Be wary of Muhammad's dragon raids

He will keep almost all the money and loot, claiming "it is his dues as raid leader".

The other day he cobbled together a dragon raid. About 90 of us. He did not state his intentions of keeping nearly all the loot and coin as "his dues" for leading the raid.

We went, fought and fought and fought, and wiped at probably 2% due to a messenger getting through, I guess.

We all meet in West Skona to what we thought was roll on loot. Instead Muhammad says something like "You all roll on 50 and 70 ROG". Not sure exactly what that is but 2 people "got something".

He claimed that because he led the raid, he was entitled to all the other loot and money as his raid leader dues. None of this was explained at the beginning of the raid. I did not screenshot it, so my appeal of him abusing the battlechest feature went nowhere.

I saw named items get looted by Muhammad such as "Dragonsomething Sword" and other things that seemed to be "special".

So while Muhammad may lead a raid, be very aware of his loot rules before you commit hours of your time, loss of exp if you are pre-50, just to shower him with all the loot and money if you fail, or succeed.

Failed or not, things should be split. We all spent our time doing the raid, we all should have an opportunity at loot and/or coin. He also claimed responsibility for the raid failing because he did not call out the final messenger spawn. While I don't blame him directly as we all were tasked with our jobs, he is partially responsible for the failure of said raid.

Attend his raids if you want. Just be sure to make him say his loot rules in the battlegroup before you go. If you don't agree with them, don't go. If he states one thing and does another, make sure you screenshot and report. If he fails to state his loot rules and keeps all the loot save 1 or 2 things, take a screenshot and report.

Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:09 PM by defiasbandit

Why am I not playing Midgard?

Thu 14 Mar 2019 9:01 PM by Spoonanner

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 14 Mar 2019 8:09 PM
Why am I not playing Midgard?

I am not sure if you are eluding to my post about leaving Hib or not, but if I were to guess, I would say you were. If so, I guess I am a bit confused as what you are getting at?

Regardless: Muhammad himself did not strike me as a mean person in any way. I am not saying that everyone should never attend things he leads. I am just saying that you better make sure he clearly outlines the loot rules in advance before you waste your time filling his pockets.

I imagine if everyone knew his plans to bogart almost all the loot, win or lose, most would not waste their time with his raids. I know there were quite a few unhappy people when they found out he was keeping almost all of it as "his fee for leading".

I don't mind if I don't get loot as long as I had a fair shot at it. I did a TG raid with Cercei. It was wonderful and fair. I recommend Cercei raids to anyone.

To drive this post home, ensure Muhammad (or any raid leader for that matter) explains their loot intentions before the raid and take a screenshot of it (because without screenshots, your appeal will go nowhere, which I can understand their side to punish accusations without proof). The battlechest is not here to be abused by a few greedy individuals.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:18 AM by krumr

Have you already reported him for violating the server raid-rules?

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4129

It's obvious that this is not the first time something like this happens, else we wouldn't have those rules. Personally, I've already seen such behavior happening on Albion when the server launched (in the end the offender got perma banned even if for various other reasons): the best thing you can do is report this guy and move on, devs will sort things.

To add to what I wrote: naming and shaming is not the solution, ever.
For once, because the player may not know the raid rules, being specific to Phoenix and written only in a sub forum. Also, because it can happen (and has happened before) to have clumsy raid leaders who make mistakes with raid chests the first time and mess up the loot distribution.
And, in any case, because by naming and shaming you won't get the problem solved.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:42 AM by Wohop

krumr wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:18 AM
Have you already reported him for violating the server raid-rules?

https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4129

It's obvious that this is not the first time something like this happens, else we wouldn't have those rules. Personally, I've already seen such behavior happening on Albion when the server launched (in the end the offender got perma banned even if for various other reasons): the best thing you can do is report this guy and move on, devs will sort things.

To add to what I wrote: naming and shaming is not the solution, ever.
For once, because the player may not know the raid rules, being specific to Phoenix and written only in a sub forum. Also, because it can happen (and has happened before) to have clumsy raid leaders who make mistakes with raid chests the first time and mess up the loot distribution.
And, in any case, because by naming and shaming you won't get the problem solved.

