[Suggestion] Even out the template cost's between caster and melees

It's kinda sad and most certainly unfair that melee templates are much, much, much...much more expensive than caster templates. Phoenix heavily favors caster already and the high costs for a comparable melee template makes it even more less achievable/ attractive to play a melee in rvr, but at least it makes it way harder to get a melee toon rvr ready - unless you have a sugar daddy guild or a lot of time to farm all the coin you need.

Suggestion: Reduce the price of the melee feather items and buff them stat wise to a point where you can build a temp with 40-70 rogs like it is already easily possible with a caster temp.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 8:53 PM by watbrif

I completely agree. I know that you need to have goldsinks etc. and of course provide opportunities for crafters to exercise their trade, but I can't think of a gameplay reason why a Champ template should be that much more expensive than a caster template? I mean, hybrids don't gain any advantage by covering more stats and attributes etc....

Sat 30 Jan 2021 9:33 PM by Ele

After reading over your suggestion I got curious and looked over my melee templates. Only my hero and skald use some rogs with 80+ utility, zerker, warrior, vw, paly and arms use stuff with a utility of 50-70. Sure, the templates are way more expensive than my caster templates, but mainly due to the availability of good weapons via feathers and the higher cost of the armor parts.
Another thing I realized when I looked over the rogs is how their utility is distributed. Hybrids and most melees don't profit much from +all skills, shield and parry (Edit: utility-wise on rogs, as they are relatively easy to cap with +single skills while SCing, especially shield and parry). Avoid those (exception may be arms and hero, as those benefit from +all skills as they count double, towards 1h and 2h lines) and use rogs with mediocre stats/resists instead, and the cost for your template goes down by a lot.
Sidenote: The templates are weaponless (2h for arms/hero/paly, mainhand for zerker, 1h for skald/warrior) except for the vw, using the slowest feather scythe mirrored with fastest crafted.
I'm not going to argue that melee templates are more expensive than caster templates, but I don't regard it as a huge gap cost-wise (1x feathers+500g armor vs 2x feathers + 1,5-3p armor + a bit for rogs) and don't think it needs adjusting.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 10:45 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Ele wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 9:33 PM
Hybrids and most melees don't profit much from +all skills, shield and parry. Avoid those (exception may be arms and hero, as those benefit from +all skills as they count double, towards 1h and 2h lines) and use rogs with mediocre stats/resists instead, and the cost for your template goes down by a lot.

LOL

Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:05 PM by Ele

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 10:45 PM
Ele wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 9:33 PM
Hybrids and most melees don't profit much from +all skills, shield and parry. Avoid those (exception may be arms and hero, as those benefit from +all skills as they count double, towards 1h and 2h lines) and use rogs with mediocre stats/resists instead, and the cost for your template goes down by a lot.

LOL

Reread the passage, edited it to clarify what I meant.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:16 PM by CowwoC

watbrif wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 8:53 PM
I completely agree. I know that you need to have goldsinks etc. and of course provide opportunities for crafters to exercise their trade, but I can't think of a gameplay reason why a Champ template should be that much more expensive than a caster template? I mean, hybrids don't gain any advantage by covering more stats and attributes etc....

Yep, the gap between caster templates and melee templates is just silly huge and that's a reason - at least for many people i know - that we don't see that much melees in rvr, compared to caster.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:20 PM by poplik

I don't think the pure melee templates are particularly expensive, but there is definitely a huge discrepancy where hybrids and sneaks are orders of magnitude harder to template. For caster you don't even need rogs above 60 and MP armor and the cloth is dirt cheap anyway.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:40 PM by CowwoC

poplik wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:20 PM
I don't think the pure melee templates are particularly expensive, but there is definitely a huge discrepancy where hybrids and sneaks are orders of magnitude harder to template. For caster you don't even need rogs above 60 and MP armor and the cloth is dirt cheap anyway.

With melee templates i meant all from tank, light tanks, hybrids and sneaks.

Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:47 PM by gotwqqd

I’ve created max templates for all archetypes using mostly mid 50’s utility items and 99% gear
I think maybe on a few classes I needed some 60ish utility items and maybe mp hands and/or feet.
When searching for items on merchant look for lots of either 1% resist or 1 stat. This allows you to fill holes cheaply with gem crafting. Particularly stats.
Also get creative with weapons so you overlap stats and don’t need a weapon less template

Sun 31 Jan 2021 12:15 AM by CowwoC

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:47 PM
I’ve created max templates for all archetypes using mostly mid 50’s utility items and 99% gear
I think maybe on a few classes I needed some 60ish utility items and maybe mp hands and/or feet.
When searching for items on merchant look for lots of either 1% resist or 1 stat. This allows you to fill holes cheaply with gem crafting. Particularly stats.
Also get creative with weapons so you overlap stats and don’t need a weapon less template

Cheaply? The last time i checked stat bumping was pretty expensive. I really want to see that all capped temp on melees with 50/60 util rogs only. It's not about just any temp, it's about capping all, that includes weapon less and maybe even gear to swap in, since this is how you might have to play the class for their full potential, if needed. The suggestion is meant in comparison to what caster can do and with higher util they even can run naked and still cap everything - show me that on a melee temp please.

Sun 31 Jan 2021 4:17 PM by poplik

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Sat 30 Jan 2021 11:47 PM
I’ve created max templates for all archetypes using mostly mid 50’s utility items and 99% gear
I think maybe on a few classes I needed some 60ish utility items and maybe mp hands and/or feet.
When searching for items on merchant look for lots of either 1% resist or 1 stat. This allows you to fill holes cheaply with gem crafting. Particularly stats.
Also get creative with weapons so you overlap stats and don’t need a weapon less template

I would love to see capped assassin template with 50 or even 60 rogs and 99 armor

Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:50 PM by Nephamael

I think a good way to make it a bit cheaper would be reducing crafting cost of crafted armor in chain/plate and the equivalents in the other realms.

A good way to make it a bit easier would be adding 10ish single utility to feather items indeed (especially Galla chest/legs/arms).

Tue 9 Feb 2021 4:44 PM by CowwoC

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Sun 31 Jan 2021 10:50 PM
I think a good way to make it a bit cheaper would be reducing crafting cost of crafted armor in chain/plate and the equivalents in the other realms.

A good way to make it a bit easier would be adding 10ish single utility to feather items indeed (especially Galla chest/legs/arms).

The most expensive part are still the rogs tho, unless they implement feather jewelry which you actually can use to cap out a temp as melee. Making melee temps ~10 plats cheaper would be a start, but that's actually not what i suggest. I suggest equality and to close the ridiculous gap between caster and melee temps and even them out. I really can't see why a melee temp has to be much, much more expensive compared to a caster temp - on a caster server - unless devs want to keep the server caster dominated. Which i doubt, but then i would need an explanation why this is still overlooked by devs.

Sun 14 Feb 2021 4:09 AM by Elises

I'm doing a sc thane, it's just crazy how expensive it cost me, easily 30 platinum more expensive than any other sc I've done .....

Sun 14 Feb 2021 3:09 PM by Astaa

It's always been like that, not that it's a good thing, it just is. I can template a complete caster for the cost of the legs on my hero (not including vest), which is daft, but then casters are inherently favoured in the game. Easier to play, easier to template.

Sun 14 Feb 2021 3:14 PM by Blitze

Sidi Hybrid Chest pieces should have an extra 20 utility added.

Sun 14 Feb 2021 5:37 PM by Xenosapien

I think it would be as simple as changing all melee weapon lines to include: shield,parry,dual weield,ect

Fri 21 May 2021 2:39 PM by CowwoC

With the (maybe) upcomming style overhaul i think this topic is worth to bump.

It might help to shift from a caster heavy server to a more balanced one between caster and melees, if people have easier access to melee templates than they do now, so that melees actually become somewhat attractive to play in rvr. Melee templates do not have to be dirt cheap as caster templates(even though i don't know why it should not regarding rogs and feather items at least) but the price gap between both sides is still ludicrous high and there are plenty feather items which could be improved stat wise, since nobody uses them anyway - which means it does not have to be new drop loot with higher utility or existing loot with a higher drop rate to solve that problem. Alone this would help already and a crafter could still earn a coin or two, since the costs of crafted gear between cloth/ staves and everything else including weapons is still considerable.

