Minstrel ability to have purple pets

Started 14 Aug 2018
by warden50
in RvR
Hi everyone,

I know this server is not live in any ways, but it's been several days we come across, me and my friends, minstrels with purple pets. This does not seem to be right since, first it was not this way on live (at any time), and secondly, minstrels are already the strongest solo class in the meta with regular orange/red pets. Will it be fixed or do you intend to leave it like this ? It is some stupid things like this that may kill the server before its launch
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:28 AM by Gohanssj
it's super dumb, BUUUUUUT the resist rate is like 90% so they gotta sit there spamming charm which doesn#t give them much time to do anything else.

I do totally agree tho, was getting hit by a big purp badger for 350 a hit the other day while the mincer just used DD's and tried to stay away from his own pet
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:38 AM by warden50
no no the worst part it that the mob does not even resist once ! I followed/kitted a Minstrel named Kha with my bard. The guy had a purple pet for like 5mins with no resist until he caught me !!
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:42 AM by Gohanssj
yeah because there is no CD on charm to you constantly click it and never lose pet, just means you have to have pet targeted 90% of the time
Tue 14 Aug 2018 1:26 PM by Cirath
Mincers with rediculous pets has been a thing for awhile. It does seem entirely too easy to hold them here though. I see RR2 minstrels with grand pookas regularly. On Uthgard they needed to be RR8 to hold one.

It isnt neccesairily the pets, its the combination of all their abilities that makes minstrels easily the most powerful solo/smallman class and it isn't even close. Speed 6, stealth, 2 x dd shouts, insta stun, mez, chain armor, pets, access to IP, AP, and the silliness that is old RA SoS. It takes 3 classes in the other two realms to bring most of these abilities to the table.

That said, it kind of is what it is. I'm not sure nerfing them is the right answer. They are beatable if you outplay them, the deck is simply stacked in their favor. Their biggest weakness is overconfidence. They get used to playing on god mode and make mistakes.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 1:31 PM by gruenesschaf
Uthgard had a custom cap where no matter how much you tried you just could not charm over a specific level until a specific rr / instrument skill. On live you could charm a level 60 pet with level 10, you would 100% die soon after but you could hold it for a time.

We are debating on what to do here, on the hand is the question if it's reasonable to allow these kind of pets, on the other hand is the argument "it has always been like this and is a very core part of the minstrel class", it's not something that can nor should just be done.

I think there might be a bug with charm currently where the resist animation won't play (star burst stuff) which would explain why many people think there are no resists whatsoever.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 1:43 PM by Rubin
Just cap it at lvl59 like on live, minstrels are OP enough. There was a reason why they caped it. Just promotes using macros, as many do anyway on minstrels.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 3:29 PM by Dis
well if you cap the level of the minstrel pet, there shouldnt be that much of resists, because 1% on yellows is ok, but as soon as u start charming orange/red ones, they resist like freakin hell all time, u cant even run with speed if you are not perma switching and perma charming the pet. sure it effects the 1n1 szene but in 8vs8 the minstrel is kinda retarded to play without a pet or perma resists on pet. u have to be almost korean with 500+ apm to control the fight (mezz/stun/dds/switch to weapon etc. while holding and spamming the pet charm). so if you reduce the level of charmed pets or something like that, then u have to reduce the resistrate on the orange/red ones too.

and the problem that if you lose the pet(resist or something), the charmed pet still attacks teammembers or for example clerics who are healing in that moment. thats not how it supposed to be isnt it ? the lost pet should attack the minstrel until the tick of charm will get rolin again.

so be careful with changes like that, it could go the wrong way in open 8vs8 etc and makes the minstrel a speedbot.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 4:09 PM by Geek
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 1:31 PM
"it has always been like this and is a very core part of the minstrel class"

Enough said right there. Leave it alone. Don't cater to every single complaint on this forum. It's becoming ridiculous already.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 4:37 PM by Kha
warden50 wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:38 AM
no no the worst part it that the mob does not even resist once ! I followed/kitted a Minstrel named Kha with my bard. The guy had a purple pet for like 5mins with no resist until he caught me !!



It was actually 20 sec, not 5 minutes.

Wasn't planing on attacking you first because i like battlebards and i know it's a free win for my class, but you did amnesia so …
Whatever, we had that fight.

Never resist ? Am not sure about that though : https://imgur.com/LyQQIxC
Did some tests with the devs, and they'll be able to testify as soon as i try to write Something for more than 8 seconds, pet kill me.
Not saying it's the hardest thing in the world, but consider it's not that easy to hold or you would see every single strel with purple pets.
A 90% resist basically means you have to manage 15-20 pulses average every 8 seconds or you lose pets.

As of RR2 handeling a pookha "easily" it will be fixed probably. I shared a whole spreedsheet of datas, a RR2 should be around 95-99% resist, and should not be able to RvR with it, or he focuses only and charm and can't do anything else.
However, RR5+ charming purples with 75 to 90% resist for 61 to 63ish is normal. It even goes down to 50% at RR10 on small purples.

About the damages, we did some test yesterday night, and unless you are untemped, low level, forgot self AFs, unbuffed at all (no potions) you shouldn't get 350 damage or you do Something wrong.
Example of Grand Pookha vs a lurikeen caster who does things the right way it seems :
https://imgur.com/7eTMw7K


One more thing to answer rubin request to nerf just like live did :
We are here to play old daoc balance, if you enjoy live rvr balance that much, play the live server.
A hardcap nerf just like uthgard did isn't smart.
Phoenix take their time to find a balanced solution, and am sure it will more or less be close from the many Pendragon tests i have done. Balanced. No RR2 perma purple, but no need to be 1 years into the server to get enough rank to start having fun.

Not trying to convince anyone, it's as old as daoc, minstrels got some haters, and some lovers.
But atleast now you have real examples of resists and actual damages on prepared to RvR players.

Cheers.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 7:35 PM by Quik
If resists are so bad, why do I see so many minnies with purple pets in total control over them. I see Minnies use their pet to destroy groups and then move on to another small group or group of xpers or greys and they never lose control. Personally I am trying to remember the last time I saw a Minnie lose control and I can't.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 8:21 PM by Kha


You are speaking about xpers group and grey groups... It's a shame but it obivously is easy.
Picture this, a wizard can roam around and land a 1500 damage bolt on a grey. No need to break fingers on it for 20 minutes prior, just a 2 second cast...

Don't be delusional. If you are grey and people wanna kill, you'll die. And many casters will do wayy more damage than a charmed pet.
Wan't to talk about a dread commander + 3 healers pet launched on a grey group ?

Unless you have serious data, with players ready to RvR, don't share your "xp in frontier went wrong" experiences. It's an RvR area before all.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 8:30 PM by Quik
No, I am referring to leveling my 50 Ani. I was killed numerous times between 40-50 by minnies with the Grand Pookha and I never once saw them lose control of it. I would see the same Minnie run around and wipe all the grey groups as well. Yes it should be easy, but my point is, again he never lost control of his pet and his pet never attacked him.

I have been killed by someones granny (what a horrible way to die btw) and I don't know what lvl it was other then grape to me at the time. Again, that granny never once attacked the Minnie and he was using mez and shouts to dmg people at the same time.

If it was easy for the Minnie to lose control of a grape that would be one thing, but people seriously think it is fair for a Minnie to run around with the Grand pookha wiping groups of 1-4 because the pet alone is more than they can handle?

People always compare 1vs1 but with the Minnie it becomes 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 and that grape pet makes all the difference in winning.

My skald got a lucky mez in on a Minnie's pet once and I was able to kill him, every other time I want to say the resist rate was like 80% or something OP.

I have no issues with Minnies, I just really don't understand why people feel it is ok for them to be able to charm purple pets or red pets. How is it fair when the pet alone is enough to kill every other class solo and a lot of smaller groups again solo.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 8:52 PM by Dis
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 8:30 PM
No, I am referring to leveling my 50 Ani. I was killed numerous times between 40-50 by minnies with the Grand Pookha and I never once saw them lose control of it. I would see the same Minnie run around and wipe all the grey groups as well. Yes it should be easy, but my point is, again he never lost control of his pet and his pet never attacked him.

I have been killed by someones granny (what a horrible way to die btw) and I don't know what lvl it was other then grape to me at the time. Again, that granny never once attacked the Minnie and he was using mez and shouts to dmg people at the same time.

If it was easy for the Minnie to lose control of a grape that would be one thing, but people seriously think it is fair for a Minnie to run around with the Grand pookha wiping groups of 1-4 because the pet alone is more than they can handle?

People always compare 1vs1 but with the Minnie it becomes 1v2, 1v3, 1v4 and that grape pet makes all the difference in winning.

My skald got a lucky mez in on a Minnie's pet once and I was able to kill him, every other time I want to say the resist rate was like 80% or something OP.

I have no issues with Minnies, I just really don't understand why people feel it is ok for them to be able to charm purple pets or red pets. How is it fair when the pet alone is enough to kill every other class solo and a lot of smaller groups again solo.

dude play a minstrel yourself and complain again...stop the trashtalk allready, are you serious
Tue 14 Aug 2018 9:10 PM by Quik
Must be your favorite class? =)

And yes, as long as I see them run around with purple pets I will complain.

If I would EVER see them lose control it might be different, just never happens.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 10:56 PM by Cirath
The minstrel whos pet you mezzed was a noob. all he had to do was release it and recharm to break the mez. same thing if mincer gets mezzed. pet breaks it for him, recharm...
Tue 14 Aug 2018 11:20 PM by Geek
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 9:10 PM
Must be your favorite class? =)

And yes, as long as I see them run around with purple pets I will complain.

If I would EVER see them lose control it might be different, just never happens.

This whole thing sounds like butthurt. I've played a minstrel on Live and on here and get resisted all the time by the pet. I'd rather not play a minstrel because I like real stealthers, but in my experience a mins plays pretty much the same as it always has. You have no data or screens to back it up. Screen record it. Kha showed you plenty of data in his post, and yet you still complain.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 12:21 AM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 4:37 PM
One more thing to answer rubin request to nerf just like live did :
We are here to play old daoc balance, if you enjoy live rvr balance that much, play the live server.
At first I would really like to see your data claiming rr10 should have 50% resists, since on live it is caped at lvl59 i wonder were you pull that from.
Secondly I think we can agree that Phoenix tries to balance and is not bound to 1.65. I can not see the minstrel class beeing bad, just because you can only hold a high red pet.
It is still one of the strongest class in the game, even with that pet. Phoenix does good stuff in trying to balance things, I think this is one worthwhile looking at.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 1:15 AM by Varano
Minst should be able to charm dragon and run around speed 6 wreck the whole fckin realm 1 person!!!11!!!! So Fun!!!
If you don't like it play live!
I hate this Kha guy.. seriously
Wed 15 Aug 2018 1:31 AM by Quik
Geek wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 11:20 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 9:10 PM
Must be your favorite class? =)

And yes, as long as I see them run around with purple pets I will complain.

If I would EVER see them lose control it might be different, just never happens.

This whole thing sounds like butthurt. I've played a minstrel on Live and on here and get resisted all the time by the pet. I'd rather not play a minstrel because I like real stealthers, but in my experience a mins plays pretty much the same as it always has. You have no data or screens to back it up. Screen record it. Kha showed you plenty of data in his post, and yet you still complain.

Seriously? No screen shots to record it. Yes because I run around screen shotting everything.

I personally don't care whether people believe me or not.

The dev's can consider what I say or not and that is their choice.

The only people who don't think Minnies are a bit OP running around with a Grand Pookha are people playing the minnies.

I will voice my opinion on what I like and dislike, and this is certainly something I dislike. It isn't uncommon to see a Minnie running around outside DL/DC with a Grand Pookha or a Granny and if you watch them for any length of time you will see they are NOT losing control of their pet at any time.

If this is what the dev's want in the game then fine, leave it. If they think it is a bit OP they can look into it. It is their choice. I have reported dozens of bugs in the game and given numerous ideas. Some bugs have been fixed and some ideas have been implemented.

Just play the game without blinders and you will see the same thing.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 3:43 AM by daocgod
It is overpowered and theres a good chance the minstrels doing it macro, you are just promoting cheating by allowing it.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 3:50 PM by Horus
Grannies are like level 51...

Grand Pookahs...level 61-64

Grannies = ok

Grand Pookahs should be super high resist and turn on their minstrel often...

If this is not the case then it should be looked at...

I can already see the writing on the wall...there are going to be a ton of minstrels when server goes live... all running around with level 61-64 pets.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:21 PM by Dis
Horus wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 3:50 PM
Grannies are like level 51...

Grand Pookahs...level 61-64

Grannies = ok

Grand Pookahs should be super high resist and turn on their minstrel often...

If this is not the case then it should be looked at...

I can already see the writing on the wall...there are going to be a ton of minstrels when server goes live... all running around with level 61-64 pets.

the high level mobs do resist all the time, u can hold them by spamming the charm. so we should start nerving BD´s too because the pet overheal them and they have 2 instants for rupt beeing unkillable almost? u guys are talking about 1n1 situations where minstrel dont need to concentrate on 10 other things but the 1 enemy in front of them. like i said allready, create a minstrel on your own, start roaming at 50 and charm a purple pet, have fun doing it. the resists are freakin hell and u have to dump your charm buttons like hell.

stop the cry allready, a minstrel without a red/purple pet is useless in 8vs8, yellow pets are not worth the charm ability they have and instead of crying about minstrels charming purple pets, do some suggestions in how to make it better instead of cryin, i dont play a minstrel, but i play alb.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:23 PM by phixion
As I said in another thread, I think Minstrels should be limited to Orange con pets at most. Red and Purple con shouldn't be an option.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:43 PM by Kha
Varano wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 1:15 AM
If you don't like it play live!
I hate this Kha guy.. seriously

I love you too.
We have different opinions, and am glad we do. It shows there will always be players that don't know how the class works at all and could be surprised by it.
Having played this class from the start, and tested on many freeshards & live to get actual resist rates, i know how it should be.
And hate me if you wish, but it's far from what you WANT it to be.
Will always be haters of the class, or the players of this class. Even some people that don't know ANYTHING about it but will still complain.


I hate BDs personally but you don't see me whining on the forum against their insane power on solo/smallman, even with a level 64 pet i run away from them, most unbalanced class ever. But i deal with it, because if everyone start to spam forum about class they don't like or don't know how to beat, it will be a mess.

