Scouts 99 percent "Snare" - Phoenix Freeshard

Why is this in the game again?

There needs to be an immunity timer to the application of the Scout shield style "Stop"

Fight goes like this:
1.) Start fight with Scout
2.) Not rooted, but 99 percent snared, which is a root by "Stop" anytime shield style
3.) PURGE - because I'm dumb and didn't realize there is a spammable hard cc in the game that doesn't give you an immunity timer - "Won't make that mistake again"
4.) I pull bow to shoot him as he runs, but Scout goes over a lip to be out of los
5.) Scout jump shoots with terrain to get a free shot
6.) I get up to Scout - ROOTED AGAIN - sorry not rooted 99 percent snared because no immunity timer
7.) Scout runs over lip to break los so I can't shoot him
8.) Scout jump shoots me
9.) Rinse and repeat because this is an exploitable game loop and there is no immunity to interrupt it

This is a SUPER EXPLOITATIVE gameplay and can be reproduced over and over again. It is not a fluke scenario. I know the DEVS accidentally added this to the game, so should I post this in the bug forums? There is no way this is in the game on purpose. There is plenty of other ways to help the class without introducing a mechanic without counterplay because of unlimited reapplication.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 12:54 AM by jlxscholar

It's honestly no worse than being repeatedly melee snared, kited, and killed lol.

Thanes I'm looking at you.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:17 AM by Kwall0311

Ah, the weekly call for a scout nerf after dying to the perfect scenario for a scout to catch you in.

And even admitting you havent encountered this before and didnt know what to do/what it was. (its been out for 8 months now?)

The only class that warrants any gripe against it should be a berzerker maybe.

Foh

Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:28 AM by ughsmash

Kwall0311 wrote: Ah, the weekly call for a scout nerf after dying to the perfect scenario for a scout to catch you in.

And even admitting you havent encountered this before and didnt know what to do/what it was. (its been out for 8 months now?)

The only class that warrants any gripe against it should be a berzerker maybe.

Foh

Don't know where in my post I implied I have only run into this once. Also, the worst way to form a sound argument is to attack the person on the opposite side of you rather than address the point being made. Nothing in your reply is for or against Scout having a spammable root with no immunity based on merit.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:31 AM by Kwall0311

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:28 AM
Kwall0311 wrote: Ah, the weekly call for a scout nerf after dying to the perfect scenario for a scout to catch you in.

And even admitting you havent encountered this before and didnt know what to do/what it was. (its been out for 8 months now?)

The only class that warrants any gripe against it should be a berzerker maybe.

Foh

Don't know where in my post I implied I have only run into this once. Also, the worst way to form a sound argument is to attack the person on the opposite side of you than the point being made. Nothing in your reply is for or against Scout having a spammable root with no immunity based on merit, so lets crumple up your reply and throw it in the garbage.

"didnt realize there is a spammable hard cc in the game that doesn't give you an immunity timer" IE any melee snare. You just said it right there bro.

And ill give you a reason why its necessary. Ill bet 100p you take any scout vs an assasian and put them toe to toe, Scout 100% HP and assasian 30% HP. And the scout will lose. Ill even let you spec 50 shield 50 weapon MOBXXXX . Melee fight

Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:43 AM by ughsmash

Kwall0311 wrote:
ughsmash wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 1:28 AM
Kwall0311 wrote: Ah, the weekly call for a scout nerf after dying to the perfect scenario for a scout to catch you in.

And even admitting you havent encountered this before and didnt know what to do/what it was. (its been out for 8 months now?)

The only class that warrants any gripe against it should be a berzerker maybe.

Foh

Don't know where in my post I implied I have only run into this once. Also, the worst way to form a sound argument is to attack the person on the opposite side of you than the point being made. Nothing in your reply is for or against Scout having a spammable root with no immunity based on merit, so lets crumple up your reply and throw it in the garbage.

"didnt realize there is a spammable hard cc in the game that doesn't give you an immunity timer" IE any melee snare. You just said it right there bro.

You are right, I will have to partially retract what I have said. Sorry.

The timeline of my example event of how Scouts can reproduce an exploitable behavior due to a hard cc without an immunity has happened many times. So by the time I have posted this, I have had the experience a lot.

The counterplay is not there.

Yes I can win the fight if I am on flat ground with no terrain in sight and they snare and I get the chance to shoot them as they run, but if you know the option exists to root forever and post up on terrain, then that is a reproducible game loop that is exploitable and I cannot see an argument around that point.

Because of the fundamental point I am making, there needs to be a change. Either immunity timer, or a different route to help Scouts. I do not want to gut the class, but you have to look at abilities from two sides: Is it fun to use and is it fun to play against

The answer to is it fun to use is obvious because it is a hard cc without immunity which offers a huge advantage.

Is it fun to play against?: Heck no. the more time you spend being unable to use your character the less fun you have. There are features in the game to prevent that. Immunity timers and purge, but they are completely negated by the fact this is the only spammable hard cc in the game and it is gross.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 3:12 AM by Slithic

Why isn't there an immunity timer?

Tue 4 Aug 2020 3:48 AM by imweasel

Slithic wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 3:12 AM
Why isn't there an immunity timer?

Because reasons. Some of the design decisions the team has made is absolutely bonkers.

This is one of them.

They are very good at quality of life improvements for the game.

Balance not so much.

They have their own ideas on daoc and damn logic or balance if it goes against their vision.

You get what you pay for.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 11:42 AM by Noashakra

I am totally for removing this from the game, and think at another way to up the scout.
But let's be fair, when a scout break the LoS to crit shot me, I am not going there straight, I stealth before with my NS

Don't get outplayed.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 2:05 PM by ughsmash

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 11:42 AM
I am totally for removing this from the game, and think at another way to up the scout.
But let's be fair, when a scout break the LoS to crit shot me, I am not going there straight, I stealth before with my NS
Don't get outplayed.

I agree with you on this.

The Scout still gets to queue up another Crit shot even if you stealth, so your option is to run away and heal or pursue and eat another Crit shot. There should be scenarios where they can do this, but not with no immunity timer to rinse and repeat forever.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 7:35 PM by inoeth

even though this style is annoying af, i dont think its op.
any class with some ranged ability or shield can outplay this
only SBs are kind of fked with their short range thrown weapons

Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:04 PM by imweasel

I believe the duration should be cut by up to 50% and/or breakable by any damage.

I also think that scouts melee damage table needs a good bump too...

Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:30 PM by daytonchambers

imweasel wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:04 PM
I believe the duration should be cut by up to 50% and/or breakable by any damage.

I also think that scouts melee damage table needs a good bump too...

The "snare" is already broken on damage. That isn't the issue, nor is the duration. The issue is that it can be re-applied immediately. Snare, get some distance, Crit shot and a few RF hits, snare again, distance again, bow shots again, etc. If you have no range to counter you're screwed. I would even go for a cooldown added to the ability like a caster bolt instead of an immunity timer. That would make it so that the current gameplay is still doable, but would take more skill from the scout to accomplish.

Scouts melee is on the exact same damage table as the Ranger and the Hunter, and that's where it needs to stay. When a scout specced 50bow 45 shield and now can't melee very well that's on them. Nobody gets to have it all.

Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:42 PM by Lokkjim

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:30 PM
The "snare" is already broken on damage. That isn't the issue, nor is the duration. The issue is that it can be re-applied immediately. Snare, get some distance, Crit shot and a few RF hits, snare again, distance again, bow shots again, etc. If you have no range to counter you're screwed. I would even go for a cooldown added to the ability like a caster bolt instead of an immunity timer. That would make it so that the current gameplay is still doable, but would take more skill from the scout to accomplish.

Scouts melee is on the exact same damage table as the Ranger and the Hunter, and that's where it needs to stay. When a scout specced 50bow 45 shield and now can't melee very well that's on them. Nobody gets to have it all.

To be a little more fair, I think you need to add in the fact that scouts don't get a two hander or an offhand weapon (which would cut defense by 25%). As Kwall put it, an assassin still has a very good chance to beat a scout with 30% life even if they are melee spec. I don't get to fight scouts unless I duel them, so I couldn't tell you, but from experience with rangers and going through 2 lifebars as an assassin, I think it's fair to say a scout's melee damage is nowhere near hunter (with a pet) or ranger.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 3:57 AM by pollojack

A, Run away. The kiter almost always comes out on top in this game. Scouts have literally no chase. Every fight you lose to one is by choice.

B. Hold the button down on firing. Depending on spec you will hit roughly the same or for more.

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 12:46 AM
Fight goes like this:
1.) Start fight with Scout
2.) Not rooted, but 99 percent snared, which is a root by "Stop" anytime shield style
3.) PURGE - because I'm dumb and didn't realize there is a spammable hard cc in the game that doesn't give you an immunity timer - "Won't make that mistake again"
4.) I pull bow to shoot him as he runs, but Scout goes over a lip to be out of los
5.) Scout jump shoots with terrain to get a free shot
6.) I get up to Scout - ROOTED AGAIN - sorry not rooted 99 percent snared because no immunity timer
7.) Scout runs over lip to break los so I can't shoot him
8.) Scout jump shoots me
9.) Rinse and repeat because this is an exploitable game loop and there is no immunity to interrupt it

This is a SUPER EXPLOITATIVE gameplay and can be reproduced over and over again. It is not a fluke scenario. I know the DEVS accidentally added this to the game, so should I post this in the bug forums? There is no way this is in the game on purpose. There is plenty of other ways to help the class without introducing a mechanic without counterplay because of unlimited reapplication.

Sun 9 Aug 2020 10:32 PM by Tenny

It's annoying, you'll get no argument from me there. I just don't see a reason to play scout without it.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:52 AM by Helwyr

The Scout snare should have the same snare value of other melee snares (not 99%) OR it should be on a timer so it can only be used once per fight, OR once applied the target gets immunity for a while like other hard CC.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 4:30 AM by gotwqqd

Helwyr wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 12:52 AM
The Scout snare should have the same snare value of other melee snares (not 99%) OR it should be on a timer so it can only be used once per fight, OR once applied the target gets immunity for a while like other hard CC.

I’d say a good fix could be disabling bow for some period of time.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 5:09 AM by brewtus23

Give the snare a cooldown timer. Sb vanish, hunter and ranger speed burst. You claim your snare is to help the scout survive and to be able to get away then make it like the other stealthers abilities that are on a cooldown reuse timer.

Mon 10 Aug 2020 5:13 AM by gotwqqd

brewtus23 wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Aug 2020 5:09 AM
Give the snare a cooldown timer. Sb vanish, hunter and ranger speed burst. You claim your snare is to help the scout survive and to be able to get away then make it like the other stealthers abilities that are on a cooldown reuse timer.

All good

Except scouts need something for their offense
The snare was ill conceived

Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:09 AM by Tenny

A scout cant kill much with only 1 stun and 1 snare, both on timers. One will be purged so essentially youre giving them one CS. If stop gets nerfed it needs to be a normal anytime snare like garrote but without the high endo cost imo

Thu 13 Aug 2020 5:13 PM by ughsmash

From the Video section of this forum: “How to 1v1 as a scout. Mine Mine Mine”.

Perfect example of how busted the no immunity root is. The guy literally does it to the same guy over and over then jump shoots on los perfectly emphasizing my point that this is a busted mechanic. He does this every single fight in the video, so it should be evidence to change/remove the ability.

There is no counter play to spammable, anytime, no immunity root. The suggestions from people in comments to run away as a counter..... That isn’t a counter... that is running away because you can’t counter.

To all of those saying it is a snare. No. Read the ability in Charplan “99% snare, Type: Root” just like every other root in the game. For it to be a snare you would need to be able to move at a time reduced rate of speed, which you cannot do until it is wearing off.

Scouts cannot dual wield or use two hander as others have pointed out, but other classes can’t spec shield and slam, numb root. I agree something can be done to bring scouts more in line, but it has to be without this perma root abomination.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 10:16 AM by Cipon

Except maybe 3 or 4 classes everyone can rupt a scout after the root, if u decide to fight always keep an opportunity to rupt and it will be ok.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:29 PM by Tyrlaan

Shield is the only special line Scouts get and their 1h melee is abysmal. They can´t even utilize all of their shield line ´cause no Scout wants to be close to melee to block for somebody else - they´d rather spread out to shoot from range and different directions. Unless you want to introduce a new spec line (don´t know if the client can even handle that) or improve existing lines (which buff the other archers as well) their strength can only come from shields and bows, i.e. they need a way to get range (sometimes from a pet too).

All assassins can garrote + disease + snare poison. Plenty of classes can /face and engage. Plenty of classes can start nuking or CC rupting or shooting arrows (if the Scout is running away he won´t block). The number of classes who should have trouble with being rooted for 7 seconds then snared for another 7 seconds while a possibly counter-snared Scout (without any speed boost of some sort) tries to get range is low.

And the killer argument: while the number of Scouts has increased it is still lower than that of many other classes (including other archers and assassins). In other words you´re complaining because there is finally open field encounters with Scouts. While I know the root/snare style can be annoying (because you didn´t get to roflstomp the Scout), so are many other abilities. But it is hardly overpowered when people die to other abilities.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 3:17 PM by Noashakra

There are some other ways to make the scout more attractive and at the same time make the fight fun for both opponents.

At the moment, for the past two month I died twice 1vs1 vs a scout, one time it was because I didn't disengage and didn't check the timer for my instant dd to rupt, the other time the scout was waiting for me under SL pot and openend with a crit shot and I also didn't disengage from the fight.

I really want to see more scouts solos, and this root doesn't solve a thing.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 3:19 PM by gotwqqd

Cipon wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 10:16 AM
Except maybe 3 or 4 classes everyone can rupt a scout after the root, if u decide to fight always keep an opportunity to rupt and it will be ok.

And they possibly have shield spec?

Sat 15 Aug 2020 3:22 PM by gotwqqd

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:29 PM
Shield is the only special line Scouts get and their 1h melee is abysmal. They can´t even utilize all of their shield line ´cause no Scout wants to be close to melee to block for somebody else - they´d rather spread out to shoot from range and different directions. Unless you want to introduce a new spec line (don´t know if the client can even handle that) or improve existing lines (which buff the other archers as well) their strength can only come from shields and bows, i.e. they need a way to get range (sometimes from a pet too).

All assassins can garrote + disease + snare poison. Plenty of classes can /face and engage. Plenty of classes can start nuking or CC rupting or shooting arrows (if the Scout is running away he won´t block). The number of classes who should have trouble with being rooted for 7 seconds then snared for another 7 seconds while a possibly counter-snared Scout (without any speed boost of some sort) tries to get range is low.

And the killer argument: while the number of Scouts has increased it is still lower than that of many other classes (including other archers and assassins). In other words you´re complaining because there is finally open field encounters with Scouts. While I know the root/snare style can be annoying (because you didn´t get to roflstomp the Scout), so are many other abilities. But it is hardly overpowered when people die to other abilities.

And from my testing... damage wise you are better off specking higher shield and using it for damage.
Yes it’s endo hungry and no too hit but I think it makes up with increased defense.

I’d like to see scouts get an anytime shield swipe (aoe) hits target and up to two more random within a short distance in frontal arc. This would have a top hit bonus.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 8:29 PM by daytonchambers

Tyrlaan wrote: Shield is the only special line Scouts get and their 1h melee is abysmal. They can´t even utilize all of their shield line ´cause no Scout wants to be close to melee to block for somebody else - they´d rather spread out to shoot from range and different directions. Unless you want to introduce a new spec line (don´t know if the client can even handle that) or improve existing lines (which buff the other archers as well) their strength can only come from shields and bows, i.e. they need a way to get range (sometimes from a pet too).

All these complaints about Scout melee being gimpy. The scout mainhand melee, slash or thrust, is on the exact same damage table as hunters and one table higher than rangers and all three assassins. Just because you chose to spec 29slash or lower and ended up with gimpy melee does not change this fact.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_Table

Sat 15 Aug 2020 8:52 PM by imweasel

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 8:29 PM
Tyrlaan wrote: Shield is the only special line Scouts get and their 1h melee is abysmal. They can´t even utilize all of their shield line ´cause no Scout wants to be close to melee to block for somebody else - they´d rather spread out to shoot from range and different directions. Unless you want to introduce a new spec line (don´t know if the client can even handle that) or improve existing lines (which buff the other archers as well) their strength can only come from shields and bows, i.e. they need a way to get range (sometimes from a pet too).

All these complaints about Scout melee being gimpy. The scout mainhand melee, slash or thrust, is on the exact same damage table as hunters and one table higher than rangers and all three assassins. Just because you chose to spec 29slash or lower and ended up with gimpy melee does not change this fact.

https://camelotherald.fandom.com/wiki/Damage_Table

Hunters get spear and rangers get CD, greatly increasing their damage output relative to a scout.

Scouts a defensively orientated and no amount of spec in a 1h weapon line is ever going to amount to decent damage...

Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:02 PM by Forlornhope

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Aug 2020 5:13 PM
From the Video section of this forum: “How to 1v1 as a scout. Mine Mine Mine”.

Perfect example of how busted the no immunity root is. The guy literally does it to the same guy over and over then jump shoots on los perfectly emphasizing my point that this is a busted mechanic. He does this every single fight in the video, so it should be evidence to change/remove the ability.

There is no counter play to spammable, anytime, no immunity root. The suggestions from people in comments to run away as a counter..... That isn’t a counter... that is running away because you can’t counter.

