RE: Clarification to new rules on bowtowns

Quoting Uthred here:

Dueling in rvr is not illegal. If you see an enemy and want to /bow before you fight, that is not a problem.

We just dont want bow towns, where people are sitting in a circle and doing their fair fights while others that arent invited to the party, will get zerged down and/or insulted. We had several situations like this before and we told you guys multiple times before, that this is violating the rules.

You can add on a fight or you can watch a fight. Both is fine and within the rules. But move on after a fight, dont insult anyone who is not looking for fair fights, dont intentionally break CC on enemies to help them versus your realm. All these things happened in the past and are strictly forbidden. Btw, those things are forbidden for everyone and it doesnt matter if you are solo, smallman or 8man.

While some clarification is appreciated (GM's don't have issue with duels, Razilly saying Duels are forbidden) posting that quote, isn't as helpful as you think, as my last locked post wont be prominent to anyone in 1month when its on another page, something that is forbidden shouldn't be hidden in a post. If your going to forbid something shouldn't there be fair warning within the rules?

There was no insulting, no one got zerged down last night, no one broke cc on anyone so this quote doesn't apply to what occurred. Quote says violating rules ''We just don't want bow towns, where people are sitting in a circle and doing their fair fights while others that arent invited to the party, will get zerged down and/or insulted.'' But your rules state personal messages are player handled and there's no issue with zerging on Phoenix, struggling to see which rules are violated here.

A part from quote which is true to previous experience with bowtown here is the hanging around, but surely it make sense to be in area where like minded people are playing? Like for example 8mans roaming task area looking for other groups. A solo non speed visi should be forced to move on from people who want to fight with equal numbers to roam where smalls/fg's, are? What's the logic here please?

Clarification would be appreciated.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 7:10 PM by

Uthred

ajaxx wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 6:27 PM
While some clarification is appreciated (GM's don't have issue with duels, Razilly saying Duels are forbidden) posting that quote, isn't as helpful as you think, as my last locked post wont be prominent to anyone in 1month when its on another page, something that is forbidden shouldn't be hidden in a post. If your going to forbid something shouldn't there be fair warning within the rules?

There was no insulting, no one got zerged down last night, no one broke cc on anyone so this quote doesn't apply to what occurred. Quote says violating rules ''We just don't want bow towns, where people are sitting in a circle and doing their fair fights while others that arent invited to the party, will get zerged down and/or insulted.'' But your rules state personal messages are player handled and there's no issue with zerging on Phoenix, struggling to see which rules are violated here.

A part from quote which is true to previous experience with bowtown here is the hanging around, but surely it make sense to be in area where like minded people are playing? Like for example 8mans roaming task area looking for other groups. A solo non speed visi should be forced to move on from people who want to fight with equal numbers to roam where smalls/fg's, are? What's the logic here please?

Clarification would be appreciated.

First of all. Razilly and I did say the exact same thing. A one time duel/fight (duel = starting with an emote) is totally fine. No one will punish you for doing so. You can also watch others fighting. But move on after. Dont start a sit-in or bow town. Whatever you want to call it. That is the main thing.

ajaxx wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 6:27 PM
There was no insulting, no one got zerged down last night, no one broke cc on anyone so this quote doesn't apply to what occurred. Quote says violating rules ''We just don't want bow towns, where people are sitting in a circle and doing their fair fights while others that arent invited to the party, will get zerged down and/or insulted.'' But your rules state personal messages are player handled and there's no issue with zerging on Phoenix, struggling to see which rules are violated here.

I never said that this happened last night. I only named the reasons why we dont want bow towns. Because it will easily become like this. We experienced that on many occasions before. Yes, our rules say that personal messages are player handled, but our rules also state that any insults are forbidden and we already muted and/or banned players if those insults were to harsh. That has nothing to do with bow towns or solos, this rule is valid for everyone.

ajaxx wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 6:27 PM
A part from quote which is true to previous experience with bowtown here is the hanging around, but surely it make sense to be in area where like minded people are playing? Like for example 8mans roaming task area looking for other groups. A solo non speed visi should be forced to move on from people who want to fight with equal numbers to roam where smalls/fg's, are? What's the logic here please?

