Stealth Difference between archers and assasins

I'm sure it's the same for all archers but I can only speak about my ranger. Years ago before TOA I had a RR8 ranger, one of his specs was 51 stealth and with that I could see others just long enough to get a shot off with my bow. Now with 52 I still don't see an assassin until it's to late and I rarely win when it's all melee. DAoC in the beginning said that 75% of an archers damage was with his bow, that the targets health should be way down by the time it got to you for melee. It works great in PvE but not at all on assassins in RvR simply be cause you can't detect them until they're on you. Some will say go all melee but once again, you'll be hit before you can do anything, and why not just roll a BM if that's the way you have to play.

I'd really like the devs to look at this again because it really puts archers at a big disadvantage. And I'd like to hear what the devs have to say, not the trolls.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:06 PM by Riac

Jabberwockie wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:02 PM
I'm sure it's the same for all archers but I can only speak about my ranger. Years ago before TOA I had a RR8 ranger, one of his specs was 51 stealth and with that I could see others just long enough to get a shot off with my bow. Now with 52 I still don't see an assassin until it's to late and I rarely win when it's all melee. DAoC in the beginning said that 75% of an archers damage was with his bow, that the targets health should be way down by the time it got to you for melee. It works great in PvE but not at all on assassins in RvR simply be cause you can't detect them until they're on you. Some will say go all melee but once again, you'll be hit before you can do anything, and why not just roll a BM if that's the way you have to play.

I'd really like the devs to look at this again because it really puts archers at a big disadvantage. And I'd like to hear what the devs have to say, not the trolls.

you need to go read the stealth changes, speccing 50 stealth isnt going to give you additional sight, its going to give you more move speed but thats all. also the mos bonuses they baked into stealth dont work off of composite, they only get credit for the points you actually spec into it. also melee blades is pretty strong vs my sb due to resist tables.

Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:28 PM by waffel

I think the devs have already spoken:
1.) before release they changed mastery of stealth, removed camo, and ensured that assassins see all other stealthers first
2.) nerfed bow damage
3.) after release they’ve buffed venom
4.) buffed duel wield damage swing chance (only helps rangers) which helps all assassins
5.) made sure NS ranged nukes (very imporant) were buffed, changed, changed again and finally fixed over many patches
6.) devoted nearly an entire patch to making sure vanish worked properly and worked out all bugs ensuring that every little assassin bug is worked out (very important and I’m glad all resources were devoted to this)
7.) Oh... and for archers they’re ‘looking at things’ but admit they have no ideas on what to do

So be careful what you ask for, or you’ll see a patch about how there was a ‘bug’ where assassins weren’t able to properly see archers at 250 units and it’s been patched.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM by

gruenesschaf

waffel wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:28 PM
I think the devs have already spoken:
1.) before release they changed mastery of stealth, removed camo, and ensured that assassins see all other stealthers first
2.) nerfed bow damage
3.) after release they’ve buffed venom
4.) buffed duel wield damage swing chance (only helps rangers) which helps all assassins
5.) made sure NS ranged nukes (very imporant) were buffed, changed, changed again and finally fixed over many patches
6.) devoted nearly an entire patch to making sure vanish worked properly and worked out all bugs ensuring that every little assassin bug is worked out (very important and I’m glad all resources were devoted to this)
7.) Oh... and for archers they’re ‘looking at things’ but admit they have no ideas on what to do

So be careful what you ask for, or you’ll see a patch about how there was a ‘bug’ where assassins weren’t able to properly see archers at 250 units and it’s been patched.

1) Removed see hidden which made camo obsolete hence the removal for that too and added different detection ranges between the 3 stealther types.
2) Bow damage as such wasn't changed at all, only all physical damage which also affected bow damage
3) Envenom was actually heavily nerfed by removing the tick on reapplication
4) Yep
5) You mean they were set to current live behavior as tested and over a couple patches adjusted aka nerfed closer to what it was? Great assassin buff
6) Yes, working on vanish / stealth bugs and fixing multiple while at it makes no sense and instead it should have been tested multiple times on different days to only fix a single issue per patch
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:31 AM by The Skies Asunder

One of the biggest issues I have had is just the detection range. If it was purely tied to your stealth spec, and equal between classes other than that, it would be a lot more bearable. Currently eating a perf every three minutes is not a whole lot of fun.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 2:56 AM by Sepphiroth75

For archery i would like a reason to spec 40-45-50. bow. Possibly make these pentrating arrow 1,2 & 3

Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:24 AM by AngelRose

Is there a reason sin's have better stealth detection?

