Current SB specs and viability

So I'm only 3L7 so take this with a grain of salt. I also have a rr5 NS. On my NS, I am consistently hit for 130-160 by SBs on their MH alone. My NS is in full MP gear except 1 piece is 99%. After testing multiple specs, I dont see where this dmg comes from.

4.2 99% MH 2.9 99% OH
I have tested

Spec 1
37 st
39 axe
17 LA
44 CS
37 env

Spec2
37 st
39 axe
46 LA
10 CS
37 env

Spec 3
37 st
39 axe
39 LA
26 CS
37 env

After multiple fights with NS's, I am not sure what's going on. With Spec #2, One NS I hit for 111 on DF and another for 123 (what's going on here? Both were buffed and temped. There should be no reason I hit 1 NS harder than another? Did not see an abs buff drop either).

With spec #1 I hit a NS around 103 with garrote and 123 with Achilles. Spec #2 DF for 111 and evade chain around 120 and 135 respectively(havent pulled off the hammy combo with spec 1 yet so dont know). Spec #3 was a middle ground so I wont go into that much as I did it mostly for the PA and garrote utility. With the difference on OH dmg between spec 1 and 2 is about 10dmg a swing.

Am I using the wrong styles? With #2 I'll usually pop them with pillager for the haste debuff and use DF. Queue up my evade. Sometimes I'll queue a positional if I think I can pull it off.

The problem with the spec 2 is that while DF is consistant and it's much easier to pull off (due to lack of styles and not alot of button pressing), CS has alot of utility and pulling off a PA certainly makes up for any extra dmg that you might lose on your OH. (Was almost 200dmg difference on PA between spec 1 and 3).

I just feel like I'm missing something here. Should I be going with a slower OH weapon to maximize my burst damage? It seemed like the ones I fought were swinging too fast to be using a slow OH. I have about 6 hours left on my playtime before I have to choose a final spec. I'm leaning more towards #1 because of the PA and garrote utility even if my pure melee dmg is a bit lower. It also relies more on getting PA off (Cd/SS follow up even better considering how hard they hit).

Wed 31 Jul 2019 4:31 PM by Campjr

Well.. you are significantly exaggerating how hard SB hit your NS. We dream of hitting them that hard... your damage is about on par for damage tables and NS using all poisons they should be.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 5:15 PM by Mavella

I'm almost rr10 and 130-160 mainhand definitely does not happen with an anytimer with a 4.2/2.4 set up. If enervate is resisted maybe Achillies Heel will hit that hard but I regularly see 100~ mainhand on Garrote vs rangers and 110-120 vs nightshade. I don't really recommend using a slow offhand as the LA "haste" effects is one of the big plusses when playing an SB.

I also wouldn't look any one particular hit and say gosh how is he hitting that hard? Single hit damage is only one part of the story and someone could have ASR + dex/qui debuff and seem like they at hitting hard but are actually swinging 50% slower than they usually do which is a considerable loss of DPS.

I'd recommend you stick with the 44crit spec and drop axe/env/stl as you rank up and pump LA which will increase your base damage by a considerable amount. You can keep axe at 39 if you're a pro at landing that side ASR as it's one of the strongest available. Landing the perf chain will net you a lot of kills and unfortunately at R3 you're gonna be food to a lot of other sins. That's just the way it is. Luckily getting to r6-7 isn't too bad on phoenix and that's where you can really be more competitive.

At rr5 you can opt to go 50LA 10CS if you prefer. I personally think 50LA is overrated as the best styles are the evade stun which is situational and the rear chain which is also situational. The evade stun followed by the rear chain can and will win you fights or opening with BS2 and the rear chain is also strong assuming none of it gets blocked parried or evaded. The evade stun vs sins that likely have purge up is more of a liability than a boon as having to reapply 4 poisons in a fight lasting 15-20 seconds isn't exactly easy. It also gives them the opportunity to heal pot+legion charge if they haven't popped a DA charge.

CS in my opinion generally has better styles with way better growth rates to make up for the lost base damage at lower RR when your LA is like 17-21. The biggest negative is that garotte has a defense penalty but ideally you're only spamming it vs classes that aren't actually hitting you back. It really hurts you most vs tanks that have a combined 50% block/parry/evade and you can hardly chain anything together. Once you get high enough RR you can just use doublefrost vs tanks instead and not suffer that penalty. Spec doesn't matter much vs those tanks however. If they have cooldowns up you're most likely going to lose unless you can get away and restealth. The hamstring chain has defensive bonuses which are going to make people miss more and it's especially effective vs unstyled offhand swings making inf/ns miss their offhand about 10% more which is pretty big.

Since you're axe I'm assuming you're running the triple dot load out. It's good but only really effective in longer drawn out fights vs visibles, rangers, and scouts. Pumping toughness can increase the length of your fights as well giving these dots more time to work. If the weapons proc early they can increase your dps significantly as long as they aren't all purged of course.