If melees are currently doomed to sit bored in rams or are only good enough to chase rabbits, let's try not to even load their burden by giving them the huge grind and investment of gear to actually become that bored golden melee bot on top of that. Instead make them feel a bit more needed in rvr and not just pve.

Fri 21 May 2021 5:03 PM by Astaa

I am not sure making templates cheaper would make a lot of difference, stopping the endless caster boosting and improving tank life however would.

Fri 21 May 2021 6:18 PM by gotwqqd

Astaa wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 5:03 PM
I am not sure making templates cheaper would make a lot of difference, stopping the endless caster boosting and improving tank life however would.

Real charge

Fri 21 May 2021 7:20 PM by CowwoC

Astaa wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 5:03 PM
I am not sure making templates cheaper would make a lot of difference, stopping the endless caster boosting and improving tank life however would.

It would be a start. Just Imagine how people feel about facing a caster heavy server AND the hard access to gear melees up properly. Even if you wanted to play a melee in rvr, you have to invest way more time into farming to actually make that happen. The market is flooded with cheap rogs for caster but if you want to template your melee, you'll need high utility rogs to even think about maxing your temp equally like caster can do. That's nothing what ra's ever could compensate unless we are speaking about halving the caster damage or something similar, so that people don't have to care about a maxed out template.

Sat 22 May 2021 12:32 AM by Beeblebrox

Perhaps the answer is to increase the cost of caster templates to be more in line with the cost of melee templates. j/k

I make quite a few templates and don't like how hard tank/hybrid temps are.

Sun 23 May 2021 9:03 PM by Six

lets not forget that the majority of rogs that are available are farmed from caster groups because of course they do all the dps, been having a look at the markets lately and its not looking good, the gap has only gotten larger from a year ago when i played last. luckily i had most of the rogs i needed for melee/hybrids to fix their templates (because 3 piece weaponless its whats required now in most cases)

had i not had those rogs a few of the templates i did would have been well outside my reach (20plat per rog). mid right now has a great selection of high util rogs unlike hib and alb, if you can afford a 250plat template...

they might have to up the droprate/utility if they want the market to stay healthy. i see far too many 55utility rogs trying to sell for a plat or more and far too many 80utility rogs for 15p

Sun 23 May 2021 9:51 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Six wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 9:03 PM
(because 3 piece weaponless its whats required now in most cases)

No it's not. Choosing to have a perfect template is not required when all you're gaining is 3% proc rate on 2 pieces of ablative (the weaker of the two procs) gear.

Sun 23 May 2021 9:56 PM by Six

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 9:51 PM
Six wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 9:03 PM
(because 3 piece weaponless its whats required now in most cases)

No it's not. Choosing to have a perfect template is not required when all you're gaining is 3% proc rate on 2 pieces of ablative (the weaker of the two procs) gear.

yeah 6% totally meaningless, that must be why nobody really cares and 3piece and 1piece are equally valuable... have u ever played this game before? template is pass/fail my man, is it as good as they guy you are fighting? no? fail...

Tue 25 May 2021 4:53 PM by CowwoC

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 9:51 PM
Six wrote: ↑
Sun 23 May 2021 9:03 PM
(because 3 piece weaponless its whats required now in most cases)

No it's not. Choosing to have a perfect template is not required when all you're gaining is 3% proc rate on 2 pieces of ablative (the weaker of the two procs) gear.

If min-maxing your template isn't necessary how comes that most templates which are offered on the market exactly this - all cap? How comes every caster runs a all cap template? It's not because they have choice - obviously they have - it's about being competitive in this game. Why else would people reach for a higher realm rank? I'll tell you - because they gain a little advantage step by step, it's the same with templates. You either swim with the current or you drown eventually. The problem is that caster have easy access to a full cap template and melees don't.

Wed 26 May 2021 6:45 AM by Astaa

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 7:20 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 5:03 PM
I am not sure making templates cheaper would make a lot of difference, stopping the endless caster boosting and improving tank life however would.