To all of those saying it is a snare. No. Read the ability in Charplan “99% snare, Type: Root” just like every other root in the game. For it to be a snare you would need to be able to move at a time reduced rate of speed, which you cannot do until it is wearing off.

Scouts cannot dual wield or use two hander as others have pointed out, but other classes can’t spec shield and slam, numb root. I agree something can be done to bring scouts more in line, but it has to be without this perma root abomination.

Completely negating someone's tactic is a counter, regardless of if it allows you to kill your opponent. Yes, running the other way is definitely a counter.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:05 PM by daytonchambers

imweasel wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 8:52 PM
Hunters get spear and rangers get CD, greatly increasing their damage output relative to a scout.

Scouts a defensively orientated and no amount of spec in a 1h weapon line is ever going to amount to decent damage...

Hunters do indeed get a spear, tho most that use them run the fastest spear possible which is as low as a 3.9 weaponspeed. This is done to counter the quickness debuff weapons being used along with attack speed reducing styles which make slow weapons take forever to swing. Using a slow 2h spear usually ends up as less dps due to evades and misses, so the uber 2h dps is really only uber looking on paper.

Rangers get CD, but that's a fifth line they need to spec in for it to be of any considerable value. So either they have great melee damage and their ranged dps is weaker than a scout, or they're bow spec like a scout and their melee is just as "bad". Worse actually, since a low melee spec vs a shield spec class won't be able to land very many hits.

TL;DR no class can have it all

Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:09 PM by daytonchambers

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:02 PM
Completely negating someone's tactic is a counter, regardless of if it allows you to kill your opponent. Yes, running the other way is definitely a counter.

With that silly logic it means that dodging RvR altogether and sticking to pve is also a counter.

An escape or escape mechanism is not a counter. A counter is an ability which allows the player a chance to regain initiative in a fight for a potential win.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:25 PM by Noashakra

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:02 PM
Completely negating someone's tactic is a counter, regardless of if it allows you to kill your opponent. Yes, running the other way is definitely a counter.

With that silly logic it means that dodging RvR altogether and sticking to pve is also a counter.

An escape or escape mechanism is not a counter. A counter is an ability which allows the player a chance to regain initiative in a fight for a potential win.

I can't even...
Running away is a counter. omg.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 11:49 PM by daytonchambers

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:25 PM
daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:09 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 9:02 PM
Completely negating someone's tactic is a counter, regardless of if it allows you to kill your opponent. Yes, running the other way is definitely a counter.

With that silly logic it means that dodging RvR altogether and sticking to pve is also a counter.

An escape or escape mechanism is not a counter. A counter is an ability which allows the player a chance to regain initiative in a fight for a potential win.

I can't even...
Running away is a counter. omg.

You literally, like totally can't even?

You say it's a counter, I say it isn't. I explained why I thought it wasn't a counter and you give me.... passive aggressive 14yo speak. Good to see you're consistent in your contributions to a discussion.

Tell me why a broken, spammable CC with no cooldown nor immunity should be left as is and those affected by it need to just suck it up and either die or run away if they can't effectively range interrupt the scout. Not everyone plays a Nightshade like you, where you have spells to counter and vanish to run away if you don't like your progress in the fight.

Engage? sure, until you're OOE and start taking hits, backpedal to distance and the scout simply does a short sprint and then continues to shoot at you. Turn to run and then take more hits which will eventually lead to you being snared from low health. Or more likely your fight gets added because it took too long and either one or both of you get rolled by a small/8man.

Charge interrupt? Sure that works. Once. You're still rooted. And if you wait till they distance and fire a shot you are either A) still rooted, or B) eating a crit shot in damage before you rupt them, and they can simply re-root you and do it again. The posted vid clearly shows this.

I like totally can't even...

Sun 16 Aug 2020 7:06 AM by Noashakra

Man I am not against you on this, I said it many times, I am all for removing the root from the scout and find other ways to buff the class.
It's just that calling running away a counter is asinine.
I quoted you because I agree with you... Maybe read my other posts on this topic?

I don't know why you get on your high horse.

Mon 17 Aug 2020 4:11 PM by dogghaus72

I'm all about scouts getting this nice snare off shield style. It makes them much more viable. HOWEVER, there should NEVER be a CC in the game that has no immunity timer. NONE!! If other classes have a snare with no immunity timer on it than those should also be changed. PERIOD! Scouts get shield slam AND a very long 99% snare. There is no reason for the snare not to have an immunity timer on it. Well played scouts should have no issue with having success with those tools. As it stands now, they slam you, you purge, then they snare and either run away or just keep kiting. There is nothing you can do about it. Than you compound that with multiple scouts and it gets even worse.

Again, I'm all about them having that extra skill so people have to either purge the slam OR the snare, but can't purge both and will get hit with one, but there is no reason for no immunity timer.

Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:01 AM by Jakersan

There have been a few times I have played in a 8v8 setting against groups that run a scout for peels and let me tell you it is the most frustrating thing you will play against. Scout "snares" you and you never get to move again. Playing any kind of melee against it is pointless as you will not move the entire fight. An anytime 99% snare with no immunity. There is no counterplay available, unless you count standing there with your shortbow out hoping you can interrupt but as I'm sure you know that's not going to cut it. I am not sure they considered this when adding this to the game and the devs should play against it even a single time to understand how bad of a decision this is. At the very least make it a positional or a reactionary so you can play around it and have it require skill to use. =/

Tue 1 Sep 2020 6:02 PM by Roto23

Honestly, the answer to "is this op or not" is simple....
Would the devs give this 45 shield style to all shield classes?
No, they would not because it is too OP

Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:42 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

Jakersan wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:01 AM
Playing any kind of melee............. is pointless....

FTFY

Just kidding. Melee isn't completely pointless, but they sure do serve as little more than fodder for ranged classes in this game, and always have.

The lack of an immunity timer on the scout snare is one of THE most pants-on-head retarded mental development decisions made on a server that has some surprisingly good features.

The individual that approved the implementation of this decision should be embarassed, ashamed, and barred from making future decisions that impact this server.

Wed 2 Sep 2020 7:01 PM by tommccartney

IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Wed 2 Sep 2020 6:42 PM
Jakersan wrote: ↑
Sat 22 Aug 2020 12:01 AM
Playing any kind of melee............. is pointless....

FTFY

Just kidding. Melee isn't completely pointless, but they sure do serve as little more than fodder for ranged classes in this game, and always have.

The lack of an immunity timer on the scout snare is one of THE most pants-on-head retarded mental development decisions made on a server that has some surprisingly good features.

The individual that approved the implementation of this decision should be embarassed, ashamed, and barred from making future decisions that impact this server.

Heavy

Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:17 PM by inoeth

make it "after block" problem solved

Thu 3 Sep 2020 6:00 PM by Roto23

inoeth wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 1:17 PM
make it "after block" problem solved

^This guy frequently comes up with some good suggestions. This is another one

Thu 3 Sep 2020 8:57 PM by Phurie

I posted some suggestions with reasoning here: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/ask-the-team/25525-scouts-lvl-45-shield-snare?page=7#140668

Here's the suggestion part -
Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

Some combination of the above changes would let scouts keep a disengage tool without them having the best CC/peel style in the game.

Thu 3 Sep 2020 9:07 PM by DinoTriz

Phurie wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 8:57 PM
I posted some suggestions with reasoning here: https://forum.playphoenix.online/get-involved/ask-the-team/25525-scouts-lvl-45-shield-snare?page=7#140668

Here's the suggestion part -
Any way this gets tweaked in any or all of the following ways?

1. Reduce the duration to just long enough to get out of melee range, say around 5 seconds. 14 seconds feels excessive, especially when there is no immunity after.

2. Change it to a melee snare instead of a root. The current style gets the benefits that other melee snare styles get (not affected by DET, no immunity given), but roots in place instead of just slows movement speed like all other snare styles. What is the precedence for this type of style? It feels outside the bounds of DAOC mechanics

3. Make it a Frontal positional style. If this style was added because Scouts needed a disengage tool, making it Frontal instead of anytime reduces the chance it's used as a peel or CC tool, but would keep the original intent of being used against an enemy hitting you in melee.

4. Add a timer to it's use (I'd recommend 15 minutes to match Purge2 timer). This would make it a limited counter to slam getting purged, but limit it's use as a continuous CC/escape tool. You could make the timer shorter, but I think a counter to a level 2 RA being part of the class kit makes sense vs a 5 minute timer which is 30 RA pts invested.

Some combination of the above changes would let scouts keep a disengage tool without them having the best CC/peel style in the game.

A 5 second duration would be useless. You wouldn't be able to get out of melee range with that, or you would for maybe 1 or 2 seconds because you'd be right back into melee range after that.

It is a snare. 99% Slow/Snare.

A 15 minute timer is WAY too long. If you're trying to get Scouts not to spam it, you can achieve it with like a 2 minute RUT.

Scouts literally still suck with this ability and people still want to remove it lol

It's really only effective vs Savages and Berserkers.

Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:57 AM by Phurie

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 9:07 PM
A 5 second duration would be useless. You wouldn't be able to get out of melee range with that, or you would for maybe 1 or 2 seconds because you'd be right back into melee range after that.

It is a snare. 99% Slow/Snare.

A 15 minute timer is WAY too long. If you're trying to get Scouts not to spam it, you can achieve it with like a 2 minute RUT.

Scouts literally still suck with this ability and people still want to remove it lol

It's really only effective vs Savages and Berserkers.

5 seconds lets you get out of melee range without letting you get to clip range. It's longer than you think unless you are already snared, in which you shouldn't be able to get away anyway imo. If it stops someone 99%, 5 seconds of sprinting away is pretty far. Other melee snares in the game are 60% and last about the same amount of time and are positional styles, not anytime.

A 99% Slow/Snare is effectively a root with all the benefits of a snare. It would be more balanced if it was a root that gave immunity to root/snare.

If scouts still suck with this style (or so you say?), then maybe remove it and tweak another way? This style is the number one thing people complain about when I talk to people in game in hib/mid and people laughed about how broken it was when I was playing on alb. A 2 minute timer would be better than being able to spam it on multiple targets or the same target over and over, but what was the intent of this style? I've heard it was because everyone has purge and slam gets purged. If that's the case, it should have a comparable timer to Purge and the fastest purge is 5 minutes.

Fri 4 Sep 2020 4:15 AM by Tyrlaan

Phurie wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:57 AM
5 seconds lets you get out of melee range without letting you get to clip range. It's longer than you think unless you are already snared, in which you shouldn't be able to get away anyway imo. If it stops someone 99%, 5 seconds of sprinting away is pretty far. Other melee snares in the game are 60% and last about the same amount of time and are positional styles, not anytime.

Uhh melee snares start at 12 seconds duration which is short already. There are quite a few snares which are not positional (like Crippling Blow but most notably Garrote) and classes which get side and back snares, i.e. spammable on somebody trying to get away. Stop is a snare for trying to get away oneself. And "in which you shouldn't be able to get away anyway imo" is just IYO, IMO it´s exactly to get away in those situations (because these situations are very common with snare styles on basically every melee class, before disease, prevent flight or instant snare spells).

Fri 4 Sep 2020 5:42 AM by Phurie

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 4:15 AM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Sep 2020 2:57 AM
5 seconds lets you get out of melee range without letting you get to clip range. It's longer than you think unless you are already snared, in which you shouldn't be able to get away anyway imo. If it stops someone 99%, 5 seconds of sprinting away is pretty far. Other melee snares in the game are 60% and last about the same amount of time and are positional styles, not anytime.

Uhh melee snares start at 12 seconds duration which is short already. There are quite a few snares which are not positional (like Crippling Blow but most notably Garrote) and classes which get side and back snares, i.e. spammable on somebody trying to get away. Stop is a snare for trying to get away oneself. And "in which you shouldn't be able to get away anyway imo" is just IYO, IMO it´s exactly to get away in those situations (because these situations are very common with snare styles on basically every melee class, before disease, prevent flight or instant snare spells).

Good points. 5 seconds is probably too short and I just pulled it out of my arse tbh. If I really had my way, I'd make it an instant cast 300 range 15s spell root with a timer and just give it to scouts at lvl40ish instead of having to spec shield. The thing that really bothers me is that there is no immunity and it's spammable on multiple targets and the same target over and over.

Mon 7 Sep 2020 2:33 PM by stewbeedoo

I have never had a Scout kill me using the 45 shield snare, but I have had a lot of them wilson with it.

The original intent of the snare was to make the Scout more viable. IMHO it has failed since it just allows them to escape when they are losing the fight (which they typically are). Except in a few specific situations, the snare doesn't help them win fights.

Scouts need something else to make them more viable.

Mon 7 Sep 2020 4:04 PM by Noashakra

Yesterday I fought a scout near crau. First fight he crit shot me under SL pot while at the top of the bridge. I flee, I jump and he follows, I have vanish up, So I try to fight, I could have just run away. I vanish at 25% life. I chose to fight knowing I could flee, otherwise I would have just left.

Second fight, I see him climbing the stairs of the bridge, I come back and eat a crit shot. He tries to slam and I avoid a few hit. He slams I purge, he tries to snare but miss a few times while I maul him to death. When he success he is at 50% life but I garrot, and try to take some distance, but I start to use my DD and with the dot he is at 30% life. I DD the scout to death and finish with 60% life.

Great tool...
To be clear, the scout was playing quite well. It's not his skills that mad him lose the fight.

Tue 8 Sep 2020 1:56 AM by Parole

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Mon 7 Sep 2020 4:04 PM
Yesterday I fought a scout near crau. First fight he crit shot me under SL pot while at the top of the bridge. I flee, I jump and he follows, I have vanish up, So I try to fight, I could have just run away. I vanish at 25% life. I chose to fight knowing I could flee, otherwise I would have just left.

Second fight, I see him climbing the stairs of the bridge, I come back and eat a crit shot. He tries to slam and I avoid a few hit. He slams I purge, he tries to snare but miss a few times while I maul him to death. When he success he is at 50% life but I garrot, and try to take some distance, but I start to use my DD and with the dot he is at 30% life. I DD the scout to death and finish with 60% life.

Great tool...
To be clear, the scout was playing quite well. It's not his skills that mad him lose the fight.

Good depiction of what actually happens to most scouts who try to "snare and win", and an opponent who has put some thought into a counter. I think this whole thread is just a distraction from fixes the server ACTUALLY needs. Champs are way OP for a hybrid tank, rangers shoot too hard and get 5.5 bows... Anyone who thinks scouts are somehow secretly ruling the world of DAOC solo fights (rofl > insert rude Parole comment here) and stealth game is delusional.

No fix necessary because there IS no problem.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 5:35 AM by IdiamVonGawaine

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Thu 3 Sep 2020 9:07 PM
A 5 second duration would be useless. You wouldn't be able to get out of melee range with that.....

Wait...what?

Fri 18 Sep 2020 11:25 AM by Fk_

imweasel wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Aug 2020 8:04 PM
I believe the duration should be cut by up to 50% and/or breakable by any damage.

I also think that scouts melee damage table needs a good bump too...

Playing Scout myself, and yeah, that "snare" should be 7s maximum, in current state, it is very broken with no counterplay possible for some classes.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 11:43 AM by Cipon

Fk_ wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 11:25 AM
Playing Scout myself, and yeah, that "snare" should be 7s maximum, in current state, it is very broken with no counterplay possible for some classes.

Can you name this classes, i'm curious ?

Fri 18 Sep 2020 12:23 PM by Lilou07

I think we all agree to say that style is something that sould not exist.
How a melee can kill a class that you can't hit more than once at the time lol.
Give scout something else cause this is definitely broken.
If you're not convinced try to fight a scout see how ridiculous it' is when played "well"

Fri 18 Sep 2020 12:46 PM by necrolove1

I cannot defeat this "insert class" 1v1, my realm's "insert class type" doesn't have that realm's "insert class type" abilities. Nerf them so I can defeat "insert class". I should be able to solo any class.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 1:14 PM by Lilou07

necrolove1 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 12:46 PM
I cannot defeat this "insert class" 1v1, my realm's "insert class type" doesn't have that realm's "insert class type" abilities. Nerf them so I can defeat "insert class". I should be able to solo any class.

It's not about win or lose a fight , it's about being able to fight.
For example, champ are kind of op here, still you have a chance to fight them.
How do you fight a class that can chain root you every time you arrive in melee.

I have been dueling quit some scout those time because I link finding a way around those kind of situation.
Well I can tell you nothing come close to the ridiculousness of those fight not even fight the bard of azteq

Fri 18 Sep 2020 1:26 PM by Cipon

Lilou07 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 1:14 PM
It's not about win or lose a fight , it's about being able to fight.
For example, champ are kind of op here, still you have a chance to fight them.
How do you fight a class that can chain root you every time you arrive in melee.

I have been dueling quit some scout those time because I link finding a way around those kind of situation.
Well I can tell you nothing come close to the ridiculousness of those fight not even fight the bard of azteq

Again, what class do u play?

Fri 18 Sep 2020 6:37 PM by protege

Cipon wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 1:26 PM
Lilou07 wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 1:14 PM
It's not about win or lose a fight , it's about being able to fight.
For example, champ are kind of op here, still you have a chance to fight them.
How do you fight a class that can chain root you every time you arrive in melee.

I have been dueling quit some scout those time because I link finding a way around those kind of situation.
Well I can tell you nothing come close to the ridiculousness of those fight not even fight the bard of azteq

Again, what class do u play?

