To the GM: Reasonable Critizism of the Salvage nerf, and why its the wrong move

Started 14 May 2019
by Gorgoroth
in Suggestions
Hello all,

So first of all thanks to the GM and Server owner for trying to address the issue of inflation. I see where you are coming from and that you act is great. However, the step of basically drastically decreasing the Salvage loot is not only counterproductive to this goal but has a lot of additional negative consequences.

Let me outline why I think this and what my reasons for those things are.

1. Assumption: Decreasing the amount of solo farmable gold will decrease inflation and reduce prices in the market
Why this is wrong: The amount of gold in the Bank for seasoned players is already quite high for many so those people will remain mostly unscathed by the changes. The players affected are new joiners to the server or players who wish to play a solo char and trying to temp. Those people, who are selling on the market, being it ROG or Crafted gear will be able to sell their stuff for the same price (since crafted items are mostly determined by crafting costs) while new players will be way slower to make gold, farming Salvageable loot.
This is counterproductive to the goal you want to achieve.

2. Assumption (by Gruenesschaf) (cool name btw ): Those changes "gives df dia groups or grouping for gold in general some purpose as before those yellow/orange mobs were the highest average gold value per kill."
Counter-argument: The reason why people go out and play DAoC is for RVR, not to farm gold in DF. Also, not all of the players wish or have a meta-group char to easily get invites to those Farming groups. DF is also not reliably available, (and other level spots will soon be camped, meaning it will lead to competition for gold farming spots, leaving again more players out...) hence puttingMORE restrains on new players to get the necessary funds to afford their SC and Buff Pots (or learn a crafting profession). Decreasing the pool of money makes it extremely difficult to obtain gear and useable stuff.

3. Assumption: Just form groups to farm gold.
Counter-argument: Instead to "quickly" log on with a farm Char and do half an hour here and there and make reasonable funds for your in-game needs, you are nowforced to dedicate a significant portion of your time to farming. Not only because it is much slower, but also that you need to find or build a group, which is most often time-consuming or doesn't work out if you don't have a metacharacter, but also because you commit to farming not for 30 min or 1h once you have a group, but much longer, so that it, on one hand, justifies the effort creating the group/looking for it and that you don't be a jerk to your fellow groupmates who then need to find a replacement.
This is especially true in Midgard btw, as Cabalists in Albion and Animists in Hib don't really have grouping issues, but the Midgard Farmer got pretty much useless now (bonedancer).

4. Assumption: Find other ways of making gold, like Find Exp items and sell it, or Craft for others.
Why this is not a solution: Exp items are already abundant on the market, and doesn't sell for much. You also need to have money for the House rent and it again forces your out of RVR, which is the goal for all of us, into PvE.
Crafting, on the other hand, is very expensive to level up. Even with cheap guides found online. You will need platins to level up your crafter and then find work, which takes you off of RvR for a very long time, as themoney needed to level your crafter is money not invested in a good SC.

Those are things on top of my head with only a bit of analisys of the Salvage loot drop nerf.

I sincerely hope that you consider my concerns, the concerns of your community and are willing to change again, if my Arguments find more agreement than the agreement with the nerf of the Salvage loot.

Conclusion: You basically made all rich players a hell of a lot richer, and new players and solo players a lot poorer by removing easy access to wealth with your loot nerf

Kindest regards and thank you for your time
Tue 14 May 2019 12:06 PM by SlowMo
Maybe Dev´s are willing to consider a moderate increase of salvage values for Rog´s ?
Tue 14 May 2019 12:19 PM by Yokahu
Just to add to item 2. If RNG is not by your side, your teammates might get all the loot while you get zip/nada... just an hour wasted. smh
Tue 14 May 2019 12:36 PM by gruenesschaf
Yokahu wrote:
Tue 14 May 2019 12:19 PM
Just to add to item 2. If RNG is not by your side, your teammates might get all the loot while you get zip/nada... just an hour wasted. smh

Not really the case here though as our loot distribution is not random but fair on a per item category basis, best observed when farming xp items in a group or seals, usually everyone will have the same amount +- 1.
Tue 14 May 2019 12:59 PM by Gorgoroth
gruenesschaf wrote:
Tue 14 May 2019 12:36 PM
Yokahu wrote:
Tue 14 May 2019 12:19 PM
Just to add to item 2. If RNG is not by your side, your teammates might get all the loot while you get zip/nada... just an hour wasted. smh

Not really the case here though as our loot distribution is not random but fair on a per item category basis, best observed when farming xp items in a group or seals, usually everyone will have the same amount +- 1.

