Savage stoicism - Phoenix Freeshard

Curious if this is going to stay for live? Also curious why this was given when they were not a Det class originally?

Between evade 5 / 360 evade / evade and parry buffs seems like a smidge much to give them the extra 25% cc duration which was how you could contain them.

Also makes me wonder why anyone would roll zerker aside from DW reduction and vendo which could be argued against savage potential burst.

Curious peoples thoughts!!

Ps: or in turn why did they and not reaver or VW receive the same upgrade ?

Sun 7 Oct 2018 5:17 AM by Falken

savages got a dmg buff? If you mean the DW nerf, they aren't considered a DW class as far as I know.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:10 PM by

gruenesschaf

All 1.65 det chars got stoicism, savage had det.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 11:18 PM by Zintair

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:10 PM
All 1.65 det chars got stoicism, savage had det.

Ah guess I was mistaken there. Thanks for clarification I could have sworn they didn't get Det. They are way overtuned with this tho.

Sun 7 Oct 2018 11:42 PM by Zintair

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Sun 7 Oct 2018 2:10 PM
All 1.65 det chars got stoicism, savage had det.

Still this seems like wayyyy too much. Every class is getting looked at, this class has ALOT of tool for survivability and VERY SMALL penalty and can do soooo much there is no reason for them to get Stoicism.

Their growth rates are all 1.2-1.4+/ Evade 5 / 360 Evade / Det 9 /Stocism / triple and quad hits

It's way over the top. Something needs to be sacrificed. Increase the dmg taken from buffs, drop stoicism. Something because they just have no downside.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 1:13 AM by Thoop

I agree 100%, in fact I say let's go way back and remove Savages, Reavers, and VWs from the game.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 2:40 AM by Zintair

Thoop wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 1:13 AM
I agree 100%, in fact I say let's go way back and remove Savages, Reavers, and VWs from the game.

Very productive lol. You know they are over the top. Deflect all you want lol

Mon 8 Oct 2018 4:30 AM by Falken

Zintair wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 2:40 AM
Thoop wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 1:13 AM
I agree 100%, in fact I say let's go way back and remove Savages, Reavers, and VWs from the game.

Very productive lol. You know they are over the top. Deflect all you want lol

Thoop is an old man ranger, he don't care

What "upgrade" are you referencing?

Zerker is better consistent unguardable damage compared to savage (which just got worse looking due to DW not being as effective). A single shield tank with guard up can shut down any kind of damage to savages target.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 5:57 AM by Thoop

I wasn't deflecting, it truly sounds like the existence of Savages here is diminishing the value of zerkers.

And Falken is right, my main is a Ranger, so I don't really care lol

Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:56 AM by Falken

Yeah, I personally don't see the point in a zerker to much over a savage. That also has to do with the fact that their damage doesn't compensate for the lack of utility compared to other light tanks and the ease with which they can be focused down. Sure vendo is great, but against a good team it just gives them a clear and easy focus target when used before you are CC immune, or even if you are no defense is no bueno. Risk is not worth the reward, especially when you consider that burst and RNG damage spiking is more effective at getting kills than consistent slow damage, unless you play 5 supports/3 tanks which just bore you to death with no kill targets.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 11:25 AM by jelzinga_EU

Falken wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:56 AM
Yeah, I personally don't see the point in a zerker to much over a savage. That also has to do with the fact that their damage doesn't compensate for the lack of utility compared to other light tanks and the ease with which they can be focused down. Sure vendo is great, but against a good team it just gives them a clear and easy focus target when used before you are CC immune, or even if you are no defense is no bueno. Risk is not worth the reward, especially when you consider that burst and RNG damage spiking is more effective at getting kills than consistent slow damage, unless you play 5 supports/3 tanks which just bore you to death with no kill targets.

You're correct, everyone going zerker over savage is silly. Yes, vendo is great damage potential but without charge (NF-version) you can be easily locked down. Zerks also count as true dualwielders (block/evade-reduction) but that already got nerfed to 25%. And that is the only things zerks have going for them. Savage brings backstun, sidestun, all styles have 1.1-1.4 Growthrate (except anytime, which is at 0.9 which is comparable to positionals/reactionaries for everyone else). Then add a higher level Advanced Evade and to top it off the Savagery-line adds 25% evade/parry, 25% DPS-buff, 39% Haste and if trained on 25% additional melee-resists.

Savages where insane in this era - I don't truly understand why they didn't get toned down for Phoenix.

