Uber high RR groups killing party rvr

So at the moment you have 2 choices:

- Solo
- Join a BG

People like myself who want the 8man fights but are maybe returning to the game or don't have RR10s have no place to go. As someone who daily tries to run PUG groups on mid we get run over by the rr10-11 guys who roam all night and only loose to eachother.

Every night this week we build a group for 30 minutes run around for 30 minutes find Kicco or Salidry group and get eventually rolled, if it's it's a good fight they have all the toys ready to use if they mess up.

This singlehandedly is forcing others to stop playing.

I'll spell it out in simple terms.

The animinal kingdom has a balance, if you are a lion you are feeding (rps) regularly everything is ok for you being 1% but the other 99% are starving with no food (rps) and begin to fall off. Thus blame yourself for actively killing the game you play 12 hours a day on, it's so sad but your need for ranks and realm points outweighs the needs of a balanced playerbase.

This is why daoc dies year on year, server on server.

By all means play together but sticking with a playerpool of 10 guys all with rr10 plus is fun for you but demoralising for others, mix it up play different characters and maybe play strong 8mans afew days a week.

Without lower re groups making rps and continuing to play the game the pop will die and you will loose the game you love (again).

The progression system is what draws the hardcore players but also kills the games balance hence why you have never seen a game like daocn again, it's sucicide to build a game model like daoc if your trying to make money.

Please comment it's an important discussion, I would like to hear what the 30 strong playerbase of rr10 8v8ers have to say.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 8:40 AM by Norad

what you say is true. it's why back in the day with dd/boyos/doki out it eventually killed all the action and 8v8 was pretty uncommon. Now many pugs can compete with every group so it creates more action(15grps on gvg list). Memes aside there is an eco system to 8v8 and having a group being too dominate/high rr kind of ruins it. To the people you listed kiico does play on mid more than hibs. imo the problem stems from nnf ras, the good grps will always have tools up for every fight, old ras with 30min timers made it so you cant use purge and other ras vs pugs/worse grps every fight where they can, making it more of an even fight.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:37 AM by JORAAL

Tbh with you we barely use anything against low RR groups since we kinda have a game plan which most pug doesn’t have. Returning to of ras would be great so pugs like you get more chance to win against any groups because Ras timers is like 30 minutes as norad said you wanna keep your stuff like purge aotg sos or whatever for stronger groups otherwise it would be harder to compete against the decent groups around.

I admit it can demoralize ppl to lose over and over to the high RR groups, that’s why reversing to old ras could be good for the gvg system so you guys can at least kill a few peoples than losing 8 ppl to 0

Jojo pug

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM by bigne88

Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:55 AM by Tlooney

JORAAL wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:37 AM
Tbh with you we barely use anything against low RR groups since we kinda have a game plan which most pug doesn’t have. Returning to of ras would be great so pugs like you get more chance to win against any groups because Ras timers is like 30 minutes as norad said you wanna keep your stuff like purge aotg sos or whatever for stronger groups otherwise it would be harder to compete against the decent groups around.

I admit it can demoralize ppl to lose over and over to the high RR groups, that’s why reversing to old ras could be good for the gvg system so you guys can at least kill a few peoples than losing 8 ppl to 0

Jojo pug

Thanks for your honesty but what you are saying is you barely have to try to beat the pug groups and admit that you are causing them to leave the game, this is damaging to this community.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:57 AM by Tlooney

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

For instance EU primetime on a Sunday on gvg list the only people you fight are efke joraal Kicco and Salidry if you dodge you don't get fights it's not abundant on that list of people to fight.

Also if you even the playing field I don't know if they are even stronger, maybe they are but you will never really know as when it gets tough they ra dump and the tanks casters have a passive 40% damage increase with RAs.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:58 AM by MrWolf

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

we're aiming to 48 men

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:13 AM by Frigzy

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 8:23 AM
Every night this week we build a group for 30 minutes

Yes, there will be groups you can't beat. And RR is part of that. However, you have to keep in mind a few things.

First, you are playing way too little to be thinking you can compete with them even regardless of RR. If you were both RR5 groups, they would still wipe the floor with you since they just have had WAY more hours of practice behind them, both mechanically and socially. 8v8 especially is very, very teamwork heavy. It's extremelly unlikely that you can compete with their level of coordination by playing just 30 minutes a day together. If you want to get good, you need to invest. It just so happens to be that by playing a lot you actually earn more RPs as well...

Second, it seems (from the above) that you want to swim with the big boys while you still use swimming aids. From what you described your group as, you're low realm rank, low coordination and low group play time. If you're at all wanting to get into the 8v8 scene (which is literally 8 people giving everything they have vs 8 others), you will need to start giving it everything you have too. This means play more, hone your skills in smallman with those who are online, try to stick to your main characters more, work on your mechanics, keybinds, panning, actives, pots, charges etc.

There's so much you can do.

I can guarantee you that any of those groups which you now think are unbeatable because of high RR would still beat you if they just rerolled to another realm simply because they are a well oiled machine by now, both personally and as a team.

It's up to you whether you want to blame just RR for the situation you are in or actually start working towards getting better. Especially on Phoenix the RRs will come over time, use that time to practice and don't focus too much on trying to compete with the best just yet. Have fun with the learning process. Join the BG but try to function as a dedicated group instead of a BG pug etc etc.

Plenty of options to work with, it's just a matter of will. Good luck!

(PS: I too would be happy with Old RAs tho ^^)

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:20 AM by Freedomcall

I believe this is typical problem of mmo and there is nothing much devs can do.
Some ppl are playing 8+ hours a day and this gap of playing hours between hardcore players and casuals is inevitable.
There could be some suggestions such as 1)creating BGs divided by RR 2)make everyone RR14 3)limit maximum playable hours a day, or even 4)add features you can earn rr fast with real cash 5)make accounts tradeable in real money, etc.
option 4 and 5 has been one of the typical ways new players/casuals could catch up hardcore players in mmo, just buying time with their more money.
I cannot come up with any more meaningful method to balance this issue.

Anyway do you really want those kind of stuffs?
I'm pretty sure all those choices won't be good for the server.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:22 AM by Tlooney

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:13 AM
Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 8:23 AM
Every night this week we build a group for 30 minutes

Yes, there will be groups you can't beat. And RR is part of that. However, you have to keep in mind a few things.

First, you are playing way too little to be thinking you can compete with them even regardless of RR. If you were both RR5 groups, they would still wipe the floor with you since they just have had WAY more hours of practice behind them, both mechanically and socially. 8v8 especially is very, very teamwork heavy. It's extremelly unlikely that you can compete with their level of coordination by playing just 30 minutes a day together. If you want to get good, you need to invest. It just so happens to be that by playing a lot you actually earn more RPs as well...

Second, it seems (from the above) that you want to swim with the big boys while you still use swimming aids. From what you described your group as, you're low realm rank, low coordination and low group play time. If you're at all wanting to get into the 8v8 scene (which is literally 8 people giving everything they have vs 8 others), you will need to start giving it everything you have too. This means play more, hone your skills in smallman with those who are online, try to stick to your main characters more, work on your mechanics, keybinds, panning, actives, pots, charges etc.

There's so much you can do.

I can guarantee you that any of those groups which you now think are unbeatable because of high RR would still beat you if they just rerolled to another realm simply because they are a well oiled machine by now, both personally and as a team.

It's up to you whether you want to blame just RR for the situation you are in or actually start working towards getting better. Especially on Phoenix the RRs will come over time, use that time to practice and don't focus too much on trying to compete with the best just yet. Have fun with the learning process. Join the BG but try to function as a dedicated group instead of a BG pug etc etc.

Plenty of options to work with, it's just a matter of will. Good luck!

(PS: I too would be happy with Old RAs tho ^^)

You have read what you wanted to read and responded accordingly.