I prefer sword for the str/con debuff which stacks with enervate. It can be devastating if it procs on the first or second hit in fights. It's likely not as effective as that triple dot load out vs tanks and such as I mentioned however. I also switch to a weapon with lifetap after the first 4-5 swings anyway as the str/con proc becomes less effective as a fight wears on and procs later. It can help even out that 10% and 20% resist disadvantage you're gonna have vs slash Infs and bladeshades which is real nice.

Good luck being R3 ain't easy but fortunately it doesn't last long.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 5:46 PM by Numatic

Mavella wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 5:15 PM
I'm almost rr10 and 130-160 mainhand definitely does not happen with an anytimer with a 4.2/2.4 set up. If enervate is resisted maybe Achillies Heel will hit that hard but I regularly see 100~ mainhand on Garrote vs rangers and 110-120 vs nightshade. I don't really recommend using a slow offhand as the LA "haste" effects is one of the big plusses when playing an SB.

I also wouldn't look any one particular hit and say gosh how is he hitting that hard? Single hit damage is only one part of the story and someone could have ASR + dex/qui debuff and seem like they at hitting hard but are actually swinging 50% slower than they usually do which is a considerable loss of DPS.

I'd recommend you stick with the 44crit spec and drop axe/env/stl as you rank up and pump LA which will increase your base damage by a considerable amount. You can keep axe at 39 if you're a pro at landing that side ASR as it's one of the strongest available. Landing the perf chain will net you a lot of kills and unfortunately at R3 you're gonna be food to a lot of other sins. That's just the way it is. Luckily getting to r6-7 isn't too bad on phoenix and that's where you can really be more competitive.

At rr5 you can opt to go 50LA 10CS if you prefer. I personally think 50LA is overrated as the best styles are the evade stun which is situational and the rear chain which is also situational. The evade stun followed by the rear chain can and will win you fights or opening with BS2 and the rear chain is also strong assuming none of it gets blocked parried or evaded. The evade stun vs sins that likely have purge up is more of a liability than a boon as having to reapply 4 poisons in a fight lasting 15-20 seconds isn't exactly easy. It also gives them the opportunity to heal pot+legion charge if they haven't popped a DA charge.

CS in my opinion generally has better styles with way better growth rates to make up for the lost base damage at lower RR when your LA is like 17-21. The biggest negative is that garotte has a defense penalty but ideally you're only spamming it vs classes that aren't actually hitting you back. It really hurts you most vs tanks that have a combined 50% block/parry/evade and you can hardly chain anything together. Once you get high enough RR you can just use doublefrost vs tanks instead and not suffer that penalty. Spec doesn't matter much vs those tanks however. If they have cooldowns up you're most likely going to lose unless you can get away and restealth. The hamstring chain has defensive bonuses which are going to make people miss more and it's especially effective vs unstyled offhand swings making inf/ns miss their offhand about 10% more which is pretty big.

Since you're axe I'm assuming you're running the triple dot load out. It's good but only really effective in longer drawn out fights vs visibles, rangers, and scouts. Pumping toughness can increase the length of your fights as well giving these dots more time to work. If the weapons proc early they can increase your dps significantly as long as they aren't all purged of course.

I prefer sword for the str/con debuff which stacks with enervate. It can be devastating if it procs on the first or second hit in fights. It's likely not as effective as that triple dot load out vs tanks and such as I mentioned however. I also switch to a weapon with lifetap after the first 4-5 swings anyway as the str/con proc becomes less effective as a fight wears on and procs later. It can help even out that 10% and 20% resist disadvantage you're gonna have vs slash Infs and bladeshades which is real nice.

Good luck being R3 ain't easy but fortunately it doesn't last long.

It's highly likely then doing an asr debuff was the culprit on my NS. Probably combined with a few other minor things probably bumped their MH dmg a fair amount. Thanks for that.

I plan on going triple stack viper toughness route. No vanish. Right now I do not have dragonmight as I have no way to get feathers except for RvR. Just dont have time for DS or TG. Took me awhile to get my TG vest for him and I'm back to zero feathers again. And I still need heart of legion so I'm supplementing that with the dmg add charge.

Appreciate all the advice, thanks

Edit: btw why would enervate matter? Dmg should still be the same.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 6:47 PM by Mavella

Weaponskill plays a factor in damage calculations. So reducing weaponskill reduces damage. It's why if someone purges your enervate and you don't reapply it they can rock your face off. If I purge or resist enervate I've had leapers/rib seps hit for 180-200 mainhand. If I land a hamstring, leaper, and rib sep with no enervate on vs any assassin I've almost assuredly won that fight.