If two 8man groups would just sit on one spot, have a fight, getting rezzed by spectators and repeat, they would also get warned by the staff. The logic behind all this is, that when you are entering the frontiers, you are in an rvr zone. We dont have any problems if players dont add on fights, but we do have problems when players just sit down as this will lead sooner or later to bow towns and to the above stated insults, intentional CC breaking, etc.

You can use the /fairfight command and everyone interested in solo fights can easily see where to find you. Plus we know that the solo discord exists, so it should be quite easy to find a zone where to meet and where to find like minded players. The same thing are the 8mans doing in their discord.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 8:08 PM by ajaxx

[Announce: Razilly]: Organized duels/bowtowns are strictly forbidden

That's the message from last night, yet here your saying to use 3rd party software to organize duels, who to listen to?

Thu 18 Feb 2021 9:50 PM by ExcretusMaximus

ajaxx wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 8:08 PM
[Announce: Razilly]: Organized duels/bowtowns are strictly forbidden

That's the message from last night, yet here your saying to use 3rd party software to organize duels, who to listen to?

Setting up a zone for solos to roam, looking for fights, is not the same as saying "Meet me at the Blue Man, we'll all sit around his tower and kill each other until reported."

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:13 PM by

Uthred

ajaxx wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 8:08 PM
[Announce: Razilly]: Organized duels/bowtowns are strictly forbidden

That's the message from last night, yet here your saying to use 3rd party software to organize duels, who to listen to?

Like I said: it is not forbidden to say: all come to Emain. It is basically the same what /fairfight list is doing.

But: it is forbidden to meet at some loc, sit down and start a duel circle.

Running around/roaming = good
Creating a static bow town = bad

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:40 PM by ajaxx

Running around/roaming = good
Creating a static bow town = bad

Perfect, ty.

Fri 19 Feb 2021 3:04 PM by monkeygodbob

I'm still confused. Is me standing on the Beno bridge and not attacking people who're fighting whilst I wait to be attacked against the rules or not? Also, why would it be against the rules for said people standing on the bridge to all happen to attack a small man who came in?

Fri 19 Feb 2021 3:21 PM by Astaa

You can stand on the bridge waiting for a fight all you like, that is not the same thing as announcing on discord or something that you are on Beno bridge waiting for a fight.

Other solo people can also stand there and wait for fights and are free to attack whoever comes along, or not attack, entirely up to them.

There is no confusion about bowtowns, it is obvious what they are and what the definition is, and we aren't to do them, so shouldn't

Fri 19 Feb 2021 3:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Uthred wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:13 PM
Like I said: it is not forbidden to say: all come to Emain. It is basically the same what /fairfight list is doing.

But: it is forbidden to meet at some loc, sit down and start a duel circle.

Running around/roaming = good
Creating a static bow town = bad

I feel like I already said that.

Fri 19 Feb 2021 3:52 PM by Odnx

Differences between bowtown and 8v8 or 3v3 arena ?

Fri 19 Feb 2021 5:22 PM by monkeygodbob

Odnx wrote: ↑
Fri 19 Feb 2021 3:52 PM
Differences between bowtown and 8v8 or 3v3 arena ?

8v8 and 3v3 get bonus RPs if on the list I think? They also don't get yelled at.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 10:49 AM by DarkDavion

The problem of fairfight, duels etc is that in the long (or even in the short) run became boring. What kills the fun is the predictable fights...if u GM can give us a last chance but with something that encourage chaos and not predictable fights but only of solo peoples. Something like a solo task where only soloers can join and the 1vs1vs1vs1 is encouraged (if not pvp even better where the realm pride matters), I suggest a RP bonus at the end of the task for the guy with most kills, the action must never stop and the add encouraged..
Come on Uthred think about it, give us soloers a last chance

Wed 24 Feb 2021 4:36 PM by soremir

I still just don't really see how EV is not just a larger 8v8 Bowtown, especially off-task. The fact that they move around a little bit before finding each other and fighting doesn't really seem like a real distinction. All the other behaviours, like pulling off, flaming, and ganging up on adds are all very real there.

Sure there are differences in the details, but it really doesn't feel like a material qualitative difference to me. It all seems like a very grey distinction, designed to keep 8-mans very happy. Except of course that one group gets banned and the other gets a RP bonus.

