Bob's a window dragger.. - Phoenix Freeshard

Don't be like Bob, even if he isn't very good at it.
https://youtu.be/jjUJIVhvrpI

Thu 2 May 2019 11:58 AM by florin

Reminds me of seeing Niix play

Thu 2 May 2019 1:49 PM by Kiavik

yeah,

i did appeal, for the same player.

i will link this post.

Thank you

Thu 2 May 2019 4:36 PM by Sleepwell

Not defending or accusing, but how can you tell (if you can), the difference between dragging a window and server lag or ld? When in a group and stuck to a leader, if that leader goes ld, their character does this exactly.. we call it rubber banding. You might claim window dragging, but this is basically just running from point a to point b with zero incoming. I would agree that a lot of people cheese it up and dislike losing so much that they do in fact window drag, or create lag by several other possible scenarios. But i will also entertain the fact that just as many people dislike losing so much that if they do, they claim that to be beat, someone must have been window dragging, etc. I lag more on this server than any i've ever played on, and my connection is better than it has ever been. It is extremely obvious when the server has been up for a while and the memory leaks are showing their teeth.

Thu 2 May 2019 4:58 PM by Roto23

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 4:36 PM
Not defending or accusing, but how can you tell (if you can), the difference between dragging a window and server lag or ld? When in a group and stuck to a leader, if that leader goes ld, their character does this exactly.. we call it rubber banding. You might claim window dragging, but this is basically just running from point a to point b with zero incoming. I would agree that a lot of people cheese it up and dislike losing so much that they do in fact window drag, or create lag by several other possible scenarios. But i will also entertain the fact that just as many people dislike losing so much that if they do, they claim that to be beat, someone must have been window dragging, etc. I lag more on this server than any i've ever played on, and my connection is better than it has ever been. It is extremely obvious when the server has been up for a while and the memory leaks are showing their teeth.

Look at the instant he starts window dragging. That is how you can tell. Do you really think that he was running fine and then suddenly just after pa he get life saving lag to land whatever

Thu 2 May 2019 5:15 PM by Sleepwell

Do i think that? I don't think one way or the other. Know when the most lag is generated for me?, on inc. Could be my settings or otherwise, but to be an old game, a lot of lag is generated on incoming. If you based your assumption on that, then i'm sure 90% of the times ive died, people say i window drag. Window drag on every TG raid im on too apparently. Again, i'm not defending him, but i'm also cautious about accusing unless i have pretty good proof. IMO there should be a similarly harsh punishment for falsely accusing folks of cheating as for the cheater themselves. I'm all for the ban hammer swinging hard if people are cheating the system, i just feel like its really hard to prove unless he's dumb enough to have a youtube video of him dragging his window or taking a phone vid of him spamming his screenshot button while he's trying to avoid x, y, or z.

Thu 2 May 2019 5:16 PM by Turano

had the same thing against a warrior yesterday, really weird

Thu 2 May 2019 7:29 PM by Niix

florin wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 11:58 AM
Reminds me of seeing Niix play

What lmao

Fri 3 May 2019 9:24 AM by Sepplord

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 5:15 PM
Do i think that? I don't think one way or the other. Know when the most lag is generated for me?, on inc. Could be my settings or otherwise, but to be an old game, a lot of lag is generated on incoming. If you based your assumption on that, then i'm sure 90% of the times ive died, people say i window drag. Window drag on every TG raid im on too apparently. Again, i'm not defending him, but i'm also cautious about accusing unless i have pretty good proof. IMO there should be a similarly harsh punishment for falsely accusing folks of cheating as for the cheater themselves. I'm all for the ban hammer swinging hard if people are cheating the system, i just feel like its really hard to prove unless he's dumb enough to have a youtube video of him dragging his window or taking a phone vid of him spamming his screenshot button while he's trying to avoid x, y, or z.

