How to shift RvR to being more keep taking/defending oriented?

Everything seems to be about the zerg here but its all open field. I miss the days on live of charging in after the door or wall was down only to die to a ton of shrooms you didnt see. Or charge up the stairs towards the Lord only to watch half the zerg instantly die because no one noticed all the Ice Wizards, Warlocks, or Mana Enchanters stacked up. Keep defense can be a lot of fun so why do people here just flat out refuse to take keeps? Why would people rather just fight out in the open? I mean they might as well just remove every tower and keep and hell every RvR zone. Lets just have one big ass open zone where everyone can port to by the 100s and fight in an open field that doesnt even have the first tree or rock.

Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:05 AM by keen

Old frontiers keeps have a bad design, so keep fights will be fun for your nostalgia for a week and then you will wish open field fights back.

Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:07 AM by defiasbandit

keen wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 5:05 AM
Old frontiers keeps have a bad design, so keep fights will be fun for your nostalgia for a week and then you will wish open field fights back.

keen. why so serious

Sat 16 Mar 2019 8:17 AM by Luluko

there are plenty of fights at walls, way too many ...

Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:34 PM by Connavar

Let us port to our owned keeps and remove the flag porting. I guess then will be more keep raiding to get the port option. It will also help to have the fights on a bigger area.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:43 AM by Mauriac

a perfect world would be to see some version of NF keeps on the OF maps.

Personally, the more the current rvr system goes on with flags/porting/domination/task zones the more i dislike the rvr action. It's been said before but atm it's basically just team deathmatch / call of camelot or whatever you want to call it but it isn't DAoC. Relics and keeps mean nothing and most days is the same old zergfest in the task zone, dead everywhere else. Maybe if you have speed6 you can roam and find something otherwise you're looking at like 1k rps an hour since you either wont find anyone or when you do it will be an 8man or more.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:28 AM by CronU

Sorry but imo the OF keeps are not designed for big Keepfights / defending Keeps.

There is just 1 Entrance, so if there is a Zerg of 4-5fg at the Frontdoor, you have to pass the whole zerg physically to enter the keep.
No chance to get inside aside a lucky sos, where non of the enemys is hitting you.
That makes keep defending, if you are not already inside a keep for the whole evening waiting for you time to shine, close to impossible.

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:43 AM
Personally, the more the current rvr system goes on with flags/porting/domination/task zones the more i dislike the rvr action. It's been said before but atm it's basically just team deathmatch / call of camelot or whatever you want to call it but it isn't DAoC. Relics and keeps mean nothing and most days is the same old zergfest in the task zone, dead everywhere else. Maybe if you have speed6 you can roam and find something otherwise you're looking at like 1k rps an hour since you either wont find anyone or when you do it will be an 8man or more.

Well with the Tasksystem is better then without the tasksystem, tbh.
Its quite well designed, trying to please alot of playstyles, 8man, smallmens, zergs and solos.
Of course you cant please the playstyle of every single player, cause there are as many playstyles as there are players, but you simply have to play at those times, where the action matches your playstyle.
I wont rvr on weeksends anymore. Just zerg, wallcamping 24/7, just bad action overall. Not pleasing my playstyle and just makes me angry. So i stopped to rvr on weeksends.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 11:09 AM by Luluko

CronU wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:28 AM
Sorry but imo the OF keeps are not designed for big Keepfights / defending Keeps.

There is just 1 Entrance, so if there is a Zerg of 4-5fg at the Frontdoor, you have to pass the whole zerg physically to enter the keep.
No chance to get inside aside a lucky sos, where non of the enemys is hitting you.
That makes keep defending, if you are not already inside a keep for the whole evening waiting for you time to shine, close to impossible.

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 3:43 AM
Personally, the more the current rvr system goes on with flags/porting/domination/task zones the more i dislike the rvr action. It's been said before but atm it's basically just team deathmatch / call of camelot or whatever you want to call it but it isn't DAoC. Relics and keeps mean nothing and most days is the same old zergfest in the task zone, dead everywhere else. Maybe if you have speed6 you can roam and find something otherwise you're looking at like 1k rps an hour since you either wont find anyone or when you do it will be an 8man or more.

