Hunter BM & Spear - Phoenix Freeshard

1. Does 50 BM mean I can charm level 45 pets?
2. What’s the best class for Spear melee hunters ?

Thu 9 Aug 2018 11:29 AM by heardstheword

Spear is dex/str while sword is str.

Kobold is good for higher dex (which is good for bow damage too); Norse has higher strength. Really both are good. Norse would be best if you ever plan to go sword in the future.

Just don't be a dwarf or Valkyn

Thu 9 Aug 2018 3:02 PM by Joc

Early RRs (sub rr5) a Norse sword melee hunter is going to rip. After rr5 some really nice hybrid options will be available too. I know on the other shard I was able to 4 round many sneaks. Though now with the ws/con changes that may not be possible.

Thu 9 Aug 2018 3:20 PM by heardstheword

With MoS changes, melee archers are at a disadvantage. In the past you could do great, because high MoS allowed you to see all stealthers from far away. Also, Sword is rough until they change the stun chain back to trigger off evade. They've said it's a planned change in the future, as it currently triggers off of a block.

50sword/42BC/38stealth (16 in bow, for if you want to interrupt people at range).

I played a melee hunter on Mord for a while. 1hsword/shield is great to land evade stun, swap to 2h and ragnarok.

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 3:02 PM
Though now with the ws/con changes that may not be possible.

I'm hoping that it's equal to the previous str/con debuff.

i.e. if your weaponskill dropped by 50 in the past (due to the strength decrease by 118) that it drops by 50 with the weaponskil/con debuff.
Fake numbers, but I just assume it would equate to the same. This makes this new poison actually useful against NS/Inf/ranger/scout that use pierce lines.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:45 AM by Cadebrennus

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 3:20 PM
With MoS changes, melee archers are at a disadvantage. In the past you could do great, because high MoS allowed you to see all stealthers from far away. Also, Sword is rough until they change the stun chain back to trigger off evade. They've said it's a planned change in the future, as it currently triggers off of a block.

50sword/42BC/38stealth (16 in bow, for if you want to interrupt people at range).

I played a melee hunter on Mord for a while. 1hsword/shield is great to land evade stun, swap to 2h and ragnarok.

Joc wrote: ↑
Thu 9 Aug 2018 3:02 PM
Though now with the ws/con changes that may not be possible.

I'm hoping that it's equal to the previous str/con debuff.

i.e. if your weaponskill dropped by 50 in the past (due to the strength decrease by 118) that it drops by 50 with the weaponskil/con debuff.
Fake numbers, but I just assume it would equate to the same. This makes this new poison actually useful against NS/Inf/ranger/scout that use pierce lines.

Technically wouldn't the MoS changes put all Archers at a disadvantage and not just Melee Archers? By that reasoning one would assume that the only targets for Archers would be Visi classes.

I would think that Melee Archers would have a better chance solo Vs Assassins because they would at least have a chance in melee. What are your thoughts?

Edit: Change "visiting classes" to "Visi classes". Damn phone autocorrected me.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 12:06 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:45 AM
Technically wouldn't the MoS changes put all Archers at a disadvantage and not just Melee Archers? By that reasoning one would assume that the only targets for Archers would be visiting classes.

I would think that Melee Archers would have a better chance solo Vs Assassins because they would at least have a chance in melee. What are your thoughts?

You're right. Archers as a whole are at a disadvantage, so of that small group, the best prepared for a melee fight would be melee archers.

My personal mindset, at least for the way this server is configured with stealth, is that if I were to be a melee stealther, I might as well be an assassin for the poison/perf advantages. Hence why I have a 50shadowblade.

I do plan to use the insta-50 phase to try out a hunter. I don't doubt a hunter can thrive here. My only playtime as one was post-catacombs on Mordred, so I'm not sure how the patch affects things. The pet + melee will be HUGE for a melee hunter. The self buffs aren't as pivotal with the advent of buff potions but still beneficial.

That said, a melee (sword) hunter will not be viable until the FrostCut stun chain gets changed from block -> evade.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 12:24 PM by Ragnar

Does the last hunter’s pet got frenzy here ? 🤔

Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:21 PM by Cadebrennus

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 12:06 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:45 AM
Technically wouldn't the MoS changes put all Archers at a disadvantage and not just Melee Archers? By that reasoning one would assume that the only targets for Archers would be visiting classes.

I would think that Melee Archers would have a better chance solo Vs Assassins because they would at least have a chance in melee. What are your thoughts?