You don't address that there is no action for the lower ranks to get experiance or get rps they have nobody to fight the high RR groups are wiping everything off the map to the point they don't bother to build or build and quit. Please address the impact of this problem than quoting I need to learn to play. Note I am not a forum troll or have an epeen I'm here to air my concern about the state of the game so slander of my character or experiance is pointless.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:27 AM by Valaraukar

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

Oh yes it's sooooo bad! Keep on whining and we'll keep on patrolling.
Anyway.... Maybe I've missed some patch notes, so my dear tell me... What those "8vs8" areas are? Where are they located? Near bled docks? Behind mid poc entrance? Let me know so we will be able to better patrol them!
See ya in the "8vs8" areas!

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:32 AM by LordK

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

uhuhuhuhuh ^___________^

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:34 AM by Norad

I find it hard to believe that the OP cant find other fights during EU PT that aren't the higher rr grps. Looking at it yesterday you can see it's actually quite diverse with different skill level of groups. Also later in the night the good grps did go to EV to fight which should be promoted up somehow more by the server.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM by bigne88

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:27 AM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

Oh yes it's sooooo bad! Keep on whining and we'll keep on patrolling.
Anyway.... Maybe I've missed some patch notes, so my dear tell me... What those "8vs8" areas are? Where are they located? Near bled docks? Behind mid poc entrance? Let me know so we will be able to better patrol them!
See ya in the "8vs8" areas!

Yea my bad pulling dark templars into a 8v8 discussion.
It is just funny how you try to be competitive not with your skills but with numbers. But if it feels right for you guys, nothing wrong with that.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:54 AM by Tlooney

Norad wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:34 AM
I find it hard to believe that the OP cant find other fights during EU PT that aren't the higher rr grps. Looking at it yesterday you can see it's actually quite diverse with different skill level of groups. Also later in the night the good grps did go to EV to fight which should be promoted up somehow more by the server.

This is fantastic but a shadow of the truth, I am in that list on mid and was on at that time. 15 minutes later from this screenshot it was 1 group alb 1 hib. Them being the R11 groups.

Your sampling the best case situation on a Sunday primetime your not representing the normal server situation . The fact you screenshotted even means it's out of the norm.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:10 AM by bigne88

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:54 AM
Norad wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:34 AM
I find it hard to believe that the OP cant find other fights during EU PT that aren't the higher rr grps. Looking at it yesterday you can see it's actually quite diverse with different skill level of groups. Also later in the night the good grps did go to EV to fight which should be promoted up somehow more by the server.

This is fantastic but a shadow of the truth, I am in that list on mid and was on at that time. 15 minutes later from this screenshot it was 1 group alb 1 hib. Them being the R11 groups.

Your sampling the best case situation on a Sunday primetime your not representing the normal server situation . The fact you screenshotted even means it's out of the norm.

For this days, actually, it is quite the norm. Plebry of party to fight against.

As an average pugger what I can suggest is: be tougher and try to improve, both against your level range party and strongher one.
Try to adapt your setup and playstyle; you cant think of competing against daoc veterans after a day, or even a month of playing.

Also, reach thous better players on discord and ask them for suggestions; most of them are always ready to help. Norad for example is a really nice guy; he even made commentaries on his twitch for sone nice 8v8 encounters (too bad his vods are expired on twitch).

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:11 AM by Norad

Most days it's quite similar, only when it gets later in the night that groups begin to drop out and quit. I'd say on average it's about 10+ groups a night.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:16 AM by Frigzy

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:22 AM
You have read what you wanted to read and responded accordingly.

You don't address that there is no action for the lower ranks to get experiance or get rps they have nobody to fight the high RR groups are wiping everything off the map to the point they don't bother to build or build and quit. Please address the impact of this problem than quoting I need to learn to play. Note I am not a forum troll or have an epeen I'm here to air my concern about the state of the game so slander of my character or experiance is pointless.

No. I think you literally need to learn to play. And the first step is your mindset.

Higher realm rank groups is an unsolvable problem unless you want to destroy the core of DAoC RvR progression (and in turn the server). Even with Old RAs u will still get rolled by them because they have had way more experience dealing with the 30min cooldown RAs you would blow to face them. And you would still complain that they beat you because of their realm rank.

Face the facts, accept your situation and do what you can with the cards you have currently been dealt with.

All you're doing is asking others to solve a problem that you can fix yourself, by getting your own RPs. By playing, by practicing, by improving your teamplay.

If you truly were as good as those guys, you wouldn't be here on the forums complaining. Look at all the groups who rerolled realms, facing the same FGs you do. Do they complain? Nope, they adapt and work their way up the ladder because they know what they can kill, how to find it and when to inc it. And they have fun doing so, getting better every fight.

Then you come and face them for the first time and complain you can't win "because of RR"? Wake up. RR is not your problem. Your mindset is.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:21 AM by bigne88

Zyfrig might sound harsh but he speaks the truth.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:48 AM by Tlooney

I'm rr7 and played daoc for 10+ years. Its a shame that my skill has been raised as the issue when it's not the core of the issue I raised.

I login hours for 2 in the evening and am unable to participate because the game as no place for my playtime; guess I should play a different game.

Please close the thread it's fallen to players who are not interested in change or balance.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:51 AM by querbeet

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM
Yea my bad pulling dark templars into a 8v8 discussion.

Why would they need to be in a 8v8 conversation? Are you suggesting someone isn't worthy to be part of an particular conversation?

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM
It is just funny how you try to be competitive not with your skills but with numbers. But if it feels right for you guys, nothing wrong with that.

Why is that funny? If this game was a catalyst for people who enjoy a competetive, skill based, environment they wouldn't be in DAoC now, would they? They would surely join a game with instanced sceanrios in which like minded people are pitched against each other in equal numbers. All of a sudden people would not only be competetive but also playing a game that tickles their fancy. I mean they are skilled in DAoC surely they are clever enough to see reason in joining a game that caters to their requirment to operate in an euqal opportunities framework. If the people who made DAoC would have wanted a 8v8 only area people would be queueing up to scenarios for the best part of the last 19 years. I guess that sets the scene nicely.

Last time I checked in DAoC the PvP mode is an open world environment in which 3 Realm are pitched against each other. Please correct me if I am wrong but I haven't seen a subtitle in DAoC saying "8v8 Skill Barometer" DLC or something. While I agree that a 8v8 scenario requires more skill from an individual to be able to successfully contribute to the victory of one's group I also think it is quite a bold thing that 8v8 enthusiasts get into an an RvR game and try to determine the conditions of PvP and try to establish as to when something can be considered the moral high ground because skill is needed. Last time I checked such behaviour is considered condescending.

Yeah my bad trying to assume the louder part of DAoC players stopped playing with one hand under the desk... apparently such folks didn't mature with the game.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 12:07 PM by Norad

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 11:48 AM
I'm rr7 and played daoc for 10+ years. Its a shame that my skill has been raised as the issue when it's not the core of the issue I raised.

I login hours for 2 in the evening and am unable to participate because the game as no place for my playtime; guess I should play a different game.

Please close the thread it's fallen to players who are not interested in change or balance.

i actually agree wit h you that it will get to be a problem if certain groups are too dominate and just kills action for people. Right now there are plenty of groups if you can play the right times, but also I think there could be other ways to promote seperate fights between higher rr/good 8mans and lower rr/newer 8mans. Have some kind of king of the hill bonus in EV/time spent in EV rp/bp bonus or something. Then other groups could fight in other realms where the better groups try to go there. Other ways is just have the higher rr/good groups try and help out, before when we played in doki we would leave a lot of pugs to fight other pugs and not be so hungry to fight everyone. You are right that with bad attitudes it leads to death of servers/action.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:05 PM by JORAAL

To answer tlooney :

Yeah I’m honest with you, do you really think you can compete against those groups when you just invite people from the lfg channel ? In the group I form I have a base of 5 peoples including me then we try to fill it with what we can.