Hello @Gruenesschaf,
Thanks for taking the time to comment on this post. But do you not agree with my Arguments? Can we reach a compromise here?

Cheers and BR
Tue 14 May 2019 1:45 PM by kratoxin
Not to mention how many people farm in those spots making it 10x harder now because of how long it takes to gather making it more crowded etc..
Tue 14 May 2019 2:02 PM by Dominus
with the new dragon zone, I know in Sheeroe Hills there are a TON of new areas that are empty and could have mobs copied to them very easily easing the overcrowding of popular farming spots.
Wed 15 May 2019 6:19 PM by Milchschnidde
I see the Salvage nerf in the same area as you, new players get F***ed by the new system, at least i would like to see it as an "equality" at least a 5P reward for completing their first level 50 character-> so at least they could start a career as crafter or theire SC somehow.

I would suggest to increase the slavage ratio a little bit, if you wanted to nerf "Farmchars" Add a system like the XP system per group member,
so increase the drop rate per group char, so i dont know how it is in its current setting, but increase the drop rates with 3-5% per groupmember, so 4 groupmember will have a drop chance of salvage loot of 20-25% and 8 player will have 50% or something like that

=> you fokus more group play, player will organize into "Farm Partys, other then just standard solo farming, they will eventually hunt together.

The current system only nervs non farming classes a lot, like Supporter classes, asassins and some tanks. Only Caster/Hybrids are capable of efficient solo farm.
If you want to nerv solo farming and a few Farmchars, there could be some solution like mine....

regards
Wed 15 May 2019 7:43 PM by Mura
If you wany everything handed to you, you're playing the wrong game. 5p "equality" reward is rediculous at best. You should easily make 1.5-2p on your way to 50, and gold is not hard to make.

It takes an afternoon of pve to be able to afford to buy jewelry, armor, and SC it to make a template. Unless you're going for a multiple MP suit or 90+ utility you can ding 50 and be temped within a day or two.
Wed 15 May 2019 8:54 PM by Milchschnidde
Since nerf the money gain is much lower then it was on live server, so nope that is not current as how it was original. the ROGS are just 1/5 of the Value of standard items.
The QOL changes cant compensate that difference in the current state. Farming is a small part of daoc but not its core ... since you are related to buff potions more or less you need gold to craft alchemistic stuff..

I just wanted to suggest, that an entire new player should get a first "level 50 char" honor, because at my time when i started at the server i started my level 50 career with around 6-7 P :>
Thu 16 May 2019 12:34 AM by Pigleto
Why don't you do what they did on live and make players worth more gold when you kill them. 10 to 20 gold per kill or something like that.
Thu 16 May 2019 2:07 AM by Svekt
If you invest your first 100 gold (probably less) and 1 hour into your character to level metal working and salvage every metal drop on your way to 50 you end up with a lot more plat. I never kept track of it honestly but it was always more than 1-2 plat by 50.

Tailoring (boots and gloves + occasional sleeves) to 300
Tinker metal to 300 (cheap) (mid does not have studded in tailoring)
Level armor crafting (studded) to 300
Level weapon (early weapons then shields asap) crafting to 300

You're roughly at 900 metal now without taking any craft above 300, at this point you can choose to bang out some fletch thrown weapons for more to your metal and probably take armor and weapon to 350 to get 1000. By the time you get to arcanium drops you want to peak metal up to 1100 so that you actually get 3 bars.