Scouts root + LoS break and preloading shots should be looked at, period. There is absolutely no counter to it. You cannot interrupt someone that runs out of LoS and has crit shot waiting for you. You can’t run even if you are below 80% because they can kill you before you run out of distance.

Scout is level 46. Looking forward to demolishing people and claiming it doesn’t need a nerf !

Fri 18 Sep 2020 7:05 PM by Cipon

protege wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 6:37 PM
Scouts root + LoS break and preloading shots should be looked at, period. There is absolutely no counter to it. You cannot interrupt someone that runs out of LoS and has crit shot waiting for you. You can’t run even if you are below 80% because they can kill you before you run out of distance.

Scout is level 46. Looking forward to demolishing people and claiming it doesn’t need a nerf !

I really hope u'll do it and have fun playing scout in solo. Maybe u'll change ur mind.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 10:26 PM by Dariussdars

Yeah, because spamming your root with no immunity to it is hard mode.

Fri 18 Sep 2020 10:34 PM by Symptomettes

There is so much counter to scout... People are just to dumb to learn how to deal with the class. Purging numb doesn't help !

Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 AM by Dariussdars

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 10:34 PM
There is so much counter to scout... People are just to dumb to learn how to deal with the class. Purging numb doesn't help !

Yep, so much counter to scout on a berserker, or savage.

Why do you think anyone purges numb?

Your snare has no IMMUNITY genius. What is the counter to something with zero immunity?

Love how you all come running to defend such a ridiculous ability though.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:30 AM by Symptomettes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 10:34 PM
There is so much counter to scout... People are just to dumb to learn how to deal with the class. Purging numb doesn't help !

Yep, so much counter to scout on a berserker, or savage.

Why do you think anyone purges numb?

Your snare has no IMMUNITY genius. What is the counter to something with zero immunity?

Love how you all come running to defend such a ridiculous ability though.

High avoidance make really hard to use stop cause of the endu cost. USe melee / magic snare + disease if you can. Straff to counter the blockrate.

Even a small shield without spec point in it give you 10% block if you try to fight a scout.

Charge DD to rupt. Use everything than can break los... Just run away. Don't solo with class that sucks alone.

Love how everyone is QQing about a single ability without any arguments or idea to change the viability of scout : pls nerf scout cause it's not supposed to kill me in 1v1.

What class are you playing sheep ?

Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:39 AM by Dariussdars

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:30 AM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Fri 18 Sep 2020 10:34 PM
There is so much counter to scout... People are just to dumb to learn how to deal with the class. Purging numb doesn't help !

Yep, so much counter to scout on a berserker, or savage.

Why do you think anyone purges numb?

Your snare has no IMMUNITY genius. What is the counter to something with zero immunity?

Love how you all come running to defend such a ridiculous ability though.

High avoidance make really hard to use stop cause of the endu cost. USe melee / magic snare + disease if you can. Straff to counter the blockrate.

Even a small shield without spec point in it give you 10% block if you try to fight a scout.

Charge DD to rupt. Use everything than can break los... Just run away. Don't solo with class that sucks alone.

Love how everyone is QQing about a single ability without any arguments or idea to change the viability of scout : pls nerf scout cause it's not supposed to kill me in 1v1.

What class are you playing sheep ?

Yeah, everyone else should have to change their playstyle instead of something being done about one ridiculous ability on one class.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:59 AM by Symptomettes

Changing their playstyle ? You mean use the brain they have to handle a range damage dealer ?

Oh no i have to think of something... Nah, will be easier to call a nerf on forum and make no sense.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 10:21 AM by Dariussdars

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:59 AM
Changing their playstyle ? You mean use the brain they have to handle a range damage dealer ?

Oh no i have to think of something... Nah, will be easier to call a nerf on forum and make no sense.

How many charges do you expect a melee character with zero range to use against your no immunity snare?

You are the only ranged damage dealer with a snare with zero immunity to it.

Keep on defending it though, makes for great entertainment.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 PM by Messerjockel

Ok, enough was said.

The complaints started already 3-4 month ago but it is my opinion the critical mass of players is not reached yet.

Let’s wait a little longer for the critical mass and the style will be adjusted.

Flup, hib

Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:18 PM by Tyrlaan

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 10:21 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:59 AM
Changing their playstyle ? You mean use the brain they have to handle a range damage dealer ?

Oh no i have to think of something... Nah, will be easier to call a nerf on forum and make no sense.

How many charges do you expect a melee character with zero range to use against your no immunity snare?

You are the only ranged damage dealer with a snare with zero immunity to it.

Keep on defending it though, makes for great entertainment.

He answered already.

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:30 AM
Don't solo with class that sucks alone.

Hate to break it to you but maybe Zerks and Savages are just a bad choice to solo with? Visible, without a shield to handle archers, without range, speed or some form of CC (instant snare or the like) to close distance. You gonna have trouble with so many classes (which can handle Scouts just fine because they are just as much trying to stay out of melee as Scouts will do).

Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:48 PM by Symptomettes

And we are the only damage dealer that can't kill anyone in melee spec for a stealther. So yeah we need something to kite since 95% of our damage are based on Bow... Oh and bow damage interupt is working like a nuker.

What do you want more from scout ? Being the underdog between all archery class as we already are ? Make us free rps from anyone we attack in 1v1 and feed the stealth zerg ? We are not in 8v8 meta or zerg keep mandatory. We are super strong in small man (And gm should nerf archery damage from dex and allow self buff for scout to counter the cleric buff in small man that make us insane) that i can't deny it, and we are decent in 1v1. It's not like there is 40 scout "on" in prime time... So stop your bullshit. Let scout as it is, if you can't win vs a specific class then you don't fight it and run away that's all.

It's like running away from a small man when you are solo or a small man running away from a full grp. You don't fight vs something you know you will die or if you try don't complain on forum with pathetic arguments like yours. Whao two classes are supposed to be killed easily with scout : Zerker and Savage. They have the hp pool to run away without being killed by our damage : Whao... Sure in that case stop need a nerf !!! Oh and they are in 8v8 meta class and small man. So what's the point in soloing ? My god those dumb complains. I really hope i'm the one that make you that mad Darius.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:56 PM by Cadebrennus

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 10:21 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:59 AM
Changing their playstyle ? You mean use the brain they have to handle a range damage dealer ?

Oh no i have to think of something... Nah, will be easier to call a nerf on forum and make no sense.

How many charges do you expect a melee character with zero range to use against your no immunity snare?

You are the only ranged damage dealer with a snare with zero immunity to it.

Keep on defending it though, makes for great entertainment.

Last I checked the tank classes had some sort of ranged weapon they can use while.an Archer is running from them.

There is a difference of 700 units between a Scout's bow range and a Shortbow. That's it. When they're 1500 units apart the Tank can either reset by finding cover

Sat 19 Sep 2020 5:58 PM by Phurie

The comments about people complaining too much and need to just play better, but are in support of keeping this 45 shield style, just kill me. How do you think scouts got this ability to begin with? They complained about not being able to compete and were gifted this style which is not on any other server.

The comments about scouts being the only archer who can't kill things in melee so they needed something, also kill me. Should the HIB speed class (BARD) be able to solo well like Mins/Skald? Should we give HIB/MID another stealth class with CC to group with like Minstrel? The game was designed for realms to have some differences. I'd argue by far the best stealth groups can be made on ALB for the sole reason that you can have a MINs with speed/mez/insta stun/etc. I don't think the GMs balance on solo/1v1 play, nor should they in my opinion. So I'm really confused why scouts needed this new style to begin with.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:03 PM by Phurie

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 PM
Ok, enough was said.

The complaints started already 3-4 month ago but it is my opinion the critical mass of players is not reached yet.

Let’s wait a little longer for the critical mass and the style will be adjusted.

Flup, hib

How would you know? Maybe there should be a server wide vote on whether this style should stay or go.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:10 PM by Symptomettes

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 5:58 PM
The comments about people complaining too much and need to just play better, but are in support of keeping this 45 shield style, just kill me. How do you think scouts got this ability to begin with? They complained about not being able to compete and were gifted this style which is not on any other server.

The comments about scouts being the only archer who can't kill things in melee so they needed something, also kill me. Should the HIB speed class (BARD) be able to solo well like Mins/Skald? Should we give HIB/MID another stealth class with CC to group with like Minstrel? The game was designed for realms to have some differences. I'd argue by far the best stealth groups can be made on ALB for the sole reason that you can have a MINs with speed/mez/insta stun/etc. I don't think the GMs balance on solo/1v1 play, nor should they in my opinion. So I'm really confused why scouts needed this new style to begin with.

Dude it's not Daoc Classic. When the game was design with the current abilities about scout having one cc, purge was on a 30 min timer. Tell me how this decision about incorporate a tool for scout is not relative to the new NF ra system and the new cooldown of purge ?

And don't bring speed class meta into that. Bard is insanely strong in his own way. We are talking about archery. Naming every abilities of each toon and proving that all classes are differents doesn't mean it needs to stay on the old model...

You know shit about the game. You just throw every little crap you have because you just mad. Most hybrid get damage table up / more HP / twink Dual / buffbot pots / qol / Ra improve by NF for most classes. CALL FOR A FUCKING NERF NO ? Archery class doesn't get any of that except dual for ranger and pots (selfpot reduce the effectivness of spending points into selfbuff tbh). And still you get the only thing scout did get from all of that and just spit on it like it deserve to die and watch it burn !!! This style provide to the class the possibility to solo (yes we are not much to do it but still more people are trying) and it helps to reduce the stealth zerg : Yes it does... Look the big picture and live with it.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:32 PM by Messerjockel

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:03 PM
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:09 PM
Ok, enough was said.

The complaints started already 3-4 month ago but it is my opinion the critical mass of players is not reached yet.

Let’s wait a little longer for the critical mass and the style will be adjusted.

Flup, hib

How would you know? Maybe there should be a server wide vote on whether this style should stay or go.

I like that idea and Devs should ask the following questions.

Leave as is.
Remove it
Add 42 seconds immunity on it.

Flup, hib

Sat 19 Sep 2020 7:39 PM by Tyrlaan

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:32 PM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:03 PM
How would you know? Maybe there should be a server wide vote on whether this style should stay or go.

I like that idea and Devs should ask the following questions.

Leave as is.
Remove it
Add 42 seconds immunity on it.

Flup, hib

Now if we were putting up votes about class abilities, some of them whiners gonna have a rude awakening (as long as their classes are not played by 50%+ already, that is).
We would have to start closer to the top of /serverinfo, like with Rangers. Perhaps then they´d play the overpowered Scout (sarcasm intended) instead of whining about Scouts whilst playing their Ranger.

Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:31 PM by Messerjockel

Please Tyrlaan, stay on track of this thread about the scout snare.
There are several other threads about ranger and you can bring in your opinion in those threads.

This is about 99% anytime snare for 14 seconds without immunity.

Can I put you down for the „leave as is“ option?

You might consider that we are not all wrong way drivers but you are.

Flup, hib

Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:54 PM by Tyrlaan

Uhh I´m perfectly on topic. Putting class abilities to vote like you suggested is just stupid. And you will have to read why.

Completely removing Ranger DA and D/Q from Pathfinding would actually normalize their archery and melee into the whereabouts of Scout archery and melee. If we put it up to vote and people just consider their own benefit when facing Rangers instead of overall balance in allowing every class (that would include Scouts) their niche and way to shine, you will see lots of abilities removed. Can you imagine the result of putting stealth, baseline stun, instant amnesia, bolt range mezz, celerity, shrooms and many more to a vote? I can.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 2:37 AM by Dariussdars

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 12:56 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 10:21 AM
Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:59 AM
Changing their playstyle ? You mean use the brain they have to handle a range damage dealer ?

Oh no i have to think of something... Nah, will be easier to call a nerf on forum and make no sense.

How many charges do you expect a melee character with zero range to use against your no immunity snare?

You are the only ranged damage dealer with a snare with zero immunity to it.

Keep on defending it though, makes for great entertainment.

Last I checked the tank classes had some sort of ranged weapon they can use while.an Archer is running from them.

There is a difference of 700 units between a Scout's bow range and a Shortbow. That's it. When they're 1500 units apart the Tank can either reset by finding cover

The tank can reset while snared?

Sun 20 Sep 2020 3:14 AM by Tyrlaan

A tank can always reset vs. a Scout. They get the hps to just run the other way once the snare is broken from damage. No melee to use Stop, no ranged snares, no speed burst. Tank can charge rupt or heal and eventually gets out of range, Scout restealths when he notices he can´t keep up and shoot. All back to status quo ante. That´s the very definition of a reset. And that´s how you would have to play your Zerk or Savage vs. ANY class that is trying to damage kite you.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 3:54 AM by Phurie

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 6:10 PM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 5:58 PM
The comments about people complaining too much and need to just play better, but are in support of keeping this 45 shield style, just kill me. How do you think scouts got this ability to begin with? They complained about not being able to compete and were gifted this style which is not on any other server.

The comments about scouts being the only archer who can't kill things in melee so they needed something, also kill me. Should the HIB speed class (BARD) be able to solo well like Mins/Skald? Should we give HIB/MID another stealth class with CC to group with like Minstrel? The game was designed for realms to have some differences. I'd argue by far the best stealth groups can be made on ALB for the sole reason that you can have a MINs with speed/mez/insta stun/etc. I don't think the GMs balance on solo/1v1 play, nor should they in my opinion. So I'm really confused why scouts needed this new style to begin with.

Dude it's not Daoc Classic. When the game was design with the current abilities about scout having one cc, purge was on a 30 min timer. Tell me how this decision about incorporate a tool for scout is not relative to the new NF ra system and the new cooldown of purge ?

And don't bring speed class meta into that. Bard is insanely strong in his own way. We are talking about archery. Naming every abilities of each toon and proving that all classes are differents doesn't mean it needs to stay on the old model...

You know shit about the game. You just throw every little crap you have because you just mad. Most hybrid get damage table up / more HP / twink Dual / buffbot pots / qol / Ra improve by NF for most classes. CALL FOR A FUCKING NERF NO ? Archery class doesn't get any of that except dual for ranger and pots (selfpot reduce the effectivness of spending points into selfbuff tbh). And still you get the only thing scout did get from all of that and just spit on it like it deserve to die and watch it burn !!! This style provide to the class the possibility to solo (yes we are not much to do it but still more people are trying) and it helps to reduce the stealth zerg : Yes it does... Look the big picture and live with it.

I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll try to respond as if you are not trolling...

You ask how this tool is not relative to NF RA system? The shortest purge timer is 5 minutes which is a lot of RA pts. The scout shield style has no timer and gives no immunity. This style is not really 'relative' to anything else in the game. There is nothing in this game that is relative to an anytime 14s 99% snare style that has no immunity.

I only brought up speed class meta to show an obvious point. I would not actually suggest giving bards something to make them solo better. I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them.

Thank you for recognizing that I know shit about this game. I've played it a lot over the years on most classes/roles, all three realms, solo, smallman, 8v8, zerg, etc. You talk about buffs to Hybrids, but nothing for archers? You may not have known this, but Archery on this server actually got a pretty big buff.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:08 AM by Phurie

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Sat 19 Sep 2020 8:54 PM
Uhh I´m perfectly on topic. Putting class abilities to vote like you suggested is just stupid. And you will have to read why.

Completely removing Ranger DA and D/Q from Pathfinding would actually normalize their archery and melee into the whereabouts of Scout archery and melee. If we put it up to vote and people just consider their own benefit when facing Rangers instead of overall balance in allowing every class (that would include Scouts) their niche and way to shine, you will see lots of abilities removed. Can you imagine the result of putting stealth, baseline stun, instant amnesia, bolt range mezz, celerity, shrooms and many more to a vote? I can.

Did you just call the server GMs stupid? The last vote was literally on how a class ability should work (GTAOE Line of Sight). If there's a hotly contested aspect to the game and the GM wants input from the playerbase, why not let them put it to a vote? Yes, putting everything to a vote would lead to some really bad outcomes, but if the GMs are on the fence about something, why not let them put it to a vote?

Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:15 AM by Parole

I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 10:23 AM by Symptomettes

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 3:54 AM
I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll try to respond as if you are not trolling...

You ask how this tool is not relative to NF RA system? The shortest purge timer is 5 minutes which is a lot of RA pts. The scout shield style has no timer and gives no immunity. This style is not really 'relative' to anything else in the game. There is nothing in this game that is relative to an anytime 14s 99% snare style that has no immunity.

I only brought up speed class meta to show an obvious point. I would not actually suggest giving bards something to make them solo better. I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them.

Thank you for recognizing that I know shit about this game. I've played it a lot over the years on most classes/roles, all three realms, solo, smallman, 8v8, zerg, etc. You talk about buffs to Hybrids, but nothing for archers? You may not have known this, but Archery on this server actually got a pretty big buff.

So to show an obvious point i will use your. Actually most hybrid that was buff from the begining with the damage table up / Determination / NF RA are still not fully incorporate into 8v8 Meta, but still they are way better from what they are supposed to be. Why don't you cry about it ? Playing Champ i guess ? NF RA into DAOC OLD MODEL, ofc they will have to adjust things and up/nerf class to make it legit and playable. IT IS NOT DAOC CLASSIC !

Old purge was 14 points with a 30 min timer. Now for 10 points you get purge on a 15 timer. Sure it doesn't impact the only cc scout has... Not at all ! Purge on a lower timer will make the cc less effective in RvR no ?

