Another Necro exploit while casting in shadeform (with Video) - fix this

First of all - to start the discussion - watch the Video to the topic right below this link:
https://youtu.be/UmcmYMxLnl0

Like in every situation you face Albzergs in Keeps or at Walls, some random high RR Necros walk in and cast Maelstrom/Ichor and you cant do anything about it - except moving out, give up your position and find his pet that is anywhere.

This CAN NOT be intended that Necros are INVICIBLE in these situations and they f*ck up your gameplay so easy. Its nothing more than just bullshit.

My Solution:
- remove active RAs like Maelstrom or Ichor completely from Necros
or
- make Necros only able to cast when they got DIRECT LOS to their pets within a close range of like 250-300 locs
or
- make Necros only able to actively cast their RAs while NOT in shade

Anymists on the other hand in Hib are totally gimped because you cant shroom in keeps or nearby. Once we run with an animist in grp and we could not set tangler cause we fought to close to a keep. Useless class there.

You remove the ability of groups to face zergs in situations like above against the exploiting albzergs.

Please do something about it.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:46 PM by kratoxin

Can't cast shrooms in keeps or nearby?.... welp deleteing my animist now lol.. or just sit down in a keep and suicide.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 12:51 PM by florin

Hi welcome to daoc - this is called working as intended

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:07 PM by wubbl0rz

yes you should be able to press 1 key for 15min and defend any keep vs anyone... no counterplay allowed.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:42 PM by Naylo

I agree with Zenit on the points he mentioned

Also, please fix the necro DD : I was on my nightshade unstealthed and saw a necro nearby, i hit stealth which worked while the pet was starting to cast, and 2s later it hit me with the DD and destealthed me.

With ALL other classes if you sent a pet or cast a spell on a stealther that go out of view, your spell is cancelled, but not necro.

Please fix it too
o/

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:44 PM by FFpheonix

<Insert video of Hibs exploiting shroom placement>

Devs please do something!!!

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:59 PM by Zenit

nothing else than dumb trolling, nothing else expected.

"counterplays" was the best nonsense comment.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:59 PM by Aervine

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 1:44 PM
<Insert video os Hibs exploiting shroom placement>

Devs please do something!!!

The Devs have done something for shroom placement exploits though...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 2:07 PM by Misterteatime

Well, the fact that Necros are able to sneak in a Relic Keep and steal it while their pet is not close shows that sth has to be done about this. Uthred was so kind to bring the relic back afterwards and said the will look into this unintended "exploit". I just hope they will fix something like Zenit showed in the video too! Imho they should asap...

Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by Naylo

and again - vanish wasted by necro pet ...

https://imgur.com/a/WhPeO12

Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:44 PM by Ceen

That's not an exploit it's simple how necro RAs work on live.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:45 PM by FFpheonix

On my Necro I made it all the way (including Abom) to the Relic room and the Hib defense didn't stop me. Most Mids and Hibs do not understand the mechanics behind the Abom so they rarely stun my pet. Hibs setup up shroom defenses in the lower levels, but without stunning the pet the shrooms break their own root and I walk right past.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:37 PM by Zenit

FFpheonix wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 3:45 PM
On my Necro I made it all the way (including Abom) to the Relic room and the Hib defense didn't stop me. Most Mids and Hibs do not understand the mechanics behind the Abom so they rarely stun my pet. Hibs setup up shroom defenses in the lower levels, but without stunning the pet the shrooms break their own root and I walk right past.

I dont know if you cant read. See the video i posted. There is NO NECRO PET to attack while the fkn shade can cast his shit. This is broken.

Make the necropet cast the stuff the necro wants to cast so we can stop it. Or he has to bring his pet to the place where he wants to drop it.

This will fk the server. What do you want to happen? 8men group of necros who all go up to relic or normal keeps and all 8 blow Maelstrom5?

This is is digusting. And every kid who spams "Works as intended" is considered 15 years old sitting with a helmet in front of his pc.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:40 PM by rubaduck

I played a lot of necro in SI and is the character I have played the most during that expansion and it is not working as intended. The pet always had to be close by for the shade to drop RA's.

Totally agree that necros needs to get a fix to prevent them of abusing this no-counterplay bullsh*t.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 4:47 PM by Dominus

this is definitely an exploit. Shade should not be able to cast ANYTHING w/out his pet nearby and attackable. The game is fair only when you have a solution available for fighting back.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:10 PM by FFpheonix

But did you die?

Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:19 PM by Draorias

Btw. before Necro rework, every ra from necro was casted by the pet not of the shade. So it means, that pet had to get los to the target.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by Misterteatime

Draorias wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 5:19 PM
Btw. before Necro rework, every ra from necro was casted by the pet not of the shade. So it means, that pet had to get los to the target.