Fully agree, the cheater-screamers are almost worse than cheaters themselves for some games (for the overall health of a game, not the individuals themselves...cheaters can go to hell, while the cheater-screamers are just annoying).
If someone is hammering their screenshot button that should be easily detectable by devs if they investigate someone.
"normal" windowdragging requires a bit more supervision, but if someone is constantly abusing this the evidence can be gathered to clear out reasonable doubt.

Aboves video could be anthing, from blatant exploiting to random laggs... Wouldn't someone windowdragging also use it to gain a bit of a gap to kite and build up range?
Why take the risk of dying anyways, if you can windowdrag for a safekill?

There are things that clearly show an exploiters, even if it is the first occurence...this case though isn't one of those

Fri 3 May 2019 9:51 AM by Kiavik

ye ye, no clear prove but, the player in the video also did that to me. same thing, started to lag after i was in melee, stopped when i started casting :rotfl: :rotfl:

Fri 3 May 2019 10:36 AM by Sepplord

Kiavik wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 9:51 AM
ye ye, no clear prove but, the player in the video also did that to me. same thing, started to lag after i was in melee, stopped when i started casting :rotfl: :rotfl:

then appeal him. I am all for appealing suspicious people to the staff so they can investigate.
My intention in my previous comment wasn't to say that players need to collect foolproof evidence before appealling someone.

Starting a witchhunt on the forums though should not be done (imo not even with apparently foolproof evidence). We all get told when someone is caught cheating in the ban forum. So there is no need to spread accusations outside of an official report (imo)

Fri 3 May 2019 10:42 AM by Chopsticks

This isn't a witch hunt, it's just one of the times someone cheeky was caught doing it, also the only reason i posted this was because it's the 3rd case I've seen him do it.
It's not about getting anyone banned, it's just about less people thinking they can take the piss and the weak and inexperienced allow it through empathy.
Sometimes people do shitty things, sometimes they don't.
Also you've heard another account of it happening to a random person totally unrelated involving the same player.. Were not trying to prove the existence of alien life mate, just someone being a dick.

Fri 3 May 2019 10:49 AM by Sepplord

Chopsticks wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 10:42 AM
This isn't a witch hunt, it's just one of the times someone cheeky was caught doing it, also the only reason i posted this was because it's the 3rd case I've seen him do it.
It's not about getting anyone banned, it's just about less people thinking they can take the piss and the weak and inexperienced allow it through empathy.
Sometimes people do shitty things, sometimes they don't.

the thing is though...that this is not proof of someone that was caught doing it
so, for all we know, this is a witchhunt

And why would you not want someone banned if he really does that? That message does the opposite of "less people thinking they can take the piss". Wouldn't a ban be a much bigger detriment than a forum post?
I would rather see Bob investigated and banned if he cheats/exploits than him just being shamed on the forum.

No matter how you spin it, Bob cheating or not, making a forum thread with a singular event shaming him is not a good solution

Fri 3 May 2019 10:55 AM by Chopsticks

I honestly don't think being a bit of a dick is worth a ban, I'd be more than happy if it stops him from doing it in the future as the first two occasions it's happened I gave the benefit of the doubt.
He didn't win the fight, there is no salt. Maybe this guy will think twice now about doing it in an age were everyone has a "dash cam"

Fri 3 May 2019 11:40 AM by Kiavik

yes i did already appeal, hope he will stop doing that with the gm's controlling him.

the fun is, that, he died also to me.

(-:

Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM by Vkejai

I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Fri 3 May 2019 12:23 PM by Sleepwell

Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM
I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Because they aren't as flexible as Ron Jeremy

... many won't get that reference, but those that do, i hope you got as much of a chuckle out of it as i did...