You have to commit times, invest hardWork like I do everyday to get a pug of 8 to try to win as much as we can. You can’t win if you fill with random peoples that probably doesn’t have the same goal as you which is compete with us. You need to find good peoples or peoples who are willing to get better, practise and learn together then when you get the same 8 peoples it’s dedication open mind on what everyone can do better etc... I could speak longer about that topic but idk if you really want to try that hard to compete but Sheers !

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:12 PM by Valaraukar

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:27 AM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:51 AM
Learn to dodge man. No shame in doing it against pale and strong alb pugs with 5 pet.
As norad said, tough, there are many pugs out there now, you just have to try to be more selective.
In the end if you got beaten by stronger players it is all part of the chain food.
What I find worst is getting added by dark templars 24 men bg, who just patroll the 8v8 areas. Thous *** Edited by Uthred (pls no insults).

Oh yes it's sooooo bad! Keep on whining and we'll keep on patrolling.
Anyway.... Maybe I've missed some patch notes, so my dear tell me... What those "8vs8" areas are? Where are they located? Near bled docks? Behind mid poc entrance? Let me know so we will be able to better patrol them!
See ya in the "8vs8" areas!

Yea my bad pulling dark templars into a 8v8 discussion.
It is just funny how you try to be competitive not with your skills but with numbers. But if it feels right for you guys, nothing wrong with that.

It feels right as much as been killed by a fg when I roam solo with my BD. It feels right as much as been killed by a shadow soon after pulling a red mob in DF. It is Daoc, and I can understand that it may be sad to be killed but, as EA would say "It's in the game". There are no "8vs8" zones, deal with it, only Ellann Vaninn could be considered one of these and we NEVER roam in EV. There are no instanced zones so if we find a full group in frontier we inc. Most of combats are near keeps, drop or docks, the usual routes so you cannto say that "we patrol the 8vs8 areas" because it's a lie. A double lie, because we do not do it and there are no such zones in Phoenix

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:21 PM by Tlooney

JORAAL wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:05 PM
To answer tlooney :

Yeah I’m honest with you, do you really think you can compete against those groups when you just invite people from the lfg channel ? In the group I form I have a base of 5 peoples including me then we try to fill it with what we can.

You have to commit times, invest hardWork like I do everyday to get a pug of 8 to try to win as much as we can. You can’t win if you fill with random peoples that probably doesn’t have the same goal as you which is compete with us. You need to find good peoples or peoples who are willing to get better, practise and learn together then when you get the same 8 peoples it’s dedication open mind on what everyone can do better etc... I could speak longer about that topic but idk if you really want to try that hard to compete but Sheers !

That's what you want to do and I understand why you do it, the impact on these actions is profoundly negative towards the servers lifecycle. I speak first hand that most groups don't form as they can't be bothered to get rolled over over by people like you (sound familiar?), eventually it will be only your type of player left then QQ that the server is dead and it's other people's fault.

Imagine if the average player felt like they could make a pug group and find other pug groups, I can guarantee the action would be more fluid. If your THAT good roll lower RR characters get the rvr you love and show that you are that good, it won't happen... You might be good but with the realmranks and passive damage your essentially going into a gun range with an assault rifle whilst everyone else Is holding a pistol saying I'm allowed as I put in more work I enjoy killing noobs.

Ultimately it's the games fundamental flaw. Best server would be one where RR caps at X to allow Ra variation for builds and increases healthy rerolls of ALTs, pretty much like a battleground. People are here for the rvr action not the realm ranks. Cap realm rank even the playing field and there will be a 500% increase in smaller group action.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:23 PM by bigne88

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:12 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:27 AM
Oh yes it's sooooo bad! Keep on whining and we'll keep on patrolling.
Anyway.... Maybe I've missed some patch notes, so my dear tell me... What those "8vs8" areas are? Where are they located? Near bled docks? Behind mid poc entrance? Let me know so we will be able to better patrol them!
See ya in the "8vs8" areas!

Yea my bad pulling dark templars into a 8v8 discussion.
It is just funny how you try to be competitive not with your skills but with numbers. But if it feels right for you guys, nothing wrong with that.

It feels right as much as been killed by a fg when I roam solo with my BD. It feels right as much as been killed by a shadow soon after pulling a red mob in DF. It is Daoc, and I can understand that it may be sad to be killed but, as EA would say "It's in the game". There are no "8vs8" zones, deal with it, only Ellann Vaninn could be considered one of these and we NEVER roam in EV. There are no instanced zones so if we find a full group in frontier we inc. Most of combats are near keeps, drop or docks, the usual routes so you cannto say that "we patrol the 8vs8 areas" because it's a lie. A double lie, because we do not do it and there are no such zones in Phoenix

So you are trying to claim that you roam with your BG far away from zerg action within an area without any realm objective and where 8v8 party meets each other, just because you wanna stretch your legs? Don't offend your intelligence like this.

You just wanna play vs 8 men and zerg them down with your numbers. As I said, nothing wrong with that, just dont pretend to justify your lack of skill like this.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:24 PM by querbeet

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:21 PM
JORAAL wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:05 PM
To answer tlooney :

Yeah I’m honest with you, do you really think you can compete against those groups when you just invite people from the lfg channel ? In the group I form I have a base of 5 peoples including me then we try to fill it with what we can.

You have to commit times, invest hardWork like I do everyday to get a pug of 8 to try to win as much as we can. You can’t win if you fill with random peoples that probably doesn’t have the same goal as you which is compete with us. You need to find good peoples or peoples who are willing to get better, practise and learn together then when you get the same 8 peoples it’s dedication open mind on what everyone can do better etc... I could speak longer about that topic but idk if you really want to try that hard to compete but Sheers !

That's what you want to do and I understand why you do it, the impact on these actions is profoundly negative towards the servers lifecycle. I speak first hand that most groups don't form as they can't be bothered to get rolled over over by people like you (sound familiar?), eventually it will be only your type of player left then QQ that the server is dead and it's other people's fault.

Imagine if the average player felt like they could make a pug group and find other pug groups, I can guarantee the action would be more fluid. If your THAT good roll lower RR characters get the rvr you love and show that you are that good, it won't happen... You might be good but with the realmranks and passive damage your essentially going into a gun range with an assist rifle whilst everyone else Is holding a pistol saying I'm allowed as I put in more work I have the right to rip you apart.

well said!

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:31 PM by Forlornhope

I think the best thing, not to mention the most logical thing, would be for most of these 8mans to split up and form separate groups. Build pugs with people who are willing to learn and teach them the ropes. It will eventually create more people and more skilled groups in the future for them to fight. It would also break the "elitist" mentality other players generally hold against these 8mans. Advertising something in lfg like "lf x class good players only" or having rr requirements is only going to hurt the server in the long run.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:38 PM by MrWolf

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:23 PM
So you are trying to claim that you roam with your BG far away from zerg action within an area without any realm objective and where 8v8 party meets each other, just because you wanna stretch your legs? Don't offend your intelligence like this.

You just wanna play vs 8 men and zerg them down with your numbers. As I said, nothing wrong with that, just dont pretend to justify your lack of skill like this.

so, there are no 8v8 zones as said... You are pretending then that we know where you meet? You ever saw us on gvg list?

Or you are more cringey saying that we know where you meet maybe because having a SPY in your super elitist 8v8 crossrealm discord where you can coordinate and crossrealm when needed and purposely roam this zones?

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

then come here to cry about zergs and us with "higher number"

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:41 PM by Frigzy

What about a DAoC ELO style system?

