is radar an issue ? - Phoenix Freeshard

Asking because sometimes a non stealther will do a 180 and beeline when stealthed. Is it identifiable or am I being salty for dying in rvr ?

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:29 PM by Rook

Almost certainly. There's almost no way for the Devs to catch them all.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 1:50 PM by Sepplord

Awarkle wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 12:54 PM
Asking because sometimes a non stealther will do a 180 and beeline when stealthed. Is it identifiable or am I being salty for dying in rvr ?

games will always have cheaters...sadly that will always be the case

regarding stealth and radar, afaik unless you are detected the server does not send your position information out to other players, so Radar shouldn't work to look for stealthed enemies (at least that's what i heard 15years ago

server-tech might have changed

)

For your specific situation it is hard to say without seeing a video. But from personal experience, seeing cheaters everywhere often has a much bigger impact on the game and the fun as the cheaters themselves.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:05 PM by

Tyrael

Rest assured, we take radar very seriously - we have ways of seeing it. If you are using it, you will be caught.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:05 PM by Pao

Tyrael wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
Rest assured, we take radar very seriously - we have ways of seeing it. If you are using it, you will be caught.

if there is a way to let invisible fake player roam the fz, do it!
Spam the FZ with FGs and solo chars that are invisible so the radar is not useful anymore.

People use radar for PvE as well. Had grp with people that new which bosses are up.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:11 PM by Meandow

Pao wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 3:05 PM
Tyrael wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 2:05 PM
Rest assured, we take radar very seriously - we have ways of seeing it. If you are using it, you will be caught.

if there is a way to let invisible fake player roam the fz, do it!
Spam the FZ with FGs and solo chars that are invisible so the radar is not useful anymore.

People use radar for PvE as well. Had grp with people that new which bosses are up.

Aren't bosses just on a set spawn timer? I know that's the case in Avalon City at least.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:45 PM by keen

I havent seen any ban during launch so far for radar usage. Either they are not posted, noone is using it, or it is very hard to verify.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:48 PM by Zansobar

I haven't experienced it myself but a bunch of guildies that play Hib stealthers say it's a big problem as they've been bee-lined while stealthed from a long distance away multiple times in a day.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM by

gruenesschaf

People reporting radar because people came to them while they were stealthed can be ignored. And in general it should have gotten a lot better some time last week and there will also soonish be the first ban wave for that.

Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:01 PM by FFpheonix

Back in the day as a Stealther you could blip in and out of stealth and find who's using radar...

Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:23 PM by defiasbandit

Does radar work on grays?

Tue 12 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by Rook

Radar works on everything and from what I can tell unless the person that set it up is a dumb dumb it's not detectable by software means. Which would mean the devs would have a hard time finding people that are using it but not being obvious. There's some arguments in there about it being detectable if the server/client communication is encrypted but normally on emulation servers if your client is able to see it a player can sniff it. The question would be can the devs detect packets that were read before hitting the client? If someone was able to get the encryption key the server/client uses I don't think there would be anyway to detect it.

The best defense with these kinds of cheats is a vigilant staff and community. Report people who you truly believe are cheating in some way but don't witch hunt anyone. Let the Devs do their work.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 1:02 AM by waffel

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 4:48 PM
I haven't experienced it myself but a bunch of guildies that play Hib stealthers say it's a big problem as they've been bee-lined while stealthed from a long distance away multiple times in a day.

That’s not quite how radar works... The server doesn’t send character updates to the client until the server needs to. This is why back in the day you got lag spikes when groups would come into clip plane range. It’s not like the server sends you the entire zone worth of character locations constantly and your client ‘chooses’ what to show you.

It works the same for stealth. The server knows the location of both players and only sends player updates to your client when you’re deemed to be close enough to the stealther.

Now, if a player unstealths in range of someone using radar (anywhere in clip plane range) and then stealths, the radar knows that. The radar will display where that character was last and that they stealthed. Old radar (circa 2003) would show a growing circle (growing based on how long the character has been stealthed) to indicate where they ‘might’ be based on how fast they can move while stealthed.

All that being said, and knowing how DAOC and radar works, you can help yourself avoid it. If you unstealth then resealth for ANY REASON you should move. Just assume everyone could be using radar and play around it.