Fri 3 May 2019 12:35 PM by Sepplord

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 12:23 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM
I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Because they aren't as flexible as Ron Jeremy ... many won't get that reference, but those that do, i hope you got as much of a chuckle out of it as i did...

hmm, now i feel like i am missing out

Vkejai wrote: I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Most don't really. But many have a shortcut which they can press and then it records the last few seconds/minutes of gameplay. If you have a NVDIA graphicscard you get those features built in with GeForce Experience, just have to activate Shadowplay and configure your shortcuts (For example i have configured Alt-F10 to save the last two minutes).
I am sure there are similar options with Radeon graphics, or just indipendant software solutions available.

PS: if anyone can tell me how to make Shadowplay not record my Discord-sound (or at least include my own voice) shoot me a PM pls

Fri 3 May 2019 12:41 PM by Sleepwell

Here's my dilemma:

Do i think window dragging, (button spamming, macro hammering, spamming your 14 music downloads on inc) happens to encourage lag (casting, warping, etc). OF course. Can i prove it? Thats extremely hard. For "this" game in 2019 to be affected like it is by terrain load, or rendering, or a myriad of other reason lag occurs baffles me. People can force lag sure, but they are basically manipulating game mechanics (spamming the screenshot button) to do so... similar to ... you know... using game mechanics to perform a side or back style that should be impossible. The people who are very good at knowing their computer builds, or their speeds, or when they lag use that to their advantage. Take that into consideration and add client side and server side lag and you have a recipe for an awesome run-through side stun or run-through, face, backstun. Window dragging or the other 500 scenarios that allow someone to cheat (lag jumping to the top of DF stairs for instance) should be a bannable offense. If you encounter someone who lags when you perf them is hard for me to determine. When you perf someone, you instantly create a small window of lag due to again... rendering. Should it happen in a 18 year old game, with todays down/up speeds? No, not in my opinion. I do not get that same lag in Live though... so i can't put my finger on it. I have a very fast up to date rig. I have decent internet (200 mbps down/ 10mbps up) speed, but i constantly lag on Pheonix (not on Live). Client lag? Server Lag? Latency? Who knows. I doubt that many people who win vs these so called window draggers turn them in though. Our guild group ran into an obvious macro team the other night. We all got a good laugh out of it in discord. The discussion began... "Lets report him"... then almost immediate several of us said "why", we just got 8 easy kills . If we had died to the macro team, im sure our tune would have changed. Do those who kill the accused window draggers still /report?, or are they happy with free rps if they get the kill?

Fri 3 May 2019 12:59 PM by Kiavik

it's not about the win(!!!!!!!!!!!), it's about rules.

i don't like to play with cheaters, never.

Fri 3 May 2019 1:21 PM by Sleepwell

Which specific rule are you referring to though? Its too vague. Nothing says "don't lag". Nothing says don't "window drag". It DOES say you cannot alter your client

Thats the point i was making. The rules are vague enough that someone who says that client side lag gives someone an apparent or even confirmed advantage is dangerous. Client side lag also applies to what i stated in my previous comment. Many use that to their advantage to manipulate the run through styles. I've heard friends say in the past that they can get their (run through) side-stun off so much easier if they are downloading music while playing. I can only assume the slight bit of client side lag that the music download creates helps them with their timing. Is that cheating? Not clear per the current rules. Its cheesy AF and i'm not a fan of it, but its also nearly impossible for the devs/CSR's to prove.

Fri 3 May 2019 1:29 PM by Kiavik

it's not impossible to prove, needs only attention by gms.

Fri 3 May 2019 1:31 PM by keen

Congratulations, you have PAed someone that was alt-tab running.

Fri 3 May 2019 1:33 PM by Sleepwell

Kiavik wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 1:29 PM
it's not impossible to prove, needs only attention by gms.

I'll ask again. What are they "proving"? Which rule are u referring to? I'm not asking out of malice. I truly am interested in your interpretation. I do not see a clear rule about lag, or creating lag. If that is the case, then using client or server side lag to your advantage is extremely dangerous. Some might say its using game mechainics as an "exploit" which is a bannable offense.