I would say the naming and shaming should be kept to in game chat. I know it sounds bad but if someone steals loot from 50, 100, 200 people I would imagine calling them out publicly would work best. If a hundred people corroborate your story then I imagine no one would go next time that person tries to for a BG. Or you would then have a ton of evidence in chat the devs could see at least

Fri 15 Mar 2019 8:04 AM by Sepplord

if the dragonraid failed and he let people roll on the ROGs....then what he kept was all the crap.
I can understand that a leader doesn't want to spent an additional hour distributing craploot after a failed raid so a few individuals get 30g salvageloot

If he didn't state lootrules at the beginning then that was a violation of the rules though, but did he really not do that at all? Or did he maybe do it and you joined the BG late ( question, not an implication)

Slightly offtopic reminder coming:

Since you mention Cerceis raids: Yes Cercei is a very fair leader and doesn't care much about his personal gains at all. He even had second thoughts when he rolled a high roll since he doesn't want to look like something is fishy. I don't know if he even rolls himself anymore. The thing is, even in Cerceis raids sometimes something goes a little bit wrong. For example, one command to grant lootrights to someone not going through/having a small typo, and other people with lower rolls already taking their items before it gets sorted out. The thing is, Cercei is a trusted leader (rightfully so) and people give him leverage when something goes wrong.

A new person, doesn't get that leverage, but instantly called human trash, and people start spamming realmwide channels about the leader being a scammer, a liar, everything whats wrong with humanity and how they need to deinstall or worse...
Loot can go missing because of reasons that are out of the raidleaders control, but lots of people instantly scream foul play when something appears to be slightly wrong. Distributing loot isn't as easy as it sounds, when you are doing it for the first time. Especially when you have hundreds of people sending you messages/questions all the time.

Cut new raidleaders some slack. When they are scamming, yes, hit them hard....but when in doubt, try putting yourself in their shoes and consider that they might just be learning how to do it. Be glad that there are people at all that do it. Everytime someone that tries to organize something and gets **** on, more people discard the idea of organizing something for the realm.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 1:37 PM by krumr

Wohop wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 7:42 AM
I would say the naming and shaming should be kept to in game chat. I know it sounds bad but if someone steals loot from 50, 100, 200 people I would imagine calling them out publicly would work best. If a hundred people corroborate your story then I imagine no one would go next time that person tries to for a BG. Or you would then have a ton of evidence in chat the devs could see at least

As sepplord pointed out, the outcome of a raid can (and will always) depend also on luck: sometimes things simply go wrong despite all the good intents, or even experience, the leader can put into the raid.
In those cases if people are allowed to name and shame, even if only in chat, the leader's reputation may be permanently ruined, and for what?

Also, and even assuming the leader deserves a punishment, by naming and shaming, even if only in chat:
A) you are not really helping devs because, even if a lot of people name and shame someone, it doesn't necessarily mean they are right (as I said, things can simply go wrong out of bad luck), which means devs will have to look into the matter themselves in any case
B) you are actually harming the devs: naming and shaming is a very toxic way of setting things right, being just a way to vent out frustration and aggressiveness, and a toxic community will, over time, harm the shard and, thus, the developers.

Personally I don't think it's worth the risk.
If you really want to set things right you have the means to do that: just issue a report with screenshots or videos and let devs do their work.

Also, and to make things clear: it has already happened (in Albion, less than two months ago) that, after a raid went south loot-wise, people started to name and shame in chat the leader, despite him having no responsibility on the matter. In fact the raid chest was filled to the brim with trash loot due to a bug in Sidi* which was later fixed, thus not allowing good items to appear on the list.
And you know what? Unsurprisingly enough that player was not even temporarily banned, despite all the rage and chaos (thanks to the almighty herd mentality) which ensued right on chat.

* after the bug got fixed some very clever players also blamed that guy because it was his fault that devs fixed that bug, a bug which, in the first place, never benefitted the average player since the leader who used to run the highest number of raids at the time, and was later permanently banned, used to claim (among other things) all that trash - worth probably more than 5p in trinkets, for himself.

Do you honestly think devs should really trust people like these, only because they are a few and are naming and shaming the same player on chat?

Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:24 PM by Spoonanner

Double post.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:27 PM by Spoonanner

I was on the fence about posting this. I suppose it is my own fault for not preemptively taking screenshots to back up my appeal. Since I did not do my due diligence in providing proof of the encounter to back up my appeal of the situation to get some kind of resolution from the devs; I suppose it isn't fair for me to come here, naming and shaming him. I should have taken screenshots and let the dev's handle it, and let others report it on their own if they find themselves experiencing a similar situation.

It just really bent me out of shape and as sad as it sounds, put a damper on my night/next day. I didn't play the rest of the night/next day after work just because I was so annoyed that I wasted my time, experience, then encountered what I viewed as greed, and got no resolution because I did not take screenshots. I understand though, as I said above, that devs need screenshots to properly address the situation.

Regardless, I admit it probably wasn't the best idea to name and shame. It is just a game and if I am unhappy playing due to whatever reason, I just need to quietly move on and play something else without coming to the forums to post.