It would be a start. Just Imagine how people feel about facing a caster heavy server AND the hard access to gear melees up properly. Even if you wanted to play a melee in rvr, you have to invest way more time into farming to actually make that happen. The market is flooded with cheap rogs for caster but if you want to template your melee, you'll need high utility rogs to even think about maxing your temp equally like caster can do. That's nothing what ra's ever could compensate unless we are speaking about halving the caster damage or something similar, so that people don't have to care about a maxed out template.

I know, I have made several tank templates, my hero template alone cost me well over 100p weaponless, 3x Epic, SI gloves, LT hat and boots. The challenge I set myself was 0 crafted items, 100% weaponless, it's not quite finished as I need to find some scale boots with 20qui on so using a crafted placeholder atm. I also understand that casters are the lowest entry for both cost and ability (not ability per se but accessibility) You don't need templates like that though, especially with the crafted (proc currently bought with feathers) LT weapons, many must have weapons share common stats, usually weapon and STR so can easily be copied. I just did a MH free BM template for around 15p+galla items.

Point taken about market ROGs though, I hadn't actually considered that, I self craft most of my template ROGs through gemcutting, which often evens out the cost as you get several to sell too, to go back to my hero template, I have 2 105+ utility items in it, I must have made around 100 rogs in total, kept some, sold some, salvaged most. Those that I did sell, sold very well.

I think that they should perhaps increase the chances of getting higher utility items via gemcutting to make it more appealing, or boost the level of ROGs that drop in general, I don't think I have ever got a ROG worth keeping from farming on my exp capped (lvl 51) animist pre drop changes.

Also, the point people are making about having 3 part epic being expensive, for the most part the stats are a decent spread and are a nice base for a template, and actually work out cheaper than MP scale/RF (Hib POV), there is no reason to not use them. People also need to learn to bin the SI necklace, it's terrible for tank templates because of the bad spread, 80 util is misleading when it means finding ROGs excluding the resists harder.

Fri 28 May 2021 7:12 PM by CowwoC

Astaa wrote: ↑
Wed 26 May 2021 6:45 AM
CowwoC wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 7:20 PM
Astaa wrote: ↑
Fri 21 May 2021 5:03 PM
I am not sure making templates cheaper would make a lot of difference, stopping the endless caster boosting and improving tank life however would.

It would be a start. Just Imagine how people feel about facing a caster heavy server AND the hard access to gear melees up properly. Even if you wanted to play a melee in rvr, you have to invest way more time into farming to actually make that happen. The market is flooded with cheap rogs for caster but if you want to template your melee, you'll need high utility rogs to even think about maxing your temp equally like caster can do. That's nothing what ra's ever could compensate unless we are speaking about halving the caster damage or something similar, so that people don't have to care about a maxed out template.

I know, I have made several tank templates, my hero template alone cost me well over 100p weaponless, 3x Epic, SI gloves, LT hat and boots. The challenge I set myself was 0 crafted items, 100% weaponless, it's not quite finished as I need to find some scale boots with 20qui on so using a crafted placeholder atm. I also understand that casters are the lowest entry for both cost and ability (not ability per se but accessibility) You don't need templates like that though, especially with the crafted (proc currently bought with feathers) LT weapons, many must have weapons share common stats, usually weapon and STR so can easily be copied. I just did a MH free BM template for around 15p+galla items.

Point taken about market ROGs though, I hadn't actually considered that, I self craft most of my template ROGs through gemcutting, which often evens out the cost as you get several to sell too, to go back to my hero template, I have 2 105+ utility items in it, I must have made around 100 rogs in total, kept some, sold some, salvaged most. Those that I did sell, sold very well.

I think that they should perhaps increase the chances of getting higher utility items via gemcutting to make it more appealing, or boost the level of ROGs that drop in general, I don't think I have ever got a ROG worth keeping from farming on my exp capped (lvl 51) animist pre drop changes.

