Smite Cleric - Phoenix Freeshard

Any reasons against making smite as viable as a cave sham and natty Druid? Both hib and mid groups love having those 2 but smite isn’t even a line talked about in well...any form of Phoenix. I think the new smite spell would help a ton, even if not 214.9 delve (which I don’t think is OP given what cave shams can do). The big problems is currently the smite is 1350 range and a decent chunk of power (31 I believe?) for minimal damage. Curious on thoughts

Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:26 PM by Sepplord

which groups want caveshammies? Afaik all want capbuffs first and foremost.

and could you elaborate on the "what shamans can do" part, because if you are hinting at AOE-dotting, then any decent group will absolutely hate that because it makes enemies un-CCable. the only other thing shamans do is desease, which is powerful, but is a utility, not DPS.

Not sure about nature-druids...but do they really spec high nature? Aren't those really healdruids with nature sidespecc for a bit root-utility? I doubt groups are picking up nature druids for their dmgshield and dot, so imporving on the clerics stun would be a more logical comparison if needed at all

Tue 4 Feb 2020 6:20 PM by Isavyr

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:26 PM
which groups want caveshammies? Afaik all want capbuffs first and foremost.

and could you elaborate on the "what shamans can do" part, because if you are hinting at AOE-dotting, then any decent group will absolutely hate that because it makes enemies un-CCable. the only other thing shamans do is desease, which is powerful, but is a utility, not DPS.

Not sure about nature-druids...but do they really spec high nature? Aren't those really healdruids with nature sidespecc for a bit root-utility? I doubt groups are picking up nature druids for their dmgshield and dot, so imporving on the clerics stun would be a more logical comparison if needed at all

All your points are correct--the enemies use control with the other characters. However, the game wasn't designed with perfect symmetry, or the friar wouldn't exist (it lacks any counterpart in the other realms). That being said, the Smite cleric is woefully bad, and everyone knows it. Hell, even the baseline is completely inconsistent with the rest of the DD damage in DAOC. The DD hits far too weakly, costs far too much, and has less range than anyone else. It just may not be popular with the devs to do anything about it.

Tue 4 Feb 2020 7:00 PM by watbrif

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 1:26 PM
which groups want caveshammies? Afaik all want capbuffs first and foremost.

and could you elaborate on the "what shamans can do" part, because if you are hinting at AOE-dotting, then any decent group will absolutely hate that because it makes enemies un-CCable. the only other thing shamans do is desease, which is powerful, but is a utility, not DPS.

Not sure about nature-druids...but do they really spec high nature? Aren't those really healdruids with nature sidespecc for a bit root-utility? I doubt groups are picking up nature druids for their dmgshield and dot, so imporving on the clerics stun would be a more logical comparison if needed at all

I think the point is not turning the Smite line into a mainstream alternative (because people expect buffs/heals first). I can't judge on Cave Shammies, but the Smite line is so bad it's not even an alternative for people who like to play something more extravagant.

Tue 4 Feb 2020 9:40 PM by Wolfir666

watbrif wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 7:00 PM
I think the point is not turning the Smite line into a mainstream alternative (because people expect buffs/heals first). I can't judge on Cave Shammies, but the Smite line is so bad it's not even an alternative for people who like to play something more extravagant.

In truth i really can understand the need to make smite at least a bit more interesting, and personally i also think that shamans are a bad example, as shamans are no main-healers, like clerics are. so in fact you should compare Clerics to druids and healers.

And there it still got a point:

Midgard and Hibernia group-setup would be 2 (!) main-healers, often with different side-specs..
-> Hib would be Buff/heal + Nature/heal. Ofc the nature/heal-druid usually will have more skill in healing,
-> Mid would be Aug/heal + Pac/heal. Again the healing-part usually will be higher specced than the other one, not fully sure if pacs go beyond 36 pac, as 40 heal seems to be way too useful to drop.
-> Alb... I mean, seriously, does a group really build up on a Smite/Heal-Cleric? Or will there not more likely be 2 Buff/Heal-Clerics be used?

And that's the thing.. Smite is not nearly as interesting as second line aside of healing as it is in the other two realms.