Cheers
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:45 PM by Geek
Kha wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:43 PM

I love you Kha
Wed 15 Aug 2018 5:50 PM by phixion
Come on guys, lets not turn every suggestion thread in to a war. If you don't like a suggestion, make your case and move on, no need for it to descend in to name calling.

We all have opinions on how things should be and this is the place to air them.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 8:26 PM by Rubin
So these ppl supporting purple pets would say that this is in line with other classes and need no adjustment?
I like that approach, you want to pwn. that is ok. still doesnt make the minstrel class out of line. Live lvl59 would be at least a cap in the right direction.
Minstrel would still be op so all you guys could sustain your ego.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:07 PM by Rabbitstew
I'll probably roll a Minstrel come live, and even I think the purple pet is too much. It requires a ridiculous amount of effort to keep track of the charm while fighting, sure, but with practice and proper tactics it can be done semi-reliably. The question is: is it balanced to be toting around a purple pet, along with everything else a Minstrel has? I don't think it is.

I'd much prefer to have a system similar to this:

Pets for Minstrel Charm (and Menty, I think)
Purple - impossible
Red - difficult (50% resist)
Oj - easy (10% resist)
Yellow and lower - auto (0% resist)

This makes it so keeping lower or same-level pets quite easy, but the concept of juggling songs and the charm is still present. Oj pets are very easy as well, with reds having a decent resist rate. Oj and red resist rates are lowered to make up for the inability to charm purples.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 1:23 AM by phixion
Rabbitstew wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:07 PM
I'd much prefer to have a system similar to this:

Pets for Minstrel Charm (and Menty, I think)
Purple - impossible
Red - difficult (50% resist)
Oj - easy (10% resist)
Yellow and lower - auto (0% resist)


Charm should have a recast timer so that you can’t just spam it, this would mean more risk, especially when carrying a Red con pet.

Either that or put a max level limit on mobs you can charm.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 2:33 AM by Niix
phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 1:23 AM
Rabbitstew wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:07 PM
I'd much prefer to have a system similar to this:

Pets for Minstrel Charm (and Menty, I think)
Purple - impossible
Red - difficult (50% resist)
Oj - easy (10% resist)
Yellow and lower - auto (0% resist)


Charm should have a recast timer so that you can’t just spam it, this would mean more risk, especially when carrying a Red con pet.

Either that or put a max level limit on mobs you can charm.

This is the most logical solution, makes no sense you can spam the key and guarantee a charm, never has and never will regardless of what the server does.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:37 AM by Sarerishor
I saw a Minstrel running around PKB just now with Draco Magnificens, a level 61 mob, and there wasn't a resist in sight. Maybe this level of charm was okay before we had Phoebus Harp and Instruments themselves actually needed to be twisted as well, but with one Instrument to rule them all, does this make sense anymore? Serious question.

Edit: I've been corrected below, instruments aren't required to charm.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:14 AM by relvinian
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 14 Aug 2018 1:31 PM
Uthgard had a custom cap where no matter how much you tried you just could not charm over a specific level until a specific rr / instrument skill. On live you could charm a level 60 pet with level 10, you would 100% die soon after but you could hold it for a time.

We are debating on what to do here, on the hand is the question if it's reasonable to allow these kind of pets, on the other hand is the argument "it has always been like this and is a very core part of the minstrel class", it's not something that can nor should just be done.

I think there might be a bug with charm currently where the resist animation won't play (star burst stuff) which would explain why many people think there are no resists whatsoever.

I would rather play on a custom balanced and fun server than on a rigid 1.65 unbalanced one.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:30 AM by Ceen
Sarerishor wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:37 AM
I saw a Minstrel running around PKB just now with Draco Magnificens, a level 61 mob, and there wasn't a resist in sight. Maybe this level of charm was okay before we had Phoebus Harp and Instruments themselves actually needed to be twisted as well, but with one Instrument to rule them all, does this make sense anymore? Serious question.
Minstrel charm does not require an instrument.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:09 PM by Kha
Ceen wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:30 AM
Sarerishor wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:37 AM
I saw a Minstrel running around PKB just now with Draco Magnificens, a level 61 mob, and there wasn't a resist in sight. Maybe this level of charm was okay before we had Phoebus Harp and Instruments themselves actually needed to be twisted as well, but with one Instrument to rule them all, does this make sense anymore? Serious question.
Minstrel charm does not require an instrument.

Minstrel aren't snake charmes indeed, no need to use the flute
Even with nothing in hands, you can actually hold charm.

Am not sure this mob should be charmable. Gotta triple check on this one.
However, the level of the mob is normal, small purple conc. Can be held with difficulty by a small RR, or a 75-50% or less by a high RR.

"Wasn't a resist in sight" again do you understand the class mechanic ? He can have many resist and not loose control in some instances.
The resist animation, you don't really want it, i have it as the controler, it's just a glowy white cloud on top the the pet.

I shared again, with some subtitles in case you missed the first i shared few pages ago.
https://imgur.com/jsrdpXj

Serious answer.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:59 PM by jelzinga_EU
I think it is important to consider that right now you guys mostly discussing semantics. I'm perfectly aware on how minstrel-charm works. The enemy does not see the resists of the Charm-pulse/ticks and because the minstrel is spamming the Charm-button/spell he/she thinks the resist-rate is awful.

The problem is that neither approaches are really constructive : From a neutral observer his perspective the minstrel is successfullly controlling a purple-con pet and for all intents and purposes the pet is doing his job (e.g. killing something). However, the neutral observer is also seeing that spam-charming the pet requires the minstrel to keep the target on the pet to spam the charm and being really annoying to play with as you constantly have to switch back to your pet to target it in order to keep it under control.

However, I feel that with macro'ing the thing what is gonna happen is that people who use macro's will be able to charm high-con mobs reasonably successfully and the "fair honest player" is not able to do it. Therefore it is important that if Phoenix decides to change something it will be something that does not ruin the class entirely for the "fair honest player" and still makes the class (borderline) OP on a macro'ing player.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 1:23 PM by Kha
About maccros, that's a serious concern.
Some players cheat, but they don't have to be minstrels to cheat,
Look at the Bans feed, did you see any minstrel maccro charm ? There will always be morons to cheat.

I heard they have ways to detect this, even if it takes time to be 100% sure.
Hopefully they don't use their system for the beta, so all the maccro cheaters (paladins & minstrels) will get banned in time : Level 50, loose your time, step in RvR, get banned.
If they blow all their ammo right now, then cheaters will try many other ways until release. Better surprise them.

I assume it's not that common, or we would see many bans at this topic. However, the legend is still here, i even have people commenting on my youtube vids (where combat logs can be seen) to accuse of maccro
"When you don't know how it's done, it must be magic.."
Thu 16 Aug 2018 2:08 PM by Rubin
Rabbitstew wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:07 PM
I'd much prefer to have a system similar to this:

Pets for Minstrel Charm (and Menty, I think)
Purple - impossible
Red - difficult (50% resist)
Oj - easy (10% resist)
Yellow and lower - auto (0% resist)

This makes it so keeping lower or same-level pets quite easy, but the concept of juggling songs and the charm is still present. Oj pets are very easy as well, with reds having a decent resist rate. Oj and red resist rates are lowered to make up for the inability to charm purples.

I also think this is a much more balanced approach and would fit well to Phoenix. Minstrels will still be out of balance anyway.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:26 PM by Kha
Rubin wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 2:08 PM
Rabbitstew wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 10:07 PM
I'd much prefer to have a system similar to this:

Pets for Minstrel Charm (and Menty, I think)
Purple - impossible
Red - difficult (50% resist)
Oj - easy (10% resist)
Yellow and lower - auto (0% resist)

This makes it so keeping lower or same-level pets quite easy, but the concept of juggling songs and the charm is still present. Oj pets are very easy as well, with reds having a decent resist rate. Oj and red resist rates are lowered to make up for the inability to charm purples.

I also think this is a much more balanced approach and would fit well to Phoenix. Minstrels will still be out of balance anyway.

That is just point blank dumb. This isn't anything close from a balanced proposition.
Also locking purple to impossible would be a mistake. Uthgard did the same, result : LFMinst, Any minst ? We can't go out ? No minstrel ? Help our group is ready but no minstrel at all. Ok we log off.
So yeah on many level (red too easy for low RR, purple impossible) it's a very bad call... Sorry...

Edit for RR0 50+11 minst it should be :
56 = 38ish%
57= 47ish%
58= 54ish%
59= 99%
60 = 99%
With your claim 50% resist is balanced, on a RR0 to RR2 minstrel on red, is a fail level 60 is red.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:29 PM by phixion
How many solo Minstrels are actively group Minstrels too though? I see them as two completely different things.

You see Minstrels who run with their Guild groups, and you see Minstrels who run out solo all the time. Not many that play both.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:32 PM by Kha
I do both actually. But yeah maybe not that many.
However ... what does it has to do with solo or group only ?
The dangerous nerf you all throw away without having datas will affect ALL kinds of minstrel gameplay, not just solo ...
See ?
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:38 PM by phixion
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:32 PM
I do both actually. But yeah maybe not that many.
However ... what does it has to do with solo or group only ?
The dangerous nerf you all throw away without having datas will affect ALL kinds of minstrel gameplay, not just solo ...
See ?


And I'm okay with that. I believe that under no circumstances should a Minstrel, solo or grouped, be allowed to carry a purple pet. It's unreasonable in either scenario.

Just my opinion though.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:49 PM by Kha
You should have been in the DAoC developers team for 16 out of 19 years then
Btw, i'll stop defending now, obviously 2 out of 3 realms have a win in this wrong claims.
Even shared you the datas, so you know how it should be.

Whine as much as you want guys, we even have a 15 year old postcount collector that parody this :

Minstrel getting ridiculous. They got so much abilitys its not fair to other realms.

First, they got dual wield polearm, this is ridiculous they can hold 2 of strongest weapons in the game! they can also swing with both 1.2 speed weapon for 600 damage every swing unstyled!!! with their instant 12 second stun using dual wield position style they hit for 1000 with each weap, killing every player in 1 hit unless BoF!!!

They also got mastery of stealth 7 because when I play my shadowblade with 50+16 stealth and mastery of stealth 5 the minstrel always find me and use his weapons to kill me and his 500 damage each instant DD with 6 sec reuse timer that always hit me and almost always crit for 200 extra dmg!!!

and if i can run he use aoe mezz and aoe root to stop me and he run down to me and use his polearm and DDs to kill me before I can even make one swing on him and he laugh on my corpse.

but if you think this isnt bad enough the staff isnt watching game becaus minstrel log in and charm purple pet lvl 70+ and they spam charm button and charm pet and go to a keep and he climbs up wall and kill everyone inside with aoe mezz and aoe root and aoe charm and use his purple pet to take door down and the pet solo my whole group while he attack lord for massive big damages and when the door down the sorcerer runs inside and uses more magics and kills everyone and then they take relics and run out and kill all the mids and take keep and then they go DF and kill all the mids in DF and then they take fg minstrels down and kill legion with just 1 group of minstrels with all purple pets and dual wield polearms and use big massive DD spell that all hit legion at once for big damage.

and when minstrels in danger they use SoS and run faster than red speed from skald and use their drum song and play endurance song and run away fast and get away and when you don't look they run back and kill you in very fast times and they always kill all

I seen a minstrel solo Zubasa group once too

If you guys keep going without data supported proposal, you will just be one of the targeted in this 15 years old parody
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:05 PM by Niix
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:49 PM
You should have been in the DAoC developers team for 16 out of 19 years then
Btw, i'll stop defending now, obviously 2 out of 3 realms have a win in this wrong claims.
Even shared you the datas, so you know how it should be.

Whine as much as you want guys, we even have a 15 year old postcount collector that parody this :

Minstrel getting ridiculous. They got so much abilitys its not fair to other realms.

First, they got dual wield polearm, this is ridiculous they can hold 2 of strongest weapons in the game! they can also swing with both 1.2 speed weapon for 600 damage every swing unstyled!!! with their instant 12 second stun using dual wield position style they hit for 1000 with each weap, killing every player in 1 hit unless BoF!!!

They also got mastery of stealth 7 because when I play my shadowblade with 50+16 stealth and mastery of stealth 5 the minstrel always find me and use his weapons to kill me and his 500 damage each instant DD with 6 sec reuse timer that always hit me and almost always crit for 200 extra dmg!!!

and if i can run he use aoe mezz and aoe root to stop me and he run down to me and use his polearm and DDs to kill me before I can even make one swing on him and he laugh on my corpse.

but if you think this isnt bad enough the staff isnt watching game becaus minstrel log in and charm purple pet lvl 70+ and they spam charm button and charm pet and go to a keep and he climbs up wall and kill everyone inside with aoe mezz and aoe root and aoe charm and use his purple pet to take door down and the pet solo my whole group while he attack lord for massive big damages and when the door down the sorcerer runs inside and uses more magics and kills everyone and then they take relics and run out and kill all the mids and take keep and then they go DF and kill all the mids in DF and then they take fg minstrels down and kill legion with just 1 group of minstrels with all purple pets and dual wield polearms and use big massive DD spell that all hit legion at once for big damage.

and when minstrels in danger they use SoS and run faster than red speed from skald and use their drum song and play endurance song and run away fast and get away and when you don't look they run back and kill you in very fast times and they always kill all

I seen a minstrel solo Zubasa group once too

If you guys keep going without data supported proposal, you will just be one of the targeted in this 15 years old parody

90% resist rate means nothing if you can press a key down and hit 20 attempts at charm per second.

I honestly can’t believe you honestly think purple pets is a fair for this game... group or solo.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:08 PM by phixion
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:49 PM
Even shared you the datas, so you know how it should be.


It's not that I disagree with your data, I just don't think Minstrels should be able to hold a Purple con pet. Charm should have a recast timer or there should be a cap on Orange or Red maximum.

There have been plenty common sense and QoL changes here, this isn't strict 1.65. You can't pick and choose what was in the game versus what wasn't in the game during 1.65 to support an argument on whether something is balanced or not. Fact is a lot of stuff in 1.65 was downright unbalanced and unfair.

These forums are the perfect place to discuss such things, the trend here seems to be that if you discuss balance changes you are attacking a class, that sort of mindset needs to be left at the door and overall game balance should be considered. It's sad that certain users here are now seen as "whiners" for putting across valid arguments.