Discuss it as you want, sorry to cause some issues here. I am going to stay away from the forums. If I find myself unhappy, I will just play something else. While the nastalgia and server is fun, it is not worth it for me to stress out over it. I've made 2 posts being critical of the player base, (Hib in general and now Muhammad), probably is best if I just stay away from the forums and either get over it or move on to other things.

Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:24 PM by krumr

Spoonanner wrote: ↑
Fri 15 Mar 2019 2:27 PM
I was on the fence about posting this. I suppose it is my own fault for not preemptively taking screenshots to back up my appeal. Since I did not do my due diligence in providing proof of the encounter to back up my appeal of the situation to get some kind of resolution from the devs; I suppose it isn't fair for me to come here, naming and shaming him. I should have taken screenshots and let the dev's handle it, and let others report it on their own if they find themselves experiencing a similar situation.

It just really bent me out of shape and as sad as it sounds, put a damper on my night/next day. I didn't play the rest of the night/next day after work just because I was so annoyed that I wasted my time, experience, then encountered what I viewed as greed, and got no resolution because I did not take screenshots. I understand though, as I said above, that devs need screenshots to properly address the situation.

Regardless, I admit it probably wasn't the best idea to name and shame. It is just a game and if I am unhappy playing due to whatever reason, I just need to quietly move on and play something else without coming to the forums to post.

Discuss it as you want, sorry to cause some issues here. I am going to stay away from the forums. If I find myself unhappy, I will just play something else. While the nastalgia and server is fun, it is not worth it for me to stress out over it. I've made 2 posts being critical of the player base, (Hib in general and now Muhammad), probably is best if I just stay away from the forums and either get over it or move on to other things.

For what it's worth, I'd like to point out that without your post we wouldn't have had the chance to discuss about this problem and to confront each other in a polite and honest way (I'm shocked we didn't have people flaming or trolling!!).

Fri 15 Mar 2019 6:00 PM by Tarticus74

I was on the same Dragon Raid and the loot rules were clearly stated at the start of the raid.

He stated he wanted a respec stone as leader and only 48+ can roll it was all very clear.

The raid failed with the dragon on 4% I would say in my opinion it was a decent led raid. Only crtisism I would have is that I basically BG grouped and picked up all the stragglers meaning we had no shammy and no heals.

I know it sometimes works like this but maybe splitting up a team so everyone has a shammy for at least cold resist and a few heals would have helped.

But all in all no complaints from me. Nothing dropped of any importance just a few rogs that you can farm yourself nothing major at all so I didn't even roll or wait for the loot it was time for bed

Fri 22 Mar 2019 7:05 AM by Icykoz

This guy is a jerk though. He has a tendency to not keep his word causing you inconvenience. My encounter with him is not very pleasant.

Fri 22 Mar 2019 2:20 PM by NegativeX

FWIW, I've been on over a dozen of his dragon raids and never once have I seen him pull any of this crap stated by the OP. All were successful, everyone got to roll for loot and we all walked away happy. Rules were always clearly explained at the beginning. Super nice guy as well.

I'm not doubting the OP's story of what may of happened at a particular raid he was in, but I figured I'd give my personal experience w/ his raids over the past couple of weeks.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 7:12 AM by AngelRose

Joined his TG/dragon/legion raids many times. Never had an issue and appreciate someone running raids during US prime time. I have a job and can't join the EU raids.

Sat 23 Mar 2019 6:52 PM by zelacor

I've had no bad experience with this guy at all, I've been on SH and DR raids that both were succesfully and decently led. Loot rules and who could roll was stated clearly in advance and there was no controversy about that. The only incident was people either not showing enough attention or showing up way too late, causing them to miss out on the raid (which is their own fault as raid was called to start and left when stated and you cant have a whole BG turn back from dodens to svasud to kill some albs that prevented latecomers from joining). You can hardly blame a raid leader for that. Just to be clear, I am not disputing that what you say happened or not happened, just stating my experiences on this.

On a more general note I'd say that I wish (some) people would be a bit more forgiving and greatful to people that actually bother to lead raids, even when it goes wrong. Sometimes people are just too petty and self centered to appreciate that someone is actually putting alot of effort and time on something that in almost all cases benefits the people on the raid and the realm more than themselves. Imagine if nobody wanted to lead raids? Is making a fuss about some minor rog items or leader getting 2plats (which isnt exactly a whop ass sum anyways) really worth risiking that? Surely not.

Tue 26 Mar 2019 7:19 PM by DinoTriz

Cersei does a good job, but I think she's European :/

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Ya know, it's the time difference.

I'm sure there's nothing wrong with Europeans.

Fine people.

I assume.