And that's exactly how it should work. Now it feels more like a cheat, because there are no countermeasures at all if the pet isn't around.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:10 PM by relvinian

i have this as a bug report.

From months ago.

I do believe that there needs to be some compromise on necro

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:12 PM by Zenit

right now the albs showed again how its done.

we sit inner Dagda with like 12 hibs vs 60 albs. 3 shades come up before everyone else.

3x Malestrom
3x Ichor

GG

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:43 PM by relvinian

I think another possible solution is to reduce the range of the necro's tether.

That would be my first suggestion, to reduce the necro tether range.

I would say let us try 1200 as a tether range. Maybe 1000.

That way the necro cannot go all the way inside the keep from the outer door.

And then necros can carry relics without needing nerfed.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 6:48 PM by Draorias

As long, as we get a los check for necro pets if necro uses some ra, i'm fine on that.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:21 PM by relvinian

https://tracker.playphoenix.online/issues/7a19672f-533d-4e56-a8fd-785214c42f09

You can see where i reported this. And my comments on it.

If you don't need los for gtaoe then necro shouldn't be singled out.

But the tether could solve some issues.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:49 PM by Ceen

One thread skillz show off next thread total rage haha

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:13 PM by Fooj Fujiyama

Just remove necros and Bd's from the game ez solution

Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:39 PM by Satayspurche

so manny crying ^^

Tue 26 Mar 2019 9:15 PM by Draorias

No crying, just some exploiting like always

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:37 PM by Luluko

there is also another necro bug where they can still hit nuke you when you already left the 1,5k range if they started to cast the spell when you still were in castrange it wont check again when the cast is through also it seems some nukes are hitting twice that whole class shouldnt be allowed in rvr currently.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:45 PM by Vkejai

Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:37 PM
there is also another necro bug where they can still hit nuke you when you already left the 1,5k range if they started to cast the spell when you still were in castrange it wont check again when the cast is through also it seems some nukes are hitting twice that whole class shouldnt be allowed in rvr currently.

I believe that applies to all casted spells

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:28 PM by cuuchulain79

Yeah.....maybe time to dive in and fix some broken things...?

I mean, I'd hate to see the staff have to push back the timeline on their special project in the Stygian Delta...but maybe basic gameplay should get ironed out too?

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:40 PM by rubaduck

Satayspurche wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
so manny crying ^^

Crying is when people are calling for removing insta amnesia on bards.

This is just calling out a bug as well as showing it in practice to prove it is bugged.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:52 PM by waffel

Happened today during Alb relic raid in Hib. Multiple necros went up and dropped their RA on the relic while multiple FG of hibs were ‘defending’

Shades came up, dropped 4-5 of these things and basically wiped the entire defending force in seconds. Fun stuff

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:00 AM by Luluko

Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:45 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:37 PM
there is also another necro bug where they can still hit nuke you when you already left the 1,5k range if they started to cast the spell when you still were in castrange it wont check again when the cast is through also it seems some nukes are hitting twice that whole class shouldnt be allowed in rvr currently.

I believe that applies to all casted spells

no it doesnt there is a range check when you iniate and when you finish the cast doesnt seem to be the case on the 1500 range lifetap from necro could also be that it only applies to qc cast I am not sure but I am 99% sure I wasnt in range anymore and he still hit me and I only saw that with necros

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:15 AM by Naylo

Luluko wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:00 AM
Vkejai wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:45 PM
Luluko wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 10:37 PM
there is also another necro bug where they can still hit nuke you when you already left the 1,5k range if they started to cast the spell when you still were in castrange it wont check again when the cast is through also it seems some nukes are hitting twice that whole class shouldnt be allowed in rvr currently.

I believe that applies to all casted spells
no it doesnt there is a range check when you iniate and when you finish the cast doesnt seem to be the case on the 1500 range lifetap from necro could also be that it only applies to qc cast I am not sure but I am 99% sure I wasnt in range anymore and he still hit me and I only saw that with necros

for necro it applies all the time and gave my necro on uthgard many many kills
for all other casters it doesnt
same thing with stealth and hitting a target that stealthed - all casters and pet will stop - but not necro

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:21 AM by relvinian

waffel wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:52 PM
Happened today during Alb relic raid in Hib. Multiple necros went up and dropped their RA on the relic while multiple FG of hibs were ‘defending’

Shades came up, dropped 4-5 of these things and basically wiped the entire defending force in seconds. Fun stuff

This is why it needs to be addressed. I was one of those necros, btw. The other day when monster got the relic in shade form and uthgard took it back-- that was not Monsterparty's fault. He just played his class.