DAoC records numerous stats about players and I can imagine it's possible to create some sort of customized 'powerscore' for 8mans (or really even any group size up to 8 for that matter). This score could take various stats into account such as Realm Rank, I Remain Standing and the Kills / Deaths ratio of their overall character.

If you take stats into account such as:

- Realm Rank
- Kill / Death ratio over the lifespan of a character
- I Remain Standing stats of the current session of the character

You could come up with a relatively accurate formula for a powerscore for individual players. A group that consists of these players could represent the combined powerscore of its players.

You could then add this score to the /gvg toggle for groups and simply to the /stats for individual players.

Perhaps it could be interesting to give groups additional rewards for defeating /gvg groups who have significantly higher power levels?

Just an idea, but I think it could be cool to see people trying to get those high scores and also trying to kill those who have em.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:45 PM by Lerox

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:21 PM
JORAAL wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:05 PM
To answer tlooney :

Yeah I’m honest with you, do you really think you can compete against those groups when you just invite people from the lfg channel ? In the group I form I have a base of 5 peoples including me then we try to fill it with what we can.

You have to commit times, invest hardWork like I do everyday to get a pug of 8 to try to win as much as we can. You can’t win if you fill with random peoples that probably doesn’t have the same goal as you which is compete with us. You need to find good peoples or peoples who are willing to get better, practise and learn together then when you get the same 8 peoples it’s dedication open mind on what everyone can do better etc... I could speak longer about that topic but idk if you really want to try that hard to compete but Sheers !

That's what you want to do and I understand why you do it, the impact on these actions is profoundly negative towards the servers lifecycle. I speak first hand that most groups don't form as they can't be bothered to get rolled over over by people like you (sound familiar?), eventually it will be only your type of player left then QQ that the server is dead and it's other people's fault.

Imagine if the average player felt like they could make a pug group and find other pug groups, I can guarantee the action would be more fluid. If your THAT good roll lower RR characters get the rvr you love and show that you are that good, it won't happen... You might be good but with the realmranks and passive damage your essentially going into a gun range with an assault rifle whilst everyone else Is holding a pistol saying I'm allowed as I put in more work I enjoy killing noobs.

Ultimately it's the games fundamental flaw. Best server would be one where RR caps at X to allow Ra variation for builds and increases healthy rerolls of ALTs, pretty much like a battleground. People are here for the rvr action not the realm ranks. Cap realm rank even the playing field and there will be a 500% increase in smaller group action.

It is something different to fight against high rr groups because there are more toys to play with which make fights longer and possibly more interesting too.
I am pretty sure most people wouldn't mind running with lower RR and still having fun but it won't change much against the average pugs because you will still dominate them just because a well attuned group will perform much better.

There are a lot of average pugs/guild groups running around and searching for fights and if you do not want to fight good groups (not speaking about rr per se) avoid them but in the end you can't learn from them. If you die twice to a good group without any chance it can be frustating for the group but just dodge them for a while so that people can think about the fight and maybe use the learned things in other fights.

I've been there myself from super bad to good and there were frustating moments of course and I fought against good groups with random people and people were even happy if they dropped 1-2 guys in a fight.

Additionally a good amount of the 8v8 community is communicating via discord and everyone is welcome to join. If people rather do the real daoc and run around as 8 and expect to don't get rolled by better groups it won't happen in my opinion.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:55 PM by JORAAL

Tlooney I’m playing all 3 realms for sure my RRon hibs are high because I played with doki but I rolled mid and alb and I’m working on hib caster and still grinding here and there when I play those realms idk what else I can do, maybe rp off so you think it’s more fair if I run forever on my RR4 savage or enchanter ?

If people don’t form it’s because they don’t wanna play I recruit people from lfg channel here and there too to fill the group and try to explain what’s the job of everyone. Also I tried to come in a lfg group and it’s not my type of group because I can’t stand that people still play that bad on a 20 yo game. I can’t even play my class how I should play it because X is too slow on action or Y doesn’t understand anything about how to play his class

Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:59 PM by bigne88

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:38 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:23 PM
So you are trying to claim that you roam with your BG far away from zerg action within an area without any realm objective and where 8v8 party meets each other, just because you wanna stretch your legs? Don't offend your intelligence like this.

You just wanna play vs 8 men and zerg them down with your numbers. As I said, nothing wrong with that, just dont pretend to justify your lack of skill like this.

so, there are no 8v8 zones as said... You are pretending then that we know where you meet? You ever saw us on gvg list?

Or you are more cringey saying that we know where you meet maybe because having a SPY in your super elitist 8v8 crossrealm discord where you can coordinate and crossrealm when needed and purposely roam this zones?

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

then come here to cry about zergs and us with "higher number"

You guys dont leave relic town unless you are at least 2 fg sticked together and you come here giving lessons on how to play daoc right?

Focus on the real thread argument instead of blabbering about nonsense.
Give us your insight about this 8v8 problem, you solved it somehow and you could try to explain to the OP to bring with him a sidecar party to help him out against strongher 8 men.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:00 PM by Tlooney

JORAAL wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:55 PM
Tlooney I’m playing all 3 realms for sure my RRon hibs are high because I played with doki but I rolled mid and alb and I’m working on hib caster and still grinding here and there when I play those realms idk what else I can do, maybe rp off so you think it’s more fair if I run forever on my RR4 savage or enchanter ?

If people don’t form it’s because they don’t wanna play I recruit people from lfg channel here and there too to fill the group and try to explain what’s the job of everyone. Also I tried to come in a lfg group and it’s not my type of group because I can’t stand that people still play that bad on a 20 yo game. I can’t even play my class how I should play it because X is too slow on action or Y doesn’t understand anything about how to play his class

Heya it wasn't supposed to be an insult I have no problems with your play style or you as a person, so sorry if it's appeared that way. I am looking for possible solutions to balance the game we all love to play.

I'm not a noob and I also had times where I played many hours a day for months but that's not where I am in my personal life at the moment, I am pointing out a flaw in the social cycle of this game and addressing to see if people are willing to first understand the problem and second take preventative action to make it better.

Again anyone saying learn to play is ignorent to the message I am attempting to lobby to this audience.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:04 PM by MrWolf

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:59 PM
MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:38 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:23 PM
So you are trying to claim that you roam with your BG far away from zerg action within an area without any realm objective and where 8v8 party meets each other, just because you wanna stretch your legs? Don't offend your intelligence like this.

You just wanna play vs 8 men and zerg them down with your numbers. As I said, nothing wrong with that, just dont pretend to justify your lack of skill like this.

so, there are no 8v8 zones as said... You are pretending then that we know where you meet? You ever saw us on gvg list?

Or you are more cringey saying that we know where you meet maybe because having a SPY in your super elitist 8v8 crossrealm discord where you can coordinate and crossrealm when needed and purposely roam this zones?

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

then come here to cry about zergs and us with "higher number"

You guys dont leave relic town unless you are at least 2 fg sticked together and you come here giving lessons on how to play daoc right?

Focus on the real thread argument instead of blabbering about nonsense.
Give us your insight about this 8v8 problem, you solved it somehow and you could try to explain to the OP to bring with him a sidecar party to help him out against strongher 8 men.

you didn't answer any of my legit questions

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM by Ashenspire

"My Washington Generals got crushed by the Harlem Globetrotters and that's not fair."

Ride the zergs until you get the realm points if you want to play in the deep end of the pool.

Expecting to be able to go out there and compete with the people that have a 6+ month head start on you in a game with a PvP climb in it is just a silly expectation.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM by Frigzy

In any case I think some type of meaningful encouragement should be considered to get low power FGs into the /gvg toggle system.

The majority of PuGs I join simply don't even bother to toggle it because being marked is more costly than beneficial to them.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:21 PM by bigne88

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:04 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:59 PM
MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:38 PM
so, there are no 8v8 zones as said... You are pretending then that we know where you meet? You ever saw us on gvg list?