It has no immunity cause archery damage is not THAT good so it needs 2 or three full kite to kill something most of the time (Thanks IP + HP Boost + 2 pots). So if we remove it they will need to boost our damage to compensate ? And we go back to where we were... Stealth grp/zerg and Archery class that will dominate Keep fights like it was before Volley nerf. Splendid idea no ? I told you to look to the bigger picture instead of just calling for a legit nerf.

You are saying : I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them : Scout can't melee, doesn't get self buff, but still they need to nerf it for your own good cause in your mind "Scout" wasn't design with that tool ? So why don't you ask GM to remove everything they were doing the last past year and call for a rollback from what daoc is supposed to be before calling a nerf to a specific change no ? You have your own idea of daoc and everyone does, but why do you want to kill a class that isn't much played ?

You litteraly no shit i can tell you, so many things were given to most classes and still you take the only thing that don't impact 8v8 or Zerg meta and call for a nerf. What for ? Just because you can't kill a solo class design. That just prove how silly your request is.

I know damn well that we got a buff. And it was nerf two times after that, but you still give me that crap : pretty big buff. LoL stop the hypocrisy !

Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:51 PM by Dariussdars

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 10:23 AM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 3:54 AM
I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll try to respond as if you are not trolling...

You ask how this tool is not relative to NF RA system? The shortest purge timer is 5 minutes which is a lot of RA pts. The scout shield style has no timer and gives no immunity. This style is not really 'relative' to anything else in the game. There is nothing in this game that is relative to an anytime 14s 99% snare style that has no immunity.

I only brought up speed class meta to show an obvious point. I would not actually suggest giving bards something to make them solo better. I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them.

Thank you for recognizing that I know shit about this game. I've played it a lot over the years on most classes/roles, all three realms, solo, smallman, 8v8, zerg, etc. You talk about buffs to Hybrids, but nothing for archers? You may not have known this, but Archery on this server actually got a pretty big buff.

So to show an obvious point i will use your. Actually most hybrid that was buff from the begining with the damage table up / Determination / NF RA are still not fully incorporate into 8v8 Meta, but still they are way better from what they are supposed to be. Why don't you cry about it ? Playing Champ i guess ? NF RA into DAOC OLD MODEL, ofc they will have to adjust things and up/nerf class to make it legit and playable. IT IS NOT DAOC CLASSIC !

Old purge was 14 points with a 30 min timer. Now for 10 points you get purge on a 15 timer. Sure it doesn't impact the only cc scout has... Not at all ! Purge on a lower timer will make the cc less effective in RvR no ?

It has no immunity cause archery damage is not THAT good so it needs 2 or three full kite to kill something most of the time (Thanks IP + HP Boost + 2 pots). So if we remove it they will need to boost our damage to compensate ? And we go back to where we were... Stealth grp/zerg and Archery class that will dominate Keep fights like it was before Volley nerf. Splendid idea no ? I told you to look to the bigger picture instead of just calling for a legit nerf.

You are saying : I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them : Scout can't melee, doesn't get self buff, but still they need to nerf it for your own good cause in your mind "Scout" wasn't design with that tool ? So why don't you ask GM to remove everything they were doing the last past year and call for a rollback from what daoc is supposed to be before calling a nerf to a specific change no ? You have your own idea of daoc and everyone does, but why do you want to kill a class that isn't much played ?

You litteraly no shit i can tell you, so many things were given to most classes and still you take the only thing that don't impact 8v8 or Zerg meta and call for a nerf. What for ? Just because you can't kill a solo class design. That just prove how silly your request is.

I know damn well that we got a buff. And it was nerf two times after that, but you still give me that crap : pretty big buff. LoL stop the hypocrisy !

Archer damage isn't that good? I got crit shot twice for 1000 after being snared.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:57 PM by Phurie

I don't want to quote that whole thing, but this is to poster Symptomettes right above ^^. You are projecting a lot of assumptions on what I think or don't think. Whether I want changes to champs or other hybrid classes that are clearly OP for solo on this server (Champ/Reaver/Minstrel/Skald) has nothing to do with this post. The original post pointed out how exploitative and annoying the scout shield snare is to play against. I tried to point out why it doesn't fit into DAOC in its current form as it really has no comparable ability/style on any other class.

There are other things in this game that are also exploitative and annoying to play against, but they were all part of the game from the start. There has to be a different standard for something that was invented and added specifically for this server. The bottom line is, this is a newly invented style that is exploitive and annoying to play against.

I would rather scouts had pole arm, a pet, DA, and self buffs than a style that has no immunity, 99%snare for 14 seconds. I think most people here would rather scouts be given something else to buff them than this style that feels way outside the bounds of DAOC in any form.

Sun 20 Sep 2020 5:59 PM by gotwqqd

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:57 PM
I don't want to quote that whole thing, but this is to poster Symptomettes right above ^^. You are projecting a lot of assumptions on what I think or don't think. Whether I want changes to champs or other hybrid classes that are clearly OP for solo on this server (Champ/Reaver/Minstrel/Skald) has nothing to do with this post. The original post pointed out how exploitative and annoying the scout shield snare is to play against. I tried to point out why it doesn't fit into DAOC in its current form as it really has no comparable ability/style on any other class.

There are other things in this game that are also exploitative and annoying to play against, but they were all part of the game from the start. There has to be a different standard for something that was invented and added specifically for this server. The bottom line is, this is a newly invented style that is exploitive and annoying to play against.

I would rather scouts had pole arm, a pet, DA, and self buffs than a style that has no immunity, 99%snare for 14 seconds. I think most people here would rather scouts be given something else to buff them than this style that feels way outside the bounds of DAOC in any form.

How many classes are thwarted by this style?
A few hybrid or melee? How about the snare is changed to a spell type not melee and stoicism and det reduce?

Tue 22 Sep 2020 11:35 AM by Noashakra

This style is not fun to play against, and often enough, you have to blow purge to then disengage the fight.
It's not OP, because you can counter it, but it's a lose lose situation for both parties.

Scouts need to be buffed in another way. Remove this style and give them something else (better melee table?)

Tue 22 Sep 2020 4:23 PM by Symptomettes

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:51 PM
Archer damage isn't that good? I got crit shot twice for 1000 after being snared.

So if you get critshot by a scout for 1000, you don't have Spec Af buff + resist not fully cap + wearing leather otherwise it's not possible, maybe you are not even 50.... No point answering you anymore since you are QQing about something when you are not even fully gear and don't understand the mechanics of the game. Or give me a screenshot

Thu 24 Sep 2020 2:28 AM by Messerjockel

Wow, just met a scout which knew how to use it effectively.
What a lame anytime.
Hey Dev‘s just say it stays or you review it.
Saying nothing to this topic is going to fall on your feet and does not going to make the complaint go away.

Flup, hib

Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:30 AM by Cadebrennus

Parole wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:15 AM
I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally.

People are angry that an easy-to-kill class (Archers) is no longer easy to kill.

Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:33 AM by Cadebrennus

Symptomettes wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 10:23 AM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 3:54 AM
I can't tell if this is a troll or not but I'll try to respond as if you are not trolling...

You ask how this tool is not relative to NF RA system? The shortest purge timer is 5 minutes which is a lot of RA pts. The scout shield style has no timer and gives no immunity. This style is not really 'relative' to anything else in the game. There is nothing in this game that is relative to an anytime 14s 99% snare style that has no immunity.

I only brought up speed class meta to show an obvious point. I would not actually suggest giving bards something to make them solo better. I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them.

Thank you for recognizing that I know shit about this game. I've played it a lot over the years on most classes/roles, all three realms, solo, smallman, 8v8, zerg, etc. You talk about buffs to Hybrids, but nothing for archers? You may not have known this, but Archery on this server actually got a pretty big buff.

So to show an obvious point i will use your. Actually most hybrid that was buff from the begining with the damage table up / Determination / NF RA are still not fully incorporate into 8v8 Meta, but still they are way better from what they are supposed to be. Why don't you cry about it ? Playing Champ i guess ? NF RA into DAOC OLD MODEL, ofc they will have to adjust things and up/nerf class to make it legit and playable. IT IS NOT DAOC CLASSIC !

Old purge was 14 points with a 30 min timer. Now for 10 points you get purge on a 15 timer. Sure it doesn't impact the only cc scout has... Not at all ! Purge on a lower timer will make the cc less effective in RvR no ?

It has no immunity cause archery damage is not THAT good so it needs 2 or three full kite to kill something most of the time (Thanks IP + HP Boost + 2 pots). So if we remove it they will need to boost our damage to compensate ? And we go back to where we were... Stealth grp/zerg and Archery class that will dominate Keep fights like it was before Volley nerf. Splendid idea no ? I told you to look to the bigger picture instead of just calling for a legit nerf.

You are saying : I was making a point that the realms are different and not all comparable classes should be buffed/nerfed to normalize them : Scout can't melee, doesn't get self buff, but still they need to nerf it for your own good cause in your mind "Scout" wasn't design with that tool ? So why don't you ask GM to remove everything they were doing the last past year and call for a rollback from what daoc is supposed to be before calling a nerf to a specific change no ? You have your own idea of daoc and everyone does, but why do you want to kill a class that isn't much played ?

You litteraly no shit i can tell you, so many things were given to most classes and still you take the only thing that don't impact 8v8 or Zerg meta and call for a nerf. What for ? Just because you can't kill a solo class design. That just prove how silly your request is.

I know damn well that we got a buff. And it was nerf two times after that, but you still give me that crap : pretty big buff. LoL stop the hypocrisy !

There is a huge difference between can't melee and won't melee. A Scout player who doesn't put anything into melee other than Shield should be the one who is blamed, not the class.

Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:30 PM by ughsmash

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
Parole wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:15 AM
I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally.

People are angry that an easy-to-kill class (Archers) is no longer easy to kill.

This is a misrepresentation of the point.

I have watched Lygma kite out 3 melee at once with this style. It is so broken you can take melee out of a fight completely. Scouts almost always get to execute their game-plan, but melee classes never get to execute theirs on the Scout.

I am not saying nerf Scouts to be the punching bag of the game. I am saying THIS STYLE is busted. How are people defending it? Stop is the only anytime hard cc with no immunity timer in the game.

CC break abilities are based off of timers for a reason. The fact that there is no immunity timer makes exploitable game loops.

I do not arbitrarily want Scouts to be bad. This is a horrible argument. I have decided of all the classes in the game the Scout should be the bad one... NO. I play all 3 realms. Currently play Alb the most. I want Stop nerfed because the ability breaks the rules that all hard CC in DAoC follows and it creates exploitable game loops.

If people really think ranged interrupts are a counter to this ability you have not faced one of the good Scouts that abuse the ability. All that is needed is any terrain that can add line of site > Hit Stop > run over terrain > jump shoot > opponent gets to you again > Stop > run back over terrain > jump shoot > opponent gets to you again > Stop > run over terrain > jump shoot

After your first purge you are at he mercy of the Scout. Your option is to blow the Scout up fast and hope Stop does not land, because if the fight gets to where they can land Stop and break distance, your option is to run away or lose. Is this fair?

Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:37 PM by Ulio ah ah

put a line of buff on the shield.

Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:50 PM by DinoTriz

Unless you're a Berserker, Savage, or BM who loves to solo - I really don't understand why anyone would get angry about this ability.

1) Run the opposite way. Scouts have no way to catch you. The ability literally uses half of his endurance. He can't sprint.

2) The Scout will try to gain distance by turning around and running afterwards. Attack him with ranged.

Thu 24 Sep 2020 1:04 PM by Noashakra

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:50 PM
Unless you're a Berserker, Savage, or BM who loves to solo - I really don't understand why anyone would get angry about this ability.

1) Run the opposite way. Scouts have no way to catch you. The ability literally uses half of his endurance. He can't sprint.

2) The Scout will try to gain distance by turning around and running afterwards. Attack him with ranged.

It's what I am saying since the start of this topic.
It's not fun
It's useless vs an opponent with half a brain
It doesn't help scouts to win 1vs1
It's only OP when they Zerg 3/4vs2 because melee toons will never reach them long enough to kill them, while their friends kick your butt.

How was this a good idea? A good idea would be to rework the scout melee, by either giving them a bit more points, self buffs, special weapon styles or increasing their damage table. Then it's fun for the scout, and it's fun for the people fighting them.

Thu 24 Sep 2020 1:54 PM by Cipon

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:50 PM
Unless you're a Berserker, Savage, or BM who loves to solo - I really don't understand why anyone would get angry about this ability.

1) Run the opposite way. Scouts have no way to catch you. The ability literally uses half of his endurance. He can't sprint.

2) The Scout will try to gain distance by turning around and running afterwards. Attack him with ranged.

Berserkers and BM can't use range weapons?

Thu 24 Sep 2020 3:23 PM by Kwall0311

BMs have engage. They shouldnt even be considered able to complain

Thu 24 Sep 2020 4:13 PM by Messerjockel

At Dev‘s,

this thread is going for mir than 6 weeks
What about a statement?
I don’t want to appear pushy but 6+ weeks and 97 comments should be sufficient to say something....anything :-)

Flup, hib

Thu 24 Sep 2020 4:15 PM by protege

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 12:30 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 24 Sep 2020 6:30 AM
Parole wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Sep 2020 4:15 AM
I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally.

People are angry that an easy-to-kill class (Archers) is no longer easy to kill.

This is a misrepresentation of the point.

I have watched Lygma kite out 3 melee at once with this style. It is so broken you can take melee out of a fight completely. Scouts almost always get to execute their game-plan, but melee classes never get to execute theirs on the Scout.

I am not saying nerf Scouts to be the punching bag of the game. I am saying THIS STYLE is busted. How are people defending it? Stop is the only anytime hard cc with no immunity timer in the game.

CC break abilities are based off of timers for a reason. The fact that there is no immunity timer makes exploitable game loops.

I do not arbitrarily want Scouts to be bad. This is a horrible argument. I have decided of all the classes in the game the Scout should be the bad one... NO. I play all 3 realms. Currently play Alb the most. I want Stop nerfed because the ability breaks the rules that all hard CC in DAoC follows and it creates exploitable game loops.

If people really think ranged interrupts are a counter to this ability you have not faced one of the good Scouts that abuse the ability. All that is needed is any terrain that can add line of site > Hit Stop > run over terrain > jump shoot > opponent gets to you again > Stop > run back over terrain > jump shoot > opponent gets to you again > Stop > run over terrain > jump shoot

After your first purge you are at he mercy of the Scout. Your option is to blow the Scout up fast and hope Stop does not land, because if the fight gets to where they can land Stop and break distance, your option is to run away or lose. Is this fair?

Bingo.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:05 AM by Tyrlaan

Ah these stories. Perhaps try to use Stop on 3 melees (of which a few will likely be parried/evaded/blocked). Then tell me what your endurance bar is at. While melee #1 would be way past the duration already. And then allowing somebody to use terrain against you the way you describe is kinda stupid. Very stupid actually. Just saying. Can Scouts complain about assassins who use every turn around a corner in a bridge fight too?

Fri 25 Sep 2020 11:47 AM by Messerjockel

Tyrlaan wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:05 AM
Just saying. Can Scouts complain about assassins who use every turn around a corner in a bridge fight too?

Definitely my comment is off topic but I still want to say that I am amazed and baffled that players still use bridges or running in straight lines from gate to dock.
That those players die on a much higher rate is as I hope no surprise for anyone.

Flup, hib

P.s. used a bridge 1x in the last 1-2 month but I was not killed

Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:20 PM by Parole

Again for the reading imparied.

I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally. I think it's two guys who can't believe they died to a scout ONCE in the past two weeks.

There are soooooo many other things worth complaining about.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:58 PM by Messerjockel

It is definitely not ok to have an anytime snare with no immunity.
I really love that style if I would play a scout, not so much if I play against one.

Anyway, a lot of new scouts since the one week event and the amount of complaints and frequency will increase.

Yeah, I am a bigot too and level a scout level 17 at the moment. Why should I pass up this nice style which enables me to use my stronger range attacks instead weak melee?
I hope I can enjoy it at least for a bit.

Flup, hib

Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:08 PM by Phurie

Parole wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:20 PM
Again for the reading imparied.

I still don't see scouts dominating anything in rvr. nothing. why. does. this thread. exist? Literally. I think it's two guys who can't believe they died to a scout ONCE in the past two weeks.

There are soooooo many other things worth complaining about.

This post was never about Scouts 'dominating' rvr. It was about a style that was created on this server that frustrates players and is very exploitable. Before calling others out for being reading impaired, try reading the original post and some of the comments.

The fact that there are other things worth complaining about doesn't mean this style is okay and not worth evaluating. There are other threads to talk about other issues.

So why does this thread exist? It's because a lot of people don't like the new style for a lot of valid reasons. There are even scouts that say that it doesn't fix the 'problems' they have with the class. So I think a lot of frustrated players are trying to suggest removal or change of this style to improve the game experience. The GMs tell people to comment on the forums about issues with the game and there are a lot of players that have comments for this new Scout style.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:08 PM by Kwall0311

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 2:58 PM
It is definitely not ok to have an anytime snare with no immunity.
I really love that style if I would play a scout, not so much if I play against one.

Anyway, a lot of new scouts since the one week event and the amount of complaints and frequency will increase.

Yeah, I am a bigot too and level a scout level 17 at the moment. Why should I pass up this nice style which enables me to use my stronger range attacks instead weak melee?
I hope I can enjoy it at least for a bit.

Flup, hib

Its also not ok for the infamous adding FLUP to drop 900 dmg crit shots into targets fighting in combat outside DC. But hey thats a thing too

Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:34 PM by DinoTriz

If you die to a Scout, you got outplayed.

