 250 ping and they are 50 ping?

I'm just saying that it is something. You cannot say it is nothing.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 12:33 AM by depth

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:36 PM
What about lag?

How easy is it to deal with someone with a better ping who is spamming snare and run through and all that stuff when you are 250 ping and they are 50 ping?

I'm just saying that it is something. You cannot say it is nothing.

The latency could for sure be better here, and I'm sure the Devs are already well aware of these issues. I really don't think anyone can say it couldn't be better. But even on a perfect server with zero lag, people would never stop using this mechanic, so that seems a little irrelevant to bring up.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 1:16 AM by Ganaka

I got hit by a Valewalker stun earlier today before I could even land a hit. He was running straight at me too. Unless he has a skill I don't know about, the stun either came from the side or rear positional. Did I mention he was running straight at me and we were facing each other?

I admit that I'm a lousy melee player. My inability to strafe or turn probably maybe could've prevented it. I'm still stunned (pun intended) that he was able to stun me with a scythe from the front. It is what it is.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 2:24 AM by relvinian

Maybe it is something they can look at. To test classes for example-- you saw a guy for awhile was rocking a champ, with lots of solo kills. I don't actually know how he did it. Never fought him. But was he straffing? I mean the same technique on a friar, a VW, and god knows how many other classes, and that individual player by using these techniques can wtfpown on any class.

People say to learn the skill. But if you need a certain ping to learn the skill, then how much is skill and how much is ping? If it is essentially the same sequence of moves which result in side styles from the front or rear styles when you are /facing them. What is that?

Maybe something can be done. For example after a snare, no style may be used for 4 seconds or whatever. I dunno, im an idiot who knows nothing, but I know what front back and side is.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 3:11 AM by Joc

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 7:48 PM
Cool. Thanks for explaining to me how someone faces you and does a cheesy maneuver and bypasses 50 shield 44 parry as if it didn't exist while doing side or rear positions from the front arc. And it is fine.

OK so to defend against an exploiter I just need to run backwards and spam side styles to exploit while they exploit.

Got it.

It's not exploiting. It's literally part of the game at its core b/c there is no collision detection. It has been addressed in more than one grab bag. Back pedal or mouse turn. 90% of my fights my opponents do not land side or back styles b/c I'm not sticking or facing. I back pedal and mouse turn during my fights while queuing up my own positionals.

If someone is landing side styles on you, you need to be mouse turning and doing straffing/back peddling of your own.

It isn't hard to avoid enemy positionals in DAOC short of being slammed and them using positionals. It never has been. Don't be lazy. Learn from your opponent. Adapt.

Mon 15 Oct 2018 5:21 AM by Cadebrennus

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Oct 2018 11:36 PM
What about lag?

How easy is it to deal with someone with a better ping who is spamming snare and run through and all that stuff when you are 250 ping and they are 50 ping?

I'm just saying that it is something. You cannot say it is nothing.

This same argument applies to first person shooters. Why should a fantasy-based game that also requires skill be any different?

Better that DAOC PvP requires things like positionals and reactionaries rather than the snoozefest which is ESO PvP which is simply mash a rotation of abilities regardless of positioning or what your enemy is doing.

Tue 16 Oct 2018 3:24 AM by Armsmancer

To directly answer the post, they require more setup than an anytime style, and are rewarded accordingly.

Bringing up things like ping are post de facto, and have no bearing on why they were designed. You ask this like Phoenix devs added the bonus. This is in base game. The styles, descriptions, and coding of damage calculation are literally in the installation files when you download this game. Asking devs why its there is like asking some guy with a shitty WoW private server why paladins get rez on his server, it's literally in the base game man why are we having to explain this to you, it is a given.

This is just another whine post because he obviously died to someone who is better than him at a video game, and clearly the devs here need to either boost his class or nerf his enemies so he gets more wins and doesn't feel so bad for the constant losses to a superior player that just got his juicy RPs because they take the time to practice these maneuvers and do more than /stick and spam a reactionary with an anytime backup style. The guy that duels over and over to perfect positionals will always win against the lazy gamer who just does the above /stick and fight tactic, all things remaining equal like powerlevel, etc. The dmg bonuses and status effects guarantee this in almost every encounter mathematically.

Adapt and put better numbers on board, or go whine to the referees like you are here trying to change the way the game is played because a guy keeps outplaying you and dribbling where you can't steal the ball, I mean he did it between his legs! Totally not cool he should dribble right in front of you and not do more nuanced tactics to outplay you.