The easy way to balance Minstrels

Limit them to leather armor and take away climb walls.

Done.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:35 PM by faliv

Yep, climb walls, biggest issue. Pls nerf.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:40 PM by Kaziera

Minstrels are not broken. I dont see your point.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:50 PM by Exploder

The only thing that needs tweaking is the charm for Minstrels. Other than that, it's a balanced class. The constant whining is getting old.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:05 PM by Niix

Put a recast time on charm to 1 second and you will have proper risk vs. reward for charming a higher level pet.

Or you could put a higher mana cost on the charm spell so they can't spam it, or do like mentalists and have the charm cost mana (just make holding a higher level mob take more mana).

Lots of minor options to tweak and fix the actual problem, there is currently little risk to holding higher lvl pets unless you can't setup macros and press a few buttons periodically (annoying but come on, not hard).

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:29 PM by Cadebrennus

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 4:40 PM
Minstrels are not broken. I dont see your point.

A Rogue based class (stealth, climb walls) has CHAINMAIL. That's a huge balance issue.

Ask any Melee DPS class player how long it takes them to take out a chain/scale wearing class (healers etc) vs studded/reinforced (bards) leather or cloth (casters).

Adding chainmail to a Rogue based class was a huge design screwup that still affects the game a decade and a half later. Look at the Minstrel's contemporaries;

Skald: Fighter based, has chainmail (2hand is a Mid thing so it's not exclusive to Skalds. Don't bother bringing it up)

Bard: Healer based, has reinforced. Probably the only healer in the game in less than chain/scale

Minstrel: has rogue abilities as mentioned earlier (stealth, climb walls) but also has chainmail making them the defensive (absorb) equivalent of all fighter and healer based classes in the game with the exception of Paladins/Armsman.

I'm not even going to get into the additional ability of being able to charm pets that are the equivalent of or better than the ability of the other classes that also charm pets. My focus here is on how difficult they are to take down in melee. The only other classes in the game that have chainmail and stun/mezz are Skalds and Healers in Mid. Why should a Rogue be on equal footing ABS wise? Or even better than them when you add in all the rest of the Rogue abilities AND abilities from other classes (charming pets)?

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:32 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:29 PM
Ask any Melee DPS class player how long it takes them to take out a chain/scale wearing class (healers etc) vs studded/reinforced (bards) leather or cloth (casters).

On my SB, the only way I've lost to a minstrel is if they 40-sec mezz song me and run away. I suppose if they have a high level pet they could win too, but those guys are typically in a duo with another minst or just in a fg.

Their damage output isn't able to keep up with any of the other stealthers.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:50 PM by Quik

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:29 PM
Ask any Melee DPS class player how long it takes them to take out a chain/scale wearing class (healers etc) vs studded/reinforced (bards) leather or cloth (casters).

On my SB, the only way I've lost to a minstrel is if they 40-sec mezz song me and run away. I suppose if they have a high level pet they could win too, but those guys are typically in a duo with another minst or just in a fg.

Their damage output isn't able to keep up with any of the other stealthers.

This.

I have no issues with Minstrels in chain or care about climb walls. I don't even have an issue with them being able to stealth and mez.

My issue is just the OP pets they can have and the unfair havoc it can cause.

Any decent stealthier that can catch a Minstrel solo without a red/grape pet is probably going to win or come very close. That is how it should be.

The issue I have is the fact that a Minstrel with a Purple pet (yes they fixed this which is great) or even to a lesser degree, a red pet, being able to beat a lot of small mans solo. Not all but a LOT.

Now add all that together...Stealth, Chain, Mezzing, 2 low power insta nukes for interrupt, AND HIGHEST LEVEL PET IN THE GAME. How do people not see that as overdone? Wait until the pet abilities are fixed and it will be even worse.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:07 PM by Cadebrennus

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:32 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 5:29 PM
Ask any Melee DPS class player how long it takes them to take out a chain/scale wearing class (healers etc) vs studded/reinforced (bards) leather or cloth (casters).

On my SB, the only way I've lost to a minstrel is if they 40-sec mezz song me and run away. I suppose if they have a high level pet they could win too, but those guys are typically in a duo with another minst or just in a fg.

Their damage output isn't able to keep up with any of the other stealthers.

Their base style lines (Thrust/Slash) are the exact style lines and damage output of other stealthers on Alb. The other realms base style lines are likewise equivalent. The advanced style lines in each realm isn't much different (Spear, Dual Wield, Celtic Dual). Assassins pull away damage-wise with CS and poisons, but don't forget that Minstrels have their timered shouts to boost DPS, and we haven't even gotten into a discussion of nuking/melee pets to further add to DPS. Honestly, the Minstrel is the very last class I would like to face solo in open RvR due to their damage output coupled with their excellent ABS from chainmail (which reduces melee damage significantly) and control tools.

