Berserker vs Savage - Phoenix Freeshard

Which do you feel is stronger in 8 man setups and which you feel will be needed more, any thoughts on why you think one is better then the other is appreciated. Thanks

Thu 12 Jul 2018 7:25 AM by Pao

Its almost the same.

Bers has more reliable damage and the teddy for burst.
Svg. the damage varies but very difficult to peel.

Thu 12 Jul 2018 12:56 PM by heardstheword

Savage actually has higher burst potential with the opportunity for quad hits.

Berserker is more sustainable damage, and they have a dual wield advantage over shields (if that is this patch).

Thu 12 Jul 2018 1:53 PM by Dikson

Game is 17 Years old and here we go again :=)

Bers vs Savage :=)))

FIGHT!!!

Thu 12 Jul 2018 1:55 PM by heardstheword

But Pao is right, they're basically the same.

Would you rather turn into a bear and use Left Axe styles
or
Would you rather juggle self buffs and use H2H styles (or 2h if you go troll)

Fri 13 Jul 2018 6:12 AM by Enrighteous

Is 2H strong/viable here? How are the savages played in rvr/8man setups because it seems they lack a good snare to use within the H2H spec.

Fri 13 Jul 2018 7:25 AM by Pao

Its rare you only have svgs in a grp. Somebody will snare for you. You are part of the assist train.

Fri 13 Jul 2018 7:43 AM by Enrighteous

Hey thanks Pao, im new to savage. What styles would you recommend then, also spec would be 50H2H, and 42 savagery, 9 parry? Assume Kobold be a good choice?

Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:17 AM by MacPrior

I like Bersis more then Savages.
1. You are dual wielder, thus - advantage against defence of enemy melees. Savage - no.
2. Left axe hits always. Thus - bubble penetration. Savage - 60% hits with main hand, 20 % with main+off, 15% - 2 hits main+1 hit off, 5% 2 main+2off.
3. Primary-secondary-third attributes growth each level till 45-23-15 Bersi are str-con-dex, Savage - dex-qui-str.
4. Most styles of Bers have middle or higher attack bonus, Style of H2H are mostly with non bonus to attack
5. Bersi has access to styles with additional effects, like snare, bleeding (= to-hit), slow. Sauvage with H2H only stun, hit multiple targets, which could mean mezz/snare/root break or increasing of own evade/parry which is somehow useless in assist train.
But Savage with H2H has access to thrust as only mid melee. Whether it should be profitable I don't know, perhaps a little bit better then slash for Midgard.

Troll has best possible Weapon Ability as savage (145 as damage stat) , Followed by Kobold, Norse and Valkyn (all three the same - 130 damage stat)
Better WA has 2H Troll with 190 strk.
Thats why troll will be a better choice for the case, You would like to switch your spec between H2H and 2H, having always the highest weapon ability.

Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:57 PM by Dabrixmgp

MacPrior wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:17 AM
I like Bersis more then Savages.
1. You are dual wielder, thus - advantage against defence of enemy melees. Savage - no.

Savages dual wield. I dont know about you but I have another weapon in my offhand.

Fri 13 Jul 2018 3:05 PM by heardstheword

Dabrixmgp wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:57 PM
MacPrior wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:17 AM
I like Bersis more then Savages.
1. You are dual wielder, thus - advantage against defence of enemy melees. Savage - no.

Savages dual wield. I dont know about you but I have another weapon in my offhand.

Physically... yes.. their 2nd point highlights the difference between H2H and Left Axe. You stopped reading their post immediately at point 1.

On this patch they are not considered "dual wielding" in terms of combat. H2H has different hit rates than Left Axe/CelticDual/Dual Wield.

Sat 14 Jul 2018 1:23 AM by Loko

MacPrior wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:17 AM
3. Primary-secondary-third attributes growth each level till 45-23-15 Bersi are str-con-dex, Savage - dex-qui-str.