And, yes, envenom was decreased but viper was increased...so /shrug

Basically, archers have none of the good from either NF or OF. There are some very good reasons hunters are the least played stealther in game. A couple of minor tweaks would go a long way to make them fun without making them OP.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 6:19 AM by Ceen

waffel wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:28 PM
I think the devs have already spoken:
1.) before release they changed mastery of stealth, removed camo, and ensured that assassins see all other stealthers first
2.) nerfed bow damage
3.) after release they’ve buffed venom
4.) buffed duel wield damage swing chance (only helps rangers) which helps all assassins
5.) made sure NS ranged nukes (very imporant) were buffed, changed, changed again and finally fixed over many patches
6.) devoted nearly an entire patch to making sure vanish worked properly and worked out all bugs ensuring that every little assassin bug is worked out (very important and I’m glad all resources were devoted to this)
7.) Oh... and for archers they’re ‘looking at things’ but admit they have no ideas on what to do

So be careful what you ask for, or you’ll see a patch about how there was a ‘bug’ where assassins weren’t able to properly see archers at 250 units and it’s been patched.

Wrong forum just go back to your flat earther youtube channels.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:05 AM by krumr

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

When you changed rvr tasks you informed the community beforehand and asked for opinions about teleport timers etc.
The same thing happened before you changed envenom.

Any reason why you are not doing the same with archers changes?

Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:24 AM by Sepplord

AngelRose wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 5:24 AM
And, yes, envenom was decreased but viper was increased...so /shrug

I have seen this misconception mentioned quite a few times so i want to elaborate a bit here:

The buff of viper barely offsets the nerf of Viper effectiveness itself, in no way does it change the nerf of the poison mechanic.

There are no absolute numbers for the poisonmechanic nerf, because the amount of dmg generated with extraticks heavily depended on playstyle but taking different reports and extremes into account it is not unreasonable to take a 50% nerf of poisondamage as example to show what the viper-buff actually did.

So let's say poison dmg was 100dmg before nerf, 50 afterwards.
Before change Viper1 increased that dmg by 5%: from 100 to 105 aka 5dmg extra
After change Viper1 increased the dmg by 10%: from 50dmg to 55 aka 5dmg extra

The Viperbuff happened to keep the overall effectiveness of DPS gained per Realmpoints spent. Nerfing the calculationbase of viper also nerfed viper and the viperbuff merely offset that.
The DPS loss of the poisonnerf itself is not offset by the viperbuff.

Disclaimer: Even if some might interpret this as whining, i am merely explaining. I support the poisonmechanic nerf and think it will overall lead to a better game. The patch was a huge nerf to all assassins though, and people believing it was zero-sum change because of the viperbuff is ridiculous

Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:42 AM by inoeth

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM
waffel wrote: ↑
Tue 12 Mar 2019 11:28 PM
I think the devs have already spoken:
1.) before release they changed mastery of stealth, removed camo, and ensured that assassins see all other stealthers first
2.) nerfed bow damage
3.) after release they’ve buffed venom
4.) buffed duel wield damage swing chance (only helps rangers) which helps all assassins
5.) made sure NS ranged nukes (very imporant) were buffed, changed, changed again and finally fixed over many patches
6.) devoted nearly an entire patch to making sure vanish worked properly and worked out all bugs ensuring that every little assassin bug is worked out (very important and I’m glad all resources were devoted to this)
7.) Oh... and for archers they’re ‘looking at things’ but admit they have no ideas on what to do

So be careful what you ask for, or you’ll see a patch about how there was a ‘bug’ where assassins weren’t able to properly see archers at 250 units and it’s been patched.