Fri 3 May 2019 1:50 PM by Kiavik

sorry for my english:

if this was the "case" my interpretation is "exploit" (and it's not based on the video but is for the conversation).

like when you hack something , you make bad/take advantage use of something related to the mechanic itself.

do we need rules for every thing we live? no, because this toxic/cheese/childish behavior lead to a worse experience for all.

compared to life it's very easy here to play clean because things are not so complicated.

who knows what goes through the mind of some people...

hope is clear.

Fri 3 May 2019 2:06 PM by Chopsticks

Let people form their own opinion, I for one cannot be bothered to keep going back and forth with what feels like a mitigation lawyer.. I have enough experience in game to know exactly what happened, this now being the 4th time said player has done it. Anyway, let it go and people can take what they want from it.
Our culture is full of people so full of empathy that it creates opportunities for people to take advantage of others in any way because people justify their actions with such mitigating BS even if the truth slaps them in the face.
What started out as a bit of fun has now become tedious with a millennials view on law and order.

Fri 3 May 2019 2:08 PM by Chopsticks

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 12:23 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM
I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....
Because girlfriend won't let me

Because they aren't as flexible as Ron Jeremy ... many won't get that reference, but those that do, i hope you got as much of a chuckle out of it as i did...

/smile Also you may have messed up a few peoples internet search history with that one bud ^

Fri 3 May 2019 2:09 PM by Roto23

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Thu 2 May 2019 5:15 PM
Do i think that? I don't think one way or the other. Know when the most lag is generated for me?, on inc. Could be my settings or otherwise, but to be an old game, a lot of lag is generated on incoming. If you based your assumption on that, then i'm sure 90% of the times ive died, people say i window drag. Window drag on every TG raid im on too apparently. Again, i'm not defending him, but i'm also cautious about accusing unless i have pretty good proof. IMO there should be a similarly harsh punishment for falsely accusing folks of cheating as for the cheater themselves. I'm all for the ban hammer swinging hard if people are cheating the system, i just feel like its really hard to prove unless he's dumb enough to have a youtube video of him dragging his window or taking a phone vid of him spamming his screenshot button while he's trying to avoid x, y, or z.

The lag i get on inc is a dip in framerate, not people rubberbanding. Movement is done client sideso ur character turns when u tell him to turn. On the cheaters computer he was headed in a certain direction at a certain speed and that is reported to the non cheater as direction and speed and a location. The cheaters avatar on the non cheaters computer will continue in that direction and speed untill the server reports other wise. Wait a minute!! Thr server is no longer getting packets from the cheater. The server sends an update to the non cheater that he is moving in same direction and same speed but at this old location. In the one second that passed the cheaters avatar on the non cheaters computer has moved to far from the servers location and a correction happens on the non cheaters computer. Moving the cheater back 20 feet. This continues untill the cheater stops window dragging and sends packets and before he LD's. To me this is so obviously a different behavior then inc lag.

Fri 3 May 2019 2:13 PM by Sleepwell

Kiavik wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 1:50 PM
sorry for my english:

if this was the "case" my interpretation is "exploit" (and it's not based on the video but is for the conversation).

like when you hack something , you make bad/take advantage use of something related to the mechanic itself.

do we need rules for every thing we live? no, because this toxic/cheese/childish behavior lead to a worse experience for all.

compared to life it's very easy here to play clean because things are not so complicated.

who knows what goes through the mind of some people...

hope is clear.

Its not clear. We do not need rules for "everything", just for specifics. Is "creating lag" an exploit, if so, then make it so, and make it bannable. Is proving you created lag hard? In my opinion yes. My friends downloading songs to create lag so they can gain an advantage is the best example i can give. Devs and CSR's could not possibly say "if we catch you downloading songs while playing the game, you're obviously trying to create lag to gain an advantage".... in my friends case.. thats exactly what they did... at least in my opinion.

I'll say it like this. And i'm wanting your opinion. Maybe devs will chime in if they find this thread interesting enough.