Their damage output is just fine or surpasses the other stealthers no problem, yet they also have better defense. Before anyone talks about Evade, don't forget that Evade is affected by the number of attackers whereas armor is not. This is why I prefer playing a Merc as opposed to a Zerk or BM. The ability to handle multiple attackers is so much easier in heavier armor.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:10 PM by Kaziera

except that all other stealthers are on a different weapons table than minstrel. same name of the weapon spec does NOT mean same dmg.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:34 PM by heardstheword

Kaziera wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:10 PM
except that all other stealthers are on a different weapons table than minstrel. same name of the weapon spec does NOT mean same dmg.

And to add, they don't have enough spec points to really go all Instruments/stealth/Slash.

Technically they can go 50Instru/43weapon, but that removes climb walls/safe fall/stealth/etc. Even with that high of weapon, they won't compete with any stealther's damage output. Plus I'll land my perf, since they'll never see me coming.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:36 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:07 PM
Their damage output is just fine or surpasses the other stealthers no problem

I'm sorry, but I have not seen that to be the case any time I've faced a minstrel. To say 'surpasses no problem' is an extreme hyperbole.

Unless they have absolute perfect luck on my evade chains and a high level pet, I just don't see it happening. My only fear of a minstrel is being stuck for 40 seconds as they run away with the potential of someone else coming to kill me.

Equal RR assassin vs minstrel will win majority of the time.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:45 PM by Quik

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:36 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 6:07 PM
Their damage output is just fine or surpasses the other stealthers no problem

I'm sorry, but I have not seen that to be the case any time I've faced a minstrel. To say 'surpasses no problem' is an extreme hyperbole.

Unless they have absolute perfect luck on my evade chains and a high level pet, I just don't see it happening. My only fear of a minstrel is being stuck for 40 seconds as they run away with the potential of someone else coming to kill me.

Equal RR assassin vs minstrel will win majority of the time.

This is true unless Minstrel has high red or purple pet.

In a straight 1v1 with no pet min should lose almost every time

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM by Cadebrennus

Weaponskill testing from 2003;
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/interesting-weaponskill-table-information.143164/

"Here's the weaponskill retested for all classes results..

------------------------
Tested these myself. Here are the results for Level 30s with 30 Weaponspec where applicable:

Hibernia:
Hero (Celt) (1 Hand): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Blademaster (Celt): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Valewalker (Celt): 85 STR, 389 Weaponskill
Champion (Celt): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Warden (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Ranger (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Midgard:
Warrior (Dwarf): 85 STR, 418 Weaponskill
Berserker (Dwarf): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Savage (Dwarf) (Regular): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Skald (Dwarf): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Hunter (Dwarf) (Sword): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Shadowblade (Norse): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Thane (Dwarf): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Albion:
Armsman (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Mercenary (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Reaver (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Paladin (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Friar (Briton): 85 Dex, (Staff) 345 Weaponskill
Infiltrator (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Minstrel (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Scout (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill"

Tiers:

Tier 1 Warrior
Tier 2 Berserker, Armsman, Mercenary, Hero, Blademaster
Tier 3 Savage, Reaver, Valewalker
Tier 4 Skald, Valkyrie, Champion
Tier 5 Shadowblade, Hunter, Infiltrator, Scout, Minstrel, Nightshade, Ranger, Vampiir
Tier 6 Friar
Tier 7 Thane, Shaman, Healer, Heretic, Warden, Bard
Tier 8 Cleric, Druid
Tier 9 all casters

Source:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/damage-tables.250233200/

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:44 PM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
...

But this doesn't take into account poisons + dual wielding + high growth from critical strike styles

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:50 PM by phixion

Minstrels do nowhere near the same amount of damage as a real assassin or an archer at range.

I've never seen a problem with them getting chain armour, I think your proposals are a bit too drastic for most to swallow.

In my eyes, the only thing that needs fixing on Minstrels is the spammable charm and the max level you can charm.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:58 PM by Niix

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
Weaponskill testing from 2003;
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/interesting-weaponskill-table-information.143164/

"Here's the weaponskill retested for all classes results..