I hope the staff here can be a little more neutral than some members here when looking at balancing such things.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:10 PM by Rabbitstew
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:26 PM
That is just point blank dumb. This isn't anything close from a balanced proposition.
Also locking purple to impossible would be a mistake. Uthgard did the same, result : LFMinst, Any minst ? We can't go out ? No minstrel ? Help our group is ready but no minstrel at all. Ok we log off.
So yeah on many level (red too easy for low RR, purple impossible) it's a very bad call... Sorry...

Are you saying that Minstrels will become extinct after going from a Purple pet to a Red pet? The whole reason people play them is to keep around such a powerful pet?

I thought it was more of the whole package and not that one aspect, but I may be wrong. Maybe a poll should be done to see if this resulting change would make Minstrels so unpalatable, similar to the Paladin.

And yes, I have no data to back up my ideas, nor do I want any. Data about the past or "how it's supposed to be" is useless because here we are talking about ideas of change. Change being the key word. Many aspects of the game have been changed already, even class changes. Clearly this server isn't aiming to be 100% authentic to its patch balance, so "this is how it's supposed to be" isn't a good argument.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 5:39 PM by Kralin
Purple pets for minstrels are stupid on this server. Too easy for the minstrel players now to handle the pet while doing other things. Especially with the possibility of macros. That's why nearly every minstrel is charming the same pets.

If I see a minstrel with a purple pet, I want to see it turn on the minstrel (or their Cleric) often and hurt them for nearly as much damage as they are able to dish out to enemies. Despite what Kha says and proves from his chat logs, he wants to keep using purple pets and will make all efforts to claim everyone else is just saying "oh no I died in rvr".

I think it's logical for the devs to address this in some way. Either cap the charmable level or make it really punishing to the Minstrel to attempt to keep the pet. As it is now, it's not hard to keep it charmed.
Thu 16 Aug 2018 8:05 PM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:26 PM
That is just point blank dumb. This isn't anything close from a balanced proposition.
Uthgard did the same, result : LFMinst, Any minst ? We can't go out ? No minstrel ? Help our group is ready but no minstrel at all. Ok we log off.
Any more arguments than that my point is dump?
How on earth can you think it is balanced to have a purple pet and claim that noone plays a minstrel cause it is limited to red? Did not hear from live that all minstrels stopped after they balanced it.
On Uthgard noone wanted to level a minstrel cause it was a pain in the ass to level without autotrain a class that is not needed in a PvE group, and hence less minstrels. There were still plenty around.
Noone would stop playing a minstrel cause they can not charm a purple pet, but a red instead.
You are obviously too biased for this discussion :X
Thu 16 Aug 2018 10:22 PM by Kha
Rubin wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 8:05 PM
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:26 PM
That is just point blank dumb. This isn't anything close from a balanced proposition.
Uthgard did the same, result : LFMinst, Any minst ? We can't go out ? No minstrel ? Help our group is ready but no minstrel at all. Ok we log off.
Any more arguments than that my point is dump?
How on earth can you think it is balanced to have a purple pet and claim that noone plays a minstrel cause it is limited to red? Did not hear from live that all minstrels stopped after they balanced it.
On Uthgard noone wanted to level a minstrel cause it was a pain in the ass to level without autotrain a class that is not needed in a PvE group, and hence less minstrels. There were still plenty around.
Noone would stop playing a minstrel cause they can not charm a purple pet, but a red instead.
You are obviously too biased for this discussion :X

I mean you are aswell, you are one of the 12ish active forum member asking for this even when data show you wrong, and even better, 66% of the players should be with you, it's actually 80-90% because alb don't really care about strels (unless they are looking for one to go RvR).
At the end, it's just 12 whiners vs 3 minstrels on this very thread... If we look at the parody 11 of the 12 whinners fit the 16 years old arguments ... The proportionality is for you to win, if staff somehow end up listening to this.
But then what is next step ? BD with 2 pet ? Mentalist with caped blue pet like chanter ? Skald with 1h weapon only ? Savage with no quads ? Speed 6 for all ? Cap 300 damage on casters nuke (not fun to be oneshoted by a 3 caster assist right ?) And then what else ? Let's make a whinner culte !!!
Fri 17 Aug 2018 6:33 AM by Isavyr
I play minstrel and think purple pets are retarded. The data is irrelevant to whether it's balanced, only whether it was like this in the past.

And you're probably right--it was like this in the past--but that doesn't mean it should ever have been, or that today it makes sense.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 6:40 AM by Kha
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 6:33 AM
I play minstrel and think purple pets are retarded. The data is irrelevant to whether it's balanced, only whether it was like this in the past.

And you're probably right--it was like this in the past--but that doesn't mean it should ever have been, or that today it makes sense.

what data are you speaking about, that is very interesting !!!
We have very few datas overall, so you claim that datas are irrelevant can be the break trhoug !!!!!!!!!!!!!! What are you talking about ???
Please show us datas against the feature, or show us videos of your minstrel abusing any kind of bugs. We finally have a beta tester here, show us.

Is multi forum account banable ? I mean they are actually 7 out of 12, you realiaze that ?
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:50 AM by Rubin
Did you read his post, or you just insta rage against everything brought up here?
Noone is arguing that it is not live like that minstrels could hold a purple pet for a while. The question is, is that balanced? Yes or no?
Everyone who is not biased will see that a purple pet is not in line with other classes by far. Mythic also realised that and caped the charm at lvl59, which still makes the minstrel an insanly OP class.
Phoenix is not bound to 1.65 rule set and deviates from it if it offers a better and more balanced game play. That is why they should consider caping the minstrel charm at 59 at least. I did never see an Eldritch crying as much as you do, and NS nerf is far more controversial than stripping a PURPLE pet from a class.
Still hard to believe that you can not see the balance issue here. My impression is you have your personal agenda that hinders you to see what is good for the server.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:08 PM by heardstheword
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:50 AM
NS nerf

Nearsight or nightshade?

What nerf?
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:49 PM by Kha
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:08 PM
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:50 AM
NS nerf

Nearsight or nightshade?

What nerf?

Once done with minstrel, his whinner club will go hard on Nightshade ! It's just the beginning !
Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:47 PM by Varano
Look at this guy.. says everyone else is "whining" yet he just drones on about his own prerogatives and doesn't consider anyone else's.
Pretty much everyone is against this, all you have to do is press the attack command and run away and you win, how is this fair?
Literally an "I win button"
Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:48 PM by Rabbitstew
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:49 PM
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:08 PM
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:50 AM
NS nerf

Nearsight or nightshade?

What nerf?

Once done with minstrel, his whinner club will go hard on Nightshade ! It's just the beginning !

It seems as though Kha likes to use the "slippery slope" fallacy, which is a shame, as it doesn't add much to the conversation besides deflection. Also an obsession with "Data" which is not even the topic currently being discussed.

[ To be clear, I will be playing Albion, and one of my mains will be a Minstrel. I have a stake in this, and am still advocating for change to Minstrel pet. I believe it to be good for balance and the overall health of the server ]
Fri 17 Aug 2018 3:23 PM by Rubin
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:08 PM
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:50 AM
NS nerf
Nearsight or nightshade?
What nerf?
Trying to derail the topic with fake news like quoting habits cause there are no logical arguments for keeping purple pets?
Was pretty clear what I ment if you read the full sentence.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 3:24 PM by phixion
Some people will just not accept any kind of balance change to the class they plan to play, they'll defend it to the hilt.

I don't see the big deal in capping the pet to level 59, it's still crazy OP as a damage add, interrupter or heal pet - You can basically kite any class to death apart from maybe a Bonedancer?
Fri 17 Aug 2018 3:42 PM by heardstheword
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 3:23 PM
Trying to derail the topic with fake news like quoting habits cause there are no logical arguments for keeping purple pets?
Was pretty clear what I ment if you read the full sentence.

I did read it. It didn't answer my question, hence why I asked. I never saw a nearsight nerf, and I am interested in hearing what it is. You can't get upset when I address something that you brought up yourself.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 5:07 PM by Bumbles
there are reasons that most 'solo" players are on minstrels and are already RR6+
Sat 18 Aug 2018 3:29 AM by ShutenGlooten
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 4:49 PM
You should have been in the DAoC developers team for 16 out of 19 years then
Btw, i'll stop defending now, obviously 2 out of 3 realms have a win in this wrong claims.
Even shared you the datas, so you know how it should be.

Whine as much as you want guys, we even have a 15 year old postcount collector that parody this :

Minstrel getting ridiculous. They got so much abilitys its not fair to other realms.

First, they got dual wield polearm, this is ridiculous they can hold 2 of strongest weapons in the game! they can also swing with both 1.2 speed weapon for 600 damage every swing unstyled!!! with their instant 12 second stun using dual wield position style they hit for 1000 with each weap, killing every player in 1 hit unless BoF!!!

They also got mastery of stealth 7 because when I play my shadowblade with 50+16 stealth and mastery of stealth 5 the minstrel always find me and use his weapons to kill me and his 500 damage each instant DD with 6 sec reuse timer that always hit me and almost always crit for 200 extra dmg!!!

and if i can run he use aoe mezz and aoe root to stop me and he run down to me and use his polearm and DDs to kill me before I can even make one swing on him and he laugh on my corpse.

but if you think this isnt bad enough the staff isnt watching game becaus minstrel log in and charm purple pet lvl 70+ and they spam charm button and charm pet and go to a keep and he climbs up wall and kill everyone inside with aoe mezz and aoe root and aoe charm and use his purple pet to take door down and the pet solo my whole group while he attack lord for massive big damages and when the door down the sorcerer runs inside and uses more magics and kills everyone and then they take relics and run out and kill all the mids and take keep and then they go DF and kill all the mids in DF and then they take fg minstrels down and kill legion with just 1 group of minstrels with all purple pets and dual wield polearms and use big massive DD spell that all hit legion at once for big damage.

and when minstrels in danger they use SoS and run faster than red speed from skald and use their drum song and play endurance song and run away fast and get away and when you don't look they run back and kill you in very fast times and they always kill all

I seen a minstrel solo Zubasa group once too

If you guys keep going without data supported proposal, you will just be one of the targeted in this 15 years old parody

Oh man, I haven't laughed that hard over a forum post in a lonnng time lmao.
Sat 18 Aug 2018 7:03 PM by Zansobar
I really hope once the Devs get the game bugs fixed they turn their focus on improving the game via more (det for hybrids, adjustments to spec cost for spells for SMs, etc) class balancing. Minstrels are one of those classes that should be at the top of their list for a plethora of nerfs to bring them back down to earth.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:58 PM by reptar
Kha's arguments here are hilariously bad.

- I think having a single class that can charm purple pets is a bad idea!

- WHERE'S THE HARD DATA, BOY

- I'm just saying it's probably not a great idea to have a single class holding a purple pet. I mean we all know they can charm red and hold it decently but purple just seems like a step too far.

- WITHOUT YOUR HARD DATA YOU'RE GOING TO TOTALLY RUIN MINSTRELS. RED PETS? RED PETS? ARE YOU TRYING TO BREAK MINSTRELS ENTIRELY?

- This doesn't seem like a data problem. It seems like a gameplay problem. Like I get that there were times on live where this was possible but for the 1.65 ruleset it doesn't really seem to fit

- YOU PROBABLY THINK MINSTRELS CARRY POLEARMS AND FLY
Mon 20 Aug 2018 3:33 PM by Niix
Red pets are stupid too, minstrels would still be in every alb 8 man and quality solo class with yellow pets....
Mon 20 Aug 2018 5:17 PM by Magesty
The patch today (8/20) includes a note about pulse charm fixes. Anyone know what this change entails?

Perhaps it could serve as a flood gate for the massive amount of tears in this thread.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 5:18 PM by Kha
Yeah i think you are right, we should delete the instrument line from minstrel. Would gain alot of time.
No more instant OP dd, no more instant charm op pet, no more instant stun, no more "mezz on the fly can't be amnesia" OP moves.

Now we have a balance minstrel ! Very good thinking.
Minstrel will now be able to compete with the other most retarded class on this game because of this new balance.

His awesome melee dps will be able to compete against that "25 Skilled shrooms in the tree /sit and instant kill people without doing sh*t"
His awesome blocking skills will help him win against that "cast 4 Skilled pet onces, then spam 1 instant lifetap touch and kill anyone 1v1"
His lack of a decent pet will make him totally compete with those 350 strengh 2Hands weapon skald cousins.
He still has stealth, will be very easy to hide against those speed 6 horses ennemies.

We are now set, no more reason to cry like many of you did for 18 years already.

Should make a new club to ask nerf on NS now ? Or Bd ? Or animist ? Scout ?
What is our next target to tell DEVs how we think DAoC should have been balanced for the past 18 years ?

Mon 20 Aug 2018 7:14 PM by Niix
I think you're a little misguided and lost, you're basically making the argument the only reason people put mistrels in groups or that they are good solo class is because of red/purple pets.

This is factually ridiculous comment to make, they are one of the best back line interrupters in the game if not the best. Add that to the fact they have mezz immunity with their pets and arguably (tho not much of an argument I don't think) the most OP RA in the game. Please get a reality check before making further invaluable comments.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 7:27 PM by Kha
Niix wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 7:14 PM
I think you're a little misguided and lost, you're basically making the argument the only reason people put mistrels in groups or that they are good solo class is because of red/purple pets.

This is factually ridiculous comment to make, they are one of the best back line interrupters in the game if not the best. Add that to the fact they have mezz immunity with their pets and arguably (tho not much of an argument I don't think) the most OP RA in the game. Please get a reality check before making further invaluable comments.

Yeah better laugh about it rather than cry with you guys.
After all, am doing the invaluable comment ? Did you notice so far we have 10-12 people whinning about a class than 90% of them don't know anything about
ANNNNNNND :None of the complaints have any data or proper test to support claims ? It just sounds like a childish "he is unfair, please nerf or delete"

So yeah, i go for the fun answers, because i fell all good, i shared proper test and datas to staff that shows Phoenix charms are kinda too easy, and that whinners clubs claims are wrong. They may or may not use the tests, they may go for something else entirely, but alteast, i did something constructive, not just a "it's too good, no it's not" forum 18 years old endless loop.