Also I don't think that bowtowns look like a lot of fun, but why do we really care that much? Why are the 8-mans who play their rigid 8v8 duels and pull off from realm allies allowed to "play as they want", but people who want to sit down and have 1v1 duels, they are in trouble? I remember when Bowtown was at Trelle. I just thought this is weird, then I thought it sucked, then I ran away. And that was it.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 6:43 PM by ExcretusMaximus

soremir wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Feb 2021 4:36 PM
Why are the 8-mans who play their rigid 8v8 duels and pull off from realm allies allowed to "play as they want", but people who want to sit down and have 1v1 duels, they are in trouble?

Because the people who own the server are extremely and obviously biased toward the 8v8 side of the game. If you're going to play here, you better get used to it.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 6:51 PM by

Uthred

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Feb 2021 6:43 PM
soremir wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Feb 2021 4:36 PM
Why are the 8-mans who play their rigid 8v8 duels and pull off from realm allies allowed to "play as they want", but people who want to sit down and have 1v1 duels, they are in trouble?

Because the people who own the server are extremely and obviously biased toward the 8v8 side of the game. If you're going to play here, you better get used to it.

This is not correct and should I ever see any other comments from you like this, I will just mute you on the forum. Understand this as your one and only warning.

As explained multiple times before, the rules are the same for every player on this server, no matter what playstyle the player likes most. If multiple 8man would sit in a circle, etc they would get the same warning as any other player would get.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 7:03 PM by DarkDavion

soremir wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Feb 2021 4:36 PM
I still just don't really see how EV is not just a larger 8v8 Bowtown, especially off-task. The fact that they move around a little bit before finding each other and fighting doesn't really seem like a real distinction. All the other behaviours, like pulling off, flaming, and ganging up on adds are all very real there.

Sure there are differences in the details, but it really doesn't feel like a material qualitative difference to me. It all seems like a very grey distinction, designed to keep 8-mans very happy. Except of course that one group gets banned and the other gets a RP bonus.

Also I don't think that bowtowns look like a lot of fun, but why do we really care that much? Why are the 8-mans who play their rigid 8v8 duels and pull off from realm allies allowed to "play as they want", but people who want to sit down and have 1v1 duels, they are in trouble? I remember when Bowtown was at Trelle. I just thought this is weird, then I thought it sucked, then I ran away. And that was it.

I am duel lover bud, here the motivation bcs it's different:
1) The very first reason is bcs these bowtowns cause a lot of compliant and extra work for the GM, they said multiple times that were extremely toxic and very few people cause a lot of extra work.
2) Reason is that even the duelists after a bit of time get bored, this is proved by the pvp zone always empty at the end (yes they reduced RP gain and stuff but isn't the only reason)
3) The 8v8 allow a lot of classes and is less predictable (ok 8 10l will crush 99% a team of 8 2l) and is DaoC, the bow town simply kills the DaoC flavor.
For this reason I would very much see a solo task, maybe even just occasionally, just for solo people and that encourages chaos. This will keep the DaoC flavor, i am pretty sure people will love it, all classes can join and have fun, not only 1vs1 specialists.

Wed 24 Feb 2021 8:35 PM by soremir

DarkDavion wrote: ↑
Wed 24 Feb 2021 7:03 PM
I am duel lover bud, here the motivation bcs it's different:
1) The very first reason is bcs these bowtowns cause a lot of compliant and extra work for the GM, they said multiple times that were extremely toxic and very few people cause a lot of extra work.

Yeah, this does make sense to me I guess. The GMs do have limited bandwidth and are doing this for free, so if it really does save them some major headaches, then I can get behind it.

Fri 26 Feb 2021 11:08 AM by Xenosapien

Good, there are way too many garbage solo players on this server anyway, people that play like necro and stuff and expect fair clean fights 1v1.

People that will zerg you down forever, because you added when you were rr2 and everyone else was rr10.

Or my favorite, people that lose to the worst class in the game (hunter) and zerg you down everytime, because they lost on merc, reaver, champ, ect.

Fri 26 Feb 2021 11:53 AM by DarkDavion

Xenosapien wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Feb 2021 11:08 AM
Good, there are way too many garbage solo players on this server anyway, people that play like necro and stuff and expect fair clean fights 1v1.