Pure and simple.

Is Stop a strong ability? Yes.

Can you spam it like everyone is claiming? No.

It's probably the most expensive endurance ability in the game. Funny how no one mentions that.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:38 PM by Phurie

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 3:34 PM
If you die to a Scout, you got outplayed.

Pure and simple.

Is Stop a strong ability? Yes.

Can you spam it like everyone is claiming? No.

It's probably the most expensive endurance ability in the game. Funny how no one mentions that.

I've seen a solo scout hit 2 targets with stop and have enough time/end to make it out of range to re-stealth then open up with another crit shot. Are you not using end regen potions?

Fri 25 Sep 2020 4:13 PM by Messerjockel

[/quote]

Its also not ok for the infamous adding FLUP to drop 900 dmg crit shots into targets fighting in combat outside DC. But hey thats a thing too
[/quote]

I think they fixed that.
Cannot remember that it happened lately but now my critshot often hits a target which is not in combat for standard damage.

To be honest, to be infamous feels like a badge of honor.

Flup, hib.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 4:21 PM by Kwall0311

Its not fixed, and thats not something to be proud of. Those are two facts

Fri 25 Sep 2020 5:59 PM by Jaxx

The problem is not the scout root (or snare!), the problem is no immun to all melee snare, it's an aberration to chain cc without immun.... it reminds me the chain stun/mez at start DAoC (1.36

).

Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:00 PM by Parole

No melee snare in game has an immunity timer. People complaining about the 99% snare lasting 14 sec need to realize it lasts for about 8 sec then starts to wear off for the remaining 6 allowing you to move. Every assassin in game can spam garrote over and over + cripple poison and it is FAR worse. Let's put immunity on that! Assasins all know they can kite a tank easily w/ snare, stealth and re-PA if they wanted to. This is no different than scout, except they have waaay fewer tools to use.

if you want to add immunity to snare styles add it to everyone that has one. I think it is hilarious that people think it's NOT OK to run away from the scout if needed to survive. lmfao this is what scouts have to do to since the server was released. They still have to do this if they want to stand a chance vs good assassins.

if you died to a scout solo it's because you pushed too hard when you shouldn't have. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm just being an ass, but you got out played. As a scout you have to run from most fights if you want to live especially at lower rr. if you take this away from the scout then they fall back into what they had before, and they will just die.

Scout is funny - nobody thinks they should survive with just archery build, nobody thinks they should be able to win in melee fight, and nobody ever wants to have to run away from them. Just make scouts easy rps and everyone is happy.

give scout insta 6 sec lifetap spell
give scout self buffs
give scout pet
give scout arnsman dmg table
give scout d/q and str/con debuffs like champ
give scout dds
give scout disease and proc style
give scout shield dps (like crit shot but in combat)
give scout twf
give scout dual wield
give scout poisons
give scout heal proc
give scout mez
give scout better detect hidden
give scout climb walls
give scout charm pet
give scout speed burst
give scout snare style ><

trolls.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:14 PM by protege

Parole wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:00 PM
No melee snare in game has an immunity timer. People complaining about the 99% snare lasting 14 sec need to realize it lasts for about 8 sec then starts to wear off for the remaining 6 allowing you to move. Every assassin in game can spam garrote over and over + cripple poison and it is FAR worse. Let's put immunity on that! Assasins all know they can kite a tank easily w/ snare, stealth and re-PA if they wanted to. This is no different than scout, except they have waaay fewer tools to use.

if you want to add immunity to snare styles add it to everyone that has one. I think it is hilarious that people think it's NOT OK to run away from the scout if needed to survive. lmfao this is what scouts have to do to since the server was released. They still have to do this if they want to stand a chance vs good assassins.

if you died to a scout solo it's because you pushed too hard when you shouldn't have. Yes, I know it sounds like I'm just being an ass, but you got out played. As a scout you have to run from most fights if you want to live especially at lower rr. if you take this away from the scout then they fall back into what they had before, and they will just die.

Scout is funny - nobody thinks they should survive with just archery build, nobody thinks they should be able to win in melee fight, and nobody ever wants to have to run away from them. Just make scouts easy rps and everyone is happy.

give scout insta 6 sec lifetap spell
give scout self buffs
give scout pet
give scout arnsman dmg table
give scout d/q and str/con debuffs like champ
give scout dds
give scout disease and proc style
give scout shield dps (like crit shot but in combat)
give scout twf
give scout dual wield
give scout poisons
give scout heal proc
give scout mez
give scout better detect hidden
give scout climb walls
give scout charm pet
give scout speed burst
give scout snare style ><

trolls.

There is an immunity timer on snare poison.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:28 PM by Noashakra

When I read parole on this thread, what I read is
"Strawman stawman strawmaning strawman, but strawman stawman strawmaning strawman, and strawman stawman strawmaning strawman"

Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:30 PM by Phurie

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:28 PM
When I read parole on this thread, what I read is
"Strawman stawman strawaning strawman, but strawman stawman strawaning strawman, and strawman stawman strawaning strawman"

TRUE ^^ - It's way easier to start talking about how OP other things are than it is to focus on why this style is balanced or fits in this game at all.

Probably because this style has no place in this game in it's current form, on ANY class. It's like someone had ideas for a style and threw out some options to pick One, but they put them all in the same style.

Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:25 PM by Parole

Phurie wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 9:30 PM
Noashakra wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 6:28 PM
When I read parole on this thread, what I read is
"Strawman stawman strawaning strawman, but strawman stawman strawaning strawman, and strawman stawman strawaning strawman"

TRUE ^^ - It's way easier to start talking about how OP other things are than it is to focus on why this style is balanced or fits in this game at all.

Probably because this style has no place in this game in it's current form, on ANY class. It's like someone had ideas for a style and threw out some options to pick One, but they put them all in the same style.

I just gave a list of 17 other abilities they could give scout to try for balance. Better than the answers others have of "Nerf it".

If anyone is hopelessly dying to the omfg op scout... I am sorry. Maybe the answer is that scouts are just that much better than whatever you are playing. /eyeroll

Sat 26 Sep 2020 3:16 AM by Phurie

Parole wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:25 PM
I just gave a list of 17 other abilities they could give scout to try for balance. Better than the answers others have of "Nerf it".

If anyone is hopelessly dying to the omfg op scout... I am sorry. Maybe the answer is that scouts are just that much better than whatever you are playing. /eyeroll

You named a bunch of random things, most of which make no sense on a scout. Pets and self buffs are what make Mid/Hib archer classes different, scouts get shield (9s melee stun is pretty damn good on an archer class). I'm not a GM, but since you seem to care and I'm bored, here's what I think of your 17 abilities for balance:

give scout insta 6 sec lifetap spell -doesn't make sense, BD special, cloth wearer/list caster etc
give scout self buffs - Ranger special, but you could normalize archery by giving self buffs in all bow lines and lower Bow dmg table (too high atm anyway)
give scout pet - Hunter's thing, also minstrel, doesn't make sense on scout without giving to Ranger (no one wants this)
give scout arnsman dmg table- sure, better than this style, and probably not even good enough since scouts don't spec melee
give scout d/q and str/con debuffs like champ - Hybrid melee, uses power, doesn't make sense on scout
give scout dds - Need power pool and casting ability, doesn't make sense on scout
give scout disease and proc style - disease is either caster or poison, doesn't make sense for scout / Proc style could work, maybe at mid/high melee spec for balance
give scout shield dps (like crit shot but in combat) - not sure what this means, but I don't think there is precedence for something similar to this
give scout twf - sure, take it away from reaver, see how that works out, only one class per realm has TWF
give scout dual wield - Ranger's special thing, may as well copy past Archer and make all 3 realm archers the same if you do this
give scout poisons - poisons are special for assassin, roll an assassin if you want poisons
give scout heal proc - you have heal procs on armor, if you mean casted proc like friar, scout's not a healer/hybrid/caster, doesn't make sense for scout
give scout mez - Minstrel special, need power pool/caster ability, already have an advantage over other realms with minstrel in stealth group
give scout better detect hidden - Sure, maybe an ability that has a cooldown of 3 mins out of combat to activate that gives better detect and lowers assassin sight advantage. Would be hard pressed not to give this to other archers too tho
give scout climb walls - Ranged classes should never get climb walls, too exploitable
give scout charm pet - See above pet comment
give scout speed burst - Ranger special, but if you'd take instead of Shield style, please take it
give scout snare style >< - Scouts actually have a side snare in blades already >_<

Sat 26 Sep 2020 3:44 AM by gotwqqd

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 3:16 AM
Parole wrote: ↑
Fri 25 Sep 2020 10:25 PM
I just gave a list of 17 other abilities they could give scout to try for balance. Better than the answers others have of "Nerf it".

If anyone is hopelessly dying to the omfg op scout... I am sorry. Maybe the answer is that scouts are just that much better than whatever you are playing. /eyeroll

You named a bunch of random things, most of which make no sense on a scout. Pets and self buffs are what make Mid/Hib archer classes different, scouts get shield (9s melee stun is pretty damn good on an archer class). I'm not a GM, but since you seem to care and I'm bored, here's what I think of your 17 abilities for balance:

give scout insta 6 sec lifetap spell -doesn't make sense, BD special, cloth wearer/list caster etc
give scout self buffs - Ranger special, but you could normalize archery by giving self buffs in all bow lines and lower Bow dmg table (too high atm anyway)
give scout pet - Hunter's thing, also minstrel, doesn't make sense on scout without giving to Ranger (no one wants this)
give scout arnsman dmg table- sure, better than this style, and probably not even good enough since scouts don't spec melee
give scout d/q and str/con debuffs like champ - Hybrid melee, uses power, doesn't make sense on scout
give scout dds - Need power pool and casting ability, doesn't make sense on scout
give scout disease and proc style - disease is either caster or poison, doesn't make sense for scout / Proc style could work, maybe at mid/high melee spec for balance
give scout shield dps (like crit shot but in combat) - not sure what this means, but I don't think there is precedence for something similar to this
give scout twf - sure, take it away from reaver, see how that works out, only one class per realm has TWF
give scout dual wield - Ranger's special thing, may as well copy past Archer and make all 3 realm archers the same if you do this
give scout poisons - poisons are special for assassin, roll an assassin if you want poisons
give scout heal proc - you have heal procs on armor, if you mean casted proc like friar, scout's not a healer/hybrid/caster, doesn't make sense for scout
give scout mez - Minstrel special, need power pool/caster ability, already have an advantage over other realms with minstrel in stealth group
give scout better detect hidden - Sure, maybe an ability that has a cooldown of 3 mins out of combat to activate that gives better detect and lowers assassin sight advantage. Would be hard pressed not to give this to other archers too tho
give scout climb walls - Ranged classes should never get climb walls, too exploitable
give scout charm pet - See above pet comment
give scout speed burst - Ranger special, but if you'd take instead of Shield style, please take it
give scout snare style >< - Scouts actually have a side snare in blades already >_<

A shield dps style with tohit bonus and low end cost makes all the sense in the world

Sat 26 Sep 2020 4:26 AM by IdiamVonGawaine

Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 3:16 AM
lower Bow dmg table (too high atm anyway)[/b]

Where are you people getting this garbage from?

A sub rr5 hib archer with 50 in bow, 48 in pathfinding can't even kill a cloth caster that's grouped without assistance from other archers, despite investing everything in bow, let alone anything with shield spec or decent rp's. Targets just run out of range, CC/melee the archer, or the archer gets outhealed by any given healer. The ONLY way to regularly kill anything grouped is by assisting, which is the SAME THING CASTERS AND TANKS DO. And yet you want to attack archers?

Even solo targets require careful scrutiny and are chosen for their low hp's/lack of armor, and engaged when they are distracted or attacking a mob.

Archer damage is front loaded with the crit shot, which takes 3.9 seconds to load, in the case of my archer. So let's do some math using my archer's standard draw times:

3.9 seconds for a crit shot
3.3 seconds for a standard shot
1.6 seconds for a rapid fire shot

Crit/standard shot total time: 7.2 seconds
Crit/rapid fire shot total time: 5.5 seconds

How many casts can a caster manage in 7.2 seconds? How about 5.5?

My mana chanter can out dps my archer by almost twice the dps with his pbaoe, and he can do that to multiple targets, not just lone targets.

For every capped crit shot of 1k or higher, there's also the critshot that hits for 3-400.....on a cloth caster, and the sub 300's on tanks.

Archer damage is fine, and is demonstably inferior to casted damage despite the front loading of the crit shot.

Sat 26 Sep 2020 7:24 AM by Cadebrennus

IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 4:26 AM
Phurie wrote: ↑
Sat 26 Sep 2020 3:16 AM
lower Bow dmg table (too high atm anyway)[/b]

Where are you people getting this garbage from?

A sub rr5 hib archer with 50 in bow, 48 in pathfinding can't even kill a cloth caster that's grouped without assistance from other archers, despite investing everything in bow, let alone anything with shield spec or decent rp's. Targets just run out of range, CC/melee the archer, or the archer gets outhealed by any given healer. The ONLY way to regularly kill anything grouped is by assisting, which is the SAME THING CASTERS AND TANKS DO. And yet you want to attack archers?

Even solo targets require careful scrutiny and are chosen for their low hp's/lack of armor, and engaged when they are distracted or attacking a mob.

Archer damage is front loaded with the crit shot, which takes 3.9 seconds to load, in the case of my archer. So let's do some math using my archer's standard draw times:

3.9 seconds for a crit shot
3.3 seconds for a standard shot
1.6 seconds for a rapid fire shot

Crit/standard shot total time: 7.2 seconds
Crit/rapid fire shot total time: 5.5 seconds

How many casts can a caster manage in 7.2 seconds? How about 5.5?

My mana chanter can out dps my archer by almost twice the dps with his pbaoe, and he can do that to multiple targets, not just lone targets.

For every capped crit shot of 1k or higher, there's also the critshot that hits for 3-400.....on a cloth caster, and the sub 300's on tanks.

Archer damage is fine, and is demonstably inferior to casted damage despite the front loading of the crit shot.

Completely agree 100% but unfortunately you used a logical argument. Most people here blow up when they see a logical argument

Sat 26 Sep 2020 9:16 PM by Phurie

^^ Did you really just compare bow damage to PBAOE caster damage? It's extremely rare that a caster can stand on top of someone and PBAOE without getting interrupted and killed. It's not fair to compare that damage to range from stealth damage.

EDIT: besides that, this threat is about the Scout shield style that doesn't fit in this game, focusing on bow damage is a bit off topic

Sun 27 Sep 2020 9:06 AM by Siouxsie

Most of the scouts on this server prefer ez-mode. Pre-Stop style, there was a Scout that was actually really good in melee and very hard to beat (Skairipa anyone remember them?)

Scouts are on the same damage table as hunters and rangers. If you spec 45 in shield and rest in bow and stealth and hardly anything in melee, who's fault is that? Yours.

The Stop style was a complete mistake and has allowed Scouts to be lazy and not need to even spec in melee. Why bother with melee when you have a permanent CC ability that allows you to crit shot your target over and over?

There's been ZERO response from Phoenix staff on this.

Scouts already have slam, they don't need an ability that allows them to CC anything at any time, infinitely.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 1:01 AM by andreynk257

This ability is absolutely ridiculous, its basically an IWIN button that can be used over and over again. It needs to go, period.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:13 AM by IdiamVonGawaine

andreynk257 wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 1:01 AM
This ability is absolutely ridiculous, its basically an IWIN button that can be used over and over again. It needs to go, period.

Imagine the outcry if every shield spec class could do this lol!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mon 28 Sep 2020 7:33 PM by Tyrlaan

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 9:06 AM
Most of the scouts on this server prefer ez-mode. Pre-Stop style, there was a Scout that was actually really good in melee and very hard to beat (Skairipa anyone remember them?)

Uhh the influx in Scouts is actually due to Stop and the archery rework. And you could have left that second sentence at "There was one Scout."

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 9:06 AM
Scouts are on the same damage table as hunters and rangers. If you spec 45 in shield and rest in bow and stealth and hardly anything in melee, who's fault is that? Yours.

And what does damage table matter in a world of dual wielders or Hunters with a pet?

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Sun 27 Sep 2020 9:06 AM
The Stop style was a complete mistake and has allowed Scouts to be lazy and not need to even spec in melee. Why bother with melee when you have a permanent CC ability
that allows you to crit shot your target over and over?

There's been ZERO response from Phoenix staff on this.

Scouts already have slam, they don't need an ability that allows them to CC anything at any time, infinitely.

Last I checked Shield is a melee line - kinda like bow rangers only spec for the side stun - in a melee line, Celtic Dual. And the CC is at melee range so hardly at any time.

I have yet to hear any proposal other than nerf Scouts back to where they were - because none of the ideas thrown around is going to make people play a Scout. Shield is the special line for Scouts, it should make a difference. No change to the 1h melee is ever going to help Scouts win toe-to-toe with any of the other stealther classes. And ever since the change to charges and buff to Ranger/Hunter selfbuffs, Scout archery was only 2nd best. So you see Scouts using Stop because there actually is Scouts playing - still less than Rangers or any of the assassins - who get "to CC anything at any time, infinitely" too, btw. Garrote and disease, you know.

Where are all the people playing their supposedly ez-mode Scout? Playing their ez-mode Rangers or assassins and coming here to complain?

Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:17 PM by DinoTriz

It sounds like a lot of the people complaining about the ability have:

1) Never fought a Scout
or
2) Never played a Scout

The ability is only 99% for a VERY short amount of time. It QUICKLY diminishes over that period of 14 seconds.

So in reality it gives you a chance to run away, but repeatedly reapplying it to anything that hits harder than a wet noodle is a death sentence.

It's like running back to an enraged tiger and slapping it in the face. You only get to do that so many times before you wind up in the hospital.

On paper it looks powerful, but it's like giving a machine gun to a toddler. In reality nothing comes of it.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:53 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:17 PM
It sounds like a lot of the people complaining about the ability have:

1) Never fought a Scout
or
2) Never played a Scout

The ability is only 99% for a VERY short amount of time. It QUICKLY diminishes over that period of 14 seconds.

So in reality it gives you a chance to run away, but repeatedly reapplying it to anything that hits harder than a wet noodle is a death sentence.

It's like running back to an enraged tiger and slapping it in the face. You only get to do that so many times before you wind up in the hospital.

On paper it looks powerful, but it's like giving a machine gun to a toddler. In reality nothing comes of it.

How exactly do you run away when you are snared? You act like it takes a long time for the scout to run off, /face, and /crit shot whoever he snared.

You seriously think players are that bad they can't get a crit shot off from range in a matter of seconds?

Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:59 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:17 PM
So in reality it gives you a chance to run away...

So does shield slam.

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:17 PM
On paper it looks....

Ridiculous, due to the fact that it's a 14 second melee snare that has NO IMMUNITY timer.

Just give it the same immunity timer every other stun/root has and be done with it already.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 9:03 PM by Kwall0311

What ? Doesnt break on damage? What game are you playing. Stop giving false information

Mon 28 Sep 2020 9:06 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:53 PM
How exactly do you run away when you are snared? You act like it takes a long time for the scout to run off, /face, and /crit shot whoever he snared.

You seriously think players are that bad they can't get a crit shot off from range in a matter of seconds?

1) You can't crit shot someone when they're in combat (yes, I know it's sometimes bugged)

2) If the Scout runs far away, the moment he hits you with a normal shot (like 250 damage), he breaks the snare and you can run the opposite way. The Scout gets no tools to catch you.

3) If he's close when he shoots you, eat one of his normal shots (like 250 damage) and attack him. He'll probably be at half health by this point. If he tries to reapply snare, he better pray he lands it, has enough endo at this point (lol), and doesn't suffer from low health snare.

99% of the time the Scout is facing an Assassin who has already snared him with poison so good luck with trying to kite.

Mon 28 Sep 2020 9:25 PM by DinoTriz

IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:59 PM
Ridiculous, due to the fact that it's a 14 second melee snare that doesn't break on damage

lol no

Mon 28 Sep 2020 10:00 PM by IdiamVonGawaine

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 9:25 PM
IdiamVonGawaine wrote: ↑
Mon 28 Sep 2020 8:59 PM
Ridiculous, due to the fact that it's a 14 second melee snare that doesn't break on damage

lol no

Noted.
Corrected.

Thank you.

Tue 29 Sep 2020 6:22 AM by ughsmash

People arguing to keep Stop as is have failed or are not even attempting to provide a counter to the gameplay loop I have provided that only Stop allows: Stop > Run to LoS > Jump Shoot so you cannot be interrupted by DD charges or abilities > Repeat whenever they get close.

I have video evidence of this gameplay being abused as provided by another player on these forums. Here is the video of this being abused: https://youtu.be/X-RF3nPKE_E

If you can actually defend the playstyle being used as "He is just outplaying them", then we will never find common ground. The players are trying to dd interrupt and everything, but as you can see going over LoS and jump shooting makes all the potential counters worthless.

Your option really does become:
1.) Hope Stop misses until the Scout is out of endurance
2.) You obliterate the Scout instantly and they have purge down
2.) Run away if they land Stop once, because you are now going to be kited until dead

So, in summary. Lose to Scout or run away and nobody wins. WEEEEEEEEEEE

Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:27 PM by Messerjockel

The question we should ask ourselves, why did the GMs introduce a style like that without any immunity?
I can actually not follow the logic to entertain an anytime without immunity, there must be a logic that they ignored the general rule to introduce the style without immunity, I just don’t understand why. Maybe to make players angry :-).

There are after the event already more scouts, every day more hibs and mids are going to start to complaint.

It is just a question of time that there are enough complaints and this thread is always in the top 5 for 6-7 weeks. Every day it gets more difficult to ignore it and take necessary actions.

Flup, hib

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:32 AM by Tyrlaan

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:27 PM
There are after the event already more scouts, every day more hibs and mids are going to start to complaint.

And every day the world is gonna end - but this time for real. In reality there´s still many more Rangers in /serverinfo even though Alb has seen a shift in population due to relics. I mean Scouts get a full 10% melee relic bonus right now (boosting their archery to where Rangers are without relics) and people still play their Rangers instead. And in this thread it´s the same 5 people complaining over and over about the ability who - no surprise here - continue to play their Rangers and assassins.

Maybe - just maybe - using Stop to get away or to successfully kite shoot people isn´t as easy-mode as people claim... not any more easy-mode than just casting buffs to cap D/Q and damadd and start shooting people or to speed burst away when things get hairy (speed burst can be used proactively unlike Stop which would require somebody be in your face already - and then to land it).

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:46 PM by Parole

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:27 PM
The question we should ask ourselves, why did the GMs introduce a style like that without any immunity?
I can actually not follow the logic to entertain an anytime without immunity, there must be a logic that they ignored the general rule to introduce the style without immunity, I just don’t understand why. Maybe to make players angry :-).

There are after the event already more scouts, every day more hibs and mids are going to start to complaint.

It is just a question of time that there are enough complaints and this thread is always in the top 5 for 6-7 weeks. Every day it gets more difficult to ignore it and take necessary actions.

Flup, hib

no snare style has immunity. get gud.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:52 PM by Kwall0311

Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:27 PM
The question we should ask ourselves, why did the GMs introduce a style like that without any immunity?
I can actually not follow the logic to entertain an anytime without immunity, there must be a logic that they ignored the general rule to introduce the style without immunity, I just don’t understand why. Maybe to make players angry :-).

There are after the event already more scouts, every day more hibs and mids are going to start to complaint.

It is just a question of time that there are enough complaints and this thread is always in the top 5 for 6-7 weeks. Every day it gets more difficult to ignore it and take necessary actions.

Flup, hib

This is a direct quote from the person that added/created this ability.

"A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.
Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease."

Wed 30 Sep 2020 3:07 PM by Sepplord

Parole wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:46 PM
no snare style has immunity

castsnares neither...
they have something else in common though too, they are faaaaar away from 99%

STOP practically is a root, only technically it is a snare

Wed 30 Sep 2020 3:49 PM by ughsmash

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 2:52 PM
Messerjockel wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Sep 2020 10:27 PM
The question we should ask ourselves, why did the GMs introduce a style like that without any immunity?
I can actually not follow the logic to entertain an anytime without immunity, there must be a logic that they ignored the general rule to introduce the style without immunity, I just don’t understand why. Maybe to make players angry :-).

There are after the event already more scouts, every day more hibs and mids are going to start to complaint.

It is just a question of time that there are enough complaints and this thread is always in the top 5 for 6-7 weeks. Every day it gets more difficult to ignore it and take necessary actions.

Flup, hib

This is a direct quote from the person that added/created this ability.

"A root is nothing more than a 99% snare and hence this is a melee snare and just like any other melee snare it doesn't cause immunity.
Does it need to be a melee root? No, but the problem with the scout is that without it, once in melee it's a one trick pony and that trick is hard countered with purge which literally everyone has and unlike for casters it's pretty much a given that a scout will end up in melee unless the target is afk. Scout needs something to make it viable once in melee and some escape mechanism seemed more fitting than some kind of melee damage increase or damage taken decrease."

Well now that we can see the degenerate gameplay loop this ability creates the "seemed more fitting to give them an escape" path can be viewed as a misguided way to handle the class.

Still nobody commenting on the video that was posted showing how abusive Stop is. All of the people who want to keep it consistently avoid the direct topic of how the ability being spammable is broken.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 4:15 PM by DinoTriz

So much misinformation here.

1) You can't realistically spam it. It's extremely endo hungry and even with endo pots, you go ooe really quickly.

2) Even though it's a 99% snare, it does not work like a root. It diminishes quickly. The target is rooted for like 1 second and the snare quickly fades over a period of 14 seconds.

Please level up a Scout and try it out yourself.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 5:52 PM by ughsmash

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 4:15 PM
So much misinformation here.

1) You can't realistically spam it. It's extremely endo hungry and even with endo pots, you go ooe really quickly.

2) Even though it's a 99% snare, it does not work like a root. It diminishes quickly. The target is rooted for like 1 second and the snare quickly fades over a period of 14 seconds.

Please level up a Scout and try it out yourself.

Again.... Clearly you have not watched the video of it being spammed. You are making posts asking if Berserkers or Blademasters are better, so I would not expect you to understand how a single ability on a single class with a spammable root would negatively impact the game. Watch the video I provided where the Scout shows in every encounter they can Stop > go over LoS to not be interrupted > Jump shoot > rinse and repeat. Even on classes such as Thane and VW because the LoS jump shooting mitigates the counter.

You don't need to spam the ability once it lands, as your endurance has regened by the time they get to you again. And you can clearly see in the video it can effectively be used against multiple people at a time while he still has end to sprint away and continue jump shooting over LoS because of this broken ability.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 6:07 PM by DinoTriz

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 5:52 PM
Again.... Clearly you have not watched the video of it being spammed. You are making posts asking if Berserkers or Blademasters are better, so I would not expect you to understand how a single ability on a single class with a spammable root would negatively impact the game. Watch the video I provided where the Scout shows in every encounter they can Stop > go over LoS to not be interrupted > Jump shoot > rinse and repeat. Even on classes such as Thane and VW because the LoS jump shooting mitigates the counter.

You don't need to spam the ability once it lands, as your endurance has regened by the time they get to you again. And you can clearly see in the video it can effectively be used against multiple people at a time while he still has end to sprint away and continue jump shooting over LoS because of this broken ability.

Again...You're getting your information from a single video.

That guy could have Second Wind. The ability cost 45 Endo. That's over twice the amount of Slam. Ever play a class with Slam? You can run into endo issues trying to spam that as well. Even. with. endo. pots.

And just because I ask which is better between Zerker and BM has literally nothing to do with my knowledge of this ability. Until you actually level up a Scout and try and use the ability in RVR, you won't fully understand it.

Your ignorance is clear to anyone who has played a Scout.

Here's a great example of a Scout using Stop to peel (notice that he has multiple Endurance pots AND keep an eye on his endurance): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Og9fkSV8I

Wed 30 Sep 2020 6:26 PM by ughsmash

I guess I can't understand the power of an ability by having it used against me, or watching it be used against others.

The counterpoint that it costs a lot of endurance is a really good one. Cant be OP guys, it costs too much end to use the style indefinitely... Thanks for your valuable insight.

I did not base my post off of the video. I found the video after making my post. I used the video as a great example of why the gameplay loop this ability creates is degenerate, because people were saying you can DD interrupt, and the video is proof that you cannot if the Scout uses a little terrain.

Scouts can be buffed in a way that does not make them an absolute disaster to play against.

Make the snare an actual snare instead of rooting you... Buff their melee damage. Give shield a damaging style with plus to hit for them so their melee isn't garbage. DO NOT allow Scouts to kite you forever.

HONESTLY ask yourself. Is the Stop style fun to use AND fun to play against?

Wed 30 Sep 2020 6:37 PM by DinoTriz

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 6:26 PM
I guess I can't understand the power of an ability by having it used against me, or watching it be used against others.

The counterpoint that it costs a lot of endurance is a really good one. Cant be OP guys, it costs too much end to use the style indefinetely... Thanks for your valuable insight.

I did not base my post off of the video. I found the video after making my post. I used the video as a great example of why the gameplay loop this ability creates is degenerate, because people were saying you can DD interrupt, and the video is proof that you cannot if the Scout uses a little terrain.

Scouts can be buffed in a why that does not make them an absolute disaster to play against.

Make the snare an actual snare instead of rooting you... Buff their melee damage. Give shield a damaging style with plus to hit for them so their melee isn't garbage. DO NOT allow Scouts to kite you forever.

HONESTLY ask yourself. Is the Stop style fun to use AND fun to play against.

You still don't get it.

It roots you for a mere few seconds and fades.

That means you aren't rooted for 14 seconds like you think.

This is why you actually need to use the ability to see that it isn't all that it's cracked up to be.

If the Stop ability was fun to use (or OP) I'd still be playing my Scout. Like I said, it rarely is a deciding factor in anyone of my fights.

I guess if I fought a Berserker or Savage? But then again, how many of those solo? And reapplying Stop comes down to "Do I have enough Endo?" and "Do I have enough Health?"

9 times out of 10 the answers to both of those questions is no.

I'll post the video again (keep in mind Stop costs 45 endo): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Og9fkSV8I

Wed 30 Sep 2020 8:59 PM by ughsmash

@DinoTriz I will break this down for you but slower so you can understand:
Ability:
Stop
Why Nerf?:
Because OP
OP How?:

No immunity timer root anytime ability

No comparable ability in the game (Important because counters to CC have not been changed, but a new CC with no counter was implemented)

Ability to permanently keep melee from executing their game plan against a Scout, while simultaneously ensuring the Scout can nearly always execute their gameplan

Roots on range with a queued attack allow you to repeatedly use jumping LoS to your advantage, which makes natural counters ineffective (IE: Instant DD Charges, Champ/Skald/Thane instants, Throwing weapons, Bows, etc...)

Cons:

It costs a lot of endurance

Proof?:

Solo - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RF3nPKE_E&feature=youtu.be

Group - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0Og9fkSV8I (Provided by DinoTriz to show how the ability is not busted...)

You literally understand so little about how this ability is busted, you provided the Group example above to show Stop is not overpowered... You in fact show how a new divergent game play became available because of how good this ability is. The Scout doesn't even use his bow and is effective. Actual LOL!

Where in any of my posts did I even allude to to understanding that Stop root lasted the entire duration at full effectiveness? I have argued on topic the entire time. Stuck to my guns. You are literally trying to put words in my mouth to win an argument with yourself I am guessing? Because I didn't say any of that...

If Stop really hasn't been a deciding factor in many of your fights, then we agree. The ability should be removed. Check mate?

Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:25 PM by DinoTriz

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 8:59 PM
No immunity timer root anytime ability
No comparable ability in the game (Important because counters to CC have not been changed, but a new CC with no counter was implemented)
Ability to permanently keep melee from executing their game plan against a Scout, while simultaneously ensuring the Scout can nearly always execute their gameplan
Roots on range with a queued attack allow you to repeatedly use jumping LoS to your advantage, which makes natural counters ineffective (IE: Instant DD Charges, Champ/Skald/Thane instants, Throwing weapons, Bows, etc...)

You literally understand so little about how this ability is busted, you provided the Group example above to show Stop is not overpowered... You in fact show how a new divergent game play became available because of how good this ability is. The Scout doesn't even use his bow and is effective. Actual LOL!

Where in any of my posts did I even allude to to understanding that Stop root lasted the entire duration at full effectiveness? I have argued on topic the entire time. Stuck to my guns. You are literally trying to put words in my mouth to win an argument with yourself I am guessing? Because I didn't say any of that...

If Stop really hasn't been a deciding factor in many of your fights, then we agree. The ability should be removed. Check mate?

"No immunity timer root anytime ability"
No, it's a Snare. It's 99% for the first few seconds. After that, it's no better than a disease snare. If you notice in the video I linked, the guy uses Stop on an enemy VW and the VW is seen seconds later running away. Again, every time you claim it's a 14 second root shows just how clueless you are about the ability.

"No comparable ability in the game"
Yes there is. Other melee snares. And others last MUCH longer.

"Ability to permanently keep melee from executing their game plan against a Scout..."
No. Did you even watch the video I linked? The video you linked and claim doesn't even prove this. The worst case scenario is when he reapplies Stop once in the first fight.

"Roots on range with a queued attack allow you to repeatedly use jumping LoS to your advantage..."
This has nothing to do with the Stop ability. A Scout can do this without using the ability. And if a Scout has to use terrain to win a fight, he's outplaying you. Plain and simple. That says WAY more about the Scout's weakness as a class than anything. Fight a Scout on flat land then. There's your counter.

I agree with getting rid of Stop. Not because it's OP but because it's really not useful outside of very rare circumstances.

Anyone who complains about it has no experience whatsoever with the ability, past looking at it on the Charplan (You).

Please level a 1337 Scout and show me how deadly and OP Stop is. I'd love to see the disappointment on your face.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:47 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 4:15 PM
So much misinformation here.

1) You can't realistically spam it. It's extremely endo hungry and even with endo pots, you go ooe really quickly.

2) Even though it's a 99% snare, it does not work like a root. It diminishes quickly. The target is rooted for like 1 second and the snare quickly fades over a period of 14 seconds.

Please level up a Scout and try it out yourself.

So Stop is obviously a useless ability, since the root/snare duration is so short.

Yet every single Scout on this server uses it every single time anyone comes in melee range.

Yeah, totally useless ability.

Your attempts at deflection are great entertainment though.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:59 PM by thirian24

Idk why anybody would have any type of back and forth with DInoTriz.

The root/snare whatever the fuck you want to call it, lasts 9 secs of pure stop you in your tracks before you can slowly move again if the snare isn't broken before hand... and can be reapplied indefinitely.