This is very casual compared to other servers where it took a lot longer to level metalworking for salvaging purposes. This 1 hour investment makes you a lot of money while leveling because you salvage all studded, chain, weapons etc to bars saving space in your bags for more loot. I mean how annoying is it to have to pop a merchant every 10 mins when you're in a great group with consistent pulls. Tinker when the party disbands and then sell the hinges/gem studded jewelry boxes along with the other junk in your bags and you will see a huge difference.

Just for example, most arcanium drops sell for about 7gold and some change when handed to a vendor. each salvage nets 3 bars which is what 15 gold once tinkered? SO we are talking double your money for each metal drop if you took that 1 hour to level crafting quick. The other benefit to peaking each craft that does metal to only 350 is its consistently using the cheaper materials and fast craft times. /craftqueue ftw and you should have less problems making money on your way to 50.

I understand not everyone wants to invest time into your character here, its been stated many times indirectly through the QOL changes people ask for. But this is by far a valuable thing to do on your character.

Plug into any farm group or build your own and just keep salvaging. I understand a lot of people made their money on the mobs that got nerfed, but its very easy to maintain an income with the 3bar salvage from rogs as that's all I ever did. I truthfully could never be bothered running all the way out to axe hands. I was able to support multiple 50s, recharges on all my soloing toons, the sc, the tg drops (I've done 1 complete tg raid in my life on phoenix and no other feather farming other than from keeps)

SO this divide between the rich and poor is bs. just saying.... before any assumptions are made, I do not play 24/7. I have a job, I'm also a father of a child who still needs my attention, and I get out of the house and do other things besides daoc. I even play other games now too!
Thu 16 May 2019 6:25 AM by Sepplord
Svekt wrote:
Thu 16 May 2019 2:07 AM
If you invest your first 100 gold (probably less) and 1 hour into your character to level metal working and salvage every metal drop on your way to 50 you end up with a lot more plat. I never kept track of it honestly but it was always more than 1-2 plat by 50.

Tailoring (boots and gloves + occasional sleeves) to 300
Tinker metal to 300 (cheap) (mid does not have studded in tailoring)
Level armor crafting (studded) to 300
Level weapon (early weapons then shields asap) crafting to 300

You're roughly at 900 metal now without taking any craft above 300, at this point you can choose to bang out some fletch thrown weapons for more to your metal and probably take armor and weapon to 350 to get 1000. By the time you get to arcanium drops you want to peak metal up to 1100 so that you actually get 3 bars.

This is very casual compared to other servers where it took a lot longer to level metalworking for salvaging purposes. This 1 hour investment makes you a lot of money while leveling because you salvage all studded, chain, weapons etc to bars saving space in your bags for more loot. I mean how annoying is it to have to pop a merchant every 10 mins when you're in a great group with consistent pulls. Tinker when the party disbands and then sell the hinges/gem studded jewelry boxes along with the other junk in your bags and you will see a huge difference.

Just for example, most arcanium drops sell for about 7gold and some change when handed to a vendor. each salvage nets 3 bars which is what 15 gold once tinkered? SO we are talking double your money for each metal drop if you took that 1 hour to level crafting quick. The other benefit to peaking each craft that does metal to only 350 is its consistently using the cheaper materials and fast craft times. /craftqueue ftw and you should have less problems making money on your way to 50.

I understand not everyone wants to invest time into your character here, its been stated many times indirectly through the QOL changes people ask for. But this is by far a valuable thing to do on your character.

Plug into any farm group or build your own and just keep salvaging. I understand a lot of people made their money on the mobs that got nerfed, but its very easy to maintain an income with the 3bar salvage from rogs as that's all I ever did. I truthfully could never be bothered running all the way out to axe hands. I was able to support multiple 50s, recharges on all my soloing toons, the sc, the tg drops (I've done 1 complete tg raid in my life on phoenix and no other feather farming other than from keeps)

SO this divide between the rich and poor is bs. just saying.... before any assumptions are made, I do not play 24/7. I have a job, I'm also a father of a child who still needs my attention, and I get out of the house and do other things besides daoc. I even play other games now too!

i doubt that is worth it before the last levels...the time spent salvaging/trinketing level20drops would be better invested in farming at 50, even after the salvage loot nerfs
Fri 17 May 2019 9:42 AM by Gorgoroth
To some comments above:

"If you invest your first 100 gold (probably less) and 1 hour into your character to level metal working and salvage every metal drop on your way to 50"
Of course I did that and many many other players here did so too. The issue is not learning to salvage, as its cheaper than what you have once you reach 50 on a fresh character, but the time it takes now to solo grind - and group grind - Gold. This nerf removed easy access to wealth, and just like in a real economy, it hurts people who have not much to begin with.
It also forces people OUT of RVR into PvE, and i honestly question how much fun that is for people who would love to focus only on RVR.