I have no popcorn today, but i swear, if somehow someday one of the complainers show even the start of a proper test, i'll do real popcorn, and then we can start to talk serious.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 7:32 PM by Niix
No one is whining here, they are all giving their opinion on a topic within the game.

If you think the opposite that's fine, but you're also not backing up any of your ideas with 'proof' so its just talk. You need to respect other peoples opinions even if they are in disagreement, we are all here wanting a better game.

If you think minstrels having red/purple pets is a requirement for the game then voice your opinion without tearing people down. I for one disagree and don't think a minstrel needs a red/purple pet while in a group, he has plenty of tools to succeed and there is zero need for him to have it for soloing, minstrels have always done well in solo environments even without pets.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 8:11 PM by reptar
I have submitted HARD DATA to the devs that explains why minstrels shouldn't have purple pets.

My research is a little long but I think I can post it here:
Minstrels can charm purple pets and hold them for a period of time. I don't think they should be able to. Thank you for reading my PROPER HARD DATA.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 9:06 PM by Kha
reptar wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 8:11 PM
I have submitted HARD DATA to the devs that explains why minstrels shouldn't have purple pets.

My research is a little long but I think I can post it here:
Minstrels can charm purple pets and hold them for a period of time. I don't think they should be able to. Thank you for reading my PROPER HARD DATA.

I am impressed.
That sounds like a lot of testing and hours of comparaison with other pet class "pet dps".
I can't compete with such a wonderful graph.

I guess our only call is to delete all pets (summoned/charmed) from the game. I'll join the club now, your valuable input convinced me.
Mon 20 Aug 2018 10:41 PM by Rubin
All I see here is you dodging the general question.
Are minstrels too strong, or in line with other classes if holding a purple pet?

For the majority the answer is very simple. Yes they are out of line with purple pets and should be balanced by adjusting the charmable pet level.

As said many times before, your data is irrelevant to answer this question. This is about balancing mistakes Mythic adjusted some patches later.

The minstrel will still be over powered, that makes your point of view kind of embarrassing :X
Tue 21 Aug 2018 1:15 AM by reptar
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man."
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:19 AM by Kha


You guys are collectors !
Can't remember any posts of that kind 18 years ago, we have some very good ones, but maybe not that good.
I don't have to prove anything, i already shared proofs to the staff.
What i see right now is clueless players questionning the whole 18 years old pet balance, without even the start of a test.
Let's start gentle, compare Animist 25 pets dps, to a level 61 (whatever the name) charmed pet. Then we'll scale down from that point to the weaker pets.
Btw i don't like Nearsight, it's unfair and unbalanced, we should make a club to reduce range to 700, and casting time to 3.0 sec. Let's just randomly throw fun ideas.

So yeah... You got me again, go ahead, let's ban purple pets.
But then, let's balance properly :
WILD MINIONS for minstrel (you'll cry even more when that orange frost stallion 3shot you with procs and critical hits)
RR5 Instant PBAE MEZZ for minstrel (your'll cry ALOT more in whatever situation)

Let's do a NF balance, you convinced me. Apply Ywain nerf right now, but then apply ywain balance right now.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:36 AM by faliv
When playing an op class on a freeshard is your lifegoal, and you try to defend it by all costs. Quality thread!
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:40 AM by Kha
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:36 AM
When playing an op class on a freeshard is your lifegoal, and you try to defend it by all costs. Quality thread!

Oh come on, we can't have fun ?
I bring a lot of nothing to their nothing.

It's the funniest thread around until locked.
Sorry you don't enjoy it
Tue 21 Aug 2018 11:37 AM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:40 AM
faliv wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 8:36 AM
When playing an op class on a freeshard is your lifegoal, and you try to defend it by all costs. Quality thread!

Oh come on, we can't have fun ?
I bring a lot of nothing to their nothing.

It's the funniest thread around until locked.
Sorry you don't enjoy it

We already know that your intention in this thread is derailing and getting it closed. Thanks for openly admitting it.
Maybe time to admit that your interest is not a balanced server either, but to play an out of balance class at all costs.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:23 PM by Kha
Oh no, i could risk forum ban if i was doing such a thing.

Just having as much fun as i can until they decide this thread is just like the pointless 18years old endless whinning loop that real DAoC had.

PS : Still waiting for one of you to provide proper pet dps comparaison, or any kind of serious test. Then we can start to talk seriously, and i won't troll anymore.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:40 PM by heardstheword
The 'ol "throw a tantrum to prove a point" trick. Works every time and demonstrates proper emotional maturity.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:10 PM by Niix
Kha wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:23 PM
Oh no, i could risk forum ban if i was doing such a thing.

Just having as much fun as i can until they decide this thread is just like the pointless 18years old endless whinning loop that real DAoC had.

PS : Still waiting for one of you to provide proper pet dps comparaison, or any kind of serious test. Then we can start to talk seriously, and i won't troll anymore.

I think everyone knows how hard purple mobs hit for, what data do you really need here? not many classes can solo a purple mob let alone one with a pet minstrel insta stunning/dd'ing etc.

I actually think you're completely trolling at this point.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:30 PM by Kha
Niix wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:10 PM
Kha wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:23 PM
Oh no, i could risk forum ban if i was doing such a thing.

Just having as much fun as i can until they decide this thread is just like the pointless 18years old endless whinning loop that real DAoC had.

PS : Still waiting for one of you to provide proper pet dps comparaison, or any kind of serious test. Then we can start to talk seriously, and i won't troll anymore.

I think everyone knows how hard purple mobs hit for, what data do you really need here? not many classes can solo a purple mob let alone one with a pet minstrel insta stunning/dd'ing etc.

I actually think you're completely trolling at this point.

Well i don't need anything, you do.
Did tests with Gruenes_Schaf already, during half an hour. Wont share datas though, or screenshot, or his reactions to test, that's their data not mine.
It was far from animist or BD dps, but still decent (untill it goes up to 65 pet, which is impossible to control anyway).
Anything else ? Or will we just whinne more ?
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:12 PM by Quik
It isn't just the DPS. You need to consider all the data and stop picking and choosing.

Lvl 61 pet may not be as much DPS as an Ani (stupid comparison anyway since Ani pets shouldn't be counted), or as much DPS as a BD pet (hard to believe) but the durability on the lvl 61 pet I am betting FAR exceeds ANY other pet in the game without buffs.

My point is, a Minstrel is NOT a pet class, it is a music class. Why should a music class have the most powerful single pet in the game? Shouldn't that be cabby or SM or Enchie?

The Minstrel pet can cause more havoc than 2 of the other pet classes combined.

The pet classes should have the single most powerful pets in the game, not a stealthing/music class.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:25 PM by Kha
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:12 PM
My point is, a Minstrel is NOT a pet class, it is a music class. Why should a music class have the most powerful single pet in the game?

Healers are a healer class, why should they have mezz, or demezz, or amnesia or even celerity ?
Paladins are the ones who buff the realm with cantics after all... Give them celerity.

Sorcerer, is a mezz/pom class, why should they have pets ?

Theurgist, they have infinite pet, it's a damage deal class with their OP air line ... wtf ...

Skalds are a tank class, why should they have speed ?

Animist love natures why should they do slave hundreds of shrooms ? That makes no sens ...

We still have dozens of those clueless dumb statements,but still ...
Was fun, thanks.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:40 PM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:25 PM
Why do you dodge the question.do you think minstrel is out of line with purple pets,yes or no?
All your comparison are so wrong it is hard to understand where you always pull that from.
But thanks for keeping this thread bumped.
Pretty sure Devs can figure the arguments made by the vast majority and put it against a biased player that just wants to dominate with an unbalanced class.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:47 PM by Aincrad
Yea i think its dumb that a purple pet can be charmed. Would make any class that could do this unbalanced. Add the best RA in the game (imo) to the same class makes it even more unbalanced. I think this is something that should be discussed by the devs
Tue 21 Aug 2018 11:21 PM by relvinian
There are probably two groups of thought on this:

1. Minstrels who think its fine and want to keep it.
2. Everyone else, including minstrels with a sense of fair play.
Tue 21 Aug 2018 11:57 PM by reptar
It's really not a question at all. It's literally one guy in here lying about HARD DATA.

It's a no brainer for Phoenix staff - they won't keep a population here if minstrels have purple pets. That says way too much about their ability to make design decisions if that remains. I'm not worried about it, it'll be gone soon despite Kha's trolling.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:44 AM by Cirath
As a nightshade since 2001 I've fought minstrels a lot. I've beaten minstrels a lot. It can be done. Are purple pets OP? Yes, obviously. Honestly, you could remove the ability to charm entirely from minstrels and they would still have the upper hand on any other solo class due to stealth, multiple forms of CC, speed 6, instant dd's, incredibly strong RA's, etc. It takes 3 classes minimum in the other two realms to equal the utility of a single minstrel. That said, do I want them nerfed? Meh, I have found ways to kill them, but as an assassin I can pick and choose my moments to engage. They are a challenging hunt. I defer to the rest of the community on the minstrel question.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 6:46 AM by Falken
Red pet is bad enough, purple is just overkill. It is kind of laughable that you tried to compare minstrel pet to that of animist shrooms, as if they are in any way the same... Last I checked any and all pets controlled by pet classes could actually be CC'd and it would stick (outside SM no pet classes can demez their own pet). The actual pet classes of this game don't even get yellow con pets @ 50, but you want to justify having a CC immune purple pet and call it balanced by purely saying that dps is not as good as a stack of animist shrooms? lol... Talk about biased rationalization. Try looking at the whole picture and not just a snapshot.

Higher level pet than anybody else in game can hold and CC immune (not to mention the time people waste actually trying to CC it to only have it be released, CC gone and recharmed within seconds). Incase minstrels didn't already have a ridiculous toolkit you clearly need a purple CC immune pet on top of it.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 7:46 AM by Joc
Minstrels ARE pet classes. Defined by the fact they can charm pets. If anything I would say the are one of the primary pet classes.

I agree the purple con pet seems a bit much, but I dont see an issue with red con pets. I dont even play alb here
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:28 AM by Druth
Leveling up minstrel, and I feel it's wrong that I can take a purp pet and basically spam charm while it kills mobs for me.

It should have a 5 sec recast, which would completely shut down purple charming, unless you are very high RR.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 1:27 PM by hallibel
you guys are arguing about the dps difference between a red and a purple pet, but this is not really the main point. i will only talk about the balance in an 8 man, because even without any pet minstrel can barely be killed 1v1 anyway if he is playing well.

a minstrel is only strong in a full group with his pet alive. kill the pet, cc the minstrel and hes done (can purge or sos obviously but you got the point) and the main problem about having a purple pet is not the dps (even tho it is super high) but the pet being just way too hard to kill. try nuking down a red pet, and try nuking down a purple pet (not even talking about melee damage ...) this is the difference between a strong pet (red) and an OP pet (purple).

if anything make it so minstrel needs to be rr10+ to be able to charm purple pets, but not before that
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:29 PM by Zansobar
Can a Mentalist get the same level of pet with his charm as a Minstrel? Is this a problem with charm or just the Minstrel?
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:37 PM by heardstheword
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:29 PM
Can a Mentalist get the same level of pet with his charm as a Minstrel? Is this a problem with charm or just the Minstrel?

Minstrel can get the highest level pet because it's a spell charm as opposed to a cast-able charm. Minstrel can cancel and recast their charm at least once a second or faster if your fingers are quick. This lets them "negate" resists as they just need the charm song to land once every 8(?) seconds to not break charm, but that's not an issue if you're canceling-recasting the charm 10-20 times in those 8 seconds. Even with a 90% resist chance, it should statistically land once within that time.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:35 PM by Niix
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:37 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:29 PM
Can a Mentalist get the same level of pet with his charm as a Minstrel? Is this a problem with charm or just the Minstrel?

Minstrel can get the highest level pet because it's a spell charm as opposed to a cast-able charm. Minstrel can cancel and recast their charm at least once a second or faster if your fingers are quick. This lets them "negate" resists as they just need the charm song to land once every 8(?) seconds to not break charm, but that's not an issue if you're canceling-recasting the charm 10-20 times in those 8 seconds. Even with a 90% resist chance, it should statistically land once within that time.

eh try just holding down the charm button, see how many times you can cast and recast... once it doesn't resist you have 8 seconds of pet charm.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:38 PM by Zansobar
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:37 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 3:29 PM
Can a Mentalist get the same level of pet with his charm as a Minstrel? Is this a problem with charm or just the Minstrel?

Minstrel can get the highest level pet because it's a spell charm as opposed to a cast-able charm. Minstrel can cancel and recast their charm at least once a second or faster if your fingers are quick. This lets them "negate" resists as they just need the charm song to land once every 8(?) seconds to not break charm, but that's not an issue if you're canceling-recasting the charm 10-20 times in those 8 seconds. Even with a 90% resist chance, it should statistically land once within that time.

Why isn't the Minstrel charm song a pulse charm like the Mentalist charm? I just don't understand why this one class (Minstrel) is allowed to have a charm that is so out of whack compared to Sorc, Mentalist, Hunter, and did I forget any other class that can charm NPCs? Honestly I do not know why charms for all classes are not capped at level 50 mobs anyway like they are on some of the above mentioned charm classes.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:45 PM by Niix
Hunters don't get pet charm, they get their own pet.

Sorcerer - Casted permanent pet charm
- (Think your level max or lower)
Mentalist - Casted pet charm - requires multiple resists in a row to lose control but you can't spam it
- Due to mechanics its unlikely to maintain higher than OJ
Minstrel - Casted instant pet charm - spam-able
- Due to mechanics can spam hold up to low purples
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:55 PM by heardstheword
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:38 PM
Why isn't the Minstrel charm song a pulse charm like the Mentalist charm? I just don't understand why this one class (Minstrel) is allowed to have a charm that is so out of whack compared to Sorc, Mentalist, Hunter, and did I forget any other class that can charm NPCs? Honestly I do not know why charms for all classes are not capped at level 50 mobs anyway like they are on some of the above mentioned charm classes.

It is a pulse charm, but the instant-cast aspect of it is what gives them the advantage.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:38 PM by Zansobar
Niix wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:45 PM
Hunters don't get pet charm, they get their own pet.