I'm all for melee snares. The only issue is that this is a bullshit hybrid of a melee snare and root. If we are gonna have melee snares on the scout, that can be reapplied, then they shouldn't be 99% for X amount of time with no immunity.

If they want the root, give it an immunity.

Pretty simple logic here, for those that aren't touched in the head.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:01 PM by Dariussdars

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:59 PM
Idk why anybody would have any type of back and forth with DInoTriz.

The root/snare whatever the fuck you want to call it, lasts 9 secs of pure stop you in your tracks before you can slowly move again if the snare isn't broken before hand... and can be reapplied indefinitely.

I'm all for melee snares. The only issue is that this is a bullshit hybrid of a melee snare and root. If we are gonna have melee snares on the scout, that can be reapplied, then they shouldn't be 99% for X amount of time with no immunity.

If they want the root, give it an immunity.

Pretty simple logic here, for those that aren't touched in the head.

Stop is a useless ability, so you'd think Dino would have no issue with it being adjusted.

Yet here he is in full deflection mode, weird.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:05 PM by thirian24

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:01 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 9:59 PM
Idk why anybody would have any type of back and forth with DInoTriz.

The root/snare whatever the fuck you want to call it, lasts 9 secs of pure stop you in your tracks before you can slowly move again if the snare isn't broken before hand... and can be reapplied indefinitely.

I'm all for melee snares. The only issue is that this is a bullshit hybrid of a melee snare and root. If we are gonna have melee snares on the scout, that can be reapplied, then they shouldn't be 99% for X amount of time with no immunity.

If they want the root, give it an immunity.

Pretty simple logic here, for those that aren't touched in the head.

Stop is a useless ability, so you'd think Dino would have no issue with it being adjusted.

Yet here he is in full deflection mode, weird.

Idk why we cant look up peoples posting history anymore, but if you could, you can clearly see that the guy has never played this game before. Im not real sure why he is weighing in on combat mechanics.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:16 PM by DinoTriz

You guys just looked up Stop on the Charplan and said "OMG SO OP! I'm gonna complain about this ability that I've never used on the forums!"

I've never claimed to be great at this game, but I have 10 times more experience with this particular ability than you guys.

You saw it on Charplan? Cool.

You saw it on YouTube? Great.

Some Scout totally pushed your stool in ONE TIME? Feel for ya.

Until you actually use the ability you have absolutely no idea how ineffective it actually is.

Here's a clue...if it's sooo OP, then why is that Scout even bothering to use terrain? He can just endlessly use Stop as much as he wants, right?

Level a Scout or STFU. Wipe your tears, you babies.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:33 PM by ughsmash

Yeah when you are debating a person that doesn't know what a fact is, it even feels bad to be right.

His argument is basically: All you have to support your argument is facts and video evidence...

Then proceeds to make pointless comments based off of his imagination.

Can't understand how powerful a Scout is because I don't currently have one at 50... on this server. Though I have had many Scouts and have all other stealthers max and above rr5 currently. It is like making an argument that I don't know what a ham sandwich tastes like because I'm not a ham sandwich.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:42 PM by DinoTriz

Yes, you don't have a Scout on this server. The server that has Stop on it.

I'm the one with video evidence btw.

You still think the ability roots you for 14 seconds. Lol

Get rid of Stop and give Scouts Garrote. That's so much better. Better GR, actually has +Hit, and only costs 15 Endo.

Stop crying losers. Even with Stop Scouts are incredibly weak.

I don't even play on Alb anymore and I don't care about Stop. The only classes that are weak to it are weak to archery already in general.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:45 PM by ughsmash

DinoTriz wrote: Yes, you don't have a Scout on this server. The server that has Stop on it.

I'm the one with video evidence btw.

You still think the ability roots you for 14 seconds. Lol

Get rid of Stop and give Scouts Garrote. That's so much better. Better GR, actually has +Hit, and only costs 15 Endo.

Stop crying losers. Even with Stop Scouts are incredibly weak.

I don't even play on Alb anymore and I don't care about Stop. The only classes that are weak to it are weak to archery already in general.

I actually Literally told you I don't think the root lasts 14 seconds, which doesn't even matter by the way.

Also why are you even commenting on this post if you don't care and don't understand how the game works? Look at your posts dude. Seriously. You ask about the BASICS of how this game works. There is no way you understand balance.

The video you showed that you think is evidence literally shows a Scout can be viable just using Stop. It is a counter to your point. How do you not get this? It is like you have a super power that allows you to never see the truth or get a brain freeze.

Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:52 PM by DinoTriz

Cool, so Stop is so powerful that all Alb groups have replaced Armsmen with Scouts as peeler? Is that the current meta now? Lol

The video is clearly showing a niche moment. A Scout could probably peel better without using Stop, since it's so endo hungry.

His endo was below 20 almost the entire video. He probably used Stop once and was forced to Numb everyone else.

Leet peels lol

Lemme know when Scouts start taking over the world. I won't hold my breath.

Thu 1 Oct 2020 12:52 AM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:52 PM
Cool, so Stop is so powerful that all Alb groups have replaced Armsmen with Scouts as peeler? Is that the current meta now? Lol

The video is clearly showing a niche moment. A Scout could probably peel better without using Stop, since it's so endo hungry.

His endo was below 20 almost the entire video. He probably used Stop once and was forced to Numb everyone else.

Leet peels lol

Lemme know when Scouts start taking over the world. I won't hold my breath.

Why exactly are you so vehemently defending this ability, considering how much it sucks?

Thu 1 Oct 2020 1:28 AM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Thu 1 Oct 2020 12:52 AM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 30 Sep 2020 10:52 PM
Cool, so Stop is so powerful that all Alb groups have replaced Armsmen with Scouts as peeler? Is that the current meta now? Lol

The video is clearly showing a niche moment. A Scout could probably peel better without using Stop, since it's so endo hungry.

His endo was below 20 almost the entire video. He probably used Stop once and was forced to Numb everyone else.

Leet peels lol

Lemme know when Scouts start taking over the world. I won't hold my breath.

Why exactly are you so vehemently defending this ability, considering how much it sucks?

Because I was noticing so much misinformation on this thread it bothered me so I had to say something.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 12:28 AM by Horus

There are most Scouts online now at the moment than Rangers. Curious because how much Scouts supposedly suck and Rangers are supposedly OPed

Fri 2 Oct 2020 1:10 AM by gotwqqd

Horus wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 12:28 AM
There are most Scouts online now at the moment than Rangers. Curious because how much Scouts supposedly suck and Rangers are supposedly OPed

Realm jumpers following the relics

Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:53 AM by Kikicorky96

I am playing a scout on a regular basis, and definitely use the Stop on a super regular basis.
What I don't understand is why some of you guys push for this style being OP when most of the time, the Stop will be used to GTFO from a fight because you inadvertently got caught at melee range.
Of course, it can be used to patiently kill some tank class on the long run (and I did it myself), but yet, it would mean that that specific class decided to keep fighting instead of running away, when as a scout, it's a choice we have to make most of the time.

When I think about most of my melee fights, either stop will be useless or will just help me to escape, which can obviously be frustrating for the enemy but can't make that style "overpowered" since it won't be a decisive factor in actually killing the target: The stop duration doesn't actually last long enough to get to a range providing a decisive advantage on a fight. Most of the time, you will get interrupted either before or after your first shot (250 hp or so) and will have to go melee again to try reuse stop, which means taking even more damages or being snared.

And honestly, this is just theory crafting... The reality is that once in melee, if purge is not up a scout will end up being pinned down by most tank classes and forced to commit at melee range, where everyone knows what's the outcome.
Well at least most of my fights look the same, and my stop must be coupled to purge to be really effective (in running away from the fight).
And the classes that are "weak" to the stop (casters, archers, heavy tanks) can always interrupt or run away very easily.

From my point of view, and being regularly owned by melee class, especially assassins (who seemingly can easily counter the stop) I really feel like all that whining is just about not to be able to easily kill a scout because they have an efficient GTFO ability.
(Lol at the guy who keeps providing a link to a super situationnal use of the stop which cannot happen in 99% of melee encounters)

So, while I understand the frustration of being chain rooted and not being able to easily kill an archer, I am pretty sure that removing that stop style would make the scout a way too easy target for any melee class.
So, appart from the crying, what are the real suggestions to make sure a scout keeps a way to even the odds in melee fights if stops is to be removed?

Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:04 PM by finyan

No Problem for me. Scout is a easy Target for Melee as long it comes in range with enough HP. So what?
Remove that Stop

Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:34 PM by ughsmash

Kikicorky96 wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 11:53 AM
I am playing a scout on a regular basis, and definitely use the Stop on a super regular basis.
What I don't understand is why some of you guys push for this style being OP when most of the time, the Stop will be used to GTFO from a fight because you inadvertently got caught at melee range.
Of course, it can be used to patiently kill some tank class on the long run (and I did it myself), but yet, it would mean that that specific class decided to keep fighting instead of running away, when as a scout, it's a choice we have to make most of the time.

When I think about most of my melee fights, either stop will be useless or will just help me to escape, which can obviously be frustrating for the enemy but can't make that style "overpowered" since it won't be a decisive factor in actually killing the target: The stop duration doesn't actually last long enough to get to a range providing a decisive advantage on a fight. Most of the time, you will get interrupted either before or after your first shot (250 hp or so) and will have to go melee again to try reuse stop, which means taking even more damages or being snared.

And honestly, this is just theory crafting... The reality is that once in melee, if purge is not up a scout will end up being pinned down by most tank classes and forced to commit at melee range, where everyone knows what's the outcome.
Well at least most of my fights look the same, and my stop must be coupled to purge to be really effective (in running away from the fight).
And the classes that are "weak" to the stop (casters, archers, heavy tanks) can always interrupt or run away very easily.

From my point of view, and being regularly owned by melee class, especially assassins (who seemingly can easily counter the stop) I really feel like all that whining is just about not to be able to easily kill a scout because they have an efficient GTFO ability.
(Lol at the guy who keeps providing a link to a super situationnal use of the stop which cannot happen in 99% of melee encounters)

So, while I understand the frustration of being chain rooted and not being able to easily kill an archer, I am pretty sure that removing that stop style would make the scout a way too easy target for any melee class.
So, appart from the crying, what are the real suggestions to make sure a scout keeps a way to even the odds in melee fights if stops is to be removed?

Nobody is saying they want Scouts to be easy to kill. I thank you for somewhat seeing where people are coming from in regards to the pain it is to fight a Scout.

It is no fun for anyone to sit in CC, but the entire game play of a Scout revolves around repeatedly CC'ing people.

Either they need to add an immunity timer, so Stop can be in line with other escapes, or come up with something different. Heck even if they have to add an immunity timer and give them something else to buff them a bit I'm cool. I have watched Scouts use this ability more than 3 times on a person in a single fight and it is like... WTF this is not balanced.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 3:32 PM by DinoTriz

ughsmash wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:34 PM
Nobody is saying they want Scouts to be easy to kill. I thank you for somewhat seeing where people are coming from in regards to the pain it is to fight a Scout.

It is no fun for anyone to sit in CC, but the entire game play of a Scout revolves around repeatedly CC'ing people.

Either they need to add an immunity timer, so Stop can be in line with other escapes, or come up with something different. Heck even if they have to add an immunity timer and give them something else to buff them a bit I'm cool. I have watched Scouts use this ability more than 3 times on a person in a single fight and it is like... WTF this is not balanced.

The video that you used to show an example of abuse doesn't highlight it. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RF3nPKE_E

Possibly the most egregious use of the ability is in the very first fight.

You can see he targets what appears to be a Hero (someone susceptible to kiting in general). The first style he uses is Slam, but she purges. She hits him once and he's down to 57% Health. Then he tries to use Stop 3 or 4 times (because the style has zero +hit) and finally gets it to land. Then he pops a Health pot.

Why the Hero didn't Engage or pop Moose Mode is beyond me. Total failure on her part. Then by the grace of god he gets Stop to land on the first try and he runs past her without getting hit.

She again, fails to use Engage or Moose.

That fight isn't the typical scenario. In a normal situation, that Hero would have Engaged and the Scout would be trying to spam Stop, missing 2 or 3 times and then when it finally lands the Scout is at 10% health and the Hero is close enough to smack him a few times to kill him.

It's way worse when you're dealing with assassins (probably the most common opponent) as they spam Garrote and have snare poisons. There's just no way to do that with them.

Fri 2 Oct 2020 4:09 PM by Kwall0311

Over half of these fights are people that would be farmed by anyone. I see shield classes not using engage, and bow classes charging a scout over a lip of terrain which they could easily back off and use to their advantage if the scout wanted to finish off the kill. Assassins complaining but then again not using cripple or garrote. 90% of these people have the abilities to counter this and still complain. As someone who uses this ability, which can be strong at times , can really tell the difference in good vs bad players.

I also didnt see one DQ debuff charge, which absolutely demolishes the scouts DPS

Fri 2 Oct 2020 5:14 PM by ughsmash

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 4:09 PM
Over half of these fights are people that would be farmed by anyone. I see shield classes not using engage, and bow classes charging a scout over a lip of terrain which they could easily back off and use to their advantage if the scout wanted to finish off the kill. Assassins complaining but then again not using cripple or garrote. 90% of these people have the abilities to counter this and still complain. As someone who uses this ability, which can be strong at times , can really tell the difference in good vs bad players.

I also didnt see one DQ debuff charge, which absolutely demolishes the scouts DPS

I agree with you in regards to the player skill. I am still highlighting that this can and is happening.

Again I am not suggesting an obliteration of the style. If anything I would like an immunity timer and another buff in this styles place. I get with only Slam Scouts are food for other stealthers, but with this ability as is Scouts have too much control over an engagement.

Sat 3 Oct 2020 4:09 PM by protege

IMO... Keep Stop and have an LoS check before archers can load a shot.

Or increase the timer to 15 seconds w/ a 1min immunity.

Or 86 the style.

Sat 3 Oct 2020 4:20 PM by MeatBicycle

Put the style into a melee spec line so that they at least have to decide whether they wan't to have full bow dmg or more utility with shield+meleespec. At the moment melee spec is just a waste of points for them and that is plain stupid balance.

Sat 3 Oct 2020 5:22 PM by thirian24

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 3:32 PM
ughsmash wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:34 PM
Nobody is saying they want Scouts to be easy to kill. I thank you for somewhat seeing where people are coming from in regards to the pain it is to fight a Scout.

It is no fun for anyone to sit in CC, but the entire game play of a Scout revolves around repeatedly CC'ing people.

Either they need to add an immunity timer, so Stop can be in line with other escapes, or come up with something different. Heck even if they have to add an immunity timer and give them something else to buff them a bit I'm cool. I have watched Scouts use this ability more than 3 times on a person in a single fight and it is like... WTF this is not balanced.

The video that you used to show an example of abuse doesn't highlight it. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RF3nPKE_E

Possibly the most egregious use of the ability is in the very first fight.

You can see he targets what appears to be a Hero (someone susceptible to kiting in general). The first style he uses is Slam, but she purges. She hits him once and he's down to 57% Health. Then he tries to use Stop 3 or 4 times (because the style has zero +hit) and finally gets it to land. Then he pops a Health pot.

Why the Hero didn't Engage or pop Moose Mode is beyond me. Total failure on her part. Then by the grace of god he gets Stop to land on the first try and he runs past her without getting hit.

She again, fails to use Engage or Moose.

That fight isn't the typical scenario. In a normal situation, that Hero would have Engaged and the Scout would be trying to spam Stop, missing 2 or 3 times and then when it finally lands the Scout is at 10% health and the Hero is close enough to smack him a few times to kill him.

It's way worse when you're dealing with assassins (probably the most common opponent) as they spam Garrote and have snare poisons. There's just no way to do that with them.

The person that you're referring to in this fight is a Champion(this is easily seen in the video once Alita used her DD and ranged snare), which is why they didn't use Moose. Weird, I know.
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Alita

Keep commenting on game mechanics though, this is getting good.

Sat 3 Oct 2020 9:37 PM by Cadebrennus

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Oct 2020 5:22 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 3:32 PM
ughsmash wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:34 PM
Nobody is saying they want Scouts to be easy to kill. I thank you for somewhat seeing where people are coming from in regards to the pain it is to fight a Scout.

It is no fun for anyone to sit in CC, but the entire game play of a Scout revolves around repeatedly CC'ing people.

Either they need to add an immunity timer, so Stop can be in line with other escapes, or come up with something different. Heck even if they have to add an immunity timer and give them something else to buff them a bit I'm cool. I have watched Scouts use this ability more than 3 times on a person in a single fight and it is like... WTF this is not balanced.

The video that you used to show an example of abuse doesn't highlight it. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RF3nPKE_E

Possibly the most egregious use of the ability is in the very first fight.

You can see he targets what appears to be a Hero (someone susceptible to kiting in general). The first style he uses is Slam, but she purges. She hits him once and he's down to 57% Health. Then he tries to use Stop 3 or 4 times (because the style has zero +hit) and finally gets it to land. Then he pops a Health pot.

Why the Hero didn't Engage or pop Moose Mode is beyond me. Total failure on her part. Then by the grace of god he gets Stop to land on the first try and he runs past her without getting hit.

She again, fails to use Engage or Moose.

That fight isn't the typical scenario. In a normal situation, that Hero would have Engaged and the Scout would be trying to spam Stop, missing 2 or 3 times and then when it finally lands the Scout is at 10% health and the Hero is close enough to smack him a few times to kill him.

