Am I wrong...or is Warden the most boring/underwhelming class in any realm?

Anyone else?

Sun 25 Aug 2019 7:43 AM by Aph

Peels, pbt, heals, det, VH, aotg & twf.

Compared with cleric for example:
Buffs, heal, stun, bof & di.

I think warden is great. In melee setup the shield spec wouldn’t do any difference and the way it’s played in caster setup I don’t think it would break the game with shield spec either. So giving them shield spec is probably fine? There’s not many reasons to do so though.

Oh and I’m only talking 8v8 or perhaps 5v5.

Can’t balance the game for 1v1.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 2:32 PM by Hector

You are wrong.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 5:14 PM by Aph

I forgot to mention that wardens are the main base buffer aswell. This might seem inferior, but having bases on warden instead of the bard impacts the play style a lot! The bard can now play a lot more aggressively without a big punish if he dies.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 6:24 PM by relvinian

it's pretty bad.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 10:33 PM by Leandrys

Great in regular 8men groups, boring and quickly limited in most pugs.

Sun 25 Aug 2019 11:50 PM by ExcretusMaximus

It's not a class for people who aren't good enough to utilize all of its tools, and it has a lot of tools.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 5:54 AM by Aph

I’d say it is on the low side of how many buttons each class have. There’s slot of skill involved in positioning and using the tools correctly. The RA’s are all high impact and the play style of the warden varies a lot depending on group setup and enemy composition.

I guess warden has 6 buttons not counting bases

Mon 26 Aug 2019 6:29 AM by REVOLTE

who cares how many buttons a class has rly.
playing a warden is about being aware of your surroundings, having good timing and choosing the correct one of your many options.

short: wardens are awesome.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 6:41 AM by Leandrys

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 11:50 PM
It's not a class for people who aren't good enough to utilize all of its tools, and it has a lot of tools.

A lot ? What ?

Cure, side snare, one single heal and one very mediocre group heal, BTs. Let's add "add damage" song if you really want another "tool", but... It's poor normal skill's wise in combat, really poor, it's the second poorest class after chanter without RAs lol, and RAs arn't the hardest ones to use whe you compare them to basic skills on any class. Base buffs increase a lot her total utility, but it's not really hard to put base buffs you know.

Friars have more "tools" lol, yet they're rare, but it's not like having greater spec heal + cure NS 3,5s + resists against hibernia's debuff train + side&backsnare (if they train more in staff tho, not worth it imo)+ VR & TS, nah.

Let's be honnest for a bit, warden's strength isn't in her tool's number, it's the fact the small number of tools she brings to a group are the ones serious 8men are in need of, because they have the skills and the coordonation to use them, pugs do not, the same way alb pugs can not exploit decently friars.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 10:29 AM by kiectred

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 6:41 AM
ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 25 Aug 2019 11:50 PM
It's not a class for people who aren't good enough to utilize all of its tools, and it has a lot of tools.

A lot ? What ?

Cure, side snare, one single heal and one very mediocre group heal, BTs. Let's add "add damage" song if you really want another "tool", but... It's poor normal skill's wise in combat, really poor, it's the second poorest class after chanter without RAs lol, and RAs arn't the hardest ones to use whe you compare them to basic skills on any class. Base buffs increase a lot her total utility, but it's not really hard to put base buffs you know.

Friars have more "tools" lol, yet they're rare, but it's not like having greater spec heal + cure NS 3,5s + resists against hibernia's debuff train + side&backsnare (if they train more in staff tho, not worth it imo)+ VR & TS, nah.

Let's be honnest for a bit, warden's strength isn't in her tool's number, it's the fact the small number of tools she brings to a group are the ones serious 8men are in need of, because they have the skills and the coordonation to use them, pugs do not, the same way alb pugs can not exploit decently friars.

