Minstrel & Mentalist along CK magnet phenomenon

Negative effects purge working on Mentalist's pet but no longer on Minstrel.
How does that make any sense ?
Shall we recover some of the basic mechanics on Minstrel since no one solo on Phoenix ? Most people stick to CK/Bridge or even Dock in order to claim an insane FEATHER bonus.
Shouldn't we grant a feather bonus outside these tiny choke points to fully appreciate NF ?

Thu 18 Feb 2021 7:44 PM by Siouxsie

Sek wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 5:04 PM
Negative effects purge working on Mentalist's pet but no longer on Minstrel.
How does that make any sense ?
Shall we recover some of the basic mechanics on Minstrel since no one solo on Phoenix ? Most people stick to CK/Bridge or even Dock in order to claim an insane FEATHER bonus.
Shouldn't we grant a feather bonus outside these tiny choke points to fully appreciate NF ?

I thought you only got feather bonus if you were fighting enemy near a keep or tower?

Thu 18 Feb 2021 8:21 PM by Sek

I will adventure myself by claiming that both bridge and dock are close to CK for the most audacious players before pulling back toward CK or being helped by hundred companions of the CK&CO fellowship.
NF is a huge map yet the choke points remain the same. That Feather bonus only encourage people to mass around more or less safe areas.
I somehow get that people seek number for safety concern aka a BG of 80 players running from one flag to another even if it doesn't make any sense to me but why would you reward people taking roots nearby any keep rather than those fully exploiting New Frontier map ?
Maybe it is time to support players on the fray spending several minutes to get the upper hand and eventually win without burning a single aoe DD or dot.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 9:47 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Sek wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 5:04 PM
How does that make any sense ?

Different classes function differently.

Radical idea, I know.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:02 PM by Tyrlaan

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 9:47 PM
Sek wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 5:04 PM
How does that make any sense ?

Different classes function differently.

Radical idea, I know.

Well they used to work the same way. On Minstrels it was deemed overpowered. Yet on all those FOTM Mentalists with their grey pets to de-CC themselves it isn´t.

Go figure.

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:13 PM by Astaa

Has a red pet
Has speed
Has climb walls
Has stealth
Has Chain
Has 2 insta DDs/interrupts
Has 2 CCs

Still whines.

lol

Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:46 PM by Sek

Astaa wrote: ↑
Thu 18 Feb 2021 10:13 PM
Has a red pet
Has speed
Has climb walls
Has stealth
Has Chain
Has 2 insta DDs/interrupts
Has 2 CCs

Still whines.

lol

You know nothing about DAOC, don't you.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 2:57 PM by Sek

Can we discuss about Templar/Frost stallion fully buffed by cleric and yet barely dealing 150 damage on solo target with self buffs and no extra abs as well ?
It is nice to add 300-700 extra hps if not more to tanks but doesn't make any sense when Frost stallion are only dealing 50% or less of their supposed 1.65 damage..
Add to that the 15 years old negative purge effect on pet feature revamped months ago and you only have a speedbot left.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 3:07 PM by DJ2000

Frost Stallions are oj and picked for other reasons besides the melee damage.
Templar are mostly yellow and picked for their positional styles and overall tanky'nes, and for them to hit for 150 is maybe even too much.
Pets are supposed to enrich your playstyle as a Minstrel, not to replace you as the main damage dealer(/threat).

Minstrel
Cast Time: instant
Cost: no Mana Cost
Duration: 10s
Frequency: 5s
Upkeep: no Mana Cost
Recast Delay: 6s (=here on phoenix. Used to have no recast delay)
No restrictions on charm-able NPC types

Mentalist
Cast Time: 3s
Cost: no Mana Cost
Duration: 10s
Frequency: 5s
Upkeep: (depends on spell Lvl) 1 - 7
Recast delay: No delay (2nd press = cancel spell)
Different Spell Levels restrict charm-able NPC types.