There is so much mis information out there which causes a lot of dumb claims. Understanding how it works helps you understand how to avoid players using it, and help you properly alert GMs of players that are playing strangely.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 8:03 AM by Cadebrennus

Stealthers are the best tools for players to detect radar use. If you're stealthed they shouldn't see you on their radar. However if you unstealth/restealth quickly (and behind a structure or tree for good measure) and you see a group or individual immediately turn towards your last unstealthed location then it's a very good chance they are using radar. Report them and let the Devs handle it from there. Just be clear with details, give them names, and report your /loc.

Radar can ruin a server or completely change the playstyle and enjoyment of everyone. The whole reason I went from Merc to Ranger on Live during classic was that radar was rampant and Mythic wasn't doing anything about it at the time. It's even worse on Live now with Broadsword at the helm. Just be thankful that the Phoenix Devs actually give a shit and are taking accusations of cheating and rule breaking seriously.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:19 PM by Tenny

No suspicions by me so far and I've done a lot of unstealthed running in frontiers. I think with all the hills and trees etc that can obstruct view here it will be pretty obvious to tell when people are using it.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:47 PM by phixion

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM
People reporting radar because people came to them while they were stealthed can be ignored. And in general it should have gotten a lot better some time last week and there will also soonish be the first ban wave for that.

So I'm not going crazy? There were legit instances of people running at stealthed players from range and hitting them out of stealth, does this mean they were cheating or what?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:18 PM by keen

phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:47 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM
People reporting radar because people came to them while they were stealthed can be ignored. And in general it should have gotten a lot better some time last week and there will also soonish be the first ban wave for that.

So I'm not going crazy? There were legit instances of people running at stealthed players from range and hitting them out of stealth, does this mean they were cheating or what?

No, as it is mentioned in the quote! Radar doesnt see stealthed players. Either a stealth lore item, pure luck, some pet issue, or true sight is still implemented if that happens.

Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:36 PM by phixion

keen wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 7:18 PM
phixion wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Feb 2019 6:47 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM
People reporting radar because people came to them while they were stealthed can be ignored. And in general it should have gotten a lot better some time last week and there will also soonish be the first ban wave for that.

So I'm not going crazy? There were legit instances of people running at stealthed players from range and hitting them out of stealth, does this mean they were cheating or what?
No, as it is mentioned in the quote! Radar doesnt see stealthed players. Either a stealth lore item, pure luck, some pet issue, or true sight is still implemented if that happens.

Then in that case, why should it have "gotten a lot better some time last week"?

What changed? What was the problem?

Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:42 PM by

gruenesschaf

The general radar issue should have gotten better some time last week as there was a change

Wed 13 Feb 2019 9:45 PM by Ardri

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Feb 2019 5:31 PM
People reporting radar because people came to them while they were stealthed can be ignored. And in general it should have gotten a lot better some time last week and there will also soonish be the first ban wave for that.

Thu 14 Feb 2019 6:55 PM by Pao

Today I notice something I found a sb levelling and I saw him for a sec in clip range. I went closer and unstealthed him, he was afk. So he didn't stealthed, maybe there is a bug that show stealthed player for a sec when you come in clip range. That maybe would explain people running to stealthed player when using radar.

Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:44 AM by raysobi

I quit DAOC on live because of radar as well. Hopefully, GM can prevent this issue .

Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:03 AM by sprinkle

I leveled a hunter to 20 and went to thid then I quit him

radar is so hilariously bad people run right toward you at unbelieveable ranges. the temped minstrels were the worst

but every daoc server is like this and it will never change

Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:42 AM by Expfighter

i've had full groups of mids and hibs be running and pass me only to have them turn directly at me and weave back and forth as they go up the hill towards me and pbaoe right where i was when they turned!

yea radar Is running!

Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:23 AM by Sepplord

you guys realise that radar cannot detect you when stealthed ...

whining about cheaters is often worse than the actual cheaterproblem because people like to jump to the cheater accusations faster and faster, and suddenly there are supposedly more cheaters ingame than accounts created

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:42 AM
i've had full groups of mids and hibs be running and pass me only to have them turn directly at me and weave back and forth as they go up the hill towards me and pbaoe right where i was when they turned!

yea radar Is running!

That sounds like sarcasm, but someone might still miss that, read it and believe you are also confirming cheaters. One more person now running around seeing cheaters everywhere himself too

Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:46 AM by Topas

raysobi wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Feb 2019 3:44 AM
I quit DAOC on live because of radar as well. Hopefully, GM can prevent this issue .

