Azuell wrote: ↑Fri 7 Feb 2020 5:44 PM
I understand there were oversights as it would be impossible to create a game this complex without overlooking things. I'm not saying there is no way this wasn't an oversight but moreso just playing devil's advocate.
The reasoning of their closest relatives receiving the points, so they should too is sound. However, the realms weren't designed with perfect symmetry so it's hard to say for sure what Mythic's thought process was when making decisions. I can just imagine a scenario where they were at the drawing board discussing the bard. Person A says they think the bard is slightly too powerful and needs a minor adjustment. They suggest reducing the starting dex of the celt race. Person B says well that will also affect other classes, what if we just remove dex as a per level stat (or replace it with a stat that has no effect).
This is where Sepplord's argument comes in. The stats other similar classes receive is irrelevant as balance changes after the game went live were done with the stats these classes had in mind, not the stats they were supposed to have.
Say for example each class has a number that represents it's "overall power" and they want every class as close to 100 as possible. They originally give the friar quickness as a per level stat which results in a score of 105. They decide to change quickness to str which dropped them to 100. As the game changes, classes have become more powerful. The new target score is now 115 but friars are still at 100, they need a buff. Giving them their quickness back only gets them to 105 which isn't enough so they give them a self dex/quick buff which raises them to 117.
Assume this is where we're at now on Phoenix with friars being marginally over powered. What you're proposing is giving them an additional +5 to their "power" score just because other similar classes get this per level stat but you're not considering the classes as a whole. You are just looking at one small portion and saying this should equal this and it doesn't, that's not fair.
Just to be clear the above example is completely hypothetical and over simplified. I'm not saying friars are currently over powered. I think what Sepplord is saying is, if you think these classes need a buff then adjusting this would be fine but make a case that the class needs a buff and consider the class as a whole, not just that their stats aren't equal to another class. If you don't think the class needs a buff, then why make unnecessary changes?
Also, if quickness was originally intended to be the casting stat, then what was dex supposed to do? Either way casters were getting a useless stat hence it being by design and not an oversight.
I would LOVE that this was the case, since it is exactly how modern Games approach in Balancing... The problem is that they 99% did not use that kind of method, for some reason:
1) At the time there still wasn't the "Balance Culture" that we have right now, a side from major patch and huge uproar of the Community (Left Axe, Warlock & Ecc) the buffs and nerfs were minor in the History of DAoC.
2) They clearly did not use that Method, if they used it, there is no way that Classes like Minstrel, Skald, Reaver or certain other Classes could be in their current form (In terms of Power / Utility Ratio, not in terms of OP or not)
3) Little precisation for the Quickness Stat... At the start Quickness was supposed to influence the Time needed to Recast a Spell when Interrupted (Not reduce Cast Time), this is why Caster have it... They later justified that saying that indeed they couldn't give them Constitution for their fragile nature and they kept Quickness since at least helped them on the Swing Time (And the Recast after Attacking) the rare occasion they need to do it aka finishing a Mob or Melee Interrupt someone and then Cast a Spell (Quickness still affect the time needed to Recast after YOU attack)
4) What CLEARLY happen is that in the case of Bard, since he is a Naturalist and Naturalist Heal through Emphaty they wanted to give the Bard also a Healing Stat, but they probably made a mistake and made the Healings on Charisma (Instead of leaving Charisma only for the DD Damage), after that they didn't even bother changing it, because as mentioned before, there wasn't really a huge Min/Maxing culture at the time... Even now 90% of the people that play DAoC don't even know what Stats really do or affect your Character.