You're right. Archers as a whole are at a disadvantage, so of that small group, the best prepared for a melee fight would be melee archers.

My personal mindset, at least for the way this server is configured with stealth, is that if I were to be a melee stealther, I might as well be an assassin for the poison/perf advantages. Hence why I have a 50shadowblade.

I do plan to use the insta-50 phase to try out a hunter. I don't doubt a hunter can thrive here. My only playtime as one was post-catacombs on Mordred, so I'm not sure how the patch affects things. The pet + melee will be HUGE for a melee hunter. The self buffs aren't as pivotal with the advent of buff potions but still beneficial.

That said, a melee (sword) hunter will not be viable until the FrostCut stun chain gets changed from block -> evade.

Perhaps you could verify here on Phoenix; the 1.65 world had Hunters with the fastest speed bows that had the shortest range. So the balance was that Hunters were at a disadvantage at long range vs Rangers and especially Scouts (who had slightly longer range bows than Rangers, allowing for another shot in the right circumstances), but that Hunters were deadly in close range. The reason that Hunters have the advantage at close range is that 1) their bows were faster, allowing for better opportunities to interrupt, especially with Rapid Fire, and 2) the dog is primarily there as an interrupt so that the Hunter can maintain distance and continue to fire. This is why good Hunters could take on two ranged targets (such as casters or other archers) and survive.

Knowing just effective a pet could be, take a look at why I temped in a Belt of Negative Energy on live, despite there being much better alternatives stat-wise. Basically, I was a dual-wielding Hunter once every 15 minutes. Watch how in the first video at the 9:00 mark where I use the pet (the wisp) in order to prevent the Cleric from healing the Armsman and stunning me anymore or DD'ing me. I was able to melee down the Cleric and give the Armsman a good fight before he finally kicked my ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo7c_IS4e54

In the beginning of this second video I fight TWO Hunters, neither of whom bust out their pet, while I use the pet from the Belt of Negative Energy in order to shut one down from using ranged attacks while I deal with the other. Unfortunately YouTube muted the music I was using in this video =(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aVyMOVAIqI&t=100s

While I know that Melee Hunters will be absolute beasts (and I'm not looking forward to fighting them!) don't discount the importance of a Hunter's pet in the ranged game either. The ignorance of its usefulness is why so many Hunter players on live constantly complained about lacking in the ranged game until they got the same range/speed bows as Scouts and Rangers and now completely dominate the ranged game instead of being balanced in the ranged game on live.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:35 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 5:21 PM
.

Yeah but the bow changes that happened years ago puts Live archers in a totally different category. It's not even fair to compare live to this patch.

BC changes and Bow changes altered how archers play. My Mordred hunter was there before and after the Bow/BC changes, which is when I made the change to 50sword melee hunter. The pet is not to be underestimated at all.

But what you're capable of doing on live with artifacts and those changes may not be achievable here. Apples to oranges and all that.

As it stands, my memory of hunter play is essentially post-Bow refactoring, so I'm working off of assumptions for a lot of these things regarding bow.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 6:56 PM by Cadebrennus

Oh I know that comparing post TOA gameplay with 1.65 gameplay is apples and oranges, I was just showing what a pet can do in the interrupt game.

Fri 10 Aug 2018 7:01 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Fri 10 Aug 2018 6:56 PM
Oh I know that comparing post TOA gameplay with 1.65 gameplay is apples and oranges, I was just showing what a pet can do in the interrupt game.

100%. I would've been saved a few times in DF if I was a melee hunter with pet (damn that Minst 40second flute mezz -__- )

My memory is fuzzy, but I don't think pet procs anything on this patch, right?

Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:01 PM by inoeth

if somebody is planning to do a melee hunter go for dwarf! dwarves have the best resistances (2 slash 3 thrust 5 body) and go for 50 spear and learn the strafe stun.
at higher rr you could consider to go for sword spec in combination with moblock, but tbh spear is still better since you can choose lsash or thrust weapons

i played hunter before toa and after ... through all the patches

Wed 17 Oct 2018 3:49 AM by relvinian

Hunter spear now does quite decent damage after changes.

At 45 melee hunter with spear and buff pots I was hitting for around 350 in pve with spear.

Hunter pet however was doing 58.

I hit 350, 350, wham wham.

Pet is like biting the ankles I think.

I think the pet can't kill an afk person.