Or you are more cringey saying that we know where you meet maybe because having a SPY in your super elitist 8v8 crossrealm discord where you can coordinate and crossrealm when needed and purposely roam this zones?

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

then come here to cry about zergs and us with "higher number"

You guys dont leave relic town unless you are at least 2 fg sticked together and you come here giving lessons on how to play daoc right?

Focus on the real thread argument instead of blabbering about nonsense.
Give us your insight about this 8v8 problem, you solved it somehow and you could try to explain to the OP to bring with him a sidecar party to help him out against strongher 8 men.

you didn't answer any of my legit questions

Legit what? This thread is about 8v8, nothing of your concern. But feel free to open your own thread about how fun and rightfull it is to zerg 24/7.

Otherwise write here how do you feel about this 8v8 arguments. Share with us your knowledge.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:25 PM by Tlooney

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
Ride the zergs until you get the realm points if you want to play in the deep end of the pool.

Thanks for your input @devs this the daylight of the situation.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:30 PM by Tlooney

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
"Expecting to be able to go out there and compete with the people that have a 6+ month head start on you in a game with a PvP climb in it is just a silly expectation.

The games 20 years old, it's a silly expectation to have to put months into a game to want to get a decent fight. Again you highlight it's the right for high RRs to do what they do as they have 'earned' it.

Imagine if fornite had a daoc progression system with passive increase in damage / toughness and first aid, double respawn. Would be exactly the same as this.

Not all high RR players are good some just play many many hours every day.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:30 PM by Ashenspire

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:25 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
Ride the zergs until you get the realm points if you want to play in the deep end of the pool.

Thanks for your input @devs this the daylight of the situation.

This argument can be summed up as:

"I want free stuff over the people that put the time and effort into making their characters significantly more powerful than mine. It's not fair, do something about it"

Even though the game is set up in such a way that you can literally get RPs from a different source that if you are so skilled at the game will be significantly easier.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:33 PM by bigne88

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
In any case I think some type of meaningful encouragement should be considered to get low power FGs into the /gvg toggle system.

The majority of PuGs I join simply don't even bother to toggle it because being marked is more costly than beneficial to them.

Practice make it better.
If a random puggers wants to compete, he has to do as every other 8men did: learn from mistakes and learn fron the best (watching povs and asking them).
Daoc is a really old game, there will be always more experienced people and groups that plays better. Bad players must aim to higer levels to improve, we cant ask to good players to get worst.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:36 PM by Tlooney

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:25 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
Ride the zergs until you get the realm points if you want to play in the deep end of the pool.

Thanks for your input @devs this the daylight of the situation.

This argument can be summed up as:

"I want free stuff over the people that put the time and effort into making their characters significantly more powerful than mine. It's not fair, do something about it"

Even though the game is set up in such a way that you can literally get RPs from a different source that if you are so skilled at the game will be significantly easier.

So you admit the characters are significantly more powerful and the players are significantly more skilled. So on that note it's very enjoyable to bash pug groups make them disband and give up.

Thus leading to the population and people quitting issue ultimately killing the server over a time period.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:37 PM by Sepplord

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
In any case I think some type of meaningful encouragement should be considered to get low power FGs into the /gvg toggle system.

The majority of PuGs I join simply don't even bother to toggle it because being marked is more costly than beneficial to them.

Why though? What makes it worse for them? Is their zone being broadcasted that much of a problem? Especially when there really are multiple groups out?
Worst case is they lose to a fotm-grp, but then can still collect the fairfoght RPs...

Maybe there should be more advertisement about everyone getting RPs for a 8vs8fight, even the losing group. (or do the fotm groups only confirm within their social circle?)

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:48 PM by MrWolf

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:21 PM
MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:04 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:59 PM
You guys dont leave relic town unless you are at least 2 fg sticked together and you come here giving lessons on how to play daoc right?

Focus on the real thread argument instead of blabbering about nonsense.
Give us your insight about this 8v8 problem, you solved it somehow and you could try to explain to the OP to bring with him a sidecar party to help him out against strongher 8 men.

you didn't answer any of my legit questions

Legit what? This thread is about 8v8, nothing of your concern. But feel free to open your own thread about how fun and rightfull it is to zerg 24/7.

Otherwise write here how do you feel about this 8v8 arguments. Share with us your knowledge.

u still dodging to answer my questions...

(and to be fair, it's YOU the first to call us [and also get moderated about] to this discussion)

for your convenience, i requote it down here:

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM by Salidry

While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:57 PM by Tlooney

Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM
While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

Its a good idea but naturally people's lust for ranks will resort in zerging I would imagine.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 3:29 PM by thirian24

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
The games 20 years old, it's a silly expectation to have to put months into a game to want to get a decent fight. Again you highlight it's the right for high RRs to do what they do as they have 'earned' it.

Imagine if fornite had a daoc progression system with passive increase in damage / toughness and first aid, double respawn. Would be exactly the same as this.

Not all high RR players are good some just play many many hours every day.

This is what's wrong with the mentality of most gamers these days. And also why games like fortnite are successful.

Nobody wants to earn what they receive. They don't want to put forth the effort and dedication of progression. They want it for free. Meanwhile Phoenix has already handed out free RPs basically.

Imo, progression is what makes DAoC shine. Leave it alone. The game is fine.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:01 PM by bigne88

Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM
While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

Pretty nice idea, but i already see suiciding taskers creating 8men to exploit this.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:07 PM by JORAAL

I didn’t take it as an insult I’m trying to state fact here also the server is out for quite a moment and the welfare rps you win from the task is quite good for anyone. I don’t think there is any solution to those kind of problems, people always gonna try to abuse the new system or stuff which will get added for the pug or lower RR beating high RR group.

For now I play with peoples I like to play with and I’m trying to find competitive fights for the pug I run daily. I don’t have any satisfaction winning against any1 who doesn’t give challenge but it’s not their fault, games always been like that you have the big dogs and the pleb nothing new.

Still it’s enjoyable that there are still that much people trying to run groups with whatever they have for myself I didn’t play « competitive daoc » or in good groups before uthgard or now Phoenix because I wasn’t looking for competitive stuff I was just a casual trying to enjoy the game and play it when I have fun just as I do now.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:16 PM by Salidry

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:01 PM
Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM
While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

Pretty nice idea, but i already see suiciding taskers creating 8men to exploit this.

When your lack of self esteem is worth 500 rps lol

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:22 PM by Ashenspire

Tlooney wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:18 PM
"Expecting to be able to go out there and compete with the people that have a 6+ month head start on you in a game with a PvP climb in it is just a silly expectation.

The games 20 years old, it's a silly expectation to have to put months into a game to want to get a decent fight. Again you highlight it's the right for high RRs to do what they do as they have 'earned' it.

Imagine if fornite had a daoc progression system with passive increase in damage / toughness and first aid, double respawn. Would be exactly the same as this.

Not all high RR players are good some just play many many hours every day.

They're not good but they put the time into a game that has a vertical progression system in it's PvP and apparently shit stomp you and that's not fair.

In other words...

"I got killed in an RvR zone."

Yes, this game is 20 years old. No, you can't compare it to Fortnite because it's a completely different beast altogether with a completely different system of progression.

It sounds like it's just not the game for you. Maybe go back to Fortnite if you want completely skill based gameplay? Because that is not what DAoC has ever been.

The amount of rng in game mechanics, the three team aspect, realm abilities for putting in the time all factor heavily into what you can and can't do.

Rather than try to complain about the core concept of the game play and make it into something it's not, maybe take a step back and realize that DAoC isnt a battle Royale and not all things will be equal.