The 1vs1 clean fight isn't the goal, already tested already failed.
The aim is to get some place at some time where soloers can fight themselves without being raped by groups, and of course no bow town but the add and the endless fights should be encouraged

Fri 26 Feb 2021 8:19 PM by Pingyongyang

The idea of some rotating solo task area that happens sporadically sounds cool. I wasn't around for PvP zone and it sounds like having it up all the time makes it lose its flavor fast.

Could have random spawn points, and disable grouping, disable assist, disable target, commands, disable buffing other players in that zone so realm solos could coordinate to gang up but would at least make it tougher to heal assist etc if they did. Maybe even also give a bigger RP decrease the more one realm tag another realm for kills so if 4 solo decided to coordinate in discord still they get terrible RP/hr if they try to hunt other solos and act like a small man. And give a bigger RP bonus for solo kills than normal, if the task was sporadic and the solo kill RPs boosted enough I am sure it would get alot of action.

Also had thought of disabling region chat which I think would be a good thing as long as you dampened the RPs enough for people to act like smallman or 8man in discord.

Another maybe thought is you only get task credit either by getting killed, or by killing someone with 2 tags max for your realm. So this would force people to split up more getting their task kill in.

Also could try to make zone pretty large and depending on how many players are in the zone at any time tighten the spawn radius with less players and increase the spawn radius when more players so everyone is spread out at a relative distance that keeps action going while making it harder for one realm to form a roaming mob.

Fri 26 Feb 2021 9:45 PM by gotwqqd

I think a way for solo players to have a BETTER chance with 1v1 encounters would be having a couple dozen remote areas that when solo you are randomly teleported to.
This prevents porting and grouping.
And camping of every location becomes impossible.
Maybe you have a pool of say 50 locations and at any time 5 are active and randomly ported to. These five locations are reset every 30 minutes? (Whatever works) or you can change one at a time where it’s x minutes/5, oldest port changed randomly to one of the 45 not used.

Sat 27 Feb 2021 12:35 AM by DarkDavion

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Feb 2021 9:45 PM
I think a way for solo players to have a BETTER chance with 1v1 encounters would be having a couple dozen remote areas that when solo you are randomly teleported to.
This prevents porting and grouping.
And camping of every location becomes impossible.
Maybe you have a pool of say 50 locations and at any time 5 are active and randomly ported to. These five locations are reset every 30 minutes? (Whatever works) or you can change one at a time where it’s x minutes/5, oldest port changed randomly to one of the 45 not used.

This could work if the population is very large, maybe is better if u realize the same concept but random tp to a small zone with just 2 hibs 2mids and 2 albs, all random and the winners get a small RP prize, this doesn't mean 2vs2vs2 but just 6 ppl in an area, this could end in 1vs1vs1 1vs2vs1 etc with smaller group and all random suond pretty ez to make and pretty hard to cheat.

Sat 27 Feb 2021 9:17 AM by Astaa

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Feb 2021 9:45 PM
I think a way for solo players to have a BETTER chance with 1v1 encounters would be having a couple dozen remote areas that when solo you are randomly teleported to.
This prevents porting and grouping.
And camping of every location becomes impossible.
Maybe you have a pool of say 50 locations and at any time 5 are active and randomly ported to. These five locations are reset every 30 minutes? (Whatever works) or you can change one at a time where it’s x minutes/5, oldest port changed randomly to one of the 45 not used.

I like this idea!

Sun 28 Feb 2021 5:47 AM by Nheryn

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Feb 2021 9:17 AM
gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Fri 26 Feb 2021 9:45 PM
I think a way for solo players to have a BETTER chance with 1v1 encounters would be having a couple dozen remote areas that when solo you are randomly teleported to.
This prevents porting and grouping.
And camping of every location becomes impossible.
Maybe you have a pool of say 50 locations and at any time 5 are active and randomly ported to. These five locations are reset every 30 minutes? (Whatever works) or you can change one at a time where it’s x minutes/5, oldest port changed randomly to one of the 45 not used.

I like this idea!

Yeah I like it too !

But if i understand well the rules, someone who don't do a duel but always stay in same place, like some people in DC bridge for example, and don't move after a fight, it's forbidden too ? Or this rule it's only for dueler ?