Wed 17 Oct 2018 7:02 AM by Cadebrennus

relvinian wrote: ↑
Wed 17 Oct 2018 3:49 AM
Hunter spear now does quite decent damage after changes.

At 45 melee hunter with spear and buff pots I was hitting for around 350 in pve with spear.

Hunter pet however was doing 58.

I hit 350, 350, wham wham.

Pet is like biting the ankles I think.

I think the pet can't kill an afk person.

The pet's job isn't DPS, it's interrupts

Wed 17 Oct 2018 10:12 AM by relvinian

Pet dmg in general seems low.

Have you tried sapphire sim on cab?

I played a LOT of spirit cabs. If I threw a 50 spirit buffed sapphire sim on an assassin they had a REAL problem on their hands.

Not here, they get hardly any damage, never get hit, and maybe the thing breaks mez and root for them.

On live they would die. Even on uthgard.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 3:19 PM by Dominus

higher level pet should proc a snare or disease to help with kiting in my opinion.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 3:47 PM by chois

i can help, after played ranger during beta, i went to try hunter (cause i ve one on uthgard and wanted to see the difference), i leveled him before instant 50 so i made lvl 40-50 by xp and 1L-5L4 by rvr. i tried a lot of different on my hunter viking, 50 spear, well u hit very low damage ( in pvp) around 236 with a spear 5.0 or less if u hit resistant armor where a ns/infi hit u for 180Mh/80Oh for a speed 1.5 faster due to hast effect of dual, take a lethargy envenom and you re dead or u ll take an evade/stun due to the36to 42% of evade chance of ns/ini. after i tried a 50 sword spec daga were better due to a high strengh even u hit in malus but.. u don t have a stun, u can not choose ur damage slash/thrust and you re better when u hit one handed than 2 handed, less evaded. the lack of stun was too important so i m playing in dual sepc, ie 50 sword/ 39 spear / 27 bow / 34 stealth / rest bc (dog is a joke even with wild minion 9:p yeah i tested al lra to see what can i do, some are funny) and even all the tools available u ll never challenge a ns/infi/ see ranger depend, u can win sure but in melee if u don t have all ras up it will difficult where ranger or scout can do it by a strong melee dps or by slam/crit where a hunter never can do it. we can tell, meh learn to traverse back stun.. well, favorite anytime of most infi/ns garrot, good luck to traverse back stun even under sprint. i don t expect a big big up that will do hunter an op classe, just to rivalize with the principal target. don t forget in 1.65 spear was considered like a one handed weapon and loose the bonus 2 handed, advantage of self d/q is rased by full acces pots for everyone ( this self was due to the slow speed of spear at the beginning). I dream on pet 42bc with disease/garot/ frenzy and a full change of sword spec ( evade on stun) but i don t want too much , just a up to enjoy fulfully hunter.
Sorry for the book, just my point of view after testing.

Skairipa ranger / Tasya hunter

Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:52 PM by Dominus

Here, I fixed it for you. Great content that just needed some paragraphs and tweaks.

I can help. After I played Ranger during beta, I went to try Hunter (because I have one on Uthgard and wanted to see the difference). I leveled him before instant 50 so I made lvl 40-50 by xp and 1L-5L4 by RVR. I tried a lot of different things on my Hunter; 50 spear which hit with very low damage (in PVP), around 236 with a 5.0 spear or less if u hit resistant armor. Where however an NS/Inf hits you for 180 Mh/80 Oh for a speed 1.5 faster due to the haste effect of dual wield. Add in a lethargy envenom and you're dead, or you'll take an evade/stun due to the 36 to 42% of evade chance of NS/Inf.

After I tried a 50 sword spec, damage was better due to high strength even if hit in malus but.. You don t have a stun, You can't choose your damage (slash/thrust) and you're better when you hit one handed than two-handed; less evade. The lack of stun was too important so I'm playing in dual-spec, e.g. 50 sword/ 39 spear / 27 bow / 34 stealth / rest BC (dog is a joke even with wild minion 9, trust me I tried it)

With all tools available you'll never challenge a NS/Inf. With a Ranger, it depends; you can win sure, but in melee if you don t have all RA's up, it will difficult where Ranger or Scout can do it by a strong melee DPS or by slam/crit where a hunter never can do it. We've been told to back step to avoid rear stun, bug good luck avoiding the favorite anytime of most NS/Inf "garrote", I find back stepping even with sprint impossible to overcome..

