Tweak the animist nerf pls. - Phoenix Freeshard

I believe the animist nerf was a bridge too far, or not far enough.

The range is 300? That means that if you target the animist with a mez you not only mez the animist but all his shrooms.

It is just too too much.

When the necro got nerfed it was very short, we gave feedback, and you increased tether somewhat.

Today in the keep take bg in hib, there were no animists. Like none.

If everybody plays a class then it is probably too powerful. If nobody plays it, particularly a signature class-- it is freaking hib!!-- then probably it was nerfed to oblivion.

My suggestion is whatever you made necro tether, make animist groundtarget range. At least 500 so they can not have all their shooms mez with one spell.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 6:47 AM by Druth

I think the 300 range is to low, but tone down the "hib's the victim" syndrome.

Shrooms were placed on oil area and on roof of inner keep, and Hibs posting here thought that was okay.
I would have thought they were victims a lot more, if I had seen hibs posting they also thought it was wrong.

It's the same old story in DaoC. Class is OP broken, people ferociously defend it, instead of coming up with constructive ways to fix the problem, and then it gets hammered hard.

I am 95% certain that if hibs had spend their time agreeing it was broken, and their energy coming up with solutions, then you'd have a better fix now than this.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 6:51 AM by Lollie

They should just remove the ability to raise ground target for shrooms, this would have probably stopped the abuse and not hammered the class.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:01 AM by gotwqqd

Lollie wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 6:51 AM
They should just remove the ability to raise ground target for shrooms, this would have probably stopped the abuse and not hammered the class.

Hammered the class?
Doesn’t this only affect when close to a keep?

Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:31 AM by Lollie

Keeps and towers aye, 700 range reduction is too much. Chuck in the nerf/fix to tanglers and shroom limits then the class (not sure if there are anymore), in my eyes, has been hammered. I know its somewhat self inflicted by the actions of animist and abusing the window thing but you can't keep taking things away from a class without having a negative effect on the players.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:52 AM by Druth

Lollie wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:31 AM
I know its somewhat self inflicted by the actions of animist and abusing the window thing but you can't keep taking things away from a class without having a negative effect on the players.

Somewhat is understatement of the week.
Obviously, but not nerfing also has a negative impact on many more people.
Buffing is not really an option, because then people would complain their class got indirectly nerfed, or they aldo needs buffs.

And animists has gotten 2 major nerfs:
- Shroom limit, which was done both for server health (lag), but also because without it no other realm could fight hibs in siege, and hib PvE would be nothing but animists.
- Siege 300 range, which was done because animists kept abusing GT. This should have been 500 range

and they have gotten 2 major bug-fixes:
- tanglers stopped being intelligent (nerf)
- shrooms got more hp's (buff)

Animists still have issues, with one being that bombers apparently don't interrupt.

We would likely have a much cleaner, better working, version of animists if the focus from all sides had been to fix problems, and not defend/attack broken stuff.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM by Chaskha

The moments you change skills conditionally to structures, you got to realize that it is not a good solution.
Change range of cast if close to a tower or castle: bad solution
Change number of shrooms in instances (or theurg pets): bad solution

However, these are SOLUTIONS to a problem we all have to agree on.

Structures fights and abuses of putting shrooms in almost untargettable places was a bit of a problem.
A possibly better solution:
* Range of cast remains 1000: remember it means anyone at 1001 will never be hit and depending on the class can AE mez the shrooms, AE destroy, AE dot.
* Z axis diminishes distance by 3 per 1: casting at 1000 but at 300 of height, impossible, you'd have to be at 100 distance to put the shrooms in 300 height.

Number of shrooms:
Theory : Pet spam classes are played by players who, amazingly, like to spam pets, no kidding
The issue is that the spam/second is too high basically offering to a single class, in specific circumstances though, to overdps any other. By a big range.
A possibly better solution:
Diminishing return of some sort - attacks of the same sort of pets provide a temporary resistance to that type of attack (up to 25% resists) by 5% reseting to 0 after 30s of no hit by pets. In the case of shrooms the first attack would increase resists of 5%, second pet hit 10% and so on.... the last 10 pets (if cap would be 15) would get a 25% resist and the mob would get its resists up to +25% during the whole battle. That would be easy to tweak, increase this to 6% for some boss, 2% for others, get the cap to +50% or whatever but keep the animist able to spam (yes that's what we like) shrooms all over the place. Hell, if it's possible, add this kind of mechanic to RvR so we can once again put 30 or more shrooms per area.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 9:16 AM by Wooshh

I had some keep atk and def in these days. The mayor problem was still mushrooms,so they r still very useful in keep defense, at least we dont see them in oil area

Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM by Isavyr

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
The moments you change skills conditionally to structures, you got to realize that it is not a good solution.

Seems precise to me. The problem is structures, and the solution is structures. Your proposed changes basically amount to the same thing, though I worry it'd actually affect open-field fights when it's least relevant.