If that kills the server so be it, but a complete overhaul of what made DAoC into what it is is just a silly thing to expect from a bunch of free shard devs.

You came into this with a flawed expectation, and rather than admitting "maybe this just isn't for me," you're screaming into the abyss that everyone needs to change everything to accommodate you.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:34 PM by Sepplord

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:01 PM
Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM
While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

Pretty nice idea, but i already see suiciding taskers creating 8men to exploit this.

But how would that benefit them? They arent they ones killing them at the end for the higher reward?

Yet, via the GvG command 8taskers could already suicide into another 8man and claim a small RP-amount for a sucesfull 8vs8 and that doesnt happen.

Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:37 PM by MrWolf

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 4:01 PM
Pretty nice idea, but i already see suiciding taskers creating 8men to exploit this.

MrWolf wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:48 PM
u still dodging to answer my questions... (and to be fair, it's YOU the first to call us [and also get moderated about] to this discussion)

for your convenience, i requote it down here:

More simple, as all others 8v8 elitis ubers, you roam traffic zones because you like to farm rps from small and solos as always been. and then sometimes you engage in 8v8 in these zones pretending that to be YOUR zone. Last nights midgard was all around a warfare... and think about it, lot of 8v8 going on in MIDGARD.

Why not to go to snowdonia where there was ZERO zergs (and probably also zero other players apart expers)?

Mon 24 Feb 2020 9:01 PM by keen

I suggested this when new Ra's got introduced since it has always been a problem with new Ra's that high rr grps outcompete lower ones just due to having DD up 45s instead of 15s as an example.
Cap active Ra's at level 3 so high rrs are forced more into passives that are not so fight deciding in comparison to rank5 over rank 1-3 actives.
Easy solution to minor the gap.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 2:36 AM by Killaloth

The server is good as it stands, if you look at the herald the top 250 will soon be rr10.

Here you get a lot of rps for free, this keeps the server alive, ppl can progress ranks easily.

Also, there are basically no unbeatable 8man guilds around anymore, remember that when Dark Dawn rerolled to alb they were wiping very easily the high RR grps that you call strong with rr3 chars.

You will most probably still lose against the high rr grps you mention even if u swap your rank with their rank.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 7:38 AM by Astaa

Pugs have always wiped vs organised groups, it is the way of things, a few active abilities won't change that.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 8:10 AM by Razur Ur

Salidry wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 2:49 PM
While i dont see any easy solution to make strong groups weaker nor do i see a good reason to actually do it, we can maybe improve the incentive to fight these strong groups.

We discussed this a couple days ago in the group i was in and one idea was to increase the received rps for the defeated group when the winning group is on a killing spree.

For example for each consecutive fight won by a group, the reward is increased by 500 rp for the next defeated group.

This sound like the system from LoL ;-) but i like this idea and can i do clean fight for solo vs 8er Groups :-D, i had yesterday few nice fights with my champion
vs Albgroup ^_^.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 11:18 AM by Forlornhope

The issue has a very simple solution that most of these groups, after palying with a set group or the same really good 20 people, don't seem to consider. Split up from playing with each other, grab players who are trying to learn and make separate groups and teach these people how play their roles correctly and efficiently. If you want the server to last with a new influx of 8man players this is the only solution that makes sense.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 12:47 PM by bigne88

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 11:18 AM
The issue has a very simple solution that most of these groups, after palying with a set group or the same really good 20 people, don't seem to consider. Split up from playing with each other, grab players who are trying to learn and make separate groups and teach these people how play their roles correctly and efficiently. If you want the server to last with a new influx of 8man players this is the only solution that makes sense.

True, but that would require a lot of effort from people who are playing this game from many years and logs in to play with old friends. Thous old players, on top of this, are good at that because they spent time and effort to become as such.

Also players willing to learn should be more proactive, for istance, asking for advices to better players (via discord is super ez) and watch streaming and youtube povs.

Teaching and coaching is job and we cant put this "pressure" on the shoulders of this skilled guys.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 2:07 PM by Forlornhope

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 12:47 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 11:18 AM
The issue has a very simple solution that most of these groups, after palying with a set group or the same really good 20 people, don't seem to consider. Split up from playing with each other, grab players who are trying to learn and make separate groups and teach these people how play their roles correctly and efficiently. If you want the server to last with a new influx of 8man players this is the only solution that makes sense.

True, but that would require a lot of effort from people who are playing this game from many years and logs in to play with old friends. Thous old players, on top of this, are good at that because they spent time and effort to become as such.

Also players willing to learn should be more proactive, for istance, asking for advices to better players (via discord is super ez) and watch streaming and youtube povs.

Teaching and coaching is job and we cant put this "pressure" on the shoulders of this skilled guys.

Totally agree, but there's only so much you can learn without putting it into practice. I am one of those players who is fumbling in the waters trying to learn but it is honestly really hard to learn with random puggers who constantly make the same mistakes over and over. If the higher tier players want to see a more healthy server I don't think they would look at this as a job in anyway. I speak from the NA timezone stand point, can't speak much for EU but I think it has a much healthier community, but nightly there are about three to five groups on the GvG list at the absolute peak. Other wise it's literally dead or lost to zerging or the one really set up 8man rolling tasks and killing soloers.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 3:00 PM by bigne88

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 2:07 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 12:47 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 11:18 AM
The issue has a very simple solution that most of these groups, after palying with a set group or the same really good 20 people, don't seem to consider. Split up from playing with each other, grab players who are trying to learn and make separate groups and teach these people how play their roles correctly and efficiently. If you want the server to last with a new influx of 8man players this is the only solution that makes sense.

True, but that would require a lot of effort from people who are playing this game from many years and logs in to play with old friends. Thous old players, on top of this, are good at that because they spent time and effort to become as such.

Also players willing to learn should be more proactive, for istance, asking for advices to better players (via discord is super ez) and watch streaming and youtube povs.

Teaching and coaching is job and we cant put this "pressure" on the shoulders of this skilled guys.

Totally agree, but there's only so much you can learn without putting it into practice. I am one of those players who is fumbling in the waters trying to learn but it is honestly really hard to learn with random puggers who constantly make the same mistakes over and over. If the higher tier players want to see a more healthy server I don't think they would look at this as a job in anyway. I speak from the NA timezone stand point, can't speak much for EU but I think it has a much healthier community, but nightly there are about three to five groups on the GvG list at the absolute peak. Other wise it's literally dead or lost to zerging or the one really set up 8man rolling tasks and killing soloers.

The solution to bad puggers, eh. Or you create a fixed team with like minded players, wich takes time and effort from you and 7 other peeps, or you make your own pool of reliable puggers, dodging the awfull one, to the cost of running as 6 or 7, or you do your best to explain to worst players than you, what to do or what not to do.

But again, reach good players via discord and ask for tips. Even join the 8v8 discord.

Tue 25 Feb 2020 5:50 PM by Ardri

It's a joke, but 100% relevant for this thread.

Wed 26 Feb 2020 9:30 AM by Salidry

Its complicated for many reasons to invite less experienced players if your group runs already quite good and is usually look for high end competitive fights :
- how much is the guy really willing to learn?
- how much does the guy accept criticism?
- are your usual teammates ready to help too? It requires some patience...
- is your group accepting to lose more fights because of this?
- who of your usual teammates do you replace?

A couple of nights ago i invited a total noob and we stayed in the gvg list. But the guy didnt speak on vocal and there was just not much interaction. So ok for inviting less experienced players but it needs some conditions.

Thu 27 Feb 2020 5:39 PM by joshisanonymous

This is basically what happens in any competitive online game, regardless of genre even. I used to play a lot of Quake online, but no matter how much I practiced, I got destroyed more often than not. I think DAoC is at least a lot more forgiving to those without hardcore twitch skills, but it can still be similar, especially in the 8v8 area. That's just the nature of online gaming and why I basically stick to soloing and zerging where I can perform decently without having to dump an enormous amount of energy into the game.