Sorcerer - Casted permanent pet charm
- (Think your level max or lower)
Mentalist - Casted pet charm - requires multiple resists in a row to lose control but you can't spam it
- Due to mechanics its unlikely to maintain higher than OJ
Minstrel - Casted instant pet charm - spam-able
- Due to mechanics can spam hold up to low purples

Hunters can charm insects.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:43 PM by Throck
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:38 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:45 PM
Hunters don't get pet charm, they get their own pet.

Sorcerer - Casted permanent pet charm
- (Think your level max or lower)
Mentalist - Casted pet charm - requires multiple resists in a row to lose control but you can't spam it
- Due to mechanics its unlikely to maintain higher than OJ
Minstrel - Casted instant pet charm - spam-able
- Due to mechanics can spam hold up to low purples

Hunters can charm insects.

Hunters can charm animals and insects.
Wed 22 Aug 2018 9:37 PM by Niix
Throck wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:43 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:38 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:45 PM
Hunters don't get pet charm, they get their own pet.

Sorcerer - Casted permanent pet charm
- (Think your level max or lower)
Mentalist - Casted pet charm - requires multiple resists in a row to lose control but you can't spam it
- Due to mechanics its unlikely to maintain higher than OJ
Minstrel - Casted instant pet charm - spam-able
- Due to mechanics can spam hold up to low purples

Hunters can charm insects.

Hunters can charm animals and insects.

Can they really? literally never seen one do it over their wolf sooooo ....

Maybe that's a solution, only allow minstrels to charm granny's
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:01 AM by ShutenGlooten
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:28 AM
Leveling up minstrel, and I feel it's wrong that I can take a purp pet and basically spam charm while it kills mobs for me.

It should have a 5 sec recast, which would completely shut down purple charming, unless you are very high RR.

Nope. that would be a very poor bandaid. That would even screw with charming OJs at times due to unlucky resists.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:34 AM by Niix
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:01 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:28 AM
Leveling up minstrel, and I feel it's wrong that I can take a purp pet and basically spam charm while it kills mobs for me.

It should have a 5 sec recast, which would completely shut down purple charming, unless you are very high RR.

Nope. that would be a very poor bandaid. That would even screw with charming OJs at times due to unlucky resists.

Soooooooo like a mentalist? at least low RR mentalist
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:45 AM by ShutenGlooten
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:34 AM
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:01 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:28 AM
Leveling up minstrel, and I feel it's wrong that I can take a purp pet and basically spam charm while it kills mobs for me.

It should have a 5 sec recast, which would completely shut down purple charming, unless you are very high RR.

Nope. that would be a very poor bandaid. That would even screw with charming OJs at times due to unlucky resists.

Soooooooo like a mentalist? at least low RR mentalist

Dunno. It's the wrong "fix".
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:29 AM by Niix
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:45 AM
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:34 AM
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:01 AM
Nope. that would be a very poor bandaid. That would even screw with charming OJs at times due to unlucky resists.

Soooooooo like a mentalist? at least low RR mentalist

Dunno. It's the wrong "fix".

Would it tho? Puts minstrels in line with mentalist charm capabilities which is already very strong ...
Thu 23 Aug 2018 3:35 AM by ShutenGlooten
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:29 AM
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:45 AM
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:34 AM
Soooooooo like a mentalist? at least low RR mentalist

Dunno. It's the wrong "fix".

Would it tho? Puts minstrels in line with mentalist charm capabilities which is already very strong ...
If you're implying minstrels should have a 5 second CD on charm, yes.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 3:56 AM by Quik
I think a 5 sec limit on charm would be a good limitation...why should he be better then Menty at charming a pet? Should be about the same
Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:58 AM by Vkejai
I don't know how you can compare a menty and mincer, instant dd, instant stun, instant dd, chain, stealth, speed, SOS....
Thu 23 Aug 2018 9:58 AM by Druth
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:58 AM
I don't know how you can compare a menty and mincer, instant dd, instant stun, instant dd, chain, stealth, speed, SOS....

Menty is a dps class, with a pet.
Minstrel is a support class, with a pet.

So they are hard to compare.

While I am a supporter for CD on charm, you have to remember that a menty does not have to twist charm/speed, and he can cast whatever he want and still keep pet.
On the other hand a minstrel, while being forced to twist songs increasing risk of resists, he can do so while still moving and it can't be interrupted.

I think minstrel is a stronger class than menty, but DaoC is not, and has never been, about 1on1 balance, but realm vs realm balance.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 1:50 PM by Quik
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 9:58 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:58 AM
I don't know how you can compare a menty and mincer, instant dd, instant stun, instant dd, chain, stealth, speed, SOS....

Menty is a dps class, with a pet.
Minstrel is a support class, with a pet.

So they are hard to compare.

While I am a supporter for CD on charm, you have to remember that a menty does not have to twist charm/speed, and he can cast whatever he want and still keep pet.
On the other hand a minstrel, while being forced to twist songs increasing risk of resists, he can do so while still moving and it can't be interrupted.

I think minstrel is a stronger class than menty, but DaoC is not, and has never been, about 1on1 balance, but realm vs realm balance.

The flip side is cast time.

I understand Min is support class...but why in the world keep a <1 second cast time for the minstrel? That is what makes it easy for him to get a purple pet. Even if the pet breaks charm they usually move at the same sped so the mob is now chasing the minstrel in the same direction they are already going and it is EASY for the minstrel to keep the pet charmed while they move around.

Yes I understand it is not AS easy as permacharm, but that <1 second spammable cast time is absolutely OP.

Also, the menty being a DPS class and Minstrel being support? To me that argues for the menty to have purple pets before the minstrel since he IS a DPS class and the minstrel was never meant to be. Why should a SUPPORT class ever have a lvl 61 pet to control when TRUE dps classes don't have anything as remotely as powerful???
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:30 PM by Druth
Quik wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 1:50 PM
Also, the menty being a DPS class and Minstrel being support? To me that argues for the menty to have purple pets before the minstrel since he IS a DPS class and the minstrel was never meant to be. Why should a SUPPORT class ever have a lvl 61 pet to control when TRUE dps classes don't have anything as remotely as powerful???

I don't think minstrels were ever meant to have lvl 61 pets, many things in DaoC were never "meant to be" as it is.

I want a CD, but I just also want people to take a deep breath and think about realm balance, before they look at "one" class isolated and want it nerfed.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:43 PM by heardstheword
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:30 PM
I don't think minstrels were ever meant to have lvl 61 pets, many things in DaoC were never "meant to be" as it is.

That's a good point. Users tend to find functionality not originally intended by developers in any software. I don't think they expected people to cancel-recast spam high level pets to negate some of the resist issues. Someone just happened to figure out that it worked.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 3:04 PM by phixion
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:43 PM
That's a good point. Users tend to find functionality not originally intended by developers in any software. I don't think they expected people to cancel-recast spam high level pets to negate some of the resist issues. Someone just happened to figure out that it worked.


If someone can find a shortcut to win in a competitive game, they'll use it. Look at all the strafing etc that goes on during fights, people will do anything to win and abuse any design flaw of the game.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 4:46 PM by Joc
Strafing isn't a design flaw. It's a core mechanic to use positionals. There is actually a staffing penalty so that there is a risk vs reward aspect to it also.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:22 PM by Kha
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:34 AM
ShutenGlooten wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:01 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:28 AM
Leveling up minstrel, and I feel it's wrong that I can take a purp pet and basically spam charm while it kills mobs for me.

It should have a 5 sec recast, which would completely shut down purple charming, unless you are very high RR.

Nope. that would be a very poor bandaid. That would even screw with charming OJs at times due to unlucky resists.

Soooooooo like a mentalist? at least low RR mentalist

They have the same formula, just not the same spell. Seems pretty obvious why. Or check atlas again.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:28 PM by Niix
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:22 PM
They have the same formula, just not the same spell. Seems pretty obvious why. Or check atlas again.

Yeah I know... my point is that he complained about 'losing control with unlucky resists' like its something he shouldn't have to deal with... its the wrong mentality, right now the only downside to charming a red/purple pet is having to press macros or keys constantly.

No reason you should be able to charm 55+ mob on any class any time for any reason in this game, like if you think it does then prove to me why the minstrel class will disappear from popularity if they did that... you honestly think they still wouldn't be a top solo class? you honestly think they still wouldn't be a priority pick in 8 mans?
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:36 PM by Kha
http://camelotherald.wikia.com/wiki/Patch_Notes:_Version_1.89
Nerf from 1.89
New Frontier Note : Glacier Giant is now resistant to charm spells.

It came after ''Wild minion for minstrel''
it came after some other nerf as legendary afanc charm.

If we really had OF minstrel, you would face level 75 pets.
Here they claim it's OF balance but somehow limit it to level 61 purple, 62-63 if high rank.

So what you complain about is really you want NF balance with red only. FINE but then :
Wild minion,
35% resist on red pets so EVERY SINGLE FREAKING MINSTREL CAN CONTROL IT, not even need to be good at it : Which means : noobs, or pro rupters that had to deal with yellow pets that can be two shot by casters in 8v8 are gone, it's red for every single minstrel, nor matter the gamestyle)
Do you, actually want that ?

Also NF pet balance include red frost stallions, With legendary cold weapons that debuff cold on pet damages
Red far dorocha with instant mezz (it was OF already but not on uth for some reason)

It could means many other things, but i'll stop there, major points are made. (Could give many more examples though)
Nf right now is : 3 songs at the same time. Another example ...

If you sign up for this easy and even more OP strell, i'll follow ! Right now. But i won't play it. It's the real easy mode, not even need to be good at anything.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:53 PM by Kha
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:30 PM
Quik wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 1:50 PM
Also, the menty being a DPS class and Minstrel being support? To me that argues for the menty to have purple pets before the minstrel since he IS a DPS class and the minstrel was never meant to be. Why should a SUPPORT class ever have a lvl 61 pet to control when TRUE dps classes don't have anything as remotely as powerful???

I don't think minstrels were ever meant to have lvl 61 pets, many things in DaoC were never "meant to be" as it is.

I want a CD, but I just also want people to take a deep breath and think about realm balance, before they look at "one" class isolated and want it nerfed.

Then i can tell you savage 1 shot people were not intended, paladin that can survive 40 green mobs were not intendend,
mentalist that can charm level 70+ mobs for a short duration were not intended
pbae that can go through walls was not intended,
bolt that can one shot people were not intended
Shrooms than see you and kill you from 3000 range between walls were not intended
BD pets that can basically solo anything were not intended
and many more ...

Then we need to build a freaking new game.
You start your server ?
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:54 PM by Horus
Anecdotal..

I played alb (Igraine) exclusively pre TOA and never saw a minstrel with a purple pet. Not sure what was different then compared to now...
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:59 PM by Kha
Horus wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 5:54 PM
Anecdotal..

I played alb (Igraine) exclusively pre TOA and never saw a minstrel with a purple pet. Not sure what was different then compared to now...

So there was none that knew how to play back in the days ? Close to none ? Just like 90% of the players, so it's a reference ?
I have never seen a million dollar cash, so it never existed !!!!

How many perfectly temp opponents back in the days ?
How many "poison" users ?
How many buffbot users ?
Overall, how many high RRs ? Or even decent groups ?
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:03 PM by Niix
Okay, so you know this isn't Uthgard right? It's not 100% strict rule set???

This game was not completely balanced around the patch level they're starting it, there are issues with things still and in all honesty the ilvl50 phase should do great work at determining class imbalances and holes for improvements. I think you have to be completely oblivious or ignorant to not agree minstrels charming red+ pets is 100% unnecessary and should have never been a design choice (as some people theorize was possibly never in the design choice). We shall let the testing in future pave they way for actual data and feedback from the player base, not just from minstrels who are obviously biased.

Also obviously players these days have SO MUCH more information at their finger tips about the daoc system and how to abuse it...I strongly feel like this is one of those things players have figured out and with internet these days, now everyone knows and will do it. If it can be done it will push the requirement of all alb groups to have a minstrel that is willing and capable to charm a red/purple pet.

Isn't being able to demezz yourself enough from charming a pet? why in the world do you THINK you NEED a red/purple pet?
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:09 PM by Kha
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:03 PM
Okay, so you know this isn't Uthgard right? It's not 100% strict rule set???

This game was not completely balanced around the patch level they're starting it, there are issues with things still and in all honesty
Isn't being able to demezz yourself enough from charming a pet? why in the world do you THINK you NEED a red/purple pet?

You are right, we don't. We don't want old ruleset !

But then you open the pandora box.


BDs ?? 2 pet max, we DONT NEED OLD RULESET wee ned balance !!
Animist ? 8 pet max, we don't need old ruleset, we need balance
Theurgist ? 15 second max for pets
warden ? No deter, it's never seen on an ovate, same for friar, unless shaman gets determination.
Reaver ? Ban leviathan !!
Savage ? FFS ban quads !!
NS ?? WTF !! 1500 Range max and 2.8 cast time.

Now we are talking, as you said, we don't play 1.65 we play new rules set.
Bring it on !!! FINALLY !!



Again : it's not 1.65 minst or you would face 75 level pets (including glacier giant, legendary afanc, some avalon city bosses or sentry, some epic quest bosses from Lyonness that we can bring into frontier with many efforts to defend relics for example etc...), it's just a custom "you still have low purple if you break your fingers for it deal with it" classic daoc. Carefull what you whish for.
I have datas, you know it.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:51 PM by Varano
I don't think many solo players will be playing this server if minst is allowed to charm purps.
Reds should only be allowed with a lot of resists and high RR.
Please Up-vote if you agree, also some Developer input would be appreciated.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:06 PM by Niix
Kha wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:09 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 6:03 PM
Okay, so you know this isn't Uthgard right? It's not 100% strict rule set???

This game was not completely balanced around the patch level they're starting it, there are issues with things still and in all honesty
Isn't being able to demezz yourself enough from charming a pet? why in the world do you THINK you NEED a red/purple pet?

You are right, we don't. We don't want old ruleset !

But then you open the pandora box.


BDs ?? 2 pet max, we DONT NEED OLD RULESET wee ned balance !!
Animist ? 8 pet max, we don't need old ruleset, we need balance
Theurgist ? 15 second max for pets
warden ? No deter, it's never seen on an ovate, same for friar, unless shaman gets determination.
Reaver ? Ban leviathan !!
Savage ? FFS ban quads !!
NS ?? WTF !! 1500 Range max and 2.8 cast time.

