On RvR, BG leaders and new blood

Hello all,
considering there will be soon a new event I think could be interesting to understand the situation on the three realms from the point of view of population, BG activity and BG leaders playing in the different realms.
This could be helpful for people like me to understand which character to create and use during the event maybe trying to help the underpopulated or struggling realm.

Recently it seems like Hibernia did not have any issue to defend 4-5 relics and have always BG leaders able to give continuity during the day (and also night from EU point of view), Reix, Gil, Smap, Lavar and others, it seems like there's no shortage of people willing to take the burden of leading other realm members.
Migard had in the past months (going back to 2 playing field events ago) Frape trying to manage the EU BG with some success (and some defeats) but overall making Mid again a presence in BG activity, not playing in Mid I'm not really sure what's the real situation.
Albion well it was really struggling in the last couple of months as far as concern BG even if Pilz moved trying to create again a real presence of Alb Bg with alternate luck but in the last few days I've seen Polemo/Frape coming back, also not sure it's a short break or commitment but we will see.

It's clear from my point of view that the realm timer switch makes difficult to commit to one realm and everyone it's free to join whatever they want but anyway I'd like to have a short talk to understand what's from your point of view the realm which will be in need maybe helping people to choose to give a shot creating toon there.
I think having three realms fighting and a sort of balance of leaders and population is in the common interest for everyone.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 9:38 AM by Tommylad

A New Event? Another Event?.....Wow really? OMG A New Event........Seriously???? What will happen to RvR?...... oh wait......What will happen to Zerging?????? ,,,,,oh well wake us when the NEW EVENT is over lololol

Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:40 AM by Siouxsie

RPs last 48 hours:

Out of the top 20, 50% (10) are Hibernian players, 40% (8) are Albion players.. and only 10% (2) are Midgard players.

Really tells you all you need to know about the server. RVRing on Midgard is unfun unless you're in some leet cliquish group.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM by Astaa

Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:08 PM by Siouxsie

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

The 2 days Smap/Suap tried to lead Mid BGs he was shouting and blaming people for not putting down TWFs, NMs and STs..
No idea about Pilz or Reix (Relx?)

Mon 21 Jun 2021 1:12 PM by borodino1812

I play all three realms, obviously some BG leaders have a more laidback style than others. That creates a better atmosphere. People will vote with their feet.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:01 AM by mattymc

Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

TBH they <Hibbs> really dont fight anyone: certainly nothing numbers wise to worry about, so the comparisons are not so accurate. There could be a lot done to make RvR fun --- and Leadership style plays it's part -- but until the DEVs decide to make actual RvR worthwhile <that is you get more points fighting than tasking or PvEing keeps, defense is worthwhile, and Balance is looked at in a large scale lens not just a cookie cutter 8 v 8 approach, realm pop bonuses actual mean something>, nothing will change. People will flock to the easiest realm to PvE keeps <which is not now nor has it ever been Mid> and actual Realm warfare will not exist.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 4:48 AM by goodthymes

mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:01 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

TBH they <Hibbs> really dont fight anyone: certainly nothing numbers wise to worry about, so the comparisons are not so accurate. There could be a lot done to make RvR fun --- and Leadership style plays it's part -- but until the DEVs decide to make actual RvR worthwhile <that is you get more points fighting than tasking or PvEing keeps, defense is worthwhile, and Balance is looked at in a large scale lens not just a cookie cutter 8 v 8 approach, realm pop bonuses actual mean something>, nothing will change. People will flock to the easiest realm to PvE keeps <which is not now nor has it ever been Mid> and actual Realm warfare will not exist.

So you weren't here during the first year of this server?

Tue 29 Jun 2021 6:37 AM by Astaa

Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:08 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

The 2 days Smap/Suap tried to lead Mid BGs he was shouting and blaming people for not putting down TWFs, NMs and STs..
No idea about Pilz or Reix (Relx?)