One nice thing that Phoenix has for this, though, is the way the tasks are setup. You basically get 1000 free RPs every 30 minutes as long as you're engaging others, even if you lose. It's not much, but at least if you're getting rolled all the time while trying to figure out how to up your game, it's not a complete loss. If anything, maybe those types of rewards can be re-evaluated? I think it would be hard to give much more than that without risking having a server where everyone reaches RR10 easily. Some people might like that idea, but personally I think it would cheapen the achievement.

Sat 29 Feb 2020 2:31 PM by Valaraukar

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:23 PM
Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 1:12 PM
bigne88 wrote: ↑
Mon 24 Feb 2020 10:49 AM
Yea my bad pulling dark templars into a 8v8 discussion.
It is just funny how you try to be competitive not with your skills but with numbers. But if it feels right for you guys, nothing wrong with that.

It feels right as much as been killed by a fg when I roam solo with my BD. It feels right as much as been killed by a shadow soon after pulling a red mob in DF. It is Daoc, and I can understand that it may be sad to be killed but, as EA would say "It's in the game". There are no "8vs8" zones, deal with it, only Ellann Vaninn could be considered one of these and we NEVER roam in EV. There are no instanced zones so if we find a full group in frontier we inc. Most of combats are near keeps, drop or docks, the usual routes so you cannto say that "we patrol the 8vs8 areas" because it's a lie. A double lie, because we do not do it and there are no such zones in Phoenix

So you are trying to claim that you roam with your BG far away from zerg action within an area without any realm objective and where 8v8 party meets each other, just because you wanna stretch your legs? Don't offend your intelligence like this.

You just wanna play vs 8 men and zerg them down with your numbers. As I said, nothing wrong with that, just dont pretend to justify your lack of skill like this.

I really have nothing to justify to you. You can believe what you want, this does not change the fact that there are no 8vs8 zones, because it is not up to you to decide what to do in what zone. You, and the others like you, are playing the wrong game, trust me. And you keep whining when you are wiped, because your RP farming is ruined. You say "no realm objectives"? Everything is a realm objective in frontier, since Daoc is a Realm VS Realm game, not a 8 vs 8 game. But it is quite clear that you don't want to understand it, and you want to play Daoc in your own way, and complains in a very childish manner when you are not allowed to. Try to appeal to devs to put instanced PvP zones and stop insulting YOUR intelligence trying to convince yourself, and everyone else, that Daoc is an 8vs8 game.

Sat 29 Feb 2020 9:05 PM by Freudinio

Back in the day, when the game was declining on live. Most set groups didn't dump on rerollers, as it would only decline the action further. I doubt this would ever happen with the "play for points" freeshard crowd.

Mon 9 Mar 2020 8:50 AM by Dahuun

Thats true. If u run as an Stealther u see 490234848181589354 solo on every Bridge.

The zergs are to big. rly? 200 hibs on saturday? for what?

Built more puggs in every realm and the Server has a Long life

. Thats more fun for everyone!

Nerf the zerg rps!!!

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:46 PM by Vendetta

I know my perspective isn't completely unique, but let me throw my observations out there.

Ive played this game for almost 20 years (I took breaks). I only did 8v8 for the vast majority of my play time (until around 2 years ago). Now I strictly solo - and on the random occasion I will join a smallman with a friend, really just to hang out with them if they need a filler class. I quit the 8man scene specifically because of how toxic the community is. It turns many people from genuinely great human beings into jerks who you really don't ever want to associate with again.

The issue in my experience is not with 8v8. The issue is with the 8v8 community, and the elitism that accompanies it. People don't want good fights anymore. You know what they want? They want to win every fight. They want to not die - ever. They want to get as many RPs as humanly possible even if the end result has nothing to do with fun. Many people scream at each other in Discord. They don't even have fun when playing together. Some are good friends, other people are tolerated because <they get them good RP>. Many are driven to cheat (radar, speedhack, etc). There were a number of people using radar and speedhack who were banned, and you know what? They will always cheat, even after they get caught. They will create another account and just do it again - because that's all they know how to do.

Currently people are forming full groups even when there is nothing to fight in the frontier other than solos and duos. You have RR8-RR10 groups camping beno/bled/crauch, and just killing solos on bridges or docks. Do you think the people in these groups are out there to have fun and good fights? of course not. There is nothing fun about killing solos as a full group, many of these full groups during 2-5am EST want to fight equal numbers, but dont seem to realize that they can't. They ruin the action entirely and cause people to log out of frustration. There are some that actually care about fun and good fights. Those are the people who you see running duo/smallman during offhours.

The worst behavior I have ever seen is the constant alb stealth zerging, and I am an alb. I saw a full stealth group at 2am EST last night right before I logged. They do this every night. Its sad - because these stealth zergs are worse than 8mans, because they do nothing but pick on solos/duos. These types of players ruin the server. They really do. It does not matter if it's a high RR 8man... it's the mentality of these players. If they lose with 8, they come back with 16. If they lose with 16, they run with 24. Heck - in the pvp event people were running more than the allotted group size. Open world pvp is meant to be fun - but at the end of the day - when people are involved they will always find ways to gain any advantage and do everything in their power to win.

If they genuinely cared about having good fights, they would end up running more smallman, or playing lower RR toons... but to many this game is an addiction. They only play to get RR, not because it's fun.

No matter who does it - it's lame. These people don't care about the server. They dont care about having fun, they just want RPs and they dont care how they get them.

There are a few ways to fix this, but honestly - they will never be implemented - solely because this is an RVR game, not an instanced pvp game, where everyone is on equal footing. The imbalance that is created by having a numbers advantage, a skill point advantage, or something similar. The server pop will bleed out slowly over time due to normal decay of players getting bored, and players frustrated by not being able to go out and have some modicum of success - and move onto something else.

Enjoy your time here, try to carve out a way to truly enjoy the game - i mean really have fun, and forget about RPs. Stop rolling solos, If you don't have any action for an 8man - go smallman ffs. if you are a 5man and there are duos out... downgrade to 3 people or 2 people.

Don't just entertain your addiction at the expense of everyone else's fun. Actually think about the server, and the people on it, and try to make the experience better for everyone else. KEEP THE COMMUNITY ALIVE, work on it. Be nice to newer players, and dont force people to log out because you want to be a giant d-bag, and steamroll them for the 47th time in the past 2 hours.

Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:53 PM by Forlornhope

Vendetta wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:46 PM
I know my perspective isn't completely unique, but let me throw my observations out there.

Ive played this game for almost 20 years (I took breaks). I only did 8v8 for the vast majority of my play time (until around 2 years ago). Now I strictly solo - and on the random occasion I will join a smallman with a friend, really just to hang out with them if they need a filler class. I quit the 8man scene specifically because of how toxic the community is. It turns many people from genuinely great human beings into jerks who you really don't ever want to associate with again.

The issue in my experience is not with 8v8. The issue is with the 8v8 community, and the elitism that accompanies it. People don't want good fights anymore. You know what they want? They want to win every fight. They want to not die - ever. They want to get as many RPs as humanly possible even if the end result has nothing to do with fun. Many people scream at each other in Discord. They don't even have fun when playing together. Some are good friends, other people are tolerated because <they get them good RP>. Many are driven to cheat (radar, speedhack, etc). There were a number of people using radar and speedhack who were banned, and you know what? They will always cheat, even after they get caught. They will create another account and just do it again - because that's all they know how to do.