Just a point of clarity, the primary-secondary-third attributes growth each level till 45-23-15 Bersi are str-dex-con, Savage - dex-qui-str.

Sat 14 Jul 2018 4:20 AM by MacPrior

Loko wrote: ↑
Sat 14 Jul 2018 1:23 AM
MacPrior wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 9:17 AM
3. Primary-secondary-third attributes growth each level till 45-23-15 Bersi are str-con-dex, Savage - dex-qui-str.

Just a point of clarity, the primary-secondary-third attributes growth each level till 45-23-15 Bersi are str-dex-con, Savage - dex-qui-str.

Each leve ab 5 till 50 growth primary ability: Bers - strk, Sauvage - qex. Total winned points are 45.
Wach two levels grows secondry and each three levels grows the third one as listed below.

And to LA - H2H mechanics. LA hits each time, Bersi hits with a main hand, but with reduced value for both weapons. LA Skill grows the damage with both hands and crit chance. LH is dual wield - it means it reduces chance to block of hited enemy by 2. Style bonus and crit will be counted ab to (slow and strong) main hand, swing speed is depend of middle value of mean and off hand. Thats why Bersi takes strong slow main hand and a quick off hand.
H2H count not as dual wield.
Savage hits about 60% hits with main hand only, 20 % with main+off, 15% - 2 hits main+1 hit off, 5% 2 main+2off. Style Bonus is counted for 1 hit only, even by tripple or quad hit. Savage cant use an advantage of using slow/quick weapon composition to reduce middle value of weapon swing time. Growing H2H skill savage growth the chance to land a hit at all and damage with H2H.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 4:42 AM by Shadow

Dabrixmgp wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 2:57 PM
Savages dual wield. I dont know about you but I have another weapon in my offhand.

While savages do technically wield two weapons, their attacks actually don't count as dual wielding.

As for which class is better it kinda depends. I'd say they're pretty even in the right hands in PvP with a small advantage leaning towards Bers but it's not some massive advantage that's going to make or break a team comp. However, in PvE, savages are without question the best melee class in the entire game by a large margin. They can tank as well as a pure tank(the only exception being vs epic mobs/raid targets etc) and do significantly more damage than one.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:10 PM by inoeth

bersi can skill prevent flight and does more dmg over time
i played svg and most times you only hit with 1 hand.... also your not able so snare your targets wich is essentially in rvr combat as a melee class

Wed 22 Aug 2018 5:49 PM by Niix

Enrighteous wrote: ↑
Fri 13 Jul 2018 7:43 AM
Hey thanks Pao, im new to savage. What styles would you recommend then, also spec would be 50H2H, and 42 savagery, 9 parry? Assume Kobold be a good choice?

Think the spec is 49 savagery - 44 H2H - rest parry....

WIth dragon's 2H really slow hammer though I think its entirely justifiable to spec a Norse/Troll savage to 44 hammer - 49 savager and go 2 hand hammer

Fri 4 Jan 2019 3:39 AM by Loko

Shadow wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 4:42 AM
While savages do technically wield two weapons, their attacks actually don't count as dual wielding.

Since there have been numerous changes, can we please get Dev confirmation: For defense penetration, is H2H considered dual wield or just 1h? Thanks.

Fri 4 Jan 2019 4:47 AM by

gruenesschaf

1h, additionally savages have the worst def pen of all melees here but they still have the highest dps and highest defense of all light tanks.

Fri 4 Jan 2019 7:53 AM by ColdHands

Dragonstorm is class locked. Savage can not use it

Tue 8 Jan 2019 1:00 PM by phixion

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 4 Jan 2019 4:47 AM
1h, additionally savages have the worst def pen of all melees here but they still have the highest dps and highest defense of all light tanks.

To counter that def penalty they get better evade and evade buff.

It's a close call between the 2, I enjoyed my Savage for farming... buffed I could destroy reds and purples in DF with ease. I guess Zerkers could do similar but I imagine they'd take a few more hits that a Savage would evade.