Also, the point people are making about having 3 part epic being expensive, for the most part the stats are a decent spread and are a nice base for a template, and actually work out cheaper than MP scale/RF (Hib POV), there is no reason to not use them. People also need to learn to bin the SI necklace, it's terrible for tank templates because of the bad spread, 80 util is misleading when it means finding ROGs excluding the resists harder.

Your suggestion could a part of a solution if gem cutting in general becomes cheaper as well. Because right now if you want to boost stats on a ROG you quickly land on the same page as buying them from the drying and overpriced market plats wise. Increasing the general utility on ROGs also could be a solution to it, since all those crap 40s and 50s ROGs almost have no use in a melee template and caster almost never need higher ROGs than that or on max a few 60s to cap everything in their template. If higher utility drops become more regular the prices at the market probably also would drop after a while, so i do think its a possible way - but even if i miss here something, i'm sure it would not be an impossible task to even out the costs between caster and melee temps, just a thing of will of the devs. So if any dev could give some feedback, other than "no, not planned" would be great.

Cheers.

Fri 4 Jun 2021 8:45 PM by CowwoC

Sat 5 Jun 2021 1:09 AM by soremir

Xenosapien wrote: ↑
Sun 14 Feb 2021 5:37 PM
I think it would be as simple as changing all melee weapon lines to include: shield,parry,dual weield,ect

This is brilliant and intuitive.

Sat 5 Jun 2021 3:55 AM by ExcretusMaximus

soremir wrote: ↑
Sat 5 Jun 2021 1:09 AM
This is brilliant and intuitive.

But not simple, unless they were to leave old items as they are and just introduce a new skill category, lumping in all of those together on all new items. Otherwise you're going to get ridiculous things like +8 shield on a necklace with +3 All Melee and +5 Shield.

Mon 7 Jun 2021 3:50 PM by CowwoC

Introducing new Rogs is not even necessary. There lies a lot potential in existing feather items by simply increasing their stats. Even though the feather items are not balanced realm wise - which i addressed to a gm in discord already a few months back, but no change so far. You would assume that those items are more or less just mirrored and adapted to the realm stats wise, but that's not the case. There are also items which are only available for one realm but not for the others, which seems weird to me.

Anyway, tuning the feather items could already help to bring down the template costs for melees, if the prices of those items are adjusted as well. There is no point increasing the stats but also the feather price at the same time. If the Devs would want a more player based trade market, of course there has to be an increasement of high utility rogs somehow. Making more feather items attractive to use in a temp would maybe also increase the will to actually run more raids, other than for skins, stones or the typical handful epic/ dragon items. This might be off topic a little bit, but introducing a waiting lobby for the dungeons could be a thing - you know, like the group finder - but i also could imagine to make it more easy/ attractive so that pre-mades can look for fill ins or totally randoms for a spot in either pre-made or pug group ongoing or starting. Boom, more feathers on the market, more possibilities.

For a caster template you simply farm your rogs on a caster, Animist in Hib, Necro in Alb and Mid - well Mid is different unless you would compare a BD farm to Necro and Animist farm speed/ possibility. But it's not about the possibility to farm those rogs alone but also the accessibility. As Tank, Hybrid or Melee Sin you typical farm day is way more time intensive to reach your goal compared to a caster, to due the fact that Animists and Necros(and BD) have the possibility to farm solo or in group without a penalty. You simply can't compare that to melees. So you either need a farm toon or depending on a farm group going on when you play and who needs/ wants your class.

That suggestion would not cut melee template costs down too much, since you still would need crafted gear, which is also insane pricy compared to caster gear. Which somehow is okay, but somehow it has a bitter taste all together. I'm not suggestion to swap the caster love over to a melee love btw - just some balance adjustments.

Mon 7 Jun 2021 4:47 PM by omicidi

100% in favor making all feather items worth it. 95% of the feather items are for the memes and overlooked.

Sun 20 Jun 2021 9:52 PM by CowwoC

bump

Sat 10 Jul 2021 8:10 PM by CowwoC

B.U.M.P. - just in case Uthgard Gloves get removed soonish

Sun 11 Jul 2021 2:00 AM by Beeblebrox

Raising the cost of caster temps would even it out.