Yeah, I am not sure what happened with Smap, since he came back from a break from Hib he is much more chilled.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 8:12 AM by byron

Daoc offers some alternative on what you want to do, so there are some options to do PvP (BG, small, 8roam, solo, etc..). Everyone is free to play in the way they have fun. The only thing that should be adjusted is the reward of taking empty towers/keeps. The reward is very high and this help the major realm of the moment (now it is Hib but it should be valid also for the other realms) to continue to take empty keeps of other realms without any logic about any relic raid or something similar. It is just a RP farming with very few effort...indeed you see many high rank players doing that instead of roaming and try to fight groups of other realms. High rewards with less effort.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 10:28 AM by snaw

Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 6:37 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:08 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

The 2 days Smap/Suap tried to lead Mid BGs he was shouting and blaming people for not putting down TWFs, NMs and STs..
No idea about Pilz or Reix (Relx?)

Yeah, I am not sure what happened with Smap, since he came back from a break from Hib he is much more chilled.

Experienced the guy for a couple of weeks I think on mid, not sure what leadership school he went to but ranting and raving while calling everyone stupid and thinking he's somehow gonna save mid solo was never a strategy destined for success.

Seems to be a theme, saw similar with Polemo; Great some days, unhinged paranoid ranter others.

Wish I knew the answer for mid, equally wish PK would bugger off back to wherever they were, killing the game hoovering up players for RP's. Where's the challenge in that, do find that style incredibly sad and pathetic.

Does feel like some big social experiment with some whacko theories put forward; this idea a specific realm is somehow prone to certain characteristics etc. It's a game, not a culture or a way of thinking. We've more in common than we don't.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:23 PM by Astaa

snaw wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 10:28 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 6:37 AM
Siouxsie wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 12:08 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

The 2 days Smap/Suap tried to lead Mid BGs he was shouting and blaming people for not putting down TWFs, NMs and STs..
No idea about Pilz or Reix (Relx?)

Yeah, I am not sure what happened with Smap, since he came back from a break from Hib he is much more chilled.

Experienced the guy for a couple of weeks I think on mid, not sure what leadership school he went to but ranting and raving while calling everyone stupid and thinking he's somehow gonna save mid solo was never a strategy destined for success.

Seems to be a theme, saw similar with Polemo; Great some days, unhinged paranoid ranter others.

Wish I knew the answer for mid, equally wish PK would bugger off back to wherever they were, killing the game hoovering up players for RP's. Where's the challenge in that, do find that style incredibly sad and pathetic.

Does feel like some big social experiment with some whacko theories put forward; this idea a specific realm is somehow prone to certain characteristics etc. It's a game, not a culture or a way of thinking. We've more in common than we don't.

Funnily enough, I thought about this years ago that somehow the leveling experience moulded people into playing a certain style. On Excal Albs used to pretty much just sit around waiting for Zoyster/Outlaw to log on and zerg milegates, mids just sulked a lot or did 8man and Hibs did a mixture of everything. Somehow Emain became the de facto place to go for action on pretty much every server I have been on.

It can't be that here though, I think most people have switched realms several times in their DAOC history and obviously the levelling side of the game has changed near completely yet somehow the way each realm approaches it changes hugely. Some of that is going to be down to classes played etc but all 3 realms have the basics, just a lack of coordination sometimes.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 3:28 PM by mattymc

goodthymes wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 4:48 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:01 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

TBH they <Hibbs> really dont fight anyone: certainly nothing numbers wise to worry about, so the comparisons are not so accurate. There could be a lot done to make RvR fun --- and Leadership style plays it's part -- but until the DEVs decide to make actual RvR worthwhile <that is you get more points fighting than tasking or PvEing keeps, defense is worthwhile, and Balance is looked at in a large scale lens not just a cookie cutter 8 v 8 approach, realm pop bonuses actual mean something>, nothing will change. People will flock to the easiest realm to PvE keeps <which is not now nor has it ever been Mid> and actual Realm warfare will not exist.

So you weren't here during the first year of this server?