It's part of why stunning a sin early knowing they likely to purge is generally a bad idea. It takes time to get those poisons back on and risks being resisted of course. If a sin purges at high HP get the enervate back on early. If they purge at low HP then disease ASAP to counter the heals and reapplying the dot is probably smarter.

If you don't carry a bundle of weapons to deal with poison resists and purges you're also likely costing yourself fights you can or should have won.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 7:59 PM by Saroi

The reason enervate reduces damage is not because of the weaponskill. It's because it acts as if the enemy has reduced str or str/dex, depending on his damage type.

~~Examples with a 118 weapon ws / con debuff against a level 50 target:
When applied to a Shadowblade (only has access to 100% strength weapons) with 300 strength: the Shadowblade will see their normal strength value, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 (300 – 118) strength.

When applied to a Reaver with a flex weapon (50% strength, 50% dexterity) with 300 dexterity and 300 strength: the Reaver will see their normal strength and dexterity values, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 dexterity (300 -118) and 182 strength (300 – 118) (the exact formula here is: ((strength + dexterity ) / 2 – debuff value). The evade and block chance is not affected by this dexterity debuff.

Edit: As for the specs. Full LA is the way.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 8:48 PM by Mavella

Yeah this is right reducing the STATS portion of the damage modifier in the damage calculation is how enervate works. Since your STATS value is decreased you see a drop in weaponskill and thus a drop in damage.

Weaponskill is a weird value spit out by combining your stats, damage table, weapon spec, RR bonus on weapon skill etc. It's more a general information number and is unfortunately always wrong for classes that have advanced weapon lines like CS and LA since it shows a value for your base weapon rather than CS or LA which are likely much higher.

I don't think the actual "Weaponskill" value is included in any calculations but the parts that make it up like stats and spec certainly are. I should have been more clear with my previous response!

Wed 31 Jul 2019 9:49 PM by Numatic

Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 7:59 PM
The reason enervate reduces damage is not because of the weaponskill. It's because it acts as if the enemy has reduced str or str/dex, depending on his damage type.

~~Examples with a 118 weapon ws / con debuff against a level 50 target:
When applied to a Shadowblade (only has access to 100% strength weapons) with 300 strength: the Shadowblade will see their normal strength value, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 (300 – 118) strength.

When applied to a Reaver with a flex weapon (50% strength, 50% dexterity) with 300 dexterity and 300 strength: the Reaver will see their normal strength and dexterity values, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 dexterity (300 -118) and 182 strength (300 – 118) (the exact formula here is: ((strength + dexterity ) / 2 – debuff value). The evade and block chance is not affected by this dexterity debuff.

Edit: As for the specs. Full LA is the way.

So if you threw a str debuff poison on top of that, would it further reduce the stats or would that be cancelled out? Because I know a str debuff poison shows on the stats itself.

Wed 31 Jul 2019 11:55 PM by Mavella

Str str/con(proc) and ws/con all stack. The str debuff has a pretty high resist rate (22%~) and reduces like 16 strength I think. Less than the delve of it from my understanding.

Edit: disease also lowers strength as well of course.

Thu 1 Aug 2019 1:53 PM by Saroi

Numatic wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 9:49 PM
Saroi wrote: ↑
Wed 31 Jul 2019 7:59 PM
The reason enervate reduces damage is not because of the weaponskill. It's because it acts as if the enemy has reduced str or str/dex, depending on his damage type.

~~Examples with a 118 weapon ws / con debuff against a level 50 target:
When applied to a Shadowblade (only has access to 100% strength weapons) with 300 strength: the Shadowblade will see their normal strength value, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 (300 – 118) strength.

When applied to a Reaver with a flex weapon (50% strength, 50% dexterity) with 300 dexterity and 300 strength: the Reaver will see their normal strength and dexterity values, the carry capacity is not reduced but defense penetration and damage rolls act as if he had 182 dexterity (300 -118) and 182 strength (300 – 118) (the exact formula here is: ((strength + dexterity ) / 2 – debuff value). The evade and block chance is not affected by this dexterity debuff.

Edit: As for the specs. Full LA is the way.

So if you threw a str debuff poison on top of that, would it further reduce the stats or would that be cancelled out? Because I know a str debuff poison shows on the stats itself.

Like Mavella wrote they all do stack. You can basically get full debuffs on an enemy with ws/con, str/con(weapon), str debuff and disease(lowers str by 7,5). The problem is str debuff is only level 17 so it has a very high resist chance(the lower the level from poison, the higher the resist) and depends more on luck to go through.

As a SB you can have like ws/con poison on Main, disease on Offhand. Then switch to new Main with Lifebane and new offhand with Str debuff. SB is by far more easier to get poisons on enemy, because on paper you only need 2 rounds, while Inf/NS will need 3 or maybe 4 attack rounds.