But there needs to be balance. Shrooms got nerfed. I think the best compromise is a shorter tether. That way you can find the necro if they they are doing stuff and/or kill the pet or the pet gets targetted by shrooms/lord/aoe whatever.

With the current tether range you can park ur pet inside the inner door and stand in shade form outside the outer door. A bit cheesy if you can also use spells cast bu shade? If tether was shorter at least someone could climb over and pa the pet.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:21 AM by Draorias

seems it's a pretty solid class balancing

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:23 AM by relvinian

Draorias wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:21 AM
seems it's a pretty solid class balancing

i dont even understand your humor. I'm trying to help.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:38 AM by dbeattie71

I was in Thid on my noob Animist and got in trouble for “putting shrooms in the wall,” even though the pic I have has it next to the wall. Anyway, w/e, instead of risking it I left Thid but don’t go near keeps now with my 50 Ani. If a shroom does damage to someone in the keep, it’s an exploit. I believe I then died to theurg pets coming through the door, while the GM was talking to me. 😂

P.s. I also don’t do keeep stuff with my Ani because putting 1 shroom down, if you’re lucky, isn’t much fun.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:29 AM by Woodspryte

8 people defend against 34 and that is ok but...
2 people zerg bust the 8 and that is not ok...

Negative Maelstrom is a GTAoE. The ability does not require LoS and it has always been cast by the Necro himself. There is no exploit here.

The Necro shade casting Ichor... while not an exploit... that's not how it was on live.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:58 AM by waffel

Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
8 people defend against 34 and that is ok but...
2 people zerg bust the 8 and that is not ok...

Negative Maelstrom is a GTAoE. The ability does not require LoS and it has always been cast by the Necro himself. There is no exploit here.

The Necro shade casting Ichor... while not an exploit... that's not how it was on live.

Following that logic: live during SI (the timeline we’re following) didn’t have a global limit on animist shrooms. Every animist could drop their shrooms, and in walls/geometry.

Sound fun, bro? There was no exploit there, either.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:00 AM by phixion

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:40 PM
Satayspurche wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
so manny crying ^^

Crying is when people are calling for removing insta amnesia on bards.

This is just calling out a bug as well as showing it in practice to prove it is bugged.

Like the crying done when Assassins were able to reapply lifebane over and over.... wait a minute!

Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:08 AM by Woodspryte

waffel wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
8 people defend against 34 and that is ok but...
2 people zerg bust the 8 and that is not ok...

Negative Maelstrom is a GTAoE. The ability does not require LoS and it has always been cast by the Necro himself. There is no exploit here.

The Necro shade casting Ichor... while not an exploit... that's not how it was on live.

Following that logic: live during SI (the timeline we’re following) didn’t have a global limit on animist shrooms. Every animist could drop their shrooms, and in walls/geometry.

Sound fun, bro? There was no exploit there, either.

You're missing the point.

In regards to your example, on live it was changed so there was a shroom cap. It was also bannable offense for putting shrooms in geometry.

In my case GTAoE were never changed functionally. This is how they worked in SI and it is how they work now. ANY class that has access to Negative Maelstrom could have busted the campers.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 3:55 AM by Ashman

a few more ways to help my hib brothers in need:

remove flexline from reaver>give to bm

remove alb plate armor>give to every hib melee

add single root to every hib caster,baseline stun to animist and vw

give animists shade form (not removeable)

these little changes will increase the oppressed hib players fun and therefore increase balance and harmony of this glorious server

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:37 AM by dansari

rubaduck wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 11:40 PM
Satayspurche wrote: ↑
Tue 26 Mar 2019 8:39 PM
so manny crying ^^

Crying is when people are calling for removing insta amnesia on bards.

This is just calling out a bug as well as showing it in practice to prove it is bugged.

Hey let me know when you post back on that thread proving why amnesia should break speed giving hibs complete control of engagements and disengagements. Until then, please kindly accept that you're wrong and, unironically, stop crying in other threads about it.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:20 AM by pollojack

Live isn't really the gold standard for balance, that's why we're here. Regardless of live allowing a necro to drop his RAs away from his pet, you would have to agree an invulnerable person running into a group and using what is essentially an ultimate isn't fair play. Even with coordination it is coordinated unfair play.

As to a small group holding a room, a smaller group defending against a larger group is the intended design of keeps. You wont have the sense of accomplishment if there aren't defenders nor the fun of a fight.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:49 AM by

Uthred

Please stay on topic and dont insult each other. Yeah, i know it is hard, but try it. I know you can do it. Thank you.

Back to the topic.