I was ...so what? Focus on what is needed now not what once was.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 5:59 PM by goodthymes

mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 3:28 PM
goodthymes wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 4:48 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:01 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

TBH they <Hibbs> really dont fight anyone: certainly nothing numbers wise to worry about, so the comparisons are not so accurate. There could be a lot done to make RvR fun --- and Leadership style plays it's part -- but until the DEVs decide to make actual RvR worthwhile <that is you get more points fighting than tasking or PvEing keeps, defense is worthwhile, and Balance is looked at in a large scale lens not just a cookie cutter 8 v 8 approach, realm pop bonuses actual mean something>, nothing will change. People will flock to the easiest realm to PvE keeps <which is not now nor has it ever been Mid> and actual Realm warfare will not exist.

So you weren't here during the first year of this server?

I was ...so what? Focus on what is needed now not what once was.

You are delusional if you don't recall Giosakis PvE Keeps ( as you call it) and mids dominated. Problem is the realm. I do agree though that the rp bonus from keep takes/fights need a hard look over and its impact on motivation for zerg fights.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 7:20 PM by mattymc

goodthymes wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 5:59 PM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 3:28 PM
goodthymes wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 4:48 AM
mattymc wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 12:01 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Jun 2021 11:47 AM
Its methods of leading as well, the people you mention as Hib BG leaders do not shout and scream and blame every loss on others.

TBH they <Hibbs> really dont fight anyone: certainly nothing numbers wise to worry about, so the comparisons are not so accurate. There could be a lot done to make RvR fun --- and Leadership style plays it's part -- but until the DEVs decide to make actual RvR worthwhile <that is you get more points fighting than tasking or PvEing keeps, defense is worthwhile, and Balance is looked at in a large scale lens not just a cookie cutter 8 v 8 approach, realm pop bonuses actual mean something>, nothing will change. People will flock to the easiest realm to PvE keeps <which is not now nor has it ever been Mid> and actual Realm warfare will not exist.

So you weren't here during the first year of this server?

I was ...so what? Focus on what is needed now not what once was.

You are delusional if you don't recall Giosakis PvE Keeps ( as you call it) and mids dominated. Problem is the realm. I do agree though that the rp bonus from keep takes/fights need a hard look over and its impact on motivation for zerg fights.

If it's not clear, anyone PvEing keeps is silly <though this didn't happen in the first year on mid, regardless of time line issues>, the ONLY thing more silly is that it is PROFITABLE to do so... still. SO WHAT? --- how is it fixed now and what can/should the DEVS part be ---- players will do what they do <everyone is entitled to their opinion on that>, but I simply find it silly PHOENIX has basically ignored the RvR portion of the game.

Tue 29 Jun 2021 11:20 PM by Moondragon

Right now, large scale BG fights (or zerg) are heavily skewed to any realm with superior numbers. And since people in general don't like losing, they can flock to the side with the obvious numerical advantage and win, cascading into a self-reinforcing loop that eventually leads to one realm dominating so much that the server as a whole suffers. The people who refuse to join the obviously winning realm get tired of losing repeatedly and simply log off and may not return. This also creates a self-reinforcing loop. All of this is bad for the server. Everything in this paragraph everyone knows and is self-evident.

What you need are players who get tired of winning and join the losing realm. While this does indeed happen, it isn't happening fast enough to keep RvR healthy (meaning any realm has a chance at any time because the numbers are relatively even). There needs to be extra incentives put in place to get people to join the currently losing realm(s). You can define "losing" as relics, or % of rps earned, or simple level 50 RvR population averages (or some combination). The current RP incentive bonus, while useful, isn't providing enough incentive. Furthermore, the moment you join, the incentive begins to disappear.

Perhaps shorter realm switch timers to "losing" RvR realms. Perhaps a bonus that accumulates to a realm for people who stay on the "losing" realms that they lose should they switch to the "winning" realm. What you obviously don't want is for losing to more effective for realm points than winning, but when battlegroup of 150 keeps hitting a battlegroup of 30-40 players, over and over, it's going to kill the server eventually. It's hard to rally people to your battlegroup knowing they're going to face an opposition three times the number. The current RP bonus is meaningless when you get steamrolled.