Currently people are forming full groups even when there is nothing to fight in the frontier other than solos and duos. You have RR8-RR10 groups camping beno/bled/crauch, and just killing solos on bridges or docks. Do you think the people in these groups are out there to have fun and good fights? of course not. There is nothing fun about killing solos as a full group, many of these full groups during 2-5am EST want to fight equal numbers, but dont seem to realize that they can't. They ruin the action entirely and cause people to log out of frustration. There are some that actually care about fun and good fights. Those are the people who you see running duo/smallman during offhours.

The worst behavior I have ever seen is the constant alb stealth zerging, and I am an alb. I saw a full stealth group at 2am EST last night right before I logged. They do this every night. Its sad - because these stealth zergs are worse than 8mans, because they do nothing but pick on solos/duos. These types of players ruin the server. They really do. It does not matter if it's a high RR 8man... it's the mentality of these players. If they lose with 8, they come back with 16. If they lose with 16, they run with 24. Heck - in the pvp event people were running more than the allotted group size. Open world pvp is meant to be fun - but at the end of the day - when people are involved they will always find ways to gain any advantage and do everything in their power to win.

If they genuinely cared about having good fights, they would end up running more smallman, or playing lower RR toons... but to many this game is an addiction. They only play to get RR, not because it's fun.

No matter who does it - it's lame. These people don't care about the server. They dont care about having fun, they just want RPs and they dont care how they get them.

There are a few ways to fix this, but honestly - they will never be implemented - solely because this is an RVR game, not an instanced pvp game, where everyone is on equal footing. The imbalance that is created by having a numbers advantage, a skill point advantage, or something similar. The server pop will bleed out slowly over time due to normal decay of players getting bored, and players frustrated by not being able to go out and have some modicum of success - and move onto something else.

Enjoy your time here, try to carve out a way to truly enjoy the game - i mean really have fun, and forget about RPs. Stop rolling solos, If you don't have any action for an 8man - go smallman ffs. if you are a 5man and there are duos out... downgrade to 3 people or 2 people.

Don't just entertain your addiction at the expense of everyone else's fun. Actually think about the server, and the people on it, and try to make the experience better for everyone else. KEEP THE COMMUNITY ALIVE, work on it. Be nice to newer players, and dont force people to log out because you want to be a giant d-bag, and steamroll them for the 47th time in the past 2 hours.

This is why I've basically stopped playing everything else and rolled a hunter. I get rolled and added on by fgs (stealth or 8mans) all day, and will likely not be playing this much longer. The problem's the mechanic of the rvr system in this game, which is what initially draws everyone here and ironically drives many away at the same time.

Sat 28 Mar 2020 7:04 PM by Durzo

Vendetta wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:46 PM
I know my perspective isn't completely unique, but let me throw my observations out there.

Ive played this game for almost 20 years (I took breaks). I only did 8v8 for the vast majority of my play time (until around 2 years ago). Now I strictly solo - and on the random occasion I will join a smallman with a friend, really just to hang out with them if they need a filler class. I quit the 8man scene specifically because of how toxic the community is. It turns many people from genuinely great human beings into jerks who you really don't ever want to associate with again.

The issue in my experience is not with 8v8. The issue is with the 8v8 community, and the elitism that accompanies it. People don't want good fights anymore. You know what they want? They want to win every fight. They want to not die - ever. They want to get as many RPs as humanly possible even if the end result has nothing to do with fun. Many people scream at each other in Discord. They don't even have fun when playing together. Some are good friends, other people are tolerated because <they get them good RP>. Many are driven to cheat (radar, speedhack, etc). There were a number of people using radar and speedhack who were banned, and you know what? They will always cheat, even after they get caught. They will create another account and just do it again - because that's all they know how to do.

Currently people are forming full groups even when there is nothing to fight in the frontier other than solos and duos. You have RR8-RR10 groups camping beno/bled/crauch, and just killing solos on bridges or docks. Do you think the people in these groups are out there to have fun and good fights? of course not. There is nothing fun about killing solos as a full group, many of these full groups during 2-5am EST want to fight equal numbers, but dont seem to realize that they can't. They ruin the action entirely and cause people to log out of frustration. There are some that actually care about fun and good fights. Those are the people who you see running duo/smallman during offhours.

The worst behavior I have ever seen is the constant alb stealth zerging, and I am an alb. I saw a full stealth group at 2am EST last night right before I logged. They do this every night. Its sad - because these stealth zergs are worse than 8mans, because they do nothing but pick on solos/duos. These types of players ruin the server. They really do. It does not matter if it's a high RR 8man... it's the mentality of these players. If they lose with 8, they come back with 16. If they lose with 16, they run with 24. Heck - in the pvp event people were running more than the allotted group size. Open world pvp is meant to be fun - but at the end of the day - when people are involved they will always find ways to gain any advantage and do everything in their power to win.

If they genuinely cared about having good fights, they would end up running more smallman, or playing lower RR toons... but to many this game is an addiction. They only play to get RR, not because it's fun.

No matter who does it - it's lame. These people don't care about the server. They dont care about having fun, they just want RPs and they dont care how they get them.

There are a few ways to fix this, but honestly - they will never be implemented - solely because this is an RVR game, not an instanced pvp game, where everyone is on equal footing. The imbalance that is created by having a numbers advantage, a skill point advantage, or something similar. The server pop will bleed out slowly over time due to normal decay of players getting bored, and players frustrated by not being able to go out and have some modicum of success - and move onto something else.

Enjoy your time here, try to carve out a way to truly enjoy the game - i mean really have fun, and forget about RPs. Stop rolling solos, If you don't have any action for an 8man - go smallman ffs. if you are a 5man and there are duos out... downgrade to 3 people or 2 people.

Don't just entertain your addiction at the expense of everyone else's fun. Actually think about the server, and the people on it, and try to make the experience better for everyone else. KEEP THE COMMUNITY ALIVE, work on it. Be nice to newer players, and dont force people to log out because you want to be a giant d-bag, and steamroll them for the 47th time in the past 2 hours.

Just as a devils advocate, why should a group need to break up because people only want to solo? What’s preventing solo players from making a group to fight back?

Sun 29 Mar 2020 9:22 AM by Killaloth

Vendetta wrote: ↑
Thu 26 Mar 2020 5:46 PM
I know my perspective isn't completely unique, but let me throw my observations out there.

Make your name searchable on Discord, use discord.

You have the tools to set up nice fights away from zergs/adds, people just don't use them:

New experimental /fairfight command for solos and small man up to 5 players, similar to the already existing /gvg command
-/fairfight toggle - toggle being listed as looking for fair fights
- /fairfight list - shows a list of people flagged as looking for fair fights
- solos only see other solos, groups see their group size +- 1
- you cannot toggle / list and you are not shown in the list if you were in a too large group within the last 10 minutes or any group at all in case of solo

Stealthzerges make very little rps/hr and you have to understand that they are not capable to 1vs1 competitively. Mystery and co. took 1 year to ding rr11 while other ppl have done more than 2X the rps in the same time. You will never change them, just adapt.

+ We have Events and arenas coming more frequently, check the upcoming changes section.

Sun 29 Mar 2020 12:48 PM by Cadebrennus

bigne88 wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 12:47 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 25 Feb 2020 11:18 AM
The issue has a very simple solution that most of these groups, after palying with a set group or the same really good 20 people, don't seem to consider. Split up from playing with each other, grab players who are trying to learn and make separate groups and teach these people how play their roles correctly and efficiently. If you want the server to last with a new influx of 8man players this is the only solution that makes sense.

True, but that would require a lot of effort from people who are playing this game from many years and logs in to play with old friends. Thous old players, on top of this, are good at that because they spent time and effort to become as such.

Also players willing to learn should be more proactive, for istance, asking for advices to better players (via discord is super ez) and watch streaming and youtube povs.

Teaching and coaching is job and we cant put this "pressure" on the shoulders of this skilled guys.

If you want people to fight this is the only way to keep players to fight