Mon 8 Oct 2018 2:15 PM by Falken

jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 11:25 AM
Falken wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 6:56 AM
Yeah, I personally don't see the point in a zerker to much over a savage. That also has to do with the fact that their damage doesn't compensate for the lack of utility compared to other light tanks and the ease with which they can be focused down. Sure vendo is great, but against a good team it just gives them a clear and easy focus target when used before you are CC immune, or even if you are no defense is no bueno. Risk is not worth the reward, especially when you consider that burst and RNG damage spiking is more effective at getting kills than consistent slow damage, unless you play 5 supports/3 tanks which just bore you to death with no kill targets.

You're correct, everyone going zerker over savage is silly. Yes, vendo is great damage potential but without charge (NF-version) you can be easily locked down. Zerks also count as true dualwielders (block/evade-reduction) but that already got nerfed to 25%. And that is the only things zerks have going for them. Savage brings backstun, sidestun, all styles have 1.1-1.4 Growthrate (except anytime, which is at 0.9 which is comparable to positionals/reactionaries for everyone else). Then add a higher level Advanced Evade and to top it off the Savagery-line adds 25% evade/parry, 25% DPS-buff, 39% Haste and if trained on 25% additional melee-resists.

Savages where insane in this era - I don't truly understand why they didn't get toned down for Phoenix.

They are still doing class balancing during the i50 phase that is coming up starting on the 20th. Nothing is set in stone and for sure yet, all classes are open for changes coming up. If they are determined to be overtuned then they will get put in line, but as they are right now one shield tank basically shuts them down with no block penetration for guard. I have been 3 shot by a BM on my BD here, there is nothing that doesn't feel overtuned here

Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:34 PM by Zintair

yes thank you finally some solid discussion.

I think a much more fair fix is to heighten the risk reward of the savagery buffs.

I hit all my buffs ob the savage and i barely go below 84% (4%each buff) ... so for 14% health you can buff your evade parry haste etc etc to serious levels for 15 seconds and then RESUME them non stop without cooldown.

I was told (no idea if its true) that the buffs originally took 8% health. Seems like a good place to start to make them the risk reward class they are. Still may not be enough but its a start.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 5:54 AM by Falken

Zintair wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:34 PM
yes thank you finally some solid discussion.

I think a much more fair fix is to heighten the risk reward of the savagery buffs.

I hit all my buffs ob the savage and i barely go below 84% (4%each buff) ... so for 14% health you can buff your evade parry haste etc etc to serious levels for 15 seconds and then RESUME them non stop without cooldown.

I was told (no idea if its true) that the buffs originally took 8% health. Seems like a good place to start to make them the risk reward class they are. Still may not be enough but its a start.

7 buffs, 6 of which would be 4% and the last resist is likely 5% depends on spec ofc red 5% yellow 4%. The risk is that they are going to fall off in 15s or whenever you decide to refresh the duration and cause a good chunk of damage. As I played savage I didn't use the resists all the time, but it helped when a tank sat on my back. Of course you aren't using all of them at once, at least one so realistically 5 buffs which is 20% damage every 15 seconds, so equates to 1.33% health/second if you wanna break it down.... seems like a pretty healthy damage considering it all comes in one nice big spike that can't be avoided and most people aren't doing it every 15s, but likely before they fall off or if they are smart staggering them so as to not have a nice big burst.

Either way if it is as seen as not enough risk for the reward, then nerf the reward or up the risk.

At this point I feel like its people who plan to play alb or hib just crying that mids might have something that slightly overshadows what they have. Maybe if its true it will become more rampant and obvious during i50, if not then it's just conjecture.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 7:57 AM by Druth

What is this "savage" class? Is it on Alb?

If not, just nerf it please.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 9:13 PM by Zintair

Falken wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 5:54 AM
Zintair wrote: ↑
Mon 8 Oct 2018 8:34 PM
yes thank you finally some solid discussion.

I think a much more fair fix is to heighten the risk reward of the savagery buffs.

I hit all my buffs ob the savage and i barely go below 84% (4%each buff) ... so for 14% health you can buff your evade parry haste etc etc to serious levels for 15 seconds and then RESUME them non stop without cooldown.

I was told (no idea if its true) that the buffs originally took 8% health. Seems like a good place to start to make them the risk reward class they are. Still may not be enough but its a start.