Obviously, if the solution were easy, it would have been done already. But there needs to be an incentive for people to switch to the "losing" realms that doesn't disappear the moment they switch like the current RP bonus setup works.

Wed 30 Jun 2021 8:53 AM by snaw

Moondragon wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 11:20 PM
Right now, large scale BG fights (or zerg) are heavily skewed to any realm with superior numbers. And since people in general don't like losing, they can flock to the side with the obvious numerical advantage and win, cascading into a self-reinforcing loop that eventually leads to one realm dominating so much that the server as a whole suffers. The people who refuse to join the obviously winning realm get tired of losing repeatedly and simply log off and may not return. This also creates a self-reinforcing loop. All of this is bad for the server. Everything in this paragraph everyone knows and is self-evident.

What you need are players who get tired of winning and join the losing realm. While this does indeed happen, it isn't happening fast enough to keep RvR healthy (meaning any realm has a chance at any time because the numbers are relatively even). There needs to be extra incentives put in place to get people to join the currently losing realm(s). You can define "losing" as relics, or % of rps earned, or simple level 50 RvR population averages (or some combination). The current RP incentive bonus, while useful, isn't providing enough incentive. Furthermore, the moment you join, the incentive begins to disappear.

Perhaps shorter realm switch timers to "losing" RvR realms. Perhaps a bonus that accumulates to a realm for people who stay on the "losing" realms that they lose should they switch to the "winning" realm. What you obviously don't want is for losing to more effective for realm points than winning, but when battlegroup of 150 keeps hitting a battlegroup of 30-40 players, over and over, it's going to kill the server eventually. It's hard to rally people to your battlegroup knowing they're going to face an opposition three times the number. The current RP bonus is meaningless when you get steamrolled.

Obviously, if the solution were easy, it would have been done already. But there needs to be an incentive for people to switch to the "losing" realms that doesn't disappear the moment they switch like the current RP bonus setup works.

Spot on, there's no incentive. Mid is beeding players either to other realms or quitting. I play same time most days, and of late the odds have become so stacked and there's no BG and no defence to speak of. Every night now it's hib = alb + mid combined. Most of those hibs are out and active vs most of mid is sitting AFK in uppland.

Wed 30 Jun 2021 9:40 AM by Sepplord

Moondragon wrote: ↑
Tue 29 Jun 2021 11:20 PM
Obviously, if the solution were easy, it would have been done already. But there needs to be an incentive for people to switch to the "losing" realms that doesn't disappear the moment they switch like the current RP bonus setup works.

First sentence really is key, i also don't have a magical perfect solution on how to exactly do it, but imo there need to be incentives to pick fights you might lose. Rewards for losing are a really difficult topic, as winning definitely should come with much bigger rewards, but if a zerg of 30people decides to try and fight the enemy group of 60people then they should get a bigger reward for killing 15people, compared to just running over a group of 15people.
If there are incentives to pick fights, being disadvantaged, then more people will pick fights of all kinds, and that means more people will experience those moments where you somehow win such a fight.

that's the theory, i am convinced would be a good thing. But every idea i get of how to actively implement it immediatly reminds me of ways how to abuse it for the worse.

Wed 30 Jun 2021 5:01 PM by Siouxsie

A good start would be to undo the nerfs to Midgard, and undo the buffs to Hibernia. (Bards with root!? Why?! Chanters with pet that casts disease?)
It's probably too late now. You'd get overwhelming amount of hib whiners who can't steamroll people any more.. ad they're too used to it now.
How about removing the hitpoints buff for all hibs? That might even the odds a bit. Or remove baseline stun.
This server's all about shaking up all kinds of crazy things.. why not nerf the heck out of Hibernia? It might be great for the server and keep it alive.