What's the deal with Champions?

Why aren't they more popular?

What's their role(s) in PVE and RVR?

I've heard everything from "sleeper OP" to "they're gimp, no one wants them".

Are they similar to Valewalkers in that they're good but they just don't fit in?

I started a Champion and they seem really fun and fairly effective. What's the deal?

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:02 PM by Ashenspire

Melee isn't sought after on this server for whatever reason.

Champions can work as they now have Det and have a ton of utility. People believe that all melee need slam to be viable. It's strange.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:45 PM by Cadebrennus

The real problem with Hibernia (and to a lesser extent, Alb and Mid)

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:57 PM by Foofmonger

Valewalkers and Champions are basically in the same boat, but they're both viable classes. Generally speaking you have a few hurdles though:

1. Generally speaking, you need to be looking for a melee group (less-so with the VW), because a caster group will want a hero/bm as a peeler for their likely 1-2 lone melees. So Champions don't fit into most caster group set ups, which limits what groups you'll get into.
2. Melee groups will generally only ever want 1 champion (or valewalker), and have the rest of the melee be some mix of hero/bm.

So right off the bat, you don't fit into one of the most popular types of group (Hib caster) and even in the groups that may want you (hib Tanker) they only want 1.

Now that being said, as a class Champions are quite strong on Phoenix. They don't get stoicism, but the debuffs are buffed on this server and are very potent in a melee train. You also have ranged rupts/snare, which can go a long way to fulfilling the hybrid role and giving you flexibility that the full melee don't have. All that being said, the debuffs are the real reason groups will want a Champ as they allow melee train groups to drop targets that they would otherwise have a hard time killing.

So I don't think they are either sleeper OP or gimp to be honest. They're a potent and powerful class in their particular niche, but they definitely aren't anywhere near OP and they definitely aren't bad.

Now the fact that not that many people play them that often is just a general anti-Hybridness that DAoC has always seemed to have, that's no different on Phoenix then it was on live back in the day.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:36 AM by shintacki

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:02 PM
Melee isn't sought after on this server for whatever reason.

Champions can work as they now have Det and have a ton of utility. People believe that all melee need slam to be viable. It's strange.

Why wouldn’t you get slam as a champion tho? Way too good of a skill to not get imo

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:55 AM by Ashenspire

Because the Hero or Blademaster on your train should already have it, and you have Annihilation which shouldn't be difficult to get off on the targets you should be hitting anyway.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:42 AM by opossum12

Champs and Vw shine in melee groups, and if your group has half a brain cell it would look like this:

Champ vw hero bm ward druid druid bard

Champ: str/con debuffs on a hybrid/light tank/caster and you one round that target if the train assists. Second they have ST which is really strong.

For max utility, you should spec 50 LW 42 shield 39 valor 10 blades rest parry. Yes annihilation is a 9 sec stun, but having a anytime slam for when you see another tank coming at you to peel you is gold. If not you can spec 50 Lw 49 valor 35 shield 10 blades rest parry.

Why a VW in your tanker group? First they hit like trucks. Second they have BA, which is your iwin ticket against caster groups. Pop it and laugh as your rip them apart.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:39 PM by Sei

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:42 AM
Champs and Vw shine in melee groups, and if your group has half a brain cell it would look like this:

Champ vw hero bm ward druid druid bard

Don t you think there is a reasons if tank group run double bards ?

(Tip : it s not about perma endu+ speed songs )

This said champ be the 3rd tank slot, but as for VW it requires more skill for one player to deliver it s full potential than BM or hero.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 2:04 PM by Giorgione88

I played a lot with champions in duo
Bard + champion its one of the best duos if not the best.
I played whole beta and in smallmen during the 5v5 events about all good grps had a champ ( ST is op , debuffs can remove an anemy savage from the game)
any tank group need one ( with hands cause its not so easy like to play a bm or a hero). Having no stoicism you have always to take care on purging the right cc
or a debuff + root will remove u from the fight for too long even if you have det 9 .

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:40 PM by Foofmonger

Sei wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:39 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:42 AM
Champs and Vw shine in melee groups, and if your group has half a brain cell it would look like this:

Champ vw hero bm ward druid druid bard

Don t you think there is a reasons if tank group run double bards ? (Tip : it s not about perma endu+ speed songs )

This said champ be the 3rd tank slot, but as for VW it requires more skill for one player to deliver it s full potential than BM or hero.

There's some flexibility in tank groups, you don't "have" to run double bard (or double druid), or even 4 melees.

I'd say the basics are: 1 Druid, 1 Bard, 3 Meeles (at least one being a hero/bm).

The rest is up to what you want be doing. You can go with the 5 naturalist route and fill with warden/bard/druid if you want to be as survivable as possible. You can go 3 melee/4 nats/1 caster support (mentalist or eldy). You can even do the good old 5 melee/3 nattys, although its probably the most one dimensional/lest flexible option.

The VW certainly has some pros/cons in this context but it can definitely work. I wouldn't disagree that it has a higher skill cap then Hero/BM, that should be pretty obvious, but that doesn't really mean much in terms of balance discussion.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:17 PM by opossum12

Sei wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 1:39 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 11:42 AM
Champs and Vw shine in melee groups, and if your group has half a brain cell it would look like this:

Champ vw hero bm ward druid druid bard

Don t you think there is a reasons if tank group run double bards ? (Tip : it s not about perma endu+ speed songs )

This said champ be the 3rd tank slot, but as for VW it requires more skill for one player to deliver it s full potential than BM or hero.

Edit : read your post wrong lol... yeah dbl bard for dbl demezzer, which is important. You could drop a tank for a second bard and run the 5 natty way, you would probably drop the VW if you did that, to keep the BM dps, champ debuffs and hero dashing defense.

Giorgione88 wrote: I played whole beta and in smallmen during the 5v5 events about all good grps had a champ ( ST is op , debuffs can remove an anemy savage from the game)
any tank group need one ( with hands cause its not so easy like to play a bm or a hero).

The 5v5 group setup (even 6v6) was champ+savage+3 support, in 6v6 it was champ+sav+4 supports lol. Having champ+sav assist would 1 round softer targets.