I don t expect a big buff that will make the Hunter an OP class, but just enough to just to rival with the principal target. Don't forget in 1.65 Spear was considered a one handed weapon and loses the bonus for 2 handed, AND the advantage of self d/q is erased by full access to pots by everyone ( this self was due to the slow speed of spear at the beginning).

I dream of a 42 Beast Craft pet with disease/garrote/frenzy and a full change of sword spec ( evade on stun) but i don t expect too much , just a buff to enjoy fully round out the hunter.

Sorry for the book, just my point of view after testing.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 8:06 PM by relvinian

Dominus wrote: ↑
Mon 22 Oct 2018 7:52 PM
Here, I fixed it for you. Great content that just needed some paragraphs and tweaks.

I can help. After I played Ranger during beta, I went to try Hunter (because I have one on Uthgard and wanted to see the difference). I leveled him before instant 50 so I made lvl 40-50 by xp and 1L-5L4 by RVR. I tried a lot of different things on my Hunter; 50 spear which hit with very low damage (in PVP), around 236 with a 5.0 spear or less if u hit resistant armor. Where however an NS/Inf hits you for 180 Mh/80 Oh for a speed 1.5 faster due to the haste effect of dual wield. Add in a lethargy envenom and you're dead, or you'll take an evade/stun due to the 36 to 42% of evade chance of NS/Inf.

After I tried a 50 sword spec, damage was better due to high strength even if hit in malus but.. You don t have a stun, You can't choose your damage (slash/thrust) and you're better when you hit one handed than two-handed; less evade. The lack of stun was too important so I'm playing in dual-spec, e.g. 50 sword/ 39 spear / 27 bow / 34 stealth / rest BC (dog is a joke even with wild minion 9, trust me I tried it)

With all tools available you'll never challenge a NS/Inf. With a Ranger, it depends; you can win sure, but in melee if you don t have all RA's up, it will difficult where Ranger or Scout can do it by a strong melee DPS or by slam/crit where a hunter never can do it. We've been told to back step to avoid rear stun, bug good luck avoiding the favorite anytime of most NS/Inf "garrote", I find back stepping even with sprint impossible to overcome..

I don t expect a big buff that will make the Hunter an OP class, but just enough to just to rival with the principal target. Don't forget in 1.65 Spear was considered a one handed weapon and loses the bonus for 2 handed, AND the advantage of self d/q is erased by full access to pots by everyone ( this self was due to the slow speed of spear at the beginning).

I dream of a 42 Beast Craft pet with disease/garrote/frenzy and a full change of sword spec ( evade on stun) but i don t expect too much , just a buff to enjoy fully round out the hunter.

Sorry for the book, just my point of view after testing.

Looked like a wall of text. If the hunter pet, and indeed all pets, were not so horribly gay, and not in a good way, that would help. ALL pets in this game are horribly weak. Sapphire sim on spirit cab used to be able to kill sneaks. Dead. They would just die. Here? it's like a mez breaker/root breaker that does nothing. Maybe it helps you from being mez or rooted.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 8:11 PM by romulus

Agreed Relvinian,

I love my cabbie but she's on permanent farming duty due to the general pet weakness in PvP. She is, though, a great farmer!

Mon 22 Oct 2018 8:13 PM by Dariussdars

I just got jumped by an infil right before server reset. I still killed him on my 39 spear/32 bc hunter, despite him getting backstab off.

Mon 22 Oct 2018 8:14 PM by Dominus

Hugs Tamlan

Thu 25 Oct 2018 12:44 AM by Thinal

Now that sword's reactionaries are all evade-based on hunters and shadowblades, I'm enjoying a sword hunter with 35+ bow / 39+ sword.

... I'm not doing well, but I am enjoying it. :p

I do miss playing my rangers, but it's a hell of a hoof to Emain to die in seconds.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:38 PM by Dominus

perhaps the notion of a portal to emain for Hibs might take place. I agree, the distance to travel to the fight is too great for Hibs, especially if a small man gets zerged down in seconds upon arrival.

Sat 27 Oct 2018 8:46 PM by Renork

Dominus wrote: ↑
Sat 27 Oct 2018 3:38 PM
perhaps the notion of a portal to emain for Hibs might take place. I agree, the distance to travel to the fight is too great for Hibs, especially if a small man gets zerged down in seconds upon arrival.

That would be nice. I rather play hib but getting a group together, driving to Emain just to get zerged and have to do it again is a pita.