Suggestion: Make Keep Fights Great Again

Suggestion: Make Keep Fights Great Again

Now, I've ran with the BG's countless times. Something I have always had a personal issue with was the ease at which a keep could be taken. Anyone can lead a battlegroup which is attacking a keep, because the tactic is generally always the same. Show up with 80 surfers, knock out the enemies capability to port by taking a tower, and then proceed to take a keep in 15 minutes unopposed. This is called PVE, and should be shunned in the frontiers.

These BG's will also spam 3-4 rams, 5-6 ballistas, and innumerable other cheese which makes the keep die instantly. The zerg will be on the keep boss before anyone has a chance at arriving.

Suggestion 1: Change the port system to keeps. If a keep is under attack and has 1 of its towers remaining, the defending realm can port to the keep to have a chance at defending. This by itself fosters giant battles, provides small mans, solos, and 8-mans the ability to have keep-centric immediate, unbridled action. It also creates a scenario where actual tactics need to be employed. The zerg would need to split their force into three groups, or two, depending on how many towers are present. It allows the realm being attacked to look at the RW map and go "ohhhh no, they are going for the keep, COME DEFEND!"

Suggestion 2: Limit the number of rams in x unit area to 1 or 2. Also limit the number of ballistics. A siege should be just that... a siege. Let's make keep fights great again by removing this kind of cheese. OR, if Suggestion 1 is implemented... they could hold off on Suggestion 2 (monitor it) as having defenders port in may actually be enough to thwart the abuse of rams and ballistas.

I want all you zerg surfers to think about how cool zerg vs. zerg battles could be on an actual keep, on the regular. It allows every class to utilize their best gifts. Stealthers can pick off underlings, small mans can circle about and kill. 8-mans can challenge zerg flanks, it's all around awesomeness.

I'd just really like to see the game go back to its slower pace, where defense is actually fun, and rewarding. With how quick keeps are taken, I mean frankly, its no wonder entire realms turn one color so quickly over night.... and that's because nobody can even show up to defend. Even if 10 people port in with the 1 tower rule, that is SOME challenge to the zerg force.

THINK ABOUT IT.

Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:46 AM by ExcretusMaximus

jlxscholar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:25 AM
The heck does a tower have to do in reality with whether you can port to a keep???

You're talking about reality and teleportation as if they are not mutually exclusive.

Fri 24 Jul 2020 5:55 AM by Valaraukar

jlxscholar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:25 AM
I've ran with the BG countless times, and something I've always had a strict issue with was the ease at which a keep could be taken.

Issue 1: A force of 80 shows up at a keep. They have the keep within 10-15 minutes. Doors busted, lord killed. It's too easy. There is no counter unless someone is cross realming and tells somebody.

Issue 2: A counter-force doesn't even get a chance to show up the majority of the time as towers are cut-off, and port instantly lost. The heck does a tower have to do in reality with whether you can port to a keep???

Solution: You don't need to change any long list of things - but change the way porting into a keep works.

If a keep has 3 towers for example, as long as ONE tower remains, we should be able to port there. This gives people the ability to use map awareness. If all 3 towers are lost, you lose the ability to port. Seems fair to me.

What benefit is there to taking a keep instantly? Where is the fun battle? The stealther games? The caster positioning? The 8-man positioning?

Gates needs to be stronger. Doors need to be stronger. Lord needs to be harder to reach. 80 people shouldn't equate to an instant "i-win" ...

Being able to have MULTIPLE RAMS on a gate doesn't help either.

It should be a situation where the defending realm has a chance to actually defend.

My 2 cents, I hope folks will agree.

You are partially right, but consider also the other situation: if the keep is defended it will become unconquerable. If the teleport stays open with only 1 tower all you need to do is to defend with 20ppl inside and get 1 or 2 groups taking towers (the distant ones to avoid the siege army) and the keep will be full of defenders in no time.
Maybe the use of catapults should be tuned down a bit, there are often 10 or more catas firing and it is a nightmare

Fri 24 Jul 2020 5:57 AM by Khrin

Defenders already have endless advantages once they're dug in, and you just want a system to make porting to keeo defences for easy RPs even more accessable?
Grotesque.