Now we are talking, as you said, we don't play 1.65 we play new rules set.
Bring it on !!! FINALLY !!



Again : it's not 1.65 minst or you would face 75 level pets (including glacier giant, legendary afanc, some avalon city bosses or sentry, some epic quest bosses from Lyonness that we can bring into frontier with many efforts to defend relics for example etc...), it's just a custom "you still have low purple if you break your fingers for it deal with it" classic daoc. Carefull what you whish for.
I have datas, you know it.

So this is my point, most of those items you listed I actually strongly agree with:
- BD Pets def should have limited to main and 1 secondary pet
- animists are and have always been limited by their cheese factor and would love to see reductions in max pets and other areas to make them more useful for anything other than camping
- theurgists are probably the strongest 8v8 class in the game, would like to see some changes tuning them down a bit
- warden - not sure i understand this argument, never thought wardens were OP or a problem before ToA and BG's were a thing and they were BG/Grapple bots
- reaver - just make leviathan a melee dmg coded and not cold so you can't debuff nuke it
- savage - limit to triple hits (never understood need for quads and i played one for years)
- NS was only a problem before cure nearsight, i would like to see the reduction changed to 30-45 seconds ... 2 mins is a bit insane ... but really that only affects groups without druids in keep defenses that afk for 2 mins after a 0.5 cast NS.

These are all items and things they should be tweaking and looking at during the i50 beta phase... maybe some of them are tuned, maybe none but the data should support the decisions they make.
Thu 23 Aug 2018 8:56 PM by Seigmoraig
"warden ? No deter, it's never seen on an ovate, same for friar, unless shaman gets determination."

Shaman has no reason getting Determination, Friars and Wardens got it because they are hybrid classes ie. They have a weapon spec and spells
Fri 24 Aug 2018 1:24 AM by Kha
Druth wrote: ↑
Thu 23 Aug 2018 2:30 PM
I don't think minstrels were ever meant to have lvl 61 pets, many things in DaoC were never "meant to be" as it is.


Dude, it's AS OLD as 1.46 .... Seriously ... It's not about what you think ... it's about how the game was designed.

Version 1.46 Release Notes
To charm a monster, you no longer require the use of the flute (for Mnstrels). Simply target the monster and use the corresponding spell/song for your charm. Monsters at or below your level will have a very small chance of resisting the charm as it pulses, which means there's always an element of risk involved. You may also charm monsters above the your level(oranges, reds and low purples ), though as the monster level increases above that of the caster's, so does the risk of the monster resisting the charm and aggressing the caster.

Will really open the pandora box if we listen to that dozen "i don't think xxxxx but have 0 datas" club of whinners and nerf a class too much :wink:
Because then, we can just whinne enough about every single class, and nerf it. And we have atleast 3 classes more retarded than strel.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:01 AM by Isavyr
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 1:24 AM
Because then, we can just whinne enough about every single class, and nerf it. And we have atleast 3 classes more retarded than strel.

It's really amusing. You make a point which argues against you as much as it helps you, but you only read it one way. Read it again:
though as the monster level increases above that of the caster's, so does the risk of the monster resisting the charm and aggressing the caster.

When you have a macro--press the button 10x in a row manually--the resist chance isn't significant either way. In other words, their own stated design fails. Thus, the original statement of how it was "meant to be" is true--a lot of their designs, including the one you just referenced, doesn't effectively work as advertised.

Anyway, I think you're trolling more so than anything, so while we're at it, let's bring back Left Axe. Was totally balanced. Only nerfed because of complainers /s.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:31 AM by Kha
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:01 AM
When you have a macro--press the button 10x in a row manually--the resist chance isn't significant either way. In other words, their own stated design fails. Thus, the original statement of how it was "meant to be" is true--a lot of their designs, including the one you just referenced, doesn't effectively work as advertised.



Macro users will be ban, and i really hope they ban ALL of them. Perma. Heard they have ways to see this, even if it take some survey on players suspected to use.
This class is fun to play or fight against only if it's fair play (hands).
When i manually spam my charm i can't do rupts or other task as quickly as i would without a pet.
(Sometimes involve clicks, as you may see on this known minstrel video : https://www.jeuxonline.info/video/7392/alexscoupersonyque he end up clicking lot of stuff as his keyboard is focus on charms. You may also notice he only have 50ish% resist on a 61 pet with his 50+20 instrument) Pet plays start at 6:49 if you don't like the intro/roleplay.

Macro users ruin the game and deserve instant perma ban. I don't.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:44 AM by jelzinga_EU
I made a very simple Google-sheet on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oAAqWs9TmDsR-LDIP5qQqjJAkUSVtMNhWjaistjeRlM/edit?usp=sharing where you can plugin numbers (chance to resist, how often you spam charm button and charm-duration) and it calculates the chance you will successfully control it.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 6:25 AM by Kha
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:44 AM
I made a very simple Google-sheet on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oAAqWs9TmDsR-LDIP5qQqjJAkUSVtMNhWjaistjeRlM/edit?usp=sharing where you can plugin numbers (chance to resist, how often you spam charm button and charm-duration) and it calculates the chance you will successfully control it.

I really like that one.
It doesn't take in account many things, like rupts you have to do, demezz, swithc weapon to snare, stun for rupts or assist caby calls when not a tank target etc etc...
However, it's the start of a test. Very nice.
Did a 99% resist test and got 21% chance to perma control, if ONLY charm done, could you try to RvR with a 99% resist pet and show us how it goes please ?

By doing nothing else alexcoupersonyque was able to charm vazul l ( level 85 pet 99% resist) in TOA and never lost it long enough to be attacked during his video.
But are we JUST about charm ? Nope, charm is one of the XX things expected from the class. We can't really add all the other things in your google doc, it's just charm spam related, and a charm spam only strel will get his ass kicked by anyone, unless it's Level 75 Glacier giant charm or 70+ legendary afanc (which were 1.65 charms but not possible here and it seems fine, small purple are hard/good enough).


EDIT : Can we edit it all we want ? Do you have a copy of the first analyse ?
Fri 24 Aug 2018 7:06 AM by Druth
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:31 AM
Macro users ruin the game and deserve instant perma ban. I don't.

They allowed macroes, to some extend.
So you are allowed to have your charm button spam it 10 times.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 8:32 AM by Kha
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 7:06 AM
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:31 AM
Macro users ruin the game and deserve instant perma ban. I don't.

They allowed macroes, to some extend.
So you are allowed to have your charm button spam it 10 times.

Druth i really like you, but is your statement ; automatic softs are allowed in this server ? It's dangerous.
If it is, prove it and i leave RIGHT NOW, am not here to play a auto free to play daoc.

EDIT : didn't hear you since i published one part of my data (1.46 patchnote) whats your take on that ? You were saying it was never meant to charm purple, and pacthnote says it's basically bullshit statement ... Intesresting ?
Btw i know you have lot of friends to support that thread, but make sure only the ones that know the topic join you on this battle... Or you loose credits ...
Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:35 AM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 8:32 AM
didn't hear you since i published one part of my data (1.46 patchnote) whats your take on that ? You were saying it was never meant to charm purple, and pacthnote says it's basically bullshit statement ... Intesresting ?
You just don't get it, noone cares for 1.65 data. Everyone knows that it was possible. Also everyone knows that mythic balanced it a bit by capping at level 59.
We want a balanced server in opposition to you. Purple pets are not balanced...
Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:54 AM by Druth
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 8:32 AM
Druth i really like you, but is your statement ; automatic softs are allowed in this server ? It's dangerous.
If it is, prove it and i leave RIGHT NOW, am not here to play a auto free to play daoc.

EDIT : didn't hear you since i published one part of my data (1.46 patchnote) whats your take on that ? You were saying it was never meant to charm purple, and pacthnote says it's basically bullshit statement ... Intesresting ?
Btw i know you have lot of friends to support that thread, but make sure only the ones that know the topic join you on this battle... Or you loose credits ...

Take a deep breath... you are posting aggressive.
My current main is a minstrel, but that does not mean I can't take a objective view on the subject.

"3.5.1 Any hardware or third-party software, as well as any other action that allows unattended game-play, alters movement speed of your character, reveals positions of enemy players, hotkeys to auto queue attacks or spells, or any other action which we determine as an unfair advantage to your character.
It is allowed to bind multiple actions to a key however, delays, repeats and conditions are strictly forbidden."
I don't do spam charm, but it is allowed to bind multiple actions.
The "hotkeys to auto queue attacks or spells" does not apply, because charm is insta with no CD, so you don't autoque it, you just spam it 2/4/6/8/10 times.

It does appear they meant you to be able to charm purple pets, but they also say it should come at great risk: "It is advised to not risk charming orange, red or purple monsters unless you believe the situation warrants this emergency action and only if you are prepared to accept the potential penalties involved with doing so. "
So my old statement "I don't think they were meant to..." still is valid, in the context that some minstrels run around with purple pets, and is not some panicly emergency where they grab a purple pet for one fight.

It does not seem to me, as it is right now, that minstrels do it in emergency situations, but that it's common, and picking yellows are for lazy minstrels who don't want to bother spamming charm on resists.


And I have to say, if you are not able to reply in non-angry way, don't bother. I let it slide, but I don't do discussion with people who get this emotional, no point won't change their mind anyway.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:06 AM by Druth
Also not sure who all my friends are, think only a handful would even be able to guess who my chars are right now (after I left hib).
Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:24 AM by Kha
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:54 AM
Take a deep breath... you are posting aggressive.

This is really interesting, i don't see any agressive behavior here.
Here is some agressive behavior : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTyESHQTjrU
You identify this ?

Just stating that you are oblivious on balance, and you and your friends will obviously use old agendas. I could be BD you would run for BD nerf.
I could be paladin, even if it's the weakest class around you would rule for paladin nerf.

I don't mind this fun "play around the words and be delusional" stuff. Just keep it reasonable, somehow.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:52 AM by Druth
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:24 AM
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:54 AM
Take a deep breath... you are posting aggressive.

This is really interesting, i don't see any agressive behavior here.
Here is some agressive behavior : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTyESHQTjrU
You identify this ?

Just stating that you are oblivious on balance, and you and your friends will obviously use old agendas. I could be BD you would run for BD nerf.
I could be paladin, even if it's the weakest class around you would rule for paladin nerf.

I don't mind this fun "play around the words and be delusional" stuff. Just keep it reasonable, somehow.

Yeah... you have no clue who I am I see. I am not Drutt... I played Guinevere server mid, and Uthgard on alb.
Guessing people's identity and then continue with this:
"Just stating that you are oblivious on balance, and you and your friends will obviously use old agendas."
Is really bad for a discussion.


I played Mid in the warlock launch period, and remember the staunches defenders of warlocks, were... warlocks.
When you defend a class you play, you need better defence file than listing stuff written 1½ YEAR!!! (and keep in mind the text makes a note that you should not charm orange+ unless it's an emergency) before the patch level we are trying to emulate.
When you feel this strong about a class, you are not capable of defending it objectively, sorry but you are not. Not saying you CAN'T defend it, just that it would all be subjective reflecting you not wanting it nerfed/adjusted.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:54 AM by Druth
Funny vid btw, always a gem to re-listen.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 1:33 PM by Quik
The whole point of the minstrel debate here is NOT if it was meant to be this way, but simply whether it SHOULD be this way.

Minstrel can be built 2 different ways from what I hear in game, but both ways are 50 Instruments and temping is very easy here so EVERY minstrel who puts any effort will max instruments.

SHOULD a minstrel be able to Charm a Grand Pookha + insta mez + AoE Mez + 2 DD shouts + Power Regen + HP Buffer + basic to decent weapon ability + STEALTH + CHAIN armor.

Granted doing all these things at once are obviously not typical BUT I had a player in game who had his keys set up and his 9 button mouse set up so he could do all these. Something about the charm if it gets dropped before the duration ends on its own and then reapplied will autocharm bypassing resists? I am trying to see what he was talking about and will hopefully talk to him again tonight after work.

What a minstrel CAN do in skilled hands is WAY ABOVE AND BEYOND what he SHOULD be able to do.

Without ANY pet charming the minstrel is far and away the best support class in the game with all those abilities taken into account and adding stealth is just broken.

I understand that 1 class will always be the best and I get that, but when everyone else is a 1-5 on a scale of 1-10 and then Minstrel is a 10...that is a huge leap and is OP.

Once we hear from the dev's what the plan is I personally will go with their decision. if they say it is fine, so be it. Will I stay? Maybe not simply because I was under the impression that the dev's here wanted to balance the game more than the actual 1.65 which is why we have all the QOL changes. Maybe I will and maybe I will play the most OP class in the game like you do and sit her and argue it needs to be the most OP class. Actually I won't, I will never play the most OP realm or class in RvR and never have.

Kha your statement that it has always been this way MEANS NOTHING. Dev's here are already changing a lot of things to make life better. Things that weren't always that way. We never had feathers before, but they added them and I love the idea and the implementation. Your argument would be since we never had them we shouldn't add them now. We never had eggs for bonus xp before so your argument would be we shouldn't add them. Phoenix is already reinventing 1.65 into the image they have pictured and so far it is really nice.

The arguments here are not saying it hasn't always been this way, the arguments are SHOULD it be this way now?

Would still love to hear a dev's take on this and what their plans are.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 2:54 PM by Joc
The way I see it is that the only change really needed is to cap the pet at 59. Even at that they are the best support/rupter in 8 means of any realm. The board would likely be the 2nd but at a great distance back.

I love minstrels, but I'm also not playing them on this server. Capping a pet at 59 still leaves the minstrel very strong, if not the strongest class in the game. A lot of it is just the current patch level and I'm ok with it tbh. Minstrels have ALWAYS been strong, but at this patch level they were, imo, the strongest. I'm not wanting to but the class, so capping the pet would really be the only change I would like to see.

I've seen Kha play, and he is quite skilled at the class along with a few other minstrels. It shouldn't be that bad of a nerf to cap the pet level.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 3:01 PM by Niix
Joc wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 2:54 PM
The way I see it is that the only change really needed is to cap the pet at 59. Even at that they are the best support/rupter in 8 means of any realm. The board would likely be the 2nd but at a great distance back.

I love minstrels, but I'm also not playing them on this server. Capping a pet at 59 still leaves the minstrel very strong, if not the strongest class in the game. A lot of it is just the current patch level and I'm ok with it tbh. Minstrels have ALWAYS been strong, but at this patch level they were, imo, the strongest. I'm not wanting to but the class, so capping the pet would really be the only change I would like to see.