Tue 4 Feb 2020 11:16 PM by Isavyr

Wolfir666 wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Feb 2020 9:40 PM
And that's the thing.. Smite is not nearly as interesting as second line aside of healing as it is in the other two realms.

That's highly subjective. In my opinion, it's more interesting. Like in WOW, and later Overwatch, healers had the ability to deal damage. It can be very exciting to apply pressure/momentum for your group. It's just a different type of momentum than control.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 4:09 AM by geilxr

I think the point is not turning the Smite line into a mainstream alternative (because people expect buffs/heals first). I can't judge on Cave Shammies, but the Smite line is so bad it's not even an alternative for people who like to play something more extravagant.

This exactly. It's 100% a waste. Even making it 99% a waste would leave an open for the 1% psychopaths as myself

In truth i really can understand the need to make smite at least a bit more interesting, and personally i also think that shamans are a bad example, as shamans are no main-healers, like clerics are. so in fact you should compare Clerics to druids and healers.

I like this. You have a great point in even bringing up the healer class. It's a very very similar argument if you broaden the 'dps' term and replace it with 'offensive'. Healers can spec pac if they want to be aggressive. It allows them to play up and, of course the norm is 36 pac 40 mend, it still allows for offensive playstyle. Sadly, clerics aren't given any offensive spec opportunities. This leaves 2/2 mid supports, 2/3 hib supports, and 1/2 alb supports with ANY offensive capabilities.

And there it still got a point:

Midgard and Hibernia group-setup would be 2 (!) main-healers, often with different side-specs..
-> Hib would be Buff/heal + Nature/heal. Ofc the nature/heal-druid usually will have more skill in healing,
-> Mid would be Aug/heal + Pac/heal. Again the healing-part usually will be higher specced than the other one, not fully sure if pacs go beyond 36 pac, as 40 heal seems to be way too useful to drop.
-> Alb... I mean, seriously, does a group really build up on a Smite/Heal-Cleric? Or will there not more likely be 2 Buff/Heal-Clerics be used?

I love this. I love it because it proves my point very well. I think if you even make some minuscule changes then there's absolutely a possibility to see a 40rejuv 36smite cleric. Or of course other specs. If you make it even 99% useless down from 100% you'll, again, have the 1% make it work. Right now there's nothing to make it
work. These are just a few random ideas:

-> Range changes (1350 range is absolutely obnoxious and i think this is a must
-> What about scaling the range in the smite line to prevent clerics spamming lv5 smite spells with leftover points? The first specline smites being 1350 and them scaling up to 1650 (the range they settled with on live when they realized they over-nerfed smite. I'd settle for 1500 even)
-> What about 2 specline nukes? the long range nuke doing less damage (150~ delve??) whereas the short range doing the dps (Live balance team gave them 214.9 delves which sounds like a lot until you realize brain buff doesnt affect them and it's actually a decently balanced number... Just an idea)

-> Lower power cost on the smites. For reference, specline smite is 37 power whereas the singletarget offensive spells for druid/sham are 31 and the aoe spells for them are 32) Doubtful decreasing power to 31 would be game-breaking, but would be a nice toast to smite

-> On live they were balanced more by given an insta pbaoe snare. Even with awful delves and the obvious immunity it gives, It would be a good rupt tool given the opportunity

And that's the thing.. Smite is not nearly as interesting as second line aside of healing as it is in the other two realms.

I respect your opinion but out of RR11LX smiter, cave sham, and natty druid, my times with my smiter trumps all of my other daoc adventures in both groups and solo play.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:01 AM by teiloh

If the damage were increased significantly (235ish on a 3s cast) and power reduced significantly, the ranges could be justified. It could be more of a zone-control/deterrent type of damage rather than another nuker.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 6:22 AM by geilxr

teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:01 AM
If the damage were increased significantly (235ish on a 3s cast) and power reduced significantly, the ranges could be justified. It could be more of a zone-control/deterrent type of damage rather than another nuker.

I think there are MANY ways to go about making it a viable line, this being a great idea. It'd be a great control utility in fights that would add a unique (kind of scary in 2020 daoc i know!) concept to fights. Would love to keep hearing thoughts and ideas about this.