Fri 24 Jul 2020 6:03 AM by pollojack

I would suggest doubling inner door health and halving outer door health. If a response is to come it should be able to cata from the outside forcing a back and forth over oil or at the very least push on archer guard respawn.

The tower system is brilliant, a tower being taken signals the keep will be under attack. Yes, the attack can be much later but the keep must not have been that important or your leader felt it couldn't be held anyway if no attempt was made to reopen port.

Fri 24 Jul 2020 7:07 PM by jlxscholar

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:46 AM
jlxscholar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:25 AM
The heck does a tower have to do in reality with whether you can port to a keep???

You're talking about reality and teleportation as if they are not mutually exclusive.

I re-wrote it, I was tired and it was late, shh

Fri 24 Jul 2020 7:09 PM by jlxscholar

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 5:55 AM
jlxscholar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:25 AM
I've ran with the BG countless times, and something I've always had a strict issue with was the ease at which a keep could be taken.

Issue 1: A force of 80 shows up at a keep. They have the keep within 10-15 minutes. Doors busted, lord killed. It's too easy. There is no counter unless someone is cross realming and tells somebody.

Issue 2: A counter-force doesn't even get a chance to show up the majority of the time as towers are cut-off, and port instantly lost. The heck does a tower have to do in reality with whether you can port to a keep???

Solution: You don't need to change any long list of things - but change the way porting into a keep works.

If a keep has 3 towers for example, as long as ONE tower remains, we should be able to port there. This gives people the ability to use map awareness. If all 3 towers are lost, you lose the ability to port. Seems fair to me.

What benefit is there to taking a keep instantly? Where is the fun battle? The stealther games? The caster positioning? The 8-man positioning?

Gates needs to be stronger. Doors need to be stronger. Lord needs to be harder to reach. 80 people shouldn't equate to an instant "i-win" ...

Being able to have MULTIPLE RAMS on a gate doesn't help either.

It should be a situation where the defending realm has a chance to actually defend.

My 2 cents, I hope folks will agree.

You are partially right, but consider also the other situation: if the keep is defended it will become unconquerable. If the teleport stays open with only 1 tower all you need to do is to defend with 20ppl inside and get 1 or 2 groups taking towers (the distant ones to avoid the siege army) and the keep will be full of defenders in no time.
Maybe the use of catapults should be tuned down a bit, there are often 10 or more catas firing and it is a nightmare

Yes, the tide will certainly be in the benefit of defenders, as it should be. But don't forget, there is more to this game than rams and ballistas. Nobody uses trebuchets anymore, but if this change was to happen, sometimes the smartest tactic would be to blow a hole from range and take the courtyard by force. This would also protect the zerg or attacking force by providing them with walls. It creates 3 battlefields for content, the outside of keep and tower area, inside walls of keep, and interior keep. Honestly it sounds so fun I wish it would happen today. Imagine attacking a keep under these circumstances, and actually winning. I remember back in the day some keep fights lasting hours and it was truly what I think most folks loved about the game... was a slower pace... but a stronger rhythm.

Sat 25 Jul 2020 1:17 AM by LolaEbola

Damn, I miss trebuchets lining the coast. You sold me on that one. I’m for this.

Mon 27 Jul 2020 6:20 AM by Sepplord

would require functional hole-blowing though before that can happen

not sure if that is still worked on or shelved because of all the other technical problems it brings

Mon 27 Jul 2020 7:08 AM by inoeth

remove rp for keep taking, make it alot harder to take a keep and do actual rvr. problem solved

Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:52 PM by gotwqqd

inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 7:08 AM
remove rp for keep taking, make it alot harder to take a keep and do actual rvr. problem solved

What is “actual RvR”?