I've seen Kha play, and he is quite skilled at the class along with a few other minstrels. It shouldn't be that bad of a nerf to cap the pet level.

If after nerf they're still clearly the best class in the game then maybe the nerf isn't enough? lol

All MMO games strive to have some level of balance, the best part about daoc is the unique nature of all the realms classes which only makes this process harder. I personally think minstrel is OP with yellow pet in the current design, giving them a purple pet that requires 4 casts to root or mezz w/o luck is just insane in any 8v8 group environment. They honestly should solicit feedback from the better 8v8 groups on the server, will be curious to know their take on it ... especially the groups not running a minstrel themselves.

Also this weekend event will be interesting, very curious how some of these groups that have setups in multiple realms build their groups... I expect to see a lot of minstrels.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 3:12 PM by jelzinga_EU
Kha wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 6:25 AM
jelzinga_EU wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 4:44 AM
I made a very simple Google-sheet on https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oAAqWs9TmDsR-LDIP5qQqjJAkUSVtMNhWjaistjeRlM/edit?usp=sharing where you can plugin numbers (chance to resist, how often you spam charm button and charm-duration) and it calculates the chance you will successfully control it.

I really like that one.
It doesn't take in account many things, like rupts you have to do, demezz, swithc weapon to snare, stun for rupts or assist caby calls when not a tank target etc etc...
However, it's the start of a test. Very nice.
Did a 99% resist test and got 21% chance to perma control, if ONLY charm done, could you try to RvR with a 99% resist pet and show us how it goes please ?

By doing nothing else alexcoupersonyque was able to charm vazul l ( level 85 pet 99% resist) in TOA and never lost it long enough to be attacked during his video.
But are we JUST about charm ? Nope, charm is one of the XX things expected from the class. We can't really add all the other things in your google doc, it's just charm spam related, and a charm spam only strel will get his ass kicked by anyone, unless it's Level 75 Glacier giant charm or 70+ legendary afanc (which were 1.65 charms but not possible here and it seems fine, small purple are hard/good enough).


EDIT : Can we edit it all we want ? Do you have a copy of the first analyse ?

You can make a copy of the sheet and change as much as you like - it was just a thing I made to quickly have a feeling on what kind of pet I can hold reliably - nothing too fancy.

And obviously it doesn't factor in all those other things you wanna/can/need to do in RvR - but you can simply adjust your Charm-spam rate to a lower amount to get a feeling about it.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 6:37 PM by reptar
Yall need to stop engaging Kha and his terrible arguments. 15 pages of this crap.
Fri 24 Aug 2018 8:44 PM by Joc
Think it's bad now? Wait until casting and AI is implanted into pets. There will be buffing pets also.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:32 AM by burglebutt
Hard nerf minstrels starting with Sos and then some, make daoc enjoyable and fix bad game design.
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:50 PM by Ganaka
Joc wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 8:44 PM
Think it's bad now? Wait until casting and AI is implanted into pets. There will be buffing pets also.

How bad will the complaints be at that point? Haha..
Sun 26 Aug 2018 1:54 PM by Kha
Guys thanks alot that was fun.
Going to stop posting here for some time, real bad behaviors showed their true self few posts ago, and even if i pushed hard, nothing relevant came from it.
I understand your pov to some extend, i hate some other classes myself. Just an opinion isn't enough, and so far everything got easily debunked even when i pushed for some hate or some more datas.

Cheers to jelzinga_EU, good approach but unfortunately, just about charm, can't take all the tasks in consideration.

Was a fun run, and some fun trolling. Now have even more fun, and keep going to hate the classe, or to hate me. Who cares ? Just opinions...
It's been like that for 18 years for the class, and like that for a few weeks (or more for some old friends ) when i started to "defend" ""if/when""" need to be.

/love.
PM for real tests.
Sun 26 Aug 2018 3:00 PM by Rubin
Kha wrote: ↑
Sun 26 Aug 2018 1:54 PM
We already understood after 1page that you have no interest in a balanced server. Good that you are out of the discussion, since all you did was derailing anyway. Didnt see any argument from your side why it is balanced that a minstrel can charm a purple pet.
15pages of dodging that question, that is it.
Mon 27 Aug 2018 5:13 PM by phixion
From the patch notes:

- minstrel charming for high level mobs changed

Soooo... what’s changed?
Mon 27 Aug 2018 5:41 PM by jelzinga_EU
I tested a bit, the highest I could still hold with 90% resist rate was a level 59 (red-con) while i was having 50+12 (RR2) instruments

54 was 15% resists (orange con)
55 was 30% resists (orange con)
...
59 was 90% resists (red con)
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:36 PM by Vkejai
What change has been made?
Mon 27 Aug 2018 7:39 PM by Vkejai
RR2 holding a lvl 55 pet at 30% resist hardly seems no different?
Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:46 AM by Zansobar
Now maybe if they put a 5 or 10 second recast time on the charm that aspect of the OP Minstrel class might be balanced? Then they could move on to other issues with the Minstrel class.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 2:42 AM by Quik
Yeah I appreciate the dev's looking at this but really it is still OP.

They may not get a Grand Pookha now, but they REALLY need to look at this.

A Minstrel is a SUPPORT class. A SUPPORT class should NEVER have more DPS then a DPS class.

A Sorc can charm up to a yellow I believe and it is a DPS class. yellow charm at best.

A Menty can charm an OJ at best? Not sure if it is OJ or Yellow honestly but pretty sure it is OJ. It also takes power I think to keep up. Again the Menty is a DPS class.

Why in the WORLD can a Support class Minstrel have a better pet then both those DPS classes?!?!?!

Also why can they have better then SM/Enchie/Cabby which have pets that are around 3-5 levels below them at lvl 50 I think? My necro I think has an Abomination at 44 when I am 50. I understand the Necro has other spells to buff said pet as do the others, but again, how is it fair or how does it even make sense to let a SUPPORT class have a better pet then EVERY DPS CLASS IN THE GAME that can have a pet???

The idea above about 5-10 second CD I think is a perfect fix for this.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 2:55 AM by lcx
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 2:42 AM
A Minstrel is a SUPPORT class.

Lol
Tue 28 Aug 2018 4:55 AM by Cadebrennus
Quik wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 2:42 AM
Yeah I appreciate the dev's looking at this but really it is still OP.

They may not get a Grand Pookha now, but they REALLY need to look at this.

A Minstrel is a SUPPORT class. A SUPPORT class should NEVER have more DPS then a DPS class.

A Sorc can charm up to a yellow I believe and it is a DPS class. yellow charm at best.

A Menty can charm an OJ at best? Not sure if it is OJ or Yellow honestly but pretty sure it is OJ. It also takes power I think to keep up. Again the Menty is a DPS class.

Why in the WORLD can a Support class Minstrel have a better pet then both those DPS classes?!?!?!

Also why can they have better then SM/Enchie/Cabby which have pets that are around 3-5 levels below them at lvl 50 I think? My necro I think has an Abomination at 44 when I am 50. I understand the Necro has other spells to buff said pet as do the others, but again, how is it fair or how does it even make sense to let a SUPPORT class have a better pet then EVERY DPS CLASS IN THE GAME that can have a pet???

The idea above about 5-10 second CD I think is a perfect fix for this.

They also take far less melee damage than Sorc/Ment due to chain armor and can escape/attack with wall climbing and stealth. If the Phoenix admins want to balance Minstrels then restricting them to leather armor (as a rogue class) and removing climb walls would go a long way towards that balance.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:48 PM by Shadanwolf
How would a mele character ever take one down ?
I tried to kill one in a bg. THe minstrel practically ignored my efforts on my assasin(hib). They are beyond over powered.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 3:29 PM by ecopli
Hello,
i see all the post here, and minstrel has been nerfed now.
my name is Monsterpet on albion i play minstrel;

Who playing minstrel here ? please don't speak about this if you never play this.
When all people in group is just afk stick and smoking, minstrel need to spell charm every 8/11 sec + twist speed, don't forget this.

Please just try to disable bug first before nerfing.

Pet bug a lot of time:
- if y"re snare, the pet is snare to ? what da fock?
- When you walk up a mountain or walk down a mountain pet don't stick you!! he lost in the pathfind !
The pathfinder is broken and pet don't abble to follow you correctly when the "position Z" have a lot of change.

When you're not in combat (speed works again); pet have speed after 10sec why not ...

but I think the most beautiful invention is:
- pet sprint, only when you sprint ? when u"re in fight if y're CC, you can't sprint, and pet stop sprint? rly?
@daoc 17years who invented this srly ?? who ?

in real rvr if you don't want a pet minstrel on you:
- Run out of range of charming
- Clear the pet
- Clear the minstrel
- Root or Mezz (giving time).
but just sprint ... it's all the story of minstrel daoc.

- if you stealth with pet, the pet have speed 0,0001 ... lol ... /clap
- pet in combat when target died, stay on corpse.
- (NEW) pet caster/range Lost of view on target, try to cast and don't move.

Please, Disable the patch or the script where is writted:
pet speed = the same speed minstrel; or upgrad this, change or do anything xD
Tue 28 Aug 2018 3:52 PM by Druth
Playing minstrel, and pets are sometimes a pain to manage. But they are also amazing.

Minstrel is one of those classes that when played well they are top 3 class, and played poorly bottom 5.
You really need to manage a lot of skills/juggle items to be effective, and when I started out my pet attacked me most fights, and also when running.

I think the nerf was justified, but please don't go overboard. Class balance is fine, but realm balance is more important.

Their damage is in no way near a caster, and their defence in no way near a tank. They can cc, but no way as well as the main cc'ers.
If minstrels were as crazy as some portray them, albs would be running no casters/mercs, just 2 clerics and 6 minstrels. They are not.


Again, I thought the purple pet charm was to strong, but thats it.
Tue 28 Aug 2018 11:32 PM by Niix
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 28 Aug 2018 1:46 AM
Now maybe if they put a 5 or 10 second recast time on the charm that aspect of the OP Minstrel class might be balanced? Then they could move on to other issues with the Minstrel class.

All they need is a 1 second recast delay to balance them.
Thu 30 Aug 2018 9:29 PM by Ganaka
Except for heals, nearly all other insta-casts have a 4 or 5 second recast. Debuffs, lifetaps, etc...
Fri 31 Aug 2018 7:24 AM by Disco
i wonder if there's a resistrate set by the game,
why it allows players to bypass it with tricks (spamming charm and using tools/macros to make it easyer)?

this is the same as chant-switching tools on pallys/skalds, strafing around, putting necro pets into the walls, lag jumps, window dragging, kill-client and co.
which was not intended for the game at all.

for me that is exploiting game mechanics.

if this is not getting fixed till release,
there should at least be a vote of the community to finally bring peace to the topic.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 8:21 AM by Druth
Ganaka wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 9:29 PM
Except for heals, nearly all other insta-casts have a 4 or 5 second recast. Debuffs, lifetaps, etc...

You can't compare it...

Even a yellow has a risk of resisting, and if you fail to control pet it attacks minstrel, putting minstrel in combat and halting him.
Very bad for chasing/fleeing when doing solo, smallman, 8man.

A 1 sec recast means spamming it wont help you.
But a high RR minstrel will be able to control red/purple, but thats how it's always been.


And again, this is a 1v1 issue, not a RvR issue. DaoC was never balanced around 1v1, it's a game about Realmwar.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 11:07 AM by Rubin
How is that just a 1v1 issue?
And just because it has been like that it does not mean it can't be balanced out. They did it on Live, I dont see why it should not be done here.
Purple pet means much higher resists, more health and hence much harder to kill in 1v1, and group play.
So it is even a bigger problem in group play, since a minstrel will kill you 1v1 no matter what, yellow pet, orange pet, purple pet does not matter since it is a broken class in 1v1.
The issue is group play and hence it should be capped to balance game play.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 11:50 AM by Druth
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 11:07 AM
How is that just a 1v1 issue?
And just because it has been like that it does not mean it can't be balanced out. They did it on Live, I dont see why it should not be done here.
Purple pet means much higher resists, more health and hence much harder to kill in 1v1, and group play.
So it is even a bigger problem in group play, since a minstrel will kill you 1v1 no matter what, yellow pet, orange pet, purple pet does not matter since it is a broken class in 1v1.
The issue is group play and hence it should be capped to balance game play.

If this was as strong, as people say, albs would run 4+ minstrels in groups. They lack dps and they also lack defence, they are still great, but their use diminishes greatly when you start doing 2 minstrels, and having 3 would be the road to gimp.

This is strong solo, because A) It becomes 2v1 B) Only risk pet attacking minstrel C) You don't need to change targets, there is only one you want the pet to hit.
I think it makes minstrel the strongest solo class, but it is not the strongest group class.


I would be fine with limiting minstrels to orange pet though, if they also made charm a spell and not pulse (song), so they don't have to twist.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 1:50 PM by Niix
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 11:50 AM
Rubin wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 11:07 AM
How is that just a 1v1 issue?
And just because it has been like that it does not mean it can't be balanced out. They did it on Live, I dont see why it should not be done here.
Purple pet means much higher resists, more health and hence much harder to kill in 1v1, and group play.
So it is even a bigger problem in group play, since a minstrel will kill you 1v1 no matter what, yellow pet, orange pet, purple pet does not matter since it is a broken class in 1v1.
The issue is group play and hence it should be capped to balance game play.

If this was as strong, as people say, albs would run 4+ minstrels in groups. They lack dps and they also lack defence, they are still great, but their use diminishes greatly when you start doing 2 minstrels, and having 3 would be the road to gimp.

This is strong solo, because A) It becomes 2v1 B) Only risk pet attacking minstrel C) You don't need to change targets, there is only one you want the pet to hit.
I think it makes minstrel the strongest solo class, but it is not the strongest group class.


I would be fine with limiting minstrels to orange pet though, if they also made charm a spell and not pulse (song), so they don't have to twist.

Try dealing with a buffed purple pet in 8v8 :L

They should just give minstrel the mentalist charm skill, it properly weighs risk vs reward and at a decent pet level.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:03 PM by Druth
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 1:50 PM
Try dealing with a buffed purple pet in 8v8 :L

They should just give minstrel the mentalist charm skill, it properly weighs risk vs reward and at a decent pet level.