You listed VR as a friar tool and I guess you forgot that wardens get it, too. And you mention TS (I assume you meant ST?) but ignore TWF. You mention friar resists specific to hib debuff train but don't mention warden resists for alb's debuff train. Friar heals are just as shitty as warden in basically every way minus the new greater heal which is nice but a power sink. Meanwhile wardens get speed (which you don't mention), the damage add, the BTs, and AotG. Then there's the probably underutilized short bow which may be shit but it's ranged DPS which friars do not have.

So friar has greater heals and cure NS, then there's a fair bit of overlap, and then warden has a bunch of things friars don't have.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 4:32 PM by Leandrys

Oh god...

Mon 26 Aug 2019 6:27 PM by ExcretusMaximus

I said tools, not buttons.

God, you people are obtuse.

Mon 26 Aug 2019 8:13 PM by kiectred

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 4:32 PM
Oh god...

Is that a reference to me, or your own realization at how disingenuous your post was?

Mon 26 Aug 2019 9:57 PM by Leandrys

Yeah, you're right, warden has many more tools than friars. Bye.

Tue 27 Aug 2019 5:27 AM by kiectred

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Mon 26 Aug 2019 9:57 PM
Yeah, you're right, warden has many more tools than friars. Bye.

Easy mistake, no worries.

Tue 27 Aug 2019 2:36 PM by Luriella

tbh with shield spec this was my favorite class .

Tue 27 Aug 2019 3:40 PM by Leandrys

kiectred wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 5:27 AM
Easy mistake, no worries.

Sarcasm. The numbers of people around here always ready to derail every topic talking about hibernia is crazy, for the record someone said :

"It's not a class for people who aren't good enough to utilize all of its tools, and it has a lot of tools" while it precisely doesn't have that much tools to use in combat and is pretty simple to play, mostly depending of the rest of the group to do any RP, especially now TWF was nerfed.

Warden's speed ? 99% useless, almost the same for add damage song, only PBT is interesting, endu regen 100% useless. AOTG ? Very nice addition in debuff assist train, right ? Useless in 80% of groups. I repeat, in combat wardens have 1 single heal, 1 bad group heal, two basic cure, BT song, side snare and that's basically it, add AOTG or TWF, purge, VR, woohee, so hard to master. Rest is all about positionning and momentum, just like most of the basic classes we have here without their whole liveserver kit.

Ha yes, there's a bow. Well, warden will give albion the bow in exchange of insta taunt rupting, ok ?

The point is there's nothing hard to master with warden, your quickbars are basically emptied of combat skills and abilities compared to a huge majority of classes, even compared to friars which still has more tools to use, that quoted message was just about disinformation.

Tue 27 Aug 2019 4:46 PM by CronU

Leandrys wrote: ↑
Tue 27 Aug 2019 3:40 PM
...while it precisely doesn't have that much tools to use in combat...

imo this is the correct part of your post. i'm totally with you.
The point is that his small amount of tools he has, combined on one single class, are those that are effecting the fights the most.

Body resistance - strong against alb grps.
Red bubble - strong against mid grps.
Third healer - strong against any grps, while other realms cant easily run a third healer like this.
AotG - strong inside a melee based grp.
TWF - strong in any kind of grp.
Sidesnare on a Healclass to have a backline snare if needed - Just one other class got this, the Friar. And since you cant run 3 support setups in Alb without loosing a DPS class, he is not an option.

Imo i'd even say that the Warden is the Mainhealer of Hibernia. Since the Buffdruid is crippled with low Healspec, and the Nature Druid always up front Rooting/rupting.
He also open up the Bard, as mentioned by someone else earlier, to be not the basebuffer and supports a more aggressive bard playstyle.

Those facts all combined on one single character makes him a must have for every single Hib grp.
Does he have ALOT of tools? No, no he doesn't. But those that he has, are all very important and change the outcome of a fight, if used correctly as a whole grp.

Wed 28 Aug 2019 2:52 PM by Aph

Cleric in combat buttons:
Single heal, spread heal, single stun, cures

This is with your comparison leaving out ra’s, buffs etc. So that’s 5 buttons.