1. Is creating lag an exploit?
2. Is using lag that is created by streaming (netflix, music downloads, 14 kids soaking up bandwitdth) creating said exploit?
3. If you are aware that lag allows you a better chance to land styles that you typically would not land an exploit?

My problem is we do not all play with the same hardware/speed, etc

a. on same model generic rigs. Some are fast... some are dated.. some are dinosaurs
b. we do not all play on the same isp, with the same speed, with the same latency
c. ISP suck

I will give another example of how i perceive this as a common problem that cannot be isolated to window dragging.

TG raids on mid. Months ago, TG raids were enormous (from my perspective). 400 people on a tg raid and my 200meg connection ate shit. Raid leaders recommended helms off, cloaks off... names off.. etc.. all to reduce server or client lag. If its thats simple to manipulate the amount of lag by reducing how much stuff is needing to be rendered on a game that is this old, and on connections that are faster that anyone 18 years ago could imagine... well .. i have to blame game mechanics before i blame an individual for cheating. Cheaters are there... they should all be banned... i love the naming and shaming... but false accusations should also be dealt with. If you watch your friend window drag, have a video of it, can send it in... do it.. get him banned. If you lose a fight to someone because they rubber band all over your screen, maybe they did cheat, maybe they didnt. I'm saying it is not as easy to prove as you might make it sound

Fri 3 May 2019 2:35 PM by Raec

Dont realy need a 3rd party tool to drag around, lagswitchers button or even a ethernet cable fast unplug / plug could do the trick. Need to keep an eye on the players and check the frequency of the `lag spikes`..

Good analysis from roto23

Fri 3 May 2019 3:26 PM by Kiavik

roto as a network engineer i agree with your analysis

.

sleep the example of download should not be possibile with the internet connection nowadays.
don't know where do you live but , in general, unless you land a DDoS today connection doesn't have the problem of bandwitdth
but:
i watch the contest, how many times and in which moment this happen, as raec said and as i said before, needs only "human" attention to some players to understand.

for me it's easy, just track and record him every time he/she plays, in a long period you will know everything about his play, the good and the bad.

Fri 3 May 2019 4:23 PM by Sleepwell

ill ask a 3rd time. Is it against the rules? or is it just being a dick? I can agree that either way, its not good for the environment of the game, but i cannot find a rule that states against it.

And... im east coast US (North Carolina) , and you're right.. in todays internet environment, there should not be lag like there is, but it is there. Unless you experience it, then you cannot comment on it. In large keep battles,(... well what used to be large.. lets say 20+ vs 20+ now) i lag. I do NOT lag on live. Can't say if its server location, latency between my location and the server, etc. It has an impact. Nightly i have several guildies who live East coast, west coast, Canada, etc, who will sometimes disconnect on incoming. Maybe you live in a location not affected, but i am not the only one who is

Fri 3 May 2019 4:28 PM by Sleepwell

Chopsticks wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 2:06 PM
Let people form their own opinion, I for one cannot be bothered to keep going back and forth with what feels like a mitigation lawyer.. I have enough experience in game to know exactly what happened, this now being the 4th time said player has done it. Anyway, let it go and people can take what they want from it.
Our culture is full of people so full of empathy that it creates opportunities for people to take advantage of others in any way because people justify their actions with such mitigating BS even if the truth slaps them in the face.
What started out as a bit of fun has now become tedious with a millennials view on law and order.

I'm not saying you're not entitled to your opinion, and maybe i'm not the one your pointing to with your comment, but i think you're right.. .just depends on perspective. The view on law and order... i despise a cheater... ban em ell... but i despise a panty-waist (he beat me so he must be cheating) whiner as much. Not suggesting anyone is one or the other. The majority of whiners have such a complex though, that they think someone has to be cheating to beat them. I say you have sound advice, let people form their own opinion. If you think they cheat... continue to report them. IF they dont get banned, then either the devs/csrs do not think they cheated, they couldnt prove it, or it doesnt fit into todays "you hurt my feelings" so you have to go to timeout meta.