1) Removed see hidden which made camo obsolete hence the removal for that too and added different detection ranges between the 3 stealther types.
2) Bow damage as such wasn't changed at all, only all physical damage which also affected bow damage
3) Envenom was actually heavily nerfed by removing the tick on reapplication
4) Yep
5) You mean they were set to current live behavior as tested and over a couple patches adjusted aka nerfed closer to what it was? Great assassin buff
6) Yes, working on vanish / stealth bugs and fixing multiple while at it makes no sense and instead it should have been tested multiple times on different days to only fix a single issue per patch
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

you removed see hidden but increased detection range for assassins, how does this make camuflage obsolete? lol

Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:55 AM by Durgrim

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

You want to share these ideas with us?
At least with those, who actually play the archer?
Would it be clever to get the most active archers here in discord / separate forum area and start having fruitful discussion:
1. SitRep with Numbers & Figures
2. Staff shares their vision of the class with the board
3. Proposal of changes 1 by 1 with discussion about possible outcome w/
a) Impacts on PvE
b) Impacts on RvR

M

Wed 13 Mar 2019 9:42 AM by Sepplord

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:55 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

You want to share these ideas with us?
At least with those, who actually play the archer?
Would it be clever to get the most active archers here in discord / separate forum area and start having fruitful discussion:
1. SitRep with Numbers & Figures
2. Staff shares their vision of the class with the board
3. Proposal of changes 1 by 1 with discussion about possible outcome w/
a) Impacts on PvE
b) Impacts on RvR

While that sounds good on paper, i disagree that timeplayed or RR on an archer is a good indicator to gauge someones viability in balance discussion. There are plenty of examples in this forum of high-RR people making suggestions that completely disregard any interest/POV besides their own. Being very invested into the archer as mainclass might even bias some more.
Take the assassin-poison discussion and the nerf/change to poison application. A very polarizing change and not really any correlation between the single players opinion and their RR on their assassin.

Presenting an idea will make a portion of your audience attach themselves to that change emotionally (positively AND negatively) and even if it was just a short glimpse within the discussion, you will have unhappy people either way, implement it or not. I guess they do not want to create lots of small "teleporter-vote" situations where no matter what they do, they dissapoint players because they got attached to an idea that was just put onto the drawing board during brainstorming.

We all have our agendas, even if we try and stay neutral and look at all sides. The dev staff though has a pretty high probability of having the overall server-health as their top-priority

Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:16 PM by Milchschnidde

Simply add some skill after level 40+ into bow that allows for instsnt trippleshot with cooldown, something close to a shotgun shot, short duration based, effected by falcons eye per arrow, so its worth to skill that.. critical shot is nice at max range to initiate fight... but thats all...

Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:37 PM by Durgrim

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 9:42 AM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 7:55 AM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:04 AM
7) We have ideas but just unsure how good they would be

You want to share these ideas with us?
At least with those, who actually play the archer?
Would it be clever to get the most active archers here in discord / separate forum area and start having fruitful discussion:
1. SitRep with Numbers & Figures
2. Staff shares their vision of the class with the board
3. Proposal of changes 1 by 1 with discussion about possible outcome w/
a) Impacts on PvE
b) Impacts on RvR

While that sounds good on paper, i disagree that timeplayed or RR on an archer is a good indicator to gauge someones viability in balance discussion. There are plenty of examples in this forum of high-RR people making suggestions that completely disregard any interest/POV besides their own. Being very invested into the archer as mainclass might even bias some more.
Take the assassin-poison discussion and the nerf/change to poison application. A very polarizing change and not really any correlation between the single players opinion and their RR on their assassin.

Presenting an idea will make a portion of your audience attach themselves to that change emotionally (positively AND negatively) and even if it was just a short glimpse within the discussion, you will have unhappy people either way, implement it or not. I guess they do not want to create lots of small "teleporter-vote" situations where no matter what they do, they dissapoint players because they got attached to an idea that was just put onto the drawing board during brainstorming.

We all have our agendas, even if we try and stay neutral and look at all sides. The dev staff though has a pretty high probability of having the overall server-health as their top-priority

Actually, I was thinking of the most active archer players here in forums. They do show that they do care and want to participate/contribute. No RR (which is a solely effect of invested playtime...)

Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:51 PM by Sepplord

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:37 PM
Actually, I was thinking of the most active archer players here in forums. They do show that they do care and want to participate/contribute. No RR (which is a solely effect of invested playtime...)

I like most of your ideas and we are on the same page regularly, but it seems you misunderstood the core spirit of my argument in this case. You can switch out RR/timeplayed in my previous comment with forumactivity without invalidating the argument imo. Just because someone is active on the forum doesn't mean he isn't biased. I am not without bias myself, and i am quite active for example

Wed 13 Mar 2019 1:32 PM by florin

If archer stealth is the same as assassin, you might as well combine the classes cause you’ll see even more melee rangers running around with ip acting like stealth light tanks. Right now with the new poisons mechanics, if you don’t perf a ranger, your me going to have a tough fight - ie not winnable if all the toys are up. Really look at incentives to spec higher bow and less melee.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 2:58 PM by Durgrim

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:51 PM
Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 12:37 PM
Actually, I was thinking of the most active archer players here in forums. They do show that they do care and want to participate/contribute. No RR (which is a solely effect of invested playtime...)

I like most of your ideas and we are on the same page regularly, but it seems you misunderstood the core spirit of my argument in this case. You can switch out RR/timeplayed in my previous comment with forumactivity without invalidating the argument imo. Just because someone is active on the forum doesn't mean he isn't biased. I am not without bias myself, and i am quite active for example

Would you consider the staff just 'doing/implementing' as the better option then in order to prevent people being too involved emotionally?

Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:09 PM by Sepplord

Durgrim wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 2:58 PM
Would you consider the staff just 'doing/implementing' as the better option then in order to prevent people being too involved emotionally?

Hard to say, pointing out flaws/downsides is much easier than coming up with a suggestion that doesn't have downsides itself. Especially since i don't know the staff and their workload. So far they have done a pretty good job imo, even when i disagree with a change/choice i can see where they were coming from and that it isn't completely unreasonable/overboard...

I believe all of our feedbacks and ideas are good for them to have as ressource, as long as they critically think about the arguments without giving too much weight on the poster who made a comment (and it seems to me that that is the case). I guess when they get completely lost or need/want more opinions for a specific topic they will ask but ofcourse the HOT-topics will never require that as we create comment after comment in threads about stealthers/archers/hibamnesia/etc... they already get that feedback.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:36 PM by Jabberwockie

Without some changes players are going to quit archery classes. It gets very old really fast when you're perfed, stunned and stand there while poison kills you and you're being beat on, die and come back only for it to happen again. And there's not many solo targets, unless u kill greys, due to the zergs and the task system. Ranger was my favorite class for many years but the changes here have ruined any chances of an even play field. you can't even get an assassin to poison your weapons anymore! Pretty much removed everything.
AND unless you play an archer you can't know so all the trolls comments mean nothing except they don't want even play because they like being OP.
Has any Dev responded to this yet or does that happen here? If you do lock it because none of these comments mean a thing except yours.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 3:48 PM by Amp_Phetamine

I'm nearly 100% certain that it's been mentioned the staff is working on ways to make investing past 35 bow worth it. As to the stealth issue, who knows. They may tie a 'detect hidden' like feature at 50 bow along with increased bow damage/shots.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:00 PM by Dariussdars

I currently have a level 16 Hunter, and a level 15 Shadowblade. i do not want to level the Hunter, only to get eaten by every assasin out there simply because they will see me before I see them. So going to work on the Shadowblade until I get some news that archers will get some much needed changes.

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:14 PM by Bobbahunter

Make high bow spec usable in melee. I’m giving up melee weapons spec to go 50 bow. I should be a master with it and use it in melee. But still interruptible from range. Doesn’t make since in the real world but I haven’t been in a fight with spells and stealthers. . Hah

Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:17 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bobbahunter wrote: ↑
Wed 13 Mar 2019 4:14 PM
Make high bow spec usable in melee. I’m giving up melee weapons spec to go 50 bow. I should be a master with it and use it in melee. But still interruptible from range. Doesn’t make since in the real world but I haven’t been in a fight with spells and stealthers. . Hah

Nope