Fri 11 Jan 2019 7:06 PM by HelloPancake

Going to give the slim advantage to Savage this time around because dual wielders have had their defensive penetration halved which also benefits the savage defensively-- otherwise its still the same argument of steady DPS zerk vs burst/less sustain and more defensive options savage.

Sat 12 Jan 2019 9:52 AM by Loko

It's a close call. Also, Berserker (and BM/Merc) gets Prevent Flight for free. It is not available to other classes including Savage.

Thu 21 Feb 2019 6:41 PM by DinoTriz

Berserker

Has 25% defense penetration bonus

Has Prevent Flight

Has snare styles

Can pop damage spike on demand
Savage

Has Evade 4 (Berserker has 3)

Self-buffs

Has stun styles and styles have better growth rates than Berserker

Triple and Quad hits are random, but awesome

Endurance heal

Taunt ability is great when you're farming/PVE
Berserker was my favorite class and I love them, but I switched to Savage and so happy I did. They're just beasts.

Sun 24 Feb 2019 4:00 PM by BigX

Enrighteous wrote: ↑
Thu 12 Jul 2018 7:06 AM
Which do you feel is stronger in 8 man setups and which you feel will be needed more, any thoughts on why you think one is better then the other is appreciated. Thanks

svg is better dmg, alot better at higher RR when you get higher MoP.

LA is pretty weak on this server and doesnt even get the side stun. also there is no charge on this server so the only thing that zerk has over svg is the ability to peel and abit higher burst at lower RR´s which is pretty much the other way around at higher RR´s. outside of vendo svg will always outperform zerk dmg wise at any RR due to crazy high growth rates on svg positionals and the ability to triple/quad hit(and crit on each of them).

you can easily run 2 svgs or 1 svg 1 zerk, both fine, id not run 2 zerks tho as you will miss out on alot of dmg and have no stun without a warrior slamming for you.

so unless you plan to run in a setgroup its probably better to roll a svg.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 12:09 AM by Roks

Since savage doesnt get charge on phoenix.
Zerker will win this one.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:58 AM by kmark101

Roks wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 12:09 AM
Since savage doesnt get charge on phoenix.
Zerker will win this one.

?
zerker doesn't get charge on phoenix either... (bm and merc does, zerk doesn't, no idea why... it's a lame charge anyway, just sprint with no endo)

Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:07 AM by Roks

kmark101 wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 1:58 AM
Roks wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 12:09 AM
Since savage doesnt get charge on phoenix.
Zerker will win this one.

?
zerker doesn't get charge on phoenix either... (bm and merc does, zerk doesn't, no idea why... it's a lame charge anyway, just sprint with no endo)

Thought they had changed that. My bad.
Just figured they would have changed it to balance out. Its not like giving midgard a charge tank will drastically change the pvp scene. With how many skalds there are

Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:39 PM by mello

do you recommed prevent fight? I read that is like bullshit...

like after det9 purge2 mop3?

thanks in advance

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by kmark101

mello wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:39 PM
do you recommed prevent fight? I read that is like bullshit...

like after det9 purge2 mop3?

thanks in advance

What you mean recommend? You get that skill automatically, no need to spec or spend point on it...

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:47 PM by sprinkle

still waiting on someone to post info on the changes to LA ( +30% ) Supposedly

I have a low level ber and didn't notice any damage at all

Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:29 AM by DinoTriz

sprinkle wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:47 PM
still waiting on someone to post info on the changes to LA ( +30% ) Supposedly

I have a low level ber and didn't notice any damage at all

I did some light testing on my 50 Berserker and 50 Savage after the buff to LA.

They're equally geared and around the same RR.

I noticed the increased damage in my Berserker. It's nice.

Before the LA buff, I would have gone with Savage, but it's tough now.

My Savage has to get triples and quads to feel like it's matching my Berserker's damage.