"Plug into any farm group or build your own and just keep salvaging. I understand a lot of people made their money on the mobs that got nerfed, but its very easy to maintain an income with the 3bar salvage from rogs as that's all I ever did."

Again: Most people wish to spend time in RVR or have to spend a lot of plat on an SC, to have it 100% to their liking. For example: Do you know how much a good SB temp costs? Lets say, you need to buy the ROGs too. That can easy reach the 30P mark. Now try to farm that, it will take you AGES, compared to what it used to take. Its very discouraging and frustrating for newcomers to this server.


SO this divide between the rich and poor is bs. just saying
Response: No its not. You provided "anecdotal evidence", based on your own experience, most likely made BEFORE the salvage loot nerf, while being already established on this server, as you said you managed to have several toons and crafting disciplines. Great for you.
But nothing that was said so far is a refutation of my argument, that removing easy access to wealth hurts especially new players and has no influence what so ever on prices in the market. Hence making a good SC fairly unachievable for newcomers with a live outside of Daoc and a job.

Furthermore, just ask in /advice how people are now getting gold. Just ask. Most people i spoke to are frustrated about this nerf. I am aware that this is again anecdotal, but probably the one change, where i have not yet read a single one positive opinion about. The only "not negative" response I get are from people who are mostly untouched by this, as they already have wealth accumulated or have no issues with a big time investment into PvE.

Thanks for reading again.

Kindest regards.
Fri 17 May 2019 10:21 AM by Wasted_Content
Gorg this is an excellent post that succinctly and accurately describes the salvaging/loot drop changes. Good on you for making it and I hope it gains some traction.
Fri 17 May 2019 11:26 AM by Valaraukar
Gorgoroth wrote:
Fri 17 May 2019 9:42 AM
SO this divide between the rich and poor is bs. just saying
Response: No its not. You provided "anecdotal evidence", based on your own experience, most likely made BEFORE the salvage loot nerf, while being already established on this server, as you said you managed to have several toons and crafting disciplines. Great for you.
But nothing that was said so far is a refutation of my argument, that removing easy access to wealth hurts especially new players and has no influence what so ever on prices in the market. Hence making a good SC fairly unachievable for newcomers with a live outside of Daoc and a job.

Furthermore, just ask in /advice how people are now getting gold. Just ask. Most people i spoke to are frustrated about this nerf. I am aware that this is again anecdotal, but probably the one change, where i have not yet read a single one positive opinion about. The only "not negative" response I get are from people who are mostly untouched by this, as they already have wealth accumulated or have no issues with a big time investment into PvE.

Thanks for reading again.

Kindest regards.

I totally agree with Gorgoroth (and cheers for the nickname lol!), the changes affect "new players" (leveling ones and freshly made 50) much more than the others. The only way i see to fix the farming issue and low rvr population is to greatly enhance gold and feathers rewards in Frontier Zones, make a relic raid give more gold/feathers than an epic dungeon.
Fri 17 May 2019 11:37 AM by Erok
No one has said how they just wanted to nerf animists in pve without actually nerfing animists?
Fri 17 May 2019 2:27 PM by Valaraukar
Erok wrote:
Fri 17 May 2019 11:37 AM
No one has said how they just wanted to nerf animists in pve without actually nerfing animists?