Chanter: 6 buttons with pet
Mentalist: 6 buttons with pet
Druid: 6 buttons if buff spec including pet

I’m pretty sure it’s the same with bd, fire wizard & theurg. Probably more.

The point is: a lot of classes only have a few buttons if you exclude toys. Daoc rvr is very simple which makes it amazingly well balanced and fun regarding group vs group.

If you absolutely want a lot of buttons here’s a few classes:

Bard, eld (split), cab (tri), minst, rm, pac, shaman (tri), earth wiz?

Have fun

Wed 28 Aug 2019 6:35 PM by Leandrys

8/9 for clerics, easily, more for druids, menta 8/9 approx, etc...

Chanter is by far one of the poorest class when it comes to count skills and one of the most easiest to play, it's one of the only classes in classic daoc that has less stuff in quickbars than, theurg and fire wiz still have more things to manage in combat than chanter.

But let's be honnest, average player's skills is meh on Phoenix, at the time i was playing on live, every decent melees with shield were switching in defensive mode between each swing, even in battlegrounds, here it's worth talking about tha player who does so with amazed eyes, it's pretty fun. There's a reason why a lot of player didn't enjoy live server at all at some point, it was just too complicated for a lot of them to manage TOA/champion's stuff/new items, that's also why we have that rampant nostalgia for classic daoc, while 1.65 was reasonnably trash in its vanilla state when it comes to balance.

Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:32 AM by The Skies Asunder

I agree with Warden being pretty boring. I think a large part of that is a lot of people probably played Warden during ToA, and DR though. They could have literally an entire class worth of abilities added on to them through MLs and CLs, had more spec abilities added to the class, had shield spec, and access to lots of /uses from artifacts, and other items. By comparison the Warden prior to those things seems very bad. I don't think the class is bad though, I just don't enjoy it. Which is unfortunate, as it was my favorite class on live. During ToA of course. I would still like to see shield spec and increased spec points though.

Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:50 AM by gotwqqd

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:32 AM
I agree with Warden being pretty boring. I think a large part of that is a lot of people probably played Warden during ToA, and DR though. They could have literally an entire class worth of abilities added on to them through MLs and CLs, had more spec abilities added to the class, had shield spec, and access to lots of /uses from artifacts, and other items. By comparison the Warden prior to those things seems very bad. I don't think the class is bad though, I just don't enjoy it. Which is unfortunate, as it was my favorite class on live. During ToA of course. I would still like to see shield spec and increased spec points though.

I’m 2 buns from 50 and this assessment is spot on.
I think the class would be better if they allowed 2 of the “chants” to run at once.

Thu 29 Aug 2019 6:47 AM by Sepplord

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:50 AM
The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:32 AM
I agree with Warden being pretty boring. I think a large part of that is a lot of people probably played Warden during ToA, and DR though. They could have literally an entire class worth of abilities added on to them through MLs and CLs, had more spec abilities added to the class, had shield spec, and access to lots of /uses from artifacts, and other items. By comparison the Warden prior to those things seems very bad. I don't think the class is bad though, I just don't enjoy it. Which is unfortunate, as it was my favorite class on live. During ToA of course. I would still like to see shield spec and increased spec points though.
I’m 2 buns from 50 and this assessment is spot on.
I think the class would be better if they allowed 2 of the “chants” to run at once.

ofcourse it would be better....but it would be even less intresting to play

Thu 29 Aug 2019 8:57 AM by CronU

The Skies Asunder wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:32 AM
I would still like to see shield spec and increased spec points though.

And i think warden is OP enough. As said earlier.. he doesn't have many tools, but those that he has are those of importance for fights. So he has a savespot in every single rvr grp.
Making him even more OP (op inside a fullgrp) wouldn't help at all, it would make the class maybe more 'fun' to play, but it would make an OP class, even more OP.
No thanks from my side.
Leave him as he is right now.