However, the Savage's haste is nice but my Berserker also has a 20% haste proc, so it's almost even.

The Savage definitely has better positional styles and of course they have some of the nastiest growth rates in the entire game.

But right now, it feels like my Savage is killing himself with buffs just to match my Berserker's damage.

The LA buff seemed to have really helped the Berserker out.

Fri 8 Mar 2019 5:37 PM by sprinkle

if only they did it sooner, the only 3 ber I knew stopped logging in

Maybe they made bonedancers

Sat 9 Mar 2019 6:44 AM by Lanfear

#metoo. have a berserker, stopped at 34. now have a BD lvl50.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:03 PM by Spewy

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
Before the LA buff, I would have gone with Savage, but it's tough now.

My Savage has to get triples and quads to feel like it's matching my Berserker's damage.

However, the Savage's haste is nice but my Berserker also has a 20% haste proc, so it's almost even.

The Savage definitely has better positional styles and of course they have some of the nastiest growth rates in the entire game.

But right now, it feels like my Savage is killing himself with buffs just to match my Berserker's damage.

The LA buff seemed to have really helped the Berserker out.

Can you remind me what is the LA buff? I missed it

can you explain what have been done?

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:24 PM by kmark101

Spewy wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
Can you remind me what is the LA buff? I missed it

can you explain what have been done?

Offhand weapon hits a little bit harder, the difference is 10-15% at high lvl (for offhand only, mainhand damage untouched). For DW/CD it manifested as a higher offhand swing chance, which is a lot better buff in my opinion.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:25 PM by DinoTriz

Spewy wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
Before the LA buff, I would have gone with Savage, but it's tough now.

My Savage has to get triples and quads to feel like it's matching my Berserker's damage.

However, the Savage's haste is nice but my Berserker also has a 20% haste proc, so it's almost even.

The Savage definitely has better positional styles and of course they have some of the nastiest growth rates in the entire game.

But right now, it feels like my Savage is killing himself with buffs just to match my Berserker's damage.

The LA buff seemed to have really helped the Berserker out.

Can you remind me what is the LA buff? I missed it

can you explain what have been done?

On March 5th (I believe), they buffed the scaling of all dual wielding skills.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I want to say it was somewhere between 18 - 30%.

With DW and CD, I believe it amounted to an additional 10% offhand strike chance.

Someone also said that Berserkers do 4.5% more offhand damage than Mercs and BMs.

Not sure how much they've improved in overall damage, but it is noticeable. Especially at level 50.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:31 PM by Ashenspire

DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:25 PM
Spewy wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
DinoTriz wrote: ↑
Fri 8 Mar 2019 11:29 AM
Before the LA buff, I would have gone with Savage, but it's tough now.

My Savage has to get triples and quads to feel like it's matching my Berserker's damage.

However, the Savage's haste is nice but my Berserker also has a 20% haste proc, so it's almost even.

The Savage definitely has better positional styles and of course they have some of the nastiest growth rates in the entire game.

But right now, it feels like my Savage is killing himself with buffs just to match my Berserker's damage.

The LA buff seemed to have really helped the Berserker out.

Can you remind me what is the LA buff? I missed it

can you explain what have been done?

On March 5th (I believe), they buffed the scaling of all dual wielding skills.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but I want to say it was somewhere between 18 - 30%.

With DW and CD, I believe it amounted to an additional 10% offhand strike chance.

Someone also said that Berserkers do 4.5% more offhand damage than Mercs and BMs.

Not sure how much they've improved in overall damage, but it is noticeable. Especially at level 50.

Zerkers do ~4.5% more average DPS with both hands combined than Mercs/BMs with equal specialization before styles are taken into consideration.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:43 PM by DinoTriz

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:31 PM
Zerkers do ~4.5% more average DPS with both hands combined than Mercs/BMs with equal specialization before styles are taken into consideration.

Ah, that's right, because LA effects main hand damage as well.