------------------------
Tested these myself. Here are the results for Level 30s with 30 Weaponspec where applicable:

Hibernia:
Hero (Celt) (1 Hand): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Blademaster (Celt): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Valewalker (Celt): 85 STR, 389 Weaponskill
Champion (Celt): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Warden (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Ranger (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Midgard:
Warrior (Dwarf): 85 STR, 418 Weaponskill
Berserker (Dwarf): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Savage (Dwarf) (Regular): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Skald (Dwarf): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Hunter (Dwarf) (Sword): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Shadowblade (Norse): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Thane (Dwarf): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Albion:
Armsman (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Mercenary (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Reaver (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Paladin (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Friar (Briton): 85 Dex, (Staff) 345 Weaponskill
Infiltrator (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Minstrel (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Scout (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill"

Tiers:

Tier 1 Warrior
Tier 2 Berserker, Armsman, Mercenary, Hero, Blademaster
Tier 3 Savage, Reaver, Valewalker
Tier 4 Skald, Valkyrie, Champion
Tier 5 Shadowblade, Hunter, Infiltrator, Scout, Minstrel, Nightshade, Ranger, Vampiir
Tier 6 Friar
Tier 7 Thane, Shaman, Healer, Heretic, Warden, Bard
Tier 8 Cleric, Druid
Tier 9 all casters

Source:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/damage-tables.250233200/

Friar looks to be in Tier 3, also few class missing from their respective tiers. More just curious if friar was a typo or not?

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:03 PM by Cadebrennus

Niix wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:58 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
Weaponskill testing from 2003;
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/interesting-weaponskill-table-information.143164/

"Here's the weaponskill retested for all classes results..

------------------------
Tested these myself. Here are the results for Level 30s with 30 Weaponspec where applicable:

Hibernia:
Hero (Celt) (1 Hand): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Blademaster (Celt): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Valewalker (Celt): 85 STR, 389 Weaponskill
Champion (Celt): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Warden (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Ranger (Celt): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Midgard:
Warrior (Dwarf): 85 STR, 418 Weaponskill
Berserker (Dwarf): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Savage (Dwarf) (Regular): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Skald (Dwarf): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Hunter (Dwarf) (Sword): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Shadowblade (Norse): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Thane (Dwarf): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill

Albion:
Armsman (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Mercenary (Briton): 85 STR, 400 Weaponskill
Reaver (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Paladin (Briton): 85 STR, 345 Weaponskill
Friar (Briton): 85 Dex, (Staff) 345 Weaponskill
Infiltrator (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Minstrel (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill
Scout (Briton): 85 STR, 327 Weaponskill"

Tiers:

Tier 1 Warrior
Tier 2 Berserker, Armsman, Mercenary, Hero, Blademaster
Tier 3 Savage, Reaver, Valewalker
Tier 4 Skald, Valkyrie, Champion
Tier 5 Shadowblade, Hunter, Infiltrator, Scout, Minstrel, Nightshade, Ranger, Vampiir
Tier 6 Friar
Tier 7 Thane, Shaman, Healer, Heretic, Warden, Bard
Tier 8 Cleric, Druid
Tier 9 all casters

Source:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/damage-tables.250233200/

Friar looks to be in Tier 3, also few class missing from their respective tiers. More just curious if friar was a typo or not?

I think the second chart is a little off but it's a good rule of thumb sort of list. Minstrels are conspicuously absent from the second list lol

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:05 PM by Cadebrennus

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:44 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
...

But this doesn't take into account poisons + dual wielding + high growth from critical strike styles

If you read my earlier posts in this thread I did mention that stuff

Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:07 PM by Cadebrennus

phixion wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:50 PM
Minstrels do nowhere near the same amount of damage as a real assassin or an archer at range.

I've never seen a problem with them getting chain armour, I think your proposals are a bit too drastic for most to swallow.

In my eyes, the only thing that needs fixing on Minstrels is the spammable charm and the max level you can charm.

I think there's a big difference between drastic and different. Minstrels have had chain armor for so long it's way too different than the norm. However taking it down to leather would put them on a more balanced level with both solo and group play.

Thu 30 Aug 2018 9:36 PM by phixion

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:07 PM
I think there's a big difference between drastic and different. Minstrels have had chain armor for so long it's way too different than the norm. However taking it down to leather would put them on a more balanced level with both solo and group play.

I don't think it would though, they would be way too squishy. I don't believe they are OP because they wear chain, I think they are OP because they can charm a purple pet and it's possible to spam charm.

Fri 31 Aug 2018 3:26 AM by heardstheword

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 8:05 PM
heardstheword wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:44 PM
Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
...

But this doesn't take into account poisons + dual wielding + high growth from critical strike styles

If you read my earlier posts in this thread I did mention that stuff

But that one didn't They may be on the same damage table, but that doesn't mean they have equal dps output.

Sat 1 Sep 2018 1:11 PM by ecopli

Hi, i'm Minstrel "Monsterpet";

Why staff trying to nerfing minstrel again with 3 spell every 1 sec ? i can take again a purple pet 90% resist with no problems;
i just disabled the tchat i can't write anything with this update.

Please GM if you read this topic; Unbug the class before trying to nerf !!!
All icon is bugged on minstrel;
pet speed bug all the time and pet take 2min for having speed again after fight;

just create on minstrel and trying to rvr in group.

Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:17 AM by SandyFox

What? Where's the complaint about climb walls coming from?