Fri 3 May 2019 4:42 PM by Chopsticks

It's not about getting anyone banned, only way that could happen is if he's using something that could be detected client side, he comes out and admits it, or we have a video of him actually doing it from his pov.
It is about him thinking twice about doing it in the future..
Once is chance, twice is coincidence, 3 times is a pattern, 4 times and beyond becomes the rule in which he has shown me he'll keep doing. Just hope this makes him think before he does it again.

Fri 3 May 2019 4:52 PM by Vkejai

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 12:23 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM
I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Because they aren't as flexible as Ron Jeremy ... many won't get that reference, but those that do, i hope you got as much of a chuckle out of it as i did...

Hehe . I've actually met Ron in JFK airport some years ago. Real nice guy. He ain't as flexible as he once was .

Fri 3 May 2019 4:57 PM by Sleepwell

Chopsticks wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 4:42 PM
It's not about getting anyone banned, only way that could happen is if he's using something that could be detected client side, he comes out and admits it, or we have a video of him actually doing it from his pov.
It is about him thinking twice about doing it in the future..
Once is chance, twice is coincidence, 3 times is a pattern, 4 times and beyond becomes the rule in which he has shown me he'll keep doing. Just hope this makes him think before he does it again.

I can accept that :-)

I've /reported with screenshots a necromancer who continues to park his pet in mmg in emain and he's yet to be banned, so who knows.

As far as coincidence goes.. .again.. dont take this as me making an excuse for anyone. But if i run in groups larger than 2 or 3fgs and we encounter the same numbers, im going to lag.. i yo-yo ocassionally, and rubber band. I rarely ld, but we have some in group that do a lot every night. Once is guarantee, twice is guaranteed, 3 times is a pattern, and 4 times i get fed up and usually go pve :-)

Might be as simple as me monitoring packetloss or even more simplistic , ping/latency. NOt sure if that would help anything other than confirming whether its latency or who knows what

Fri 3 May 2019 5:00 PM by Sleepwell

Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 4:52 PM
Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 12:23 PM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 11:52 AM
I still cant get my head around why people film themselves playing....

Because they aren't as flexible as Ron Jeremy ... many won't get that reference, but those that do, i hope you got as much of a chuckle out of it as i did...

Hehe . I've actually met Ron in JFK airport some years ago. Real nice guy. He ain't as flexible as he once was .

hahahaha... classic!!!

Fri 3 May 2019 5:40 PM by Roto23

Sleepwell wrote: ↑
Fri 3 May 2019 4:23 PM
ill ask a 3rd time. Is it against the rules? or is it just being a dick? I can agree that either way, its not good for the environment of the game, but i cannot find a rule that states against it.

And... im east coast US (North Carolina) , and you're right.. in todays internet environment, there should not be lag like there is, but it is there. Unless you experience it, then you cannot comment on it. In large keep battles,(... well what used to be large.. lets say 20+ vs 20+ now) i lag. I do NOT lag on live. Can't say if its server location, latency between my location and the server, etc. It has an impact. Nightly i have several guildies who live East coast, west coast, Canada, etc, who will sometimes disconnect on incoming. Maybe you live in a location not affected, but i am not the only one who is

So, if I am correct your question was "Is causing lag against the rules" I would say no because the way you stated it is too broad. If you asked "is window dragging against the rules?" I would guess it is but I do not know if it is on Phoenix. Window dragging on live many years ago... they were able to programatically detect you were moving the window around and simply froze your feet in place on the server. I actually tested that one out on pendragon. But as Raec stated there are other ways to get the same affect of dragging your window around.

Fri 3 May 2019 7:23 PM by Sleepwell

Right. I agree

I agree that window dragging is a dick move. And yes, there are other actions that create lag. Taking a screenshot is a great example. Something implemented into the game that was intended to be beneficial and create a positive end user experience can be manipulated to "cheat"