The only similar feature of the 2 charm spells is/was the Pulse aspect to it.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 5:09 PM by joshisanonymous

Sek has no idea how to play this game, so no reason to humor his ridiculous arguments. I played with his healer, Boor, for one night, and then I understood why no one ever wanted to play with him. It's not just the lack of skill, it's the fact that he's so utterly confident that he has skill when he doesn't. I can barely even follow what his argument is in this thread.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 5:59 PM by easytoremember

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 5:09 PM
Sek has no idea how to play this game, so no reason to humor his ridiculous arguments. I played with his healer, Boor, for one night, and then I understood why no one ever wanted to play with him. It's not just the lack of skill, it's the fact that he's so utterly confident that he has skill when he doesn't. I can barely even follow what his argument is in this thread.

You can't follow why a lv56 pet with full buffs hitting meekly is irrational?

Sat 20 Feb 2021 9:39 PM by Sek

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 5:09 PM
Sek has no idea how to play this game, so no reason to humor his ridiculous arguments. I played with his healer, Boor, for one night, and then I understood why no one ever wanted to play with him. It's not just the lack of skill, it's the fact that he's so utterly confident that he has skill when he doesn't. I can barely even follow what his argument is in this thread.

Looks like someone is frustrated.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 9:49 PM by Sek

DJ2000 wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 3:07 PM
Frost Stallions are oj and picked for other reasons besides the melee damage.
Templar are mostly yellow and picked for their positional styles and overall tanky'nes, and for them to hit for 150 is maybe even too much.
Pets are supposed to enrich your playstyle as a Minstrel, not to replace you as the main damage dealer(/threat).

Minstrel
Cast Time: instant
Cost: no Mana Cost
Duration: 10s
Frequency: 5s
Upkeep: no Mana Cost
Recast Delay: 6s (=here on phoenix. Used to have no recast delay)
No restrictions on charm-able NPC types

Mentalist
Cast Time: 3s
Cost: no Mana Cost
Duration: 10s
Frequency: 5s
Upkeep: (depends on spell Lvl) 1 - 7
Recast delay: No delay (2nd press = cancel spell)
Different Spell Levels restrict charm-able NPC types.

The only similar feature of the 2 charm spells is/was the Pulse aspect to it.

Mentioning the cold proc on Frost stallion is irrelevant since it has always been there, the current pet damage is very low compared to 1.65 even live if you take in count the melee hp buffer.
Skald at equal rank is capable of defeating a minstrel with almost no effort at all even if the minstrel itself plays at 500% and care about positionning, kitting and co.. This is very unique to Phoenix.
There are very little advantages through the ranks as minstrel since so called Barguest along other red pets deal less damage than most yellowish epic pets.
I am not there to troll, i am quite objective and willing to defend that funny class Minstrel is regardless of the overall frustration.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 10:36 PM by Astaa

Mincer tears, delicious.

You play a broken, OP and protected class, if you can't win with it then maybe 'ahem' git gud

Sat 20 Feb 2021 10:42 PM by Sek

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 10:36 PM
Mincer tears, delicious.

You play a broken, OP and protected class, if you can't win with it then maybe 'ahem' git gud

Nothing to do with tear nor getting gud, you probably not capable of doing half my multitasking.
I am pointing out Minstrel issues in the most neutral way.. All you people doing is trolling without relevant arguments, tells a lot about whiners that are scared of an heavily nerfed class.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:06 PM by Astaa

I got templated and RR5 in a week on mincer. Boring class. zero challenge.

I find most mincers don't actually fight me on hero, stick pet, run off. Or stick around, watch pet die and SOS.

The class needs adjusting so that it doesn't rely on pet so much, granted, but you have so many tools, it's obscene.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:40 PM by Sek

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:06 PM
I got templated and RR5 in a week on mincer. Boring class. zero challenge.

I find most mincers don't actually fight me on hero, stick pet, run off. Or stick around, watch pet die and SOS.

The class needs adjusting so that it doesn't rely on pet so much, granted, but you have so many tools, it's obscene.

This is a pet dependent class, damage table tells a lot, always has been. Removing negative effects off pet on release was the essence of this class.
Most classes on daoc are supposedly obscene, all about situations. So many tools ? Bd,necro,sm,healer,bard,mentalist,shaman,skald.... certainly lack tools.
Zero challenge on minstrel ? What is the name of your minstrel ? Any recent video of you thriving against a skald that is not breaking his own snare ?
Boring ? This is one of the most multitasking oriented class, an exciting one.
Sounds more like you got pissed on Hero being farmed by a minstrel off your bridge because you couldn't use a snare.
There is no solo pvp area nor bowtown left, maybe it is time to remove pointless nerfes regarding minstrel.

Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:56 PM by Astaa

I don't lose vs mincers, technically I don't win because they just leg it. Slightly less cheesy than vanish, I guess.

They just have to find a new pet, so they can harass expers again

Sun 21 Feb 2021 4:26 AM by joshisanonymous

Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:56 PM
I don't lose vs mincers, technically I don't win because they just leg it. Slightly less cheesy than vanish, I guess.

They just have to find a new pet, so they can harass expers again

Yup. The only way a minstrel loses any fight, really, is by overcommitting, even with the pet changes.

By contrast, mentalist is one of the least successful solo classes on this server. It's really bizarre that Sek made that comparison in the context of soloing. Makes no sense at all.

Sun 21 Feb 2021 6:59 AM by evert

Sek wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 9:49 PM
Skald at equal rank is capable of defeating a minstrel with almost no effort at all even if the minstrel itself plays at 500% and care about positionning, kitting and co.. This is very unique to Phoenix.

Learn to play, jeez.

Sun 21 Feb 2021 7:07 AM by Sek

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Feb 2021 4:26 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:56 PM
I don't lose vs mincers, technically I don't win because they just leg it. Slightly less cheesy than vanish, I guess.

They just have to find a new pet, so they can harass expers again

Yup. The only way a minstrel loses any fight, really, is by overcommitting, even with the pet changes.

By contrast, mentalist is one of the least successful solo classes on this server. It's really bizarre that Sek made that comparison in the context of soloing. Makes no sense at all.

A SM scared of Minstrel that claim most of his kills by lurking within 50 feets of dock/bridge range applying the MOC 5/Purge engagement rule has an opinion.
Yes i may have encountered your SM once but i probably didn't have SOS up.

There are players that are driven by fear, most of the time unfounded, willing to engage only when given a royal flush while other are doing the best they can with a simple pair.

DAOC is a great competitive videogame yet most of your comments are delusional.

You are complaining about a class because it has last speed ? You would kill any yellow farmer if given the opportunity, do not be an hypocrite ( if only you could move out of CK range).

You are complaining about a class because it has SOS ? Let's talk about vanish, MOC and so many more RAs then.

Red pet ? they deal way less damage than epic yellowish mobs. In fact Minstrel is probably the less powerful class over the rank, its RAS are so limited that originally you were often relying on rank to charm better pets.

Solo related class ? Given your admiration to SOS since you judge a class by its ability to survive i would say that Minstrel on phoenix is outclassed by Skald, Shaman, Necro, Thane, Champion, Assassin's classes and most MOC caster related classes.

I do prefer being outnumbered on open fray while being given a chance to success or fail trying, this is my dope. Yes you can defeat a 4-5+ players with a minstrel if they come 1by1 even more as duo/trio but only because you are granted with average CC and damage facing casual players, you would do the same if not better on bard/ment, skald/sham or healer and several more combinations.

Most players just log on to join a zerg rather than attempting to duo/trio/small and play accordingly to the ongoing action.
It's common to see 2-3 BG of 80 players out and no solo up to fg action through the entire NF therefore most of the community do not truly know how to deal with x or y class when playing out of BG safety, not aware they were capable of being as good as anyone else.
Trust your class, improve with it, take some risk and have fun, this is DAOC.

Sun 21 Feb 2021 9:27 AM by DJ2000

Sek wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Feb 2021 7:07 AM
Trust your class, improve with it, take some risk and have fun, this is DAOC.

'nuff said.
Close thread.

Sun 21 Feb 2021 9:41 PM by joshisanonymous

Sek wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Feb 2021 7:07 AM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 21 Feb 2021 4:26 AM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Sat 20 Feb 2021 11:56 PM
I don't lose vs mincers, technically I don't win because they just leg it. Slightly less cheesy than vanish, I guess.