And someone who drags out old weaponskill tables and such really ought to know that you can't really discuss armor types without also mentioning evade. Thinking back to playing my Minny on live back in the day I think I would have been glad to trade in Chain + Evade II for Leather + Evade VII as I generally didn't have too much worry about getting hit from behind. Be careful what you wish for.

No, Leather + Evade II wouldn't be an option, as that would leave them ridiculously vulnerable. You might as well take away the weapon specs at that point too and make them a caster, not that any of this is going to happen anyway.

Mon 3 Sep 2018 5:52 PM by Dis

Try to play a minstrel in a 8man group well, try to manage all the stuff besides the perma resist on pet and then talk again about your 1on1 Situations.

- Minstrels can charm only "red" pets max with high resist rate -> OK
BUT the higher RR the minstrel are, the lower should be the resist rate, thats just what a minstrel is and were ALL the time.

- Lower the armor Type of a class? -> NOT OK
Guys please, try to deal with it, ALL realms have to deal with something stupid, but thats the game as it is.

nerfing a class into the ground with charm, armor, maybe dmg, RA´s, whats next? making a class not playable in 8vs8 anymore or speedbot?

BM´s, BD´s(Pet), etc etc imba and strong...do you see a thread every week about it?

its not about 1on1, its about groupplay. nerving a class to make it "balanced" in 1on1 situations doesnt make things better in group play.
think about it in that way please and stop this already.

Tue 4 Sep 2018 8:19 PM by Senti

Please stop telling bullshit about the minstrel, but frankly when I read removing armor chain against leather or studded you're still normal?
This is a class that is a bit well balanced, and because Hib or Mid can not kill minstrel as easily as a child, then you're bored? in these cases do we nerve the bard with are instant mezz? the mage hib with the stun? etc., etc ....

And morality we go back to anything after version 1.65 which was the most balanced of all updates! and finish like the official?

No, we want the class 1.65 spirit with small modified potion style in barrel or timer + long, and the fast xp is all that people want for most!

Do not touch the character anymore it's an immense stupidity to get into this unhealthy gear!

Thank you !

Sat 8 Sep 2018 6:28 AM by jelzinga_EU

Cadebrennus wrote: ↑
Thu 30 Aug 2018 7:19 PM
Weaponskill testing from 2003;
https://forums.freddyshouse.com/threads/interesting-weaponskill-table-information.143164/

"Here's the weaponskill retested for all classes results..
---

You are probably right they on the same damage-table WS-wise. However, what you conveniently forget is that minstrels realistically do not have the spec-points to be competitive in all lines.

Assuming you want to charm high level pets you need 50 Instruments. You're talking about climb-walls and stealthing, lets assume 25 Stealth (which is very poor Stealth when comparing other stealthers). That leaves 34 in Weapon.

34 Weapon doesn't sound too bad, I hear you think. And at first glance, you might be right. But then you're forgetting that all enemy assassins and rangers are dualwielding or have a 2H equipped. 25 Stealth means you're being seen at 1000+ range (by visibles and archers, even more by assassins) so you never get the jump on another stealther unless he's not stealthed. He will be fighting you with better melee-skills and possibly dualwield and poisons.

If you want to be somewhat convincing as a "stealther-minstrel" you probably go something like 50 Instruments, 29 Slash, 33 Stealth. Your stealth is slightly better (might even get 50 modded stealth at RR7) but you don't have the 35 MoS - and you do sub-100 damage with a 4.0 speed weapon to anything in a stealth-fight. The damage just isn't there, which is fine because minstrels get other abilities to compensate.

What you seem to forget is that listing a minstrel his abilities isn't really realistic: A minstrel can charm a (red-con) pet, maybe. But he isn't stealthing with it and he's not gonna find you if you don't want him to. You do not need to fight a minstrel with a red-con pet if you're stealthed. It is gonna be a problem when he adds when you're fighting, but not a bigger problem than an infiltrator, scout, shadowblade or hunter adding on your fights.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 4:55 AM by Cadebrennus

You guys are definitely failing to see the forest for the trees.

Limiting Minstrels to leather armor as a support class balances out their myriad of support tools (and speccable weapon) to the speed at which they can be taken down by melee.

Limiting Minstrels to leather armor as a stealther class puts them on par with 3 other stealth classes (all of which also have climb walls) while maintaining their balance as a stealth class. The other stealth classes have studded/reinforced and do not have climb walls, nor do any of the six other stealther classes even have a fraction of Minstrels utility, not to mention chainmail armor.

Limiting Minstrels to leather armor as a solo class still puts them above other pet classes (firstly, they still have a much higher con pet than the other classes) while still maintaining their solo utility and speccable weapon, which the other pet classes (not counting Hunter) do not have.

Seriously guys, look at the bigger picture when it comes to balance.

Sun 9 Sep 2018 7:31 AM by Ceen

Sure lets play another game with daoc graphics so some forum heros get their balance