It's way worse when you're dealing with assassins (probably the most common opponent) as they spam Garrote and have snare poisons. There's just no way to do that with them.

The person that you're referring to in this fight is a Champion(this is easily seen in the video once Alita used her DD and ranged snare), which is why they didn't use Moose. Weird, I know.
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Alita

Keep commenting on game mechanics though, this is getting good.

Last I checked Champions can spec Shield and get Engage

Sat 3 Oct 2020 10:10 PM by thirian24

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Oct 2020 9:37 PM
thirian24 wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Oct 2020 5:22 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 3:32 PM
ughsmash wrote: ↑
Fri 2 Oct 2020 2:34 PM
Nobody is saying they want Scouts to be easy to kill. I thank you for somewhat seeing where people are coming from in regards to the pain it is to fight a Scout.

It is no fun for anyone to sit in CC, but the entire game play of a Scout revolves around repeatedly CC'ing people.

Either they need to add an immunity timer, so Stop can be in line with other escapes, or come up with something different. Heck even if they have to add an immunity timer and give them something else to buff them a bit I'm cool. I have watched Scouts use this ability more than 3 times on a person in a single fight and it is like... WTF this is not balanced.

The video that you used to show an example of abuse doesn't highlight it. Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RF3nPKE_E

Possibly the most egregious use of the ability is in the very first fight.

You can see he targets what appears to be a Hero (someone susceptible to kiting in general). The first style he uses is Slam, but she purges. She hits him once and he's down to 57% Health. Then he tries to use Stop 3 or 4 times (because the style has zero +hit) and finally gets it to land. Then he pops a Health pot.

Why the Hero didn't Engage or pop Moose Mode is beyond me. Total failure on her part. Then by the grace of god he gets Stop to land on the first try and he runs past her without getting hit.

She again, fails to use Engage or Moose.

That fight isn't the typical scenario. In a normal situation, that Hero would have Engaged and the Scout would be trying to spam Stop, missing 2 or 3 times and then when it finally lands the Scout is at 10% health and the Hero is close enough to smack him a few times to kill him.

It's way worse when you're dealing with assassins (probably the most common opponent) as they spam Garrote and have snare poisons. There's just no way to do that with them.

The person that you're referring to in this fight is a Champion(this is easily seen in the video once Alita used her DD and ranged snare), which is why they didn't use Moose. Weird, I know.
https://herald.playphoenix.online/c/Alita

Keep commenting on game mechanics though, this is getting good.

Last I checked Champions can spec Shield and get Engagw

Reading is hard, I know. But no where did I say he couldn't engage.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 10:36 AM by DinoTriz

thirian24 wrote: ↑
Sat 3 Oct 2020 10:10 PM
Reading is hard, I know. But no where did I say he couldn't engage.

Lol @ you criticizing someone for reading when my comment says "appears to be a hero".

My point still stands. Didn't Engage. Bad player.

Also, the fact that she's a Champ is even worse. She didn't snare him or debuff him. A Champ that played like a Hero.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 3:43 PM by Parole

Let this garbage thread die already.

Snare is powerful, mostly adds to survivability of scout. This is not what is killing you though. It is your playstyle.

It is not game changing or broken.

Move along people.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:01 PM by Spiegal

Parole wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 3:43 PM
Let this garbage thread die already.

Snare is powerful, mostly adds to survivability of scout. This is not what is killing you though. It is your playstyle.

It is not game changing or broken.

Move along people.

I disagree, it's broken as its current state. It's not a snare it's a "root" with no immunity.
Continue debating. Can midgard mages have this ability ?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:05 PM by DinoTriz

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:01 PM
It's not a snare it's a "root" with no immunity.

More misinformation...

See, this is what makes me comment on here.

Perhaps it's a troll - if so, I tip my cheeto dusted fedora to you, sir. You got me.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:22 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:05 PM
Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:01 PM
It's not a snare it's a "root" with no immunity.

More misinformation...

See, this is what makes me comment on here.

Perhaps it's a troll - if so, I tip my cheeto dusted fedora to you, sir. You got me.

Yeah, how dare someone call a 99% snare a root, since that is essentially what it does.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:28 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:22 PM
Yeah, how dare someone call a 99% snare a root, since that is essentially what it does.

It snares. It does not root.

A root does not allow someone to run at 60% after 2 seconds it gets applied.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:29 PM by Spiegal

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 6:05 PM
More misinformation...
See, this is what makes me comment on here.
Perhaps it's a troll - if so, I tip my cheeto dusted fedora to you, sir. You got me.

Misinformation? Even the Dev called it a root

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:32 PM by DinoTriz

If you're basing your opinion off what the Charplan says, then you have proven my point.

You're ignorant.

Level up a Scout and use the ability and let me know how long it "roots" someone.

It isn't 14 seconds, like the Charplan says.

I wish I saw all the faces of the recent FOTM Scouts when they finally got to 45 Shield and they realized that lol

"Dammit!! I leveled a Scout for this?! I thought it was a 14 second root??"

ROFL

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:38 PM by Kwall0311

What does it matter if its a snare or a root lmao. Theres far to much discussion on its classification. Either way its working as designed,

December 2019 --- "A new scout only anytime shield style that will cost about 30% (now 40%) endurance and apply a melee root. Normal slow behavior applies: after 7 seconds (half the slow duration) the target will regain their movement speed over the remaining duration (after 10.5 seconds the target will be back at 50%), as this is a normal melee snare it won't apply immunity.

Written from the creator himself. Its a unique style with a unique effect. "melee root" as stated above by gruenes_schaf

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:39 PM by Delsaer

Casted root begins to fade and allow slow movement as well...

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:45 PM by DinoTriz

Kwall0311 wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:38 PM
What does it matter if its a snare or a root lmao. Theres far to much discussion on its classification. Either way its working as designed,

December 2019 --- "A new scout only anytime shield style that will cost about 30% (now 40%) endurance and apply a melee root. Normal slow behavior applies: after 7 seconds (half the slow duration) the target will regain their movement speed over the remaining duration (after 10.5 seconds the target will be back at 50%), as this is a normal melee snare it won't apply immunity.

Written from the creator himself.

Because there's a ton of people who think it's a straight up 14 second root.

Personally, I think the snare should be lower in strength but also lower the endo cost and add some +Hit to it.

It would be way more powerful and people would complain less because it looks like a harmless melee snare.

Right now it just attracts zombies who saw it on the Charplan and have never encountered the ability in any way.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:49 PM by Dariussdars

Parole wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 3:43 PM
Let this garbage thread die already.

Snare is powerful, mostly adds to survivability of scout. This is not what is killing you though. It is your playstyle.

It is not game changing or broken.

Move along people.

So every scout uses Stop as an offensive tool, but it isn't what is killing players it is used on? Scouts aren't using it to escape, they are using it for easy kills.

Shocked a scout is trying to deflect how strong this ability is.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:51 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:28 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:22 PM
Yeah, how dare someone call a 99% snare a root, since that is essentially what it does.

It snares. It does not root.

A root does not allow someone to run at 60% after 2 seconds it gets applied.

Stop doesn't allow anyone to run at 60% 2 seconds after it is applied either.

Melee snares/roots/stuns aren't effected by determination, or resists.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:51 PM by Spiegal

You know by using quotation mark on the word Root, I would have thought that it was obvious what I was implying.
Why are you so toxic ?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:52 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:51 PM
Stop doesn't allow anyone to run at 60% 2 seconds after it is applied either.

Melee snares/roots/stuns aren't effected by determination, or resists.

Sorry, it's like 5 - 7 seconds. Not 2. HUGE difference.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:53 PM by DinoTriz

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:51 PM
Why are you so toxic ?

Because I thought Stop was powerful but my parents are STILL divorced

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:54 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:52 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:51 PM
Stop doesn't allow anyone to run at 60% 2 seconds after it is applied either.

Melee snares/roots/stuns aren't effected by determination, or resists.

Sorry, it's like 5 - 7 seconds. Not 2. HUGE difference.

How much range do you think the Scout can get in 5-7 seconds?

7 seconds is literally almost 4x the duration of your 2 second claim. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Math not your strong point?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:59 PM by Spiegal

Delsaer wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:39 PM
Casted root begins to fade and allow slow movement as well...

Exactly !! That's why people get confuse.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:00 PM by Dariussdars

Should make a poll and ask Scouts if they spec 45 shield or not.

Don't think all of these Stop defenders would like the result.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:01 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:54 PM
How much range do you think the Scout can get in 5-7 seconds?

7 seconds is literally almost 4x the duration of your 2 second claim. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Math not your strong point?

Not as much as you'd like to think.

Put it this way: a Caster's Root at LEVEL 3 lasts for 9 seconds.

Let's do some Math: That is 9 seconds - 7 seconds = 2 seconds MORE!

Level 3 Runemasters should be kiting the world right now! They're more effective than Scouts with Stop! WOAH!

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:02 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:00 PM
Should make a poll and ask Scouts if they spec 45 shield or not.

Don't think all of these Stop defenders would like the result.

Just because something would be popular does not mean it would be right.

People are morons. It's any wonder why we let them vote.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM by Spiegal

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:01 PM
Not as much as you'd like to think.

Put it this way: a Caster's Root at LEVEL 3 lasts for 9 seconds.

Let's do some Math: That is 9 seconds - 7 seconds = 2 seconds MORE!

Level 3 Runemasters should be kiting the world right now! They're more effective than Scouts with Stop! WOAH!

Nah bro, it gives immunity

Try something else

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:01 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 7:54 PM
How much range do you think the Scout can get in 5-7 seconds?

7 seconds is literally almost 4x the duration of your 2 second claim. Yeah, that's a huge difference.

Math not your strong point?

Not as much as you'd like to think.

Put it this way: a Caster's Root at LEVEL 3 lasts for 9 seconds.

Let's do some Math: That is 9 seconds - 7 seconds = 2 seconds MORE!

Level 3 Runemasters should be kiting the world right now! They're more effective than Scouts with Stop! WOAH!

So you seriously think a lvl 3 spell lands as often as a level 45 style?

Does that root have an immunity timer on it? Yes/No?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:07 PM by Dariussdars

So something lasting 4 x the duration of your claim isn't a huge difference.

Yeah, can't take anything serious you have to say after that explanation.

Why would any shield user bother using slam instead of numb?

Slam only lasts 4x as long, so why even bother using it?

Yeah, that's your logic in a nutshell.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:08 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM
So you seriously think a lvl 3 spell lands as often as a level 45 style?

Does that root have an immunity timer on it? Yes/No?

Considering the fact that Stop has zero +Hit, yeah I'd rather trust a level 3 spell to land on someone.

Caster can just mez afterward or use it's other 865 different forms of CC it has.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:11 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:07 PM
So something lasting 4 x the duration of your claim isn't a huge difference.

Yeah, can't take anything serious you have to say after that explanation.

Why would any shield user bother using slam instead of numb?

Slam only lasts 4x as long, so why even bother using it?

Yeah, that's your logic in a nutshell.

When you're trying to gain distance on someone and load an arrow (which takes like 3-4 seconds), there's very little difference between 2 and 7 seconds.

They both suck.

And 2 x 4 = 8, smart guy.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:12 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:08 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM
So you seriously think a lvl 3 spell lands as often as a level 45 style?

Does that root have an immunity timer on it? Yes/No?

Considering the fact that Stop has zero +Hit, yeah I'd rather trust a level 3 spell to land on someone.

Caster can just mez afterward or use it's other 865 different forms of CC it has.

So now every Mid caster has mez and 865 different forms of CC?

That's the hill you are going to make your final stand on?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:13 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:11 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:07 PM
So something lasting 4 x the duration of your claim isn't a huge difference.

Yeah, can't take anything serious you have to say after that explanation.

Why would any shield user bother using slam instead of numb?

Slam only lasts 4x as long, so why even bother using it?

Yeah, that's your logic in a nutshell.

When you're trying to gain distance on someone and load an arrow (which takes like 3-4 seconds), there's very little difference between 2 and 7 seconds.

They both suck.

And 2 x 4 = 8, smart guy.

Yeah, 8 is a huge difference between 7, right?

7 seconds longer is almost 4 x the duration.

You need to stop before you make yourself look even worse.

"Duuuur, a lvl 3 root is just as effective as a lvl 45 style!"

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:14 PM by DinoTriz

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM
Nah bro, it gives immunity
Try something else

Consider the fact that Stop costs 45 Endo as a defacto immunity timer.

Between using Stop, sprinting away, and loading your bow you don't have enough endo to fart against the wind.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:15 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:14 PM
Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:05 PM
Nah bro, it gives immunity
Try something else

Consider the fact that Stop costs 45 Endo as a defacto immunity timer.

Between using Stop, sprinting away, and loading your bow you don't have enough endo to fart against the wind.

Yeah, because no Scouts use end pots and invig pots, right?

Do you even play this game?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:16 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:13 PM
"Duuuur, a lvl 3 root is just as effective as a lvl 45 style!"

You guys are complaining about the root.

I'm just stating the fact that a level 3 RM spell roots for longer.

Let that sink in.

You're so bad at the game that you're complaining about like a level 2 root.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:17 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:15 PM
Yeah, because no Scouts use end pots and invig pots, right?

Do you even play this game?

So a Scout is required to use extra potions in order to win against people?

Sounds like Scout needs to be buffed, not nerfed.

Next!

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:18 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:16 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:13 PM
"Duuuur, a lvl 3 root is just as effective as a lvl 45 style!"

You guys are complaining about the root.

I'm just stating that a level 3 RM spell roots for longer.

Let that sink in.

You're so bad at the game that you're complaining about like a level 2 root.

Is that root spell effected by resists?

Yes/No?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:17 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:15 PM
Yeah, because no Scouts use end pots and invig pots, right?

Do you even play this game?

So a Scout is required to use extra potions in order to win against people?

Sounds like Scout needs to be buffed, not nerfed.

Next!

Yeah, it's not like every single other class out in the frontier also uses those same two potions.

You debate like a 5 year old.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:18 PM
Is that root spell effected by resists?

Yes/No?

Do you think Stop isn't effected by resists? Oh, and on top of that it doesn't have any +Hit and it costs 45 Endo.

Do casters have any spells that uses HALF of their Power?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:21 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM
Yeah, it's not like every single other class out in the frontier also uses those same two potions.

You debate like a 5 year old.

Maybe if you're dueling a Paladin for 8 hours. Otherwise, you can do just fine without it.

But I guess Scout is REQUIRED to use them

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:22 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:18 PM
Is that root spell effected by resists?

Yes/No?

Do you think Stop isn't effected by resists? Oh, and on top of that it doesn't have any +Hit and it costs 45 Endo.

Do casters have any spells that uses HALF of their Power?

Which resist effects a melee snare genius?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:23 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:21 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM
Yeah, it's not like every single other class out in the frontier also uses those same two potions.

You debate like a 5 year old.

Maybe if you're dueling a Paladin for 8 hours. Otherwise, you can do just fine without it.

But I guess Scout is REQUIRED to use them

So now a Scout is required to use those two pots?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:23 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:22 PM
Which resist effects a melee snare genius?

Crush resistance exists, ya know

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:24 PM by Dariussdars

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:22 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:19 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:18 PM
Is that root spell effected by resists?

Yes/No?

Do you think Stop isn't effected by resists? Oh, and on top of that it doesn't have any +Hit and it costs 45 Endo.

Do casters have any spells that uses HALF of their Power?

Which resist effects a melee snare genius? Which resist effects Slam?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:24 PM by Dariussdars

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:23 PM
Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:22 PM
Which resist effects a melee snare genius?

Crush resistance exists, ya know

Crush resist effects the DAMAGE, not the duration.

Once again, do you even play this game?

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:25 PM by Dariussdars

Actually, I'm done debating a topic with someone with the mentality of a 5 year old.

Good luck with your defense.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:28 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:24 PM
Crush resist effects the DAMAGE, not the duration.

Once again, do you even play this game?

Does that not effect Stop?

I win.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:29 PM by DinoTriz

Dariussdars wrote: ↑
Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:25 PM
Actually, I'm done debating a topic with someone with the mentality of a 5 year old.

Good luck with your defense.

*holds up title belt*

THA CHAMP IS HERE!

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:44 PM by Spiegal

All you proved was your ability to flood message boards.
You are the champion indeed

Mon 5 Oct 2020 8:49 PM by DinoTriz

Flooded with straight facts.

Ignorance dies when I come around *flex*

Mon 5 Oct 2020 9:02 PM by thirian24

Lol. Yall got baited by a clown. Hopefully you've learned not to engage with this dude anymore.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 9:05 PM by DinoTriz

Shouldn't you be playing right now? Or at least taking your weekly shower?

You live in the Frontier.

When was the last time you called your mom?

I see that pizza stain.

Mon 5 Oct 2020 11:32 PM by ughsmash

I had to stop engaging with DinoTriz. It is a point where everything he says is incorrect, but he doesn't know it. So even being correct against him will give you an aneurysm. The dude just pets his 10 cats and plays the Phoenix forums. Guarantee the dude is bad. Look at his other posts:
"WHat is better a Blademaster or a Berserker?"
"Why do people say a VW takes a lot of skill to play?"

Dude is a bonehead. If you gave him a coloring book with blank pages he would color outside the lines and somehow get paint on his face in the process.

Tue 6 Oct 2020 12:02 AM by

Razilly

This post has been locked due to repeated personal insults.