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
Theory : Pet spam classes are played by players who, amazingly, like to spam pets, no kidding

Not necessarily. I have an animist and I didn't create it to spam shrooms, but to use them intelligently. Unfortunately the class is designed as a pet spam class, and most support abilities are too weak to be worth using. But that doesn't mean that's how it should be either. It's a badly designed class, as you yourself understand. I think Animists need to be a little more creative and less set on setting up honey-pots with their shrooms, which is a frankly stupid way to play.

Until GMs show they are willing to overhaul animist (I doubt they are), the best they can do is manage little nerfs. I will say, as an enemy of the animist, I am very glad of these changes.

Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:33 PM by Chaskha

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
The moments you change skills conditionally to structures, you got to realize that it is not a good solution.

Seems precise to me. The problem is structures, and the solution is structures. Your proposed changes basically amount to the same thing, though I worry it'd actually affect open-field fights when it's least relevant.

The proposed solution is just an idea but it would be triggered only at the moment you use the mouse wheel to actively use the Z Axis.
I don't see how it could affect open-field.

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
Theory : Pet spam classes are played by players who, amazingly, like to spam pets, no kidding

Not necessarily. I have an animist and I didn't create it to spam shrooms, but to use them intelligently. Unfortunately the class is designed as a pet spam class, and most support abilities are too weak to be worth using. But that doesn't mean that's how it should be either. It's a badly designed class, as you yourself understand. I think Animists need to be a little more creative and less set on setting up honey-pots with their shrooms, which is a frankly stupid way to play.

Until GMs show they are willing to overhaul animist (I doubt they are), the best they can do is manage little nerfs. I will say, as an enemy of the animist, I am very glad of these changes.

Oh yes while it is a class that I love very much, I agree that its design is flawed. Yet I enjoy the shrooms spam concept, the ability to cover an area of little angry attackers which will both sometimes insta-kill a fool getting too close but will also be harmless against almost anything that have tools with a distance over 1000.
I don't judge the ways to play of people, sometimes I don't understand yet I keep in mind the goal of a game is to have fun with a challenge going from basic to hard.
Each gameplay has its community, each community is taken a piece of the pie. It's logical that the big piece is taken care of a bit more than the smaller pieces.
Hence some frustration sometimes ...

Changing the animist from the 2003 too much is very understandable yet for many it's hard to take. A big change at the start, that's ok. You decide to go with it or not. Nerfs after nerfs after the launch ? I don't think it's a nice feeling even if you are a pragmatic and understanding person.

But yes, some classes would be better off being redesigned - down that road is also not DAoC anymore tho (might be for the best, I'm not trying to be cynical).

Tue 16 Jul 2019 1:19 AM by relvinian

Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 7:33 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
The moments you change skills conditionally to structures, you got to realize that it is not a good solution.

Seems precise to me. The problem is structures, and the solution is structures. Your proposed changes basically amount to the same thing, though I worry it'd actually affect open-field fights when it's least relevant.
The proposed solution is just an idea but it would be triggered only at the moment you use the mouse wheel to actively use the Z Axis.
I don't see how it could affect open-field.

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
Chaskha wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 8:35 AM
Theory : Pet spam classes are played by players who, amazingly, like to spam pets, no kidding

Not necessarily. I have an animist and I didn't create it to spam shrooms, but to use them intelligently. Unfortunately the class is designed as a pet spam class, and most support abilities are too weak to be worth using. But that doesn't mean that's how it should be either. It's a badly designed class, as you yourself understand. I think Animists need to be a little more creative and less set on setting up honey-pots with their shrooms, which is a frankly stupid way to play.

Until GMs show they are willing to overhaul animist (I doubt they are), the best they can do is manage little nerfs. I will say, as an enemy of the animist, I am very glad of these changes.
Oh yes while it is a class that I love very much, I agree that its design is flawed. Yet I enjoy the shrooms spam concept, the ability to cover an area of little angry attackers which will both sometimes insta-kill a fool getting too close but will also be harmless against almost anything that have tools with a distance over 1000.
I don't judge the ways to play of people, sometimes I don't understand yet I keep in mind the goal of a game is to have fun with a challenge going from basic to hard.
Each gameplay has its community, each community is taken a piece of the pie. It's logical that the big piece is taken care of a bit more than the smaller pieces.
Hence some frustration sometimes ...

Changing the animist from the 2003 too much is very understandable yet for many it's hard to take. A big change at the start, that's ok. You decide to go with it or not. Nerfs after nerfs after the launch ? I don't think it's a nice feeling even if you are a pragmatic and understanding person.

But yes, some classes would be better off being redesigned - down that road is also not DAoC anymore tho (might be for the best, I'm not trying to be cynical).

I also questioned this. I thought, all these animist changes might be interesting but at what point does it stop being daoc?

Tue 16 Jul 2019 1:24 AM by Leandrys

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Mon 15 Jul 2019 1:15 PM
I think Animists need to be a little more creative and less set on setting up honey-pots with their shrooms, which is a frankly stupid way to play.

Meanwhile, 95% of BDs, Reavers and wardens could be resumed by : "i press Z, stop pressing Z, plant TWF, instantly die, kill 5-25 players".

Sure, animists clearly have to L2P, everybody else on the server is playing in such a beautiful and expert way.

Tue 16 Jul 2019 3:30 AM by relvinian

Nerfs hurt the server.