7 buffs, 6 of which would be 4% and the last resist is likely 5% depends on spec ofc red 5% yellow 4%. The risk is that they are going to fall off in 15s or whenever you decide to refresh the duration and cause a good chunk of damage. As I played savage I didn't use the resists all the time, but it helped when a tank sat on my back. Of course you aren't using all of them at once, at least one so realistically 5 buffs which is 20% damage every 15 seconds, so equates to 1.33% health/second if you wanna break it down.... seems like a pretty healthy damage considering it all comes in one nice big spike that can't be avoided and most people aren't doing it every 15s, but likely before they fall off or if they are smart staggering them so as to not have a nice big burst.

Either way if it is as seen as not enough risk for the reward, then nerf the reward or up the risk.

At this point I feel like its people who plan to play alb or hib just crying that mids might have something that slightly overshadows what they have. Maybe if its true it will become more rampant and obvious during i50, if not then it's just conjecture.

It just doesn't seem like the damage to them is enough to warrant it. the 20% is if you pop everything. You don't really need to pop everything to really crush into targets aka Haste. You can use an evade style if you want to forgoe that health debuff. I'm still of the opinion that it's not a real trade off. And then you combine it with their crazy growths and high evade (which may be more powerful then it should be if the calc for wpnskill to evade reduction isnt correct) and chnace to trip or quad hit.

I'm not looking to nerf their current output i'm just of the opinion their needs to be a greater risk to their blatantly given reward.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 9:15 PM by Zintair

Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 7:57 AM
What is this "savage" class? Is it on Alb?

If not, just nerf it please.

What are you talking about? Minstrel, Theurg? Even the Necro.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 9:18 PM by Druth

Zintair wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 9:15 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 7:57 AM
What is this "savage" class? Is it on Alb?

If not, just nerf it please.

What are you talking about? Minstrel, Theurg? Even the Necro.

They are alb classes, so buff them please.

Tue 9 Oct 2018 10:47 PM by opossum12

Mid is the tank realm, should be logical for them to have best dps tanks.

Tone down savages but remove slam from mercs and BMs, see who’s op...

Tue 9 Oct 2018 11:14 PM by Falken

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 10:47 PM
Mid is the tank realm, should be logical for them to have best dps tanks.

Tone down savages but remove slam from mercs and BMs, see who’s op...

Great idea... I would be happy if light tanks had a 5 sec slam instead of the 9sec one, leave heavy tanks (warrior/hero/arms) with 9 sec slam so there is a clear reason to bring them. Let them use their positional stuns like everybody else.

Wed 10 Oct 2018 6:48 PM by Zintair

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Tue 9 Oct 2018 10:47 PM
Mid is the tank realm, should be logical for them to have best dps tanks.

Tone down savages but remove slam from mercs and BMs, see who’s op...

Not even remotely close to the same type of balancing. Savage don’t even need Slam cause they can kill a target in their 4 second backstun and have a 9 second two chainer.

Also this isn’t classic DAOC mid isnthe tank realm is a ridiculous statement. Their best setups are hybrid or caster lol. My point on this was if other classes are getting balanced I thought it was fair game for any class that is over performing.

Savage evade parry so much they could get their 2 chain off before I land a slam of unlucky on a merc. Shit even BM get evade 3 which is like 12-20% depending Target. Merc is only 8% evade with a measily extra 8% mitigation.

Besides I’d be fine if they stayed the same just rather their buffs hurt them a bit more to make the choice between savage or zerker an actual choice since charge is broke.

Fixing charge would also be fine but not sure what that would do to the bigger picture tbh.

Wed 10 Oct 2018 6:52 PM by Aincrad

Charge is not broken btw. It’s working exactly how it’s supposed to

Thu 11 Oct 2018 4:27 AM by depth

Making charge actually do something useful would be a nice change, if people cant get on board with its updated version, then make it do something else at the very least. Add chance to ignore CC, or short term increase to magic resists - anything is better than nothing.

Thu 11 Oct 2018 7:03 PM by Zintair

depth wrote: ↑
Thu 11 Oct 2018 4:27 AM
Making charge actually do something useful would be a nice change, if people cant get on board with its updated version, then make it do something else at the very least. Add chance to ignore CC, or short term increase to magic resists - anything is better than nothing.

Would definitely be nice! 15% chance to avoid Cc while active for 30 sec on 3-5 min cooldown or something. The tooltip currently says To be immune to all CC so I dunno what the Devs would consider fair.

Although it further pushes the hybrids away from a valid 8 man spot competitive spot which I think should be going the opposite. More proof how strong savage are that they outshine the tank class that should be getting the spots lmao.