There will be a fix that necros cant pick up the relic in shade when the pet isnt near by. This is atm not working as intended. It will be fixed very soon, until then I stronlgy advice you to not pick up the relic as a shade. Other things mentioned in the video will be looked into also, but not sure if they are a bug or not.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 9:00 AM by Cruella

Cant you not have this "feature" on every toon?

- Walk to the keep when its yours
- Enter Lordroom
- F5
- Write down coordinates
- Make a macro like /macro Hurbury /groundset xxxx, xxxxx, xxxx

Next time you raid it just click the macro of said keep and your groundtarget is set. Now click your gtaoe....profit...be like a necro ...

Only costs you like 3 sides of one of your unused quickbars

Wed 27 Mar 2019 11:31 AM by gnefner

Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:08 AM
waffel wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:29 AM
8 people defend against 34 and that is ok but...
2 people zerg bust the 8 and that is not ok...

Negative Maelstrom is a GTAoE. The ability does not require LoS and it has always been cast by the Necro himself. There is no exploit here.

The Necro shade casting Ichor... while not an exploit... that's not how it was on live.

Following that logic: live during SI (the timeline we’re following) didn’t have a global limit on animist shrooms. Every animist could drop their shrooms, and in walls/geometry.

Sound fun, bro? There was no exploit there, either.

You're missing the point.

In regards to your example, on live it was changed so there was a shroom cap. It was also bannable offense for putting shrooms in geometry.

In my case GTAoE were never changed functionally. This is how they worked in SI and it is how they work now. ANY class that has access to Negative Maelstrom could have busted the campers.

No other class is immune to everything though, while doing so.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:50 PM by relvinian

Uthred wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 8:49 AM
Please stay on topic and dont insult each other. Yeah, i know it is hard, but try it. I know you can do it. Thank you.

Back to the topic.

There will be a fix that necros cant pick up the relic in shade when the pet isnt near by. This is atm not working as intended. It will be fixed very soon, until then I stronlgy advice you to not pick up the relic as a shade. Other things mentioned in the video will be looked into also, but not sure if they are a bug or not.

So a necro with pet in tow, is not allowed to pick up a relic?

Wed 27 Mar 2019 12:58 PM by relvinian

How many times have i dropped a 15 point ra on an enemy and snare, double dot them, with my pet attacking them, and with a measly 5 points they are off, ready to kill someone in 30 seconds? I have had assassins kill people standing next to me and there was nothing i could do to save them or avenge them. PERIOD. Because of 5 measly points.

I wish all the people asking for changes on other people's classes would be open to some changes on their own.

I'm open and flexible to changes if they make the game more balanced and fair.

I challenge you to do the same.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 3:47 PM by Woodspryte

gnefner wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 11:31 AM
Woodspryte wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 2:08 AM
waffel wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Following that logic: live during SI (the timeline we’re following) didn’t have a global limit on animist shrooms. Every animist could drop their shrooms, and in walls/geometry.

Sound fun, bro? There was no exploit there, either.

You're missing the point.

In regards to your example, on live it was changed so there was a shroom cap. It was also bannable offense for putting shrooms in geometry.

In my case GTAoE were never changed functionally. This is how they worked in SI and it is how they work now. ANY class that has access to Negative Maelstrom could have busted the campers.

No other class is immune to everything though, while doing so.

The Necro isn't immune either... his pet is within 1500 units of the shade.

If the Wizard on the floor below casted Negative Maelstrom from the safety of below while surrounded by a zerg would there be complaints?

If an Eldritch (I think they're the NM Caster) on the top floor casted it at the stairwell or below, would there still be complaints?

Both of these cases the caster of Negative Maelstrom is out of harms way.

The only difference is the Necro can scout more efficiently for his ground target without relying on someone else providing information.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:11 PM by Freudinio

This thread and the people in it is why the server is going to shit.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:19 PM by relvinian

Freudinio wrote: ↑
Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:11 PM
This thread and the people in it is why the server is going to shit.

The people in this thread are the people on the server. That being said, we make it what it is together-- good or bad.

I'm willing to work together with the other players and devs to make this a better server-- if we can.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 4:29 PM by Freudinio

Unfortunately Relv, most people are content with whining to get their way.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 5:41 PM by relvinian

Well servernews has a fix in for necros.

Good enough. I can live with it.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:12 PM by SaintRon

When one of your solutions is "the necro should only be able to cast RA's out of shade form" I have trouble taking you seriously.

Wed 27 Mar 2019 6:42 PM by

Uthred

[attachment=0]patch.JPG[/attachment]

Wed 27 Mar 2019 7:32 PM by Ashman

wtb patchnote

-shrooms can now resist against player targets