Well with the Tasksystem is better then without the tasksystem, tbh.
Its quite well designed, trying to please alot of playstyles, 8man, smallmens, zergs and solos.
Of course you cant please the playstyle of every single player, cause there are as many playstyles as there are players, but you simply have to play at those times, where the action matches your playstyle.
I wont rvr on weeksends anymore. Just zerg, wallcamping 24/7, just bad action overall. Not pleasing my playstyle and just makes me angry. So i stopped to rvr on weeksends.

yeah I also tend to logg off at certain times because its just getting too zergy and always getting insta stunned by minsts on a shaman and blowing up thank to the 10 casters right behind him is getting old fast. Especially when you cant leave through your wall because its camped and your realm doesnt have enough people to push through all the ae flowing arround there. Quite a shame if you cant even enable port.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 4:05 PM by k3mra

im not into rvr till now ... are there flags inside keeps?

if not i think that would be a good way to get some keep fights.
of cause the attacking team shouldnt be able to port to the flag (:

i know back in the days i could often come inside a keep that getting attacked by a zerg when coming from behind the keep and run close to the wall on the door side.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 5:06 PM by paul_g

Current task system promotes a zergfest and needs to be rethought. It isn’t DAOC RvR it’s as someone mentioned a team deathmatch with little to no upside.
Just curious to what realm most the Devs play here?
As I personally think this servers longevity will trump Uthgards, something needs to be done about the outlandish overpopulation for factions at any given time in zone. A 10%rp bump to the underdog falls short as a solution.

Sun 17 Mar 2019 8:08 PM by easytoremember

Post is a bit messy: I have a disdain for relying on rams in small groups
Further I dislike 1fg opening doors fast (but understand freeshard pop making this reasonable)
---

Knocking doors open with a mob of melee is more satisfying than sitting in a ram
Being on the inside of the doors and hearing a lot of attackers on the door is more intimidating
Door health dropping gradually rather than in slow chunks is more pressing

•Style damage should warrant the sacrifice of endurance compared to unstyled swings on doors
a)resolves theurg spam throwing off door time too significantly and discourages non-melee piling onto the door with their sticks a bit
b)observable impact for those hitting the door (a round of swings lowering door hp, not individual) so you're not falling asleep autoattacking

•Spell damage- unsure
Ideally an augment warranting the sacrifice of some power, but not significant enough to be the primary means of opening a door (because OOP)
•Shrooms afaik don't target doors

•Manning a ram should be a risk with big payoff, not necessity (standard keep)
a)ram must be filled to full capacity to use
d)as usual the ram is juicy AoE magnet

•In the case of relic doors, rams should remain the primary means of damage, while the innermost door is melee

When the zerg rolls in this would probably open doors too quickly so *reduce damage output of players beating the door at X amount of players on the door (example: 30 hitting door, first 20 players hitting do full damage entire time, extra 10 are contributing less damage)
The "logic" for such could be the finite amount of places to hit the door
(outright negating damage from players over the limit is a bad idea)
•Pets won't contribute to player soft cap(s), they originate from spells after all

•The standard opening time is achieved with ~2fg
Average Guards remain managable by 1fg on their own

With that
a) rams become big incentive to add on with larger groups
b) huge zerg does not insta-open doors with melee

Getting the numbers to line up for making these conditions the case would be a headache

imo get rid of mini rams, they look dumb

How long should the 'standard' door opening take?
I don't know
Long enough that defenders are delving door hp
Short enough that it's not an ML encounter
Long enough that realm enemies "in the area" interfere
Short enough that guild-warned ports from pk do not reach
^Mind you, there are TWO doors^

How long should inner relic door (melee) take?
Roughly 60% the time as one outer relic door

Named Relic Guards (keep ownership)
Someone mentioned this earlier, they're not 'tough' enough atm. There is little consequence for skipping straight to relic take because the guards get pulled away and killed

KEEP LORDS? No opinion

The keeps themselves:
If the models are present on your patch throw in a few of the low level BG NF keeps in some spots- namely Thidranki CK I think it was, but keep the walls invulnerable
Given the OF models don't change with upgrade, there's no obligation to make the NF model grow either

The larger/higher level NF keeps are disgusting and ugly though
Of course if their appearance is too jarring in the enviroments then don't bother considering it

Mon 18 Mar 2019 5:30 PM by Ketzstar

Raiding keeps should award MUCH more feathers to be an alternative for the Galla/TG/Sidi-crowd.