Same here! Radar using and cross realming are the death of daoc.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:58 AM by Druth

Radar will always be an issue.

Even if radar was erradicated, completely, people would still blame radar for dying.

Do people radar?
Of course they do. People will do anything they can, and come up with all sorts of lame excuses for doing so, to get an advantage.
"We just want 8v8 fights, and avoid zerg".
"We just want to find action".
Etc etc...
What they mean is: "I'm an rp whore and will do anything to get them".

Do they catch all that do it? No, but eventually they'll likely get most of them, and then the rest of us can enjoy the show while they cry in court.

I remember one idiot on Uthgard who streamed, and you could see the radar on his screen, he quickly turned it off. But damage was done, and of course he only used it that one time... rare to see such a pathetic attempt to avoid punishment.

Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:01 PM by Expfighter

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:23 AM
you guys realise that radar cannot detect you when stealthed ...

whining about cheaters is often worse than the actual cheaterproblem because people like to jump to the cheater accusations faster and faster, and suddenly there are supposedly more cheaters ingame than accounts created

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:42 AM
i've had full groups of mids and hibs be running and pass me only to have them turn directly at me and weave back and forth as they go up the hill towards me and pbaoe right where i was when they turned!

yea radar Is running!

That sounds like sarcasm, but someone might still miss that, read it and believe you are also confirming cheaters. One more person now running around seeing cheaters everywhere himself too

no i dont see cheaters everywhere, but when what i described happens yes that is cheating 100%!

oh yes forgot to mention, i am 50 and stealthed at this time! yea CHEATING! they were reported!

and if you don't think radar detects stealthers then you are dumb as they come! daoc skilla did, it would alert a user when stealthers were around and give them a general direction!

Tue 19 Feb 2019 9:25 PM by Sepplord

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 6:01 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 8:23 AM
you guys realise that radar cannot detect you when stealthed ...

whining about cheaters is often worse than the actual cheaterproblem because people like to jump to the cheater accusations faster and faster, and suddenly there are supposedly more cheaters ingame than accounts created

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Tue 19 Feb 2019 12:42 AM
i've had full groups of mids and hibs be running and pass me only to have them turn directly at me and weave back and forth as they go up the hill towards me and pbaoe right where i was when they turned!

yea radar Is running!

That sounds like sarcasm, but someone might still miss that, read it and believe you are also confirming cheaters. One more person now running around seeing cheaters everywhere himself too

no i dont see cheaters everywhere, but when what i described happens yes that is cheating 100%!

oh yes forgot to mention, i am 50 and stealthed at this time! yea CHEATING! they were reported!

and if you don't think radar detects stealthers then you are dumb as they come! daoc skilla did, it would alert a user when stealthers were around and give them a general direction!

Oh...you were serious...that's kind off sad.

The Thing is, if a group runs through you they can see you for a glimpse. When they turn it makes sense that they come back. It also makes sense to weave back and forth when you are searching for a stealther (Not really though if you had a programm telling you where the stealther is). It makes also sense to bomb when you get near the stealther because they probably saw you again.

Wed 20 Feb 2019 12:26 AM by waffel

I like how on page 2 I make a post explaining how radar (and the server) works and a few posts later you have multiple posts with misinformation about being seen at clip range while stealthed.

That isn’t how radar works. The server doesn’t send that kind of information to the client. Almost 20 years later and people still can’t grasps how the game works.

Wed 20 Feb 2019 12:52 AM by sabyrtuth

Skilla did show a yellow circle supposedly if a stealther was in range and it seemed somewhat accurate from what I recall but that was over 15 years ago.. I know their exact location isn't sent.

Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:20 PM by Joc

Radar has NEVER been able to see through stealth. The only time it will ping the location of someone in stealth would be if you yourself can physically see them because you are in range.

As a poster previously said, the data from your client is not being sent while in stealth about your location until you are in range to be seen (which is extremely short) .

Even packet sniffing radar detection doesn't show stealthed players.

Wed 20 Feb 2019 4:39 PM by Dimir

Radar would tell you only that a stealther was near (like maybe 500 radius?) because that's when the server would probably start updating your client.

I play a stealther and I don't think there is much or any radar use. I've seen people bitching in region "blah blah group clearly radars" and then I've seen that set 8v8 group completely miss an enemy pug only a few minutes later. If they had radar they would have stomped them, there was no reason not to.