They just have to find a new pet, so they can harass expers again

Yup. The only way a minstrel loses any fight, really, is by overcommitting, even with the pet changes.

By contrast, mentalist is one of the least successful solo classes on this server. It's really bizarre that Sek made that comparison in the context of soloing. Makes no sense at all.
<long string of utter nonsense>

What in the holy hell are you even talking about? Who said I was scared of minstrels? Since when do I ever hang out at one of my realm's keeps? When did I say that you can't kill any yellow player? When did I "complain" about minstrels having speed? What in the hell is an "epic yellow pet"?

It's not even possible to have a conversation with you, Mr "Neutral", because I have no idea what you're talking about 90% of the time.

Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:32 AM by keen

Ppl always mix two things together, Stealth minst and visi minst. Yes minst is very annoying in Stealth war and is hard to justify why one realm would have such a class with Stealth why others don't. This skews Stealth play.
On the other hand I don't see a problem with visible minstrels. You have to see them as visible solo players and as such they are outperformed by most of their enemies of you don't just kite them. Kiting also just works vs very few classes you face in 1v1. Kiting will lead to long fights you will be added and is also very boring to play , leaving melee minst with pet.
Melee minstrel with a pet is a visible solo char that is not overperforming. Most solo classes such as assassins,skalds, thanes etc will just beat you, yet I see complains about minstrels.

Tue 23 Feb 2021 11:58 AM by Hattrick

keen wrote: ↑
Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:32 AM
Melee minstrel with a pet is a visible solo char that is not overperforming.

I'm new to Phoenix but not to DAoC but I'll weigh in here anyway

I'm curious what your basis for the above statement is?

Here's why I ask that. Looking at the solo kill board for last week, minstrels are represented far more than any other visible class save skalds which outnumber minstrels by 2 on that list. If you use that list as a criteria, you'd have to say that minstrels (along with skalds) are overperforming. When you look a little closer at the minstrels and skalds, you'll see the average realm rank of the minstrels (even tossing out the one thidranki character) is significantly lower than that of the skalds. There were several that I saw that weren't even rank 5 yet. That also kind of indicates that they overperform.

Most solo classes such as assassins,skalds, thanes etc will just beat you, yet I see complains about minstrels.

Lets not kid ourselves, the list is dominated by classes that can more or less dictate the terms of engagement. Assassins and archers do it with stealth, music classes do it with speed. You can compare skalds with minstrels but let's not pretend that any other visible class is going to be able to compete with them solo. You mentioned thanes and they might be great if they can manage to get a fight but they have no tools to facilitate like those other classes and hence, there are only 2 thanes on that list vs. 16 minstrels.

Tue 23 Feb 2021 2:08 PM by keen

Well what I conclude from the weekly solo kills list is, that assassins have 62% of the solo kills last week. Minstrels and Skalds both have ca. 6% solo kills as a share, but still we are discussing Minstrels.
If this chart is used for reference the only archtype we should talk about are assassins followed by a large gap with Skalds and Minstrels. I don't see any talk about Skalds being too strong in here, which has similar performance and is the same archtype. But in relation to assassins count the count of solo minstrels and skalds is neglectable for a reason. I would argue even with speed6 capabilties they can only reach 6% of solo kills.

Tue 23 Feb 2021 8:35 PM by Astaa

As a quick and dirty gauge. There are currently 69 mincers online vs 47 skalds. You can /serverinfo any time and chances are mincers are in the top 3...if not 1. Skalds, largely have to fight toe to toe though, not just stick pet, kite, dd, dd, CC recycle (x2!)

Mincers are utterly broken in 1v1 and yes, I also include in that statement that once the pet is dead they can't win so leg it, which is just a waste of everyone's time.

I have always said that they need more spec points, but their abilities spread out more, so they can either be a group/zerg class or a solo class. The Easiest way to achieve that is to boost their melee slightly and then split charm from DDs CC and speed. Similar to how the devs tried to nerf ments but backtracked. Cap mincer pet to green/blue if they want speed/DDs/CC, or lower speed/DDs/CC if they want a higher level pet. Even throw in climb walls for free, so they don't need to consider 25 stealth.

But yeah, they are fix proof so it's all a waste of time discussing them.