I think the intention/design of the game was primarily to have these larger battles at keeps/castles.

Mon 27 Jul 2020 1:22 PM by inoeth

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:52 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 7:08 AM
remove rp for keep taking, make it alot harder to take a keep and do actual rvr. problem solved
What is “actual RvR”?

I think the intention/design of the game was primarily to have these larger battles at keeps/castles.

open field zerg fights, if you are a zerg person and not pvdoors

Thu 30 Jul 2020 8:04 PM by jlxscholar

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 12:52 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Mon 27 Jul 2020 7:08 AM
remove rp for keep taking, make it alot harder to take a keep and do actual rvr. problem solved
What is “actual RvR”?

I think the intention/design of the game was primarily to have these larger battles at keeps/castles.

I agree! The keeps are the central point. I think somewhere... in design... and tweaks... they just got too easy to take. There is no counter currently.

Thu 30 Jul 2020 8:26 PM by Gildar

Valaraukar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 5:55 AM
jlxscholar wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Jul 2020 4:25 AM
I've ran with the BG countless times, and something I've always had a strict issue with was the ease at which a keep could be taken.

Issue 1: A force of 80 shows up at a keep. They have the keep within 10-15 minutes. Doors busted, lord killed. It's too easy. There is no counter unless someone is cross realming and tells somebody.

Issue 2: A counter-force doesn't even get a chance to show up the majority of the time as towers are cut-off, and port instantly lost. The heck does a tower have to do in reality with whether you can port to a keep???

Solution: You don't need to change any long list of things - but change the way porting into a keep works.

If a keep has 3 towers for example, as long as ONE tower remains, we should be able to port there. This gives people the ability to use map awareness. If all 3 towers are lost, you lose the ability to port. Seems fair to me.

What benefit is there to taking a keep instantly? Where is the fun battle? The stealther games? The caster positioning? The 8-man positioning?

Gates needs to be stronger. Doors need to be stronger. Lord needs to be harder to reach. 80 people shouldn't equate to an instant "i-win" ...

Being able to have MULTIPLE RAMS on a gate doesn't help either.

It should be a situation where the defending realm has a chance to actually defend.

My 2 cents, I hope folks will agree.

You are partially right, but consider also the other situation: if the keep is defended it will become unconquerable. If the teleport stays open with only 1 tower all you need to do is to defend with 20ppl inside and get 1 or 2 groups taking towers (the distant ones to avoid the siege army) and the keep will be full of defenders in no time.
Maybe the use of catapults should be tuned down a bit, there are often 10 or more catas firing and it is a nightmare

Agree 100 %

Good point.

Reduce number of catas can be used by attackers AND defenders.

Thu 30 Jul 2020 8:30 PM by kedelin

Allow holes and siege towers... make towers be destroyable... lessen the dmg siege does to players like oil... lessen oil dmg but also make it like live where it can't. Be killed..

Thu 30 Jul 2020 9:34 PM by Helwyr

Suggestion 2 is reasonable, but not Suggestion 1, that would make defending way too easy. It's also not like you can't make it to a keep defense after the port is cut , and if you limited the number of rams on keep doors as you suggested that would give people more time to get to the keep. You didn't mention changes that I think a lot would agree would make keep and tower fights better... Remove /ground assist from the game and stop pets from being able to pass through walls and closed doors.

Thu 30 Jul 2020 9:45 PM by Lokkjim

I agree with making walls destructible, I think we should also nerf volley, catas, and aoe in some way. Currently, it feels like there is way too much aoe damage going around, people can't stand on the ramparts to defend because an area is constantly being attacked by volley, catas, or aoes. So whoever has more aoe is able to push. There's no strategy beyond ground battles. It's either push out or wait for them to push in. You can't gain a foothold without committing, it's all or nothing, and more often than not, people will wait until they have no other choice.