Scout Dmg - Phoenix Freeshard

You have said that you planned to make Archery system more appealing . Ranger/Hunter currently aren't super weak, Scout, is super weak. Alot of this comes from NNF Purge and not allowing scout to use their bow to makeup for their weak dps.

How about moving Scout to the same dmg table you moved Friar to? This would allow them to spec high in weapon and maybe do decent in melee fights with S/S.

I still feel Archery needs some changes, but Scout is probably the most gimp class on the entire server atm.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 3:22 PM by Isavyr

You may be right, but your post doesn't really outline how or why they are weak, or where they should be. How is anyone supposed to read this and walk away thinking you're right?

Fri 22 Feb 2019 4:13 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 3:22 PM
You may be right, but your post doesn't really outline how or why they are weak, or where they should be. How is anyone supposed to read this and walk away thinking you're right?

you again..... he clearly said nnf purge is the issue.

ot: i agree with you in archers being subpar. but still scout is not the most gimp class .... since you only have to skill like 27 into bow to do the "full dmg" you might consider skilling 44 thrust where you have access to a 27 sec anytime combo snare. also make use of numb (first shield style) to bring ppl to purge, then snare then slam.
i alrdy met scout who did that and where really hard to kill ... if killable^^ imo that makes the scout the best archer who does not have to melee in the first place

Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:09 PM by Amp_Phetamine

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 4:13 PM
Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 3:22 PM
You may be right, but your post doesn't really outline how or why they are weak, or where they should be. How is anyone supposed to read this and walk away thinking you're right?

you again..... he clearly said nnf purge is the issue.

ot: i agree with you in archers being subpar. but still scout is not the most gimp class .... since you only have to skill like 27 into bow to do the "full dmg" you might consider skilling 44 thrust where you have access to a 27 sec anytime combo snare. also make use of numb (first shield style) to bring ppl to purge, then snare then slam.
i alrdy met scout who did that and where really hard to kill ... if killable^^ imo that makes the scout the best archer who does not have to melee in the first place

Aye, the biggest mistake new Scouts will make is to instantly open with slam right off the bat. This is NOT a good plan of action, especially if you're high bow spec, high shield spec and low weapon.

I also don't agree that Scouts are the weakest class on the server, but I will agree that Scouts are (overall) the weakest among the 3 Archer archtypes.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:50 PM by teiloh

How much damage do Scouts do with Crit Shot, Reg Shot, Rapid fire and at what speed? Just wondering.

AFAIK Scouts always had the slowest bows at 5.7, 5.8. Is this replicated on Phoenix?

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:10 PM by dante`afk

Yea scout seems pretty week, only 750dmg critshots with rr2 and 100dmg shieldslams while blocking 80% of the time your offhand (with 50LA mind you) seems very weak.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:16 PM by Glimmer

dante`afk wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:10 PM
Yea scout seems pretty week, only 750dmg critshots with rr2 and 100dmg shieldslams while blocking 80% of the time your offhand (with 50LA mind you) seems very weak.

ofc ofc and nonstop evades from assassins and vanish at 5%

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:23 PM by Zansobar

teiloh wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 5:50 PM
How much damage do Scouts do with Crit Shot, Reg Shot, Rapid fire and at what speed? Just wondering.

AFAIK Scouts always had the slowest bows at 5.7, 5.8. Is this replicated on Phoenix?

No the slowest bow is the 5.5 spd crafted that is the same for both Scouts and Rangers. Hunters do not have access to that slow of a bow, however.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:37 PM by Isavyr

All archers are the same damage formula, except scouts gets the most range--100 more than Ranger, 200 more than Hunter. Meanwhile hunter cannot get the slowest bows.

If you can look past that, which obviously favors the Scout, let's examine melee. With their anytime 2-chain snare, evade 2-chain snare, and slam, Scouts appear to be