2-4 trashmobs in the dungeon give as many feathers as a keep lord (as far as I can remember from the last keep raids). So I'd say, make it worth the raiders' time and increase the feather drops dramatically.

10x as much isn't so unreasonable, in my opinion. Defenders should get an appropriate bonus.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 8:23 PM by Ardri

Connavar wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:34 PM
Let us port to our owned keeps and remove the flag porting. I guess then will be more keep raiding to get the port option. It will also help to have the fights on a bigger area.

Yes. Haven't touched a keep since the tasks were overhauled. A keep fight would be cool every once in awhile.

Tue 19 Mar 2019 3:05 AM by Sepphiroth75

Ardri wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 8:23 PM
Connavar wrote: ↑
Sat 16 Mar 2019 2:34 PM
Let us port to our owned keeps and remove the flag porting. I guess then will be more keep raiding to get the port option. It will also help to have the fights on a bigger area.

Yes. Haven't touched a keep since the tasks were overhauled. A keep fight would be cool every once in awhile.

Same here. No reason to take keeps on this server. That is one thing new frontiers did corrrect when first implemented

Tue 19 Mar 2019 12:54 PM by schaedling

I would suggest to reduce the max. amount of rams simultaneously useable at one door to 1.

Maybe reduce/remove the dmg bonus per person in ram to only reduced swing-speed.

The idea of putting a porter in certain keeps sounds nice.

The Guards are a joke. Respawn ?

Wed 20 Mar 2019 2:00 AM by cloudbased

CronU wrote: ↑
Sun 17 Mar 2019 10:28 AM
Sorry but imo the OF keeps are not designed for big Keepfights / defending Keeps.

There is just 1 Entrance, so if there is a Zerg of 4-5fg at the Frontdoor, you have to pass the whole zerg physically to enter the keep.
No chance to get inside aside a lucky sos, where non of the enemys is hitting you.
That makes keep defending, if you are not already inside a keep for the whole evening waiting for you time to shine, close to impossible.

I enjoyed many big keep fights back in classic, pre-SI even. You didn't have to pass through a zerg of 4-5fgs on the front door because once your guild was notified that the keep was under attack you could log off your PvE or crafting toon and log onto your character camped inside the keep. The problem wasn't the OF keep design, it was the worst patch (IMO) that ported any camped toons out of a keep the moment the door took damage. It is a damn shame to see that's the case here as it is a deal breaker for trying DAOC again. Not only was this better for defending, but it also meant that when you attacked a keep you were going to get an RvR experience -- not a PvE experience of killing guards and a lord, undefended.

Wed 20 Mar 2019 3:24 AM by waffel

Yep. I remember back before ToA but after SI that claimed keeps were a big deal. Guilds would defend them and log in their chars to defend it. Most of my most fond memories of daoc RvR involved keep takes/defends and the battle inside. The feeling of anxiety as the door health dropped and you knew they would be inside was fun. Fighting in the courtyard, the walls, the final stand at the lord. Wish we could have that back.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 10:58 AM by genchaos9

waffel wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Mar 2019 3:24 AM
Yep. I remember back before ToA but after SI that claimed keeps were a big deal. Guilds would defend them and log in their chars to defend it. Most of my most fond memories of daoc RvR involved keep takes/defends and the battle inside. The feeling of anxiety as the door health dropped and you knew they would be inside was fun. Fighting in the courtyard, the walls, the final stand at the lord. Wish we could have that back.

With the recent changes, it looks like things are moving in that direction.