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 29 Aug 2019 5:50 AM
I think the class would be better if they allowed 2 of the “chants” to run at once.

Minstrel would be 'better' if they allow 2 chants at the same time as well... but it also would make the minstrel even more OP then minstrels already are.

Tue 24 Sep 2019 2:57 PM by Razur Ur

Lol warden is op enough ;-D good joke, that is the reason for so much warden on hib groups or what? Without slam is warden really really boring only resis is nice and twf and this was and btw friar have static, better heals and cure ns!

Tue 24 Sep 2019 4:28 PM by chryso

Doesn't warden have speed and pbt and damage add?

Wed 25 Sep 2019 5:35 AM by REVOLTE

chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 24 Sep 2019 4:28 PM
Doesn't warden have speed and pbt and damage add?

yes.
drawback is, that only one can be active at a time, since they all count as chants. you could technically pulse the dmg add in when the tiny bit of extra burst is really needed AND your imaginary melee friends happen to be in range.

edit because this post seems awkwardly negative: i still think that warden is stupidly strong under the correct circumstances.

Wed 25 Sep 2019 8:15 AM by gotwqqd

REVOLTE wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Sep 2019 5:35 AM
chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 24 Sep 2019 4:28 PM
Doesn't warden have speed and pbt and damage add?

yes.
drawback is, that only one can be active at a time, since they all count as chants. you could technically pulse the dmg add in when the tiny bit of extra burst is really needed AND your imaginary melee friends happen to be in range.

edit because this post seems awkwardly negative: i still think that warden is stupidly strong under the correct circumstances.

This is more about engrossing/fun playability than how “powerful” the class is.

And your take supports my feeling

Wed 25 Sep 2019 8:21 AM by Razur Ur

chryso wrote: ↑
Tue 24 Sep 2019 4:28 PM
Doesn't warden have speed and pbt and damage add?

Speed have bard too and better! Only BT is nice but this is useless vs caster groups and that is the reason for only good resis! He can only peel but
not block for another without shild skill and this is shitty. ON live is he only op because of bodyguard and buffshear style but not because of slam
and btw. on live server have slam only 5 sec. stun ^_^.

Wed 25 Sep 2019 8:39 AM by Tritri

Sorry but PBT is the strongest against caster group because they always have one melee to peel, and this melee can go insane trying to peel off the tanks because of the pbt

When you have a melee comp, you care less about the pbt because you either split for rupt (and don't care much about pbt) or assist to kill (and don't care much about missing one hit in the assist train)

PBT is super strong against single peeler, especially slow hitting peelers like armsman

Warden on this server is a support, he's here to bring strong single target heal to allow for the offense druid to go and root the opponents supports without having to heal
If you have a Warden, for me, it's role is to be secondary healer, before the second druid

Wed 25 Sep 2019 8:55 AM by Razur Ur

a warden cannot a second drood replace! Second drood have root and betters heals and insta heals + DI +pet+pr and bt is not so great how you it said. Versus Tank
groups is nice but not vs caster groups with cast root special vs Alb Caster Group.

If you play only hib caster kite group with bard drood warden and 5 caster than i give you right can this work with replace second drood.

Wed 25 Sep 2019 9:12 AM by Tritri

You misunderstood, I never talked about replacing

I'm talking about playing with 2 druid + bard + warden, but the offensive druid can heal less and help more with the rupting and crowd controlling of the enemies supports/casters. He can play more offensive knowing that the Warden is behind for the single target support heal.

Wed 25 Sep 2019 9:21 AM by Razur Ur

Tritri wrote: ↑
Wed 25 Sep 2019 9:12 AM
You misunderstood, I never talked about replacing

I'm talking about playing with 2 druid + bard + warden, but the offensive druid can heal less and help more with the rupting and crowd controlling of the enemies supports/casters. He can play more offensive knowing that the Warden is behind for the single target support heal.

Ok that is right as third support healer is he nice but not a must have in a hib group.