They nerfed everyone so I hope that was not the point 😂
Fri 17 May 2019 4:00 PM by Svekt
Gorgoroth wrote:
Fri 17 May 2019 9:42 AM
To some comments above:

"If you invest your first 100 gold (probably less) and 1 hour into your character to level metal working and salvage every metal drop on your way to 50"
Of course I did that and many many other players here did so too. The issue is not learning to salvage, as its cheaper than what you have once you reach 50 on a fresh character, but the time it takes now to solo grind - and group grind - Gold. This nerf removed easy access to wealth, and just like in a real economy, it hurts people who have not much to begin with.
It also forces people OUT of RVR into PvE, and i honestly question how much fun that is for people who would love to focus only on RVR.

"Plug into any farm group or build your own and just keep salvaging. I understand a lot of people made their money on the mobs that got nerfed, but its very easy to maintain an income with the 3bar salvage from rogs as that's all I ever did."

Again: Most people wish to spend time in RVR or have to spend a lot of plat on an SC, to have it 100% to their liking. For example: Do you know how much a good SB temp costs? Lets say, you need to buy the ROGs too. That can easy reach the 30P mark. Now try to farm that, it will take you AGES, compared to what it used to take. Its very discouraging and frustrating for newcomers to this server.


SO this divide between the rich and poor is bs. just saying
Response: No its not. You provided "anecdotal evidence", based on your own experience, most likely made BEFORE the salvage loot nerf, while being already established on this server, as you said you managed to have several toons and crafting disciplines. Great for you.
But nothing that was said so far is a refutation of my argument, that removing easy access to wealth hurts especially new players and has no influence what so ever on prices in the market. Hence making a good SC fairly unachievable for newcomers with a live outside of Daoc and a job.

Furthermore, just ask in /advice how people are now getting gold. Just ask. Most people i spoke to are frustrated about this nerf. I am aware that this is again anecdotal, but probably the one change, where i have not yet read a single one positive opinion about. The only "not negative" response I get are from people who are mostly untouched by this, as they already have wealth accumulated or have no issues with a big time investment into PvE.

Thanks for reading again.

Kindest regards.

Before I even address the points you brought up let me clarify I was very much an RvR player. I played in solo, smallman, 8v8 8vX and 8vzerg. I would also prefer to be out there as long as humanly possible then to play pve. however that being said:

1) It also forces people OUT of RVR into PvE, and i honestly question how much fun that is for people who would love to focus only on RVR.

This is part of the game get over it. Daoc was never meant to be insta or easy. It was designed to give you a sense of reward for effort put in. Something that is lost on this current population.

2) For example: Do you know how much a good SB temp costs? Lets say, you need to buy the ROGs too. That can easy reach the 30P mark. Now try to farm that, it will take you AGES, compared to what it used to take. Its very discouraging and frustrating for newcomers to this server.

Yes I know all about good templates, I have 4-5 characters fully templated here, and 6 more on uthgard.... including an SB fully capped on uth, and a fully capped skald here on Phoenix. I know all about 75+ utility rogs and farming remnants etc. I did all this. All without axehands or any other NON-rog drop farm.

3) yes the divide is BS. Because I basically made my entire fortune farming how you have to farm now. Im sorry you havent figured out how to put in effort to be able to rvr longer. Its really really sad how insta you folks want this game to be. there have been a few insta 50 insta suit rvr servers for daoc and they all seem to never have population....

The problem is not the game, or the economy. The problem is the players complaining instead of playing the game. Please keep tweaking so that your casual world can be more casual. The faster and faster that you make it for the newer players, the less they learn about their class and roles. You would think after 20 years old players would have it figured out, a lot of them don't. The new player is actually at a disadvantage when you speed everything up. They still need to learn the game, their role, and class functions. Its really amazing how many people don't even know the difference between guard and protect.

I see it now, Phoenix developers could offer you all 1 marshmallow now or 2 marshmallows 1 month from now if you were willing to wait, many of you would be the give me my marshmallow now kind of kid.
Sat 18 May 2019 10:44 AM by Wasted_Content
Didn't you quit, Banks?

Also, if it takes you 1 month to turn 1 "marshmallow" into 2 then you don't understand the time value of mo...marshmallows.

Get outta here go back to DotA2 where you belong.
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