Instead what happened with the Friar is even more Clear, since it was literally written on the Client at the time... During the Beta Phase the Staff Damage was based on Strenght, they changed it later on in Dex, obviusly Friar had at the time the right Stat, but when they changed it to Dex for helping Caster to level they completly overlooked/forgot that they gave Strenght to Friar. (And aside from few people that mentioned it few times is was not really a huge topic that gathered the attention of Mythic, so they simply didn't do anything)
(And btw, there is a Class comparable to Friar, Warden is pretty much the same Class as the Friar... Hybrid Melee Healer/Utility Buffer with access to Melee Skill, the only difference is one use Blade/Blunt and Chain and one use Staff and Leather+Absorb Buff, but Warden get all useful Stats AND the one that increase his Melee Damage)
So yeah, it was not something calculated or wanted by Mythic, it was simply something that slipped off and they forgot/didn't care to fix since there were like 10 people at best that whined about it, there wasn't a culture of Min/Maxing at the time, and the less experienced people justified Mythic with things like "Emp for Bard increase Healing!" or "Strenght for Friar increase Weapon Skill!", which obviusly both are not true.
Also I would like to point out, that this Game do not really have a "Balance", there is not a Statusquo that need to be preserved, that is for the nature itself of the Game... If tomorrow Phoenix Staff to make a prank and would give 20 Strenght to a BladeMaster, 20 Piety to Cleric or 20 Intelligence to Eldritch without telling to anybody, nobody will feel the difference or notice it, that for how Stats works on this Game... Nobody will come and say "Wow, don't you feel that today X Class is stronger?".
People Buy Aug-X RAs because they improve their Character in a minor way with very few RAs Point... And ARGUABLY the only Stat that give the major changes/improvement is Dex, just because of how Interrupts works in this Game... But even there, the changes are a matter of "Once in a 100 times I will get away with one more Cast" (Game changing in that situation? Well, sometimes yes, more frequently no).
They never made this Game to be balanced, and the only balance changes that they really made were the ones where to Community literally destroyed Forums or Boards for it to be changed.
If they really wanted to Balance the Game (Or if they think at the core that there is a "Balance to preserve"
they would never allowed things like:
Troll's Racial Strenght Stats for Melee Classes.
Warrior's 2H Damage (With Celerity Up literally more frontload damage than a Berserker NOT in Vendo Form).
Berserker's Vendo's 1-100% Critical DAMAGE in PvP.
Minstrel's everything (lol).
Reaver's Leviathan.
Albion's Dexterity Races and Class Combination.
Hibernia's Animists Damage/AOE Potential.
Albion's Plate Armor.
Midgard's having Celerity while other Realm don't.
Theurgist's having free interrupts.
And I could go on and on.
And while a lot of these subjects are debatable, are for sure things that hinder the "Balance", a "Balance" that never really existed and do not need to be preserved, since indeed it does not really exist.
Friar and Bard are the only two Classes that got screwed by an error, and that error need to be fixed... You want to fix it in the more impactful way? You give them both Dexterity... You want to fix it in a less impactful way? You give them Strenght (Bard) and Quickness (Friar), that will not change how these Class play/perform, but at least you give them what they were supposed to have since the beginning and they are not gimped to the core being the only two Classes in the entire Game to have a non-utilized Stat.
The argument "If it does not really matter, why change it?" is for sure more in favor of doing it than not doing it... Since is a matter of fairness.
Also all these comments of "preserving the current status" I don't even know what sense do have in a Server like Phoenix, they are actively changing things and bad designs for improving the State of DAoC and remove/improve the past mistakes that Mythic did... This is one of them.
You are telling me that all the other changes (Even more impactful) are fine? But this one is not?
They nerfed in half the effectiveness of Light-Tank on Shield users.
They literally changed how Thanes works, they made them borderline OP (I'm happy about that since is my Main, but that not forbid me to say how it is or advocating only for my Class).
They changed which Classes can obtain determinate RAs.
They changed Damages and Skills for a lot of Classes.
They gave us a TOA Races which should not be avaiable.
But doesn't seems that a lot of people made a crusade after these things... But now, for 23 more Strenght on a Class that will Melee Attack once in 30 Days or 15 more Quickness on a Class that is mostly never picked in Group if not out of pity that will make him swing 0.075s faster and 0.375% more Evade, is a thing that will affect the Game/Balance? Or a thing that is not deserved? Come on, at that point is more like arguying against changes just for the sake of it... If people didn't care/wanted about these type of changes they would be still playing on Uthgard with a 1:1 Patch.