Try dealing with Mid/Hib backside snare.
Try dealing with BM massive damage/utility.
Try dealing with stun on casters.
Try dealing with pbaoe insta disease.
Try dealing with only 2 buffers vs. 3.
Try dealing with x, y, z and AA...

Every realm has crap the others wish they had.
And I love it! The diversity is why I play the game still.

Does minstrel make Alb groups dominate Hibs/MIds in more than 50% of fights? I mean dominate, not just win.
Do you feel that your losses were due to minstrel pets?
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:50 PM by Geek
Druth wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 2:03 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 1:50 PM
Try dealing with a buffed purple pet in 8v8 :L

They should just give minstrel the mentalist charm skill, it properly weighs risk vs reward and at a decent pet level.

Try dealing with Mid/Hib backside snare.
Try dealing with BM massive damage/utility.
Try dealing with stun on casters.
Try dealing with pbaoe insta disease.
Try dealing with only 2 buffers vs. 3.
Try dealing with x, y, z and AA...

Every realm has crap the others wish they had.
And I love it! The diversity is why I play the game still.

Does minstrel make Alb groups dominate Hibs/MIds in more than 50% of fights? I mean dominate, not just win.
Do you feel that your losses were due to minstrel pets?

What he said ^^
Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:28 PM by Niix
I understand and agree diversity is the best parts of the game and fully get each realms strengths on certain classes.

The discussion here is surrounding the fact minstrels are one of the strongest classes in the game with all their utility... BEFORE you consider their ability to charm red pets.

Pets ignored completely they’re still strong, the point is simply they shouldn’t be able to charm such high level pets so easily without actual risk, which was clearly the design intention. With macros and where game is, it’s simply too easy to hold high level pets and they need to adjust the risk vs reward to balance it out.
Fri 31 Aug 2018 7:15 PM by Vkejai
What macro's? Please share
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:43 AM by Joc
Disco wrote: ↑
Fri 31 Aug 2018 7:24 AM
i wonder if there's a resistrate set by the game,
why it allows players to bypass it with tricks (spamming charm and using tools/macros to make it easyer)?

this is the same as chant-switching tools on pallys/skalds, strafing around, putting necro pets into the walls, lag jumps, window dragging, kill-client and co.
which was not intended for the game at all.

for me that is exploiting game mechanics.

if this is not getting fixed till release,
there should at least be a vote of the community to finally bring peace to the topic.

I still don't get how people consider strafing an exploit. It's been a core mechanic in the game to land positionals since beta. This has never been an exploit.
Sat 1 Sep 2018 10:46 AM by Druth
Joc wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Sep 2018 9:43 AM
I still don't get how people consider strafing an exploit. It's been a core mechanic in the game to land positionals since beta. This has never been an exploit.

And people mix up strafing with walking into another char.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:11 PM by ecopli
Hello, i'm playing in albion nickname: Monsterpet 5L8 (playing minstrel > 10years; )
Just for information about this class;

Before patch, the way for charming a pet with 97% resist is to create a "cheated Bind with your cheater keyboard" for cast 2032charm in 0.1 sec on pet;
But GameMaster already patched this;
3charm/sec.

NOW ?

You can't create macro for automatic charming;
is not possible; you need to target the pet for charming every 1 sec;
just tell me how to create macro for "Targeting pet"; Cast charm; "and Targeting the old target "???

Dark Age of Camelot not look's like World of warcraft;
/focus > Don't exist;
/target focus > Don't exist;
/lasttarget > Don't exist;

The only way is using bind lastattacker, for comming back in a good target;
> bind > targetpet
> bind > spam charm
> bind > lastattacker (for initial target only if y're attacked!!!)

Working in PvE good you can create macro ... /clap GL for XP
Now in RvR, explain me how you can do this ? no possible.
Thanks for this patch; Only player without macro play on minstrel, and cheater macro leaved.


it's a very good issue Now all is ok.;

For me it's the same, playing minstrel i hold a purple pet buffed by cleric, i use self potion for me;
Pet never hit > 300, people crying about dps ? but they don't cap anything; and comming RvR with Grey/bleu stuff ...

Just a little problem; now i can't use the tchat when i play minstrel with purple/red pet;
don't send me, i need to charm and don't lose speed ^^'

don't forget this, minstrel can't afk with purple/red pet;
and if you can't afk > 95% player can't play this class.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:14 PM by Druth
If you can't manage to click/use closest enemy after charming, you belong to the 95%.

Have to expand...

Minstrels are still in the top 3-5 classes in the game, even with this change.
Charm oranges if you can't handle it, or don't charm. Even without a pet my minstrel still wins many fights. With a pet I die to being outnumbered or assassins landing perf/CD.

The class is fine, if you can't be objective about a class, stop participating in discussions about it.


Reminds me of the tears, floods of tears, when Mythic nerfed warlocks. As a Mid I stood on the sideline listening to how much people QQ'd, people who had killed fg's.
It was at this point I realized how idiotic daoc players can be when they defend their OP class.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:18 PM by ecopli
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:14 PM
If you can't manage to click/use closest enemy after charming, you belong to the 95%.
closest enemy is really not good, targeting click more safe xD
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:21 PM by Druth
ecopli wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:18 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:14 PM
If you can't manage to click/use closest enemy after charming, you belong to the 95%.
closest enemy is really not good, targeting click more safe xD

Whatever, I click, but I mean whatever gets you through the fight.

My point is, that if you want a purple pet read this line:
"You may also charm monsters above the your level (oranges, reds and low purples), though as the monster level increases above that of the caster's, so does the risk of the monster resisting the charm and aggressing the caster.It is advised to not risk charming orange, red or purple monsters unless you believe the situation warrants this emergency action and only if you are prepared to accept the potential penalties involved with doing so. "
Patch 1.46.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:22 PM by Druth
My minstrel is RR4 btw, I dare not think how beasty he'll be at RR7 with IP and more passives.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:33 PM by ecopli
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:22 PM
My minstrel is RR4 btw, I dare not think how beasty he'll be at RR7 with IP and more passives.
IP cooldown is to hight
In group i use resist magic IX and SoS, because nobody play friar ^^'.

Managed pet is hardest; i think a lot of people don't understand this;
i'm just waiting for Instant50 rr3 and look all people with minstrel trying to rvr with red/purple pet (hahaha).
disconnect after 30min, and going back spaming pet on animist
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:36 PM by Druth
ecopli wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:33 PM
Druth wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 12:22 PM
My minstrel is RR4 btw, I dare not think how beasty he'll be at RR7 with IP and more passives.
IP cooldown is to hight
In group i use resist magic IX and SoS, because nobody play friar ^^'.

I mostly solo
But agree, for group minstrel AoM 9 is a must.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:00 PM by Kaziera
I dont see a problem. Only QQ.

Whuuuuu my really OP class is only moderately OP now.

#nerfhammerhitsyouhardbro
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:11 PM by Bigg
The charm should be spammable as it has been on live for 18 years. They only need to hard cap the charm ability vs the lvl of the mob. Purple pets should need a certain realm rank to obtain. Instead they make some freakshow change that makes no sense.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:02 PM by phixion
Bigg wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:11 PM
The charm should be spammable as it has been on live for 18 years. They only need to hard cap the charm ability vs the lvl of the mob. Purple pets should need a certain realm rank to obtain. Instead they make some freakshow change that makes no sense.


Well, some people think that it makes no sense that a Minstrel can hold a Purple pet at all.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:07 PM by Bigg
phixion wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:02 PM
Bigg wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 2:11 PM
The charm should be spammable as it has been on live for 18 years. They only need to hard cap the charm ability vs the lvl of the mob. Purple pets should need a certain realm rank to obtain. Instead they make some freakshow change that makes no sense.


Well, some people think that it makes no sense that a Minstrel can hold a Purple pet at all.

It is great to see new players in daoc !
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:13 PM by phixion
Bigg wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 3:07 PM
It is great to see new players in daoc !


A lot of them aren't new though, just not blinded by their favourite class.

It's hard to acknowledge that your favourite class is overpowered when it's going to affect you in the long run.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:20 PM by Zansobar
It's pretty funny how overpowered Minstels are...you could take away charm completely and then also take away stealth completely and Minstrels would still be on par with Skalds and STILL get RvR groups over Paladins and Friars...
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:41 PM by Cadebrennus
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:20 PM
It's pretty funny how overpowered Minstels are...you could take away charm completely and then also take away stealth completely and Minstrels would still be on par with Skalds and STILL get RvR groups over Paladins and Friars...

I think removing the chain armor and making them wear leather like Infils would help greatly. There is no reason that they should have better armor than Bards and the same armor as Skalds/Mercs/Warriors/etc.

Making them just a bit squishier would help melee dps do their jobs more effectively against Minstrels and provide at least a semblance of balance.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:29 PM by Zansobar
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:41 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 4:20 PM
It's pretty funny how overpowered Minstels are...you could take away charm completely and then also take away stealth completely and Minstrels would still be on par with Skalds and STILL get RvR groups over Paladins and Friars...

I think removing the chain armor and making them wear leather like Infils would help greatly. There is no reason that they should have better armor than Bards and the same armor as Skalds/Mercs/Warriors/etc.

Making them just a bit squishier would help melee dps do their jobs more effectively against Minstrels and provide at least a semblance of balance.

Yeah I wasn't calling for a specific nerf I was just pointing out how absurdly overpowered they are...of course much of this results from them being the only speed class, something that I think the devs should look to remedy across the realms. If primary speed was given to more classes it would create some new RvR group combinations and could help underplayed classes get RvR groups, while not impacting PvE balance. (Classes such as, Thanes, Friars, Paladins, Champions, etc.)
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:40 PM by Niix
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:29 PM
Yeah I wasn't calling for a specific nerf I was just pointing out how absurdly overpowered they are...of course much of this results from them being the only speed class, something that I think the devs should look to remedy across the realms. If primary speed was given to more classes it would create some new RvR group combinations and could help underplayed classes get RvR groups, while not impacting PvE balance. (Classes such as, Thanes, Friars, Paladins, Champions, etc.)

I would be careful with just dishing out more speed 5's, would Skalds still get groups over Thanes if they gave Thanes speed 5? Champion getting speed would do nothing for hib groups, need a bard anyway. The only realm it would have positive benefits is Albion, because minstrels are so useful for lots of group setups they will always find a place, but giving paladin speed 5 chant would give some hybrid groups options of paladin over minstrel (though still unsure if any would - groups with theurgist could do without minstrel (cleric, cleric, sorc, theurg, pally, arms, merc, <whatever> maybe?

Still think there are other ways to bring hybrids up to par. This entire post is about minstrels ability to charm high lvl pets without the inherent risk they should have.

Last night was in group with mentalist and his oj pet resisted and smacked him, almost turned the fight against us.... literally never seen this happen to minstrel cuz he can spam instantly without cast timer and re-charm if he isn't brain dead.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:58 PM by florin
Minstrel weapon damage is laughable compared to skald 2h hammer front load damage. Skald gets parry while mins can’t spec shield. Stealth brings a great level of survivability and is attractive to the rogue player types like me. But I’d rather have more weapon ability. So it’s a trade off with pet providing the extra damage. I agree, a rr1 minz shouldn’t be able to spam charm lvl 63 purps like 2 weeks ago but it’s something that should be attainable to a point with progression. Further nerf this class and you might as well make all speed classes skalds for every realm. Compared to skalds this class actually takes skill to play well and is fun.
Mon 3 Sep 2018 9:32 PM by ecopli
Niix wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:40 PM
Last night was in group with mentalist and his oj pet resisted and smacked him, almost turned the fight against us.... literally never seen this happen to minstrel cuz he can spam instantly without cast timer and re-charm if he isn't brain dead.

Seriously guy, you compare Mentalist Vs Minstrel ? lol
Mentalist is a dps range can be assist with an enchant for 2shoot target.
he can unmezz with quickcast; mezz, stun, heal, have a orange/red pet with rank;

you can't compare the class; compare the group realm; it's a Realm VS Realm;
Albion have minstrel and albion have friar !! Nobody play friar in group; all albion setup don't cap magic resist caster hib/mid.
so, please nerf warden and healer, disable the resist... lol
Mon 3 Sep 2018 10:15 PM by Niix
ecopli wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 9:32 PM
Niix wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:40 PM
Last night was in group with mentalist and his oj pet resisted and smacked him, almost turned the fight against us.... literally never seen this happen to minstrel cuz he can spam instantly without cast timer and re-charm if he isn't brain dead.

Seriously guy, you compare Mentalist Vs Minstrel ? lol
Mentalist is a dps range can be assist with an enchant for 2shoot target.
he can unmezz with quickcast; mezz, stun, heal, have a orange/red pet with rank;

you can't compare the class; compare the group realm; it's a Realm VS Realm;
Albion have minstrel and albion have friar !! Nobody play friar in group; all albion setup don't cap magic resist caster hib/mid.
so, please nerf warden and healer, disable the resist... lol

I am not comparing per say, I am merely making the arguement that minstrels should have the same risk factor of pet breaking that mentalists do and smacking them. Right now minstrels are just so easily able to hold high level pets that it isn’t a sufficient risk.
Mon 10 Sep 2018 11:22 PM by ecopli
ablatif buff don't works on pet minstrel :-(
Wed 12 Sep 2018 3:03 AM by Zansobar
Now that the devs are implementing a level maximum on Minstrel pets, how much more needs to be tweaked on them to get them out of overpowered status? Removing mastery of stealth? I've heard a suggestion of limiting them to leather armor instead of chain...what else could be on the list?
Wed 12 Sep 2018 9:35 AM by Tool73
MoS System here is a massiv push for minstrels, only class really benefit from not being seen via See Hidden. 40 Minstrels online on EU Prime from 150 alb overall says all to me. Yes, Minstrel NEEDS to be nerfed more, otherwise we will all play them on live, run trough empty frontiers together. Stiil easymode with some macroing hold purple pet.

Btw the new fix pets no more chase when they back into sneak is massiv nerf of the weakest of all stealthers...the hunter. Their pet should be still able to in my opinion.

But greatest problem for unbalance solo mode is and will ever be the old ra system.
Wed 12 Sep 2018 10:58 AM by gruenesschaf
The max level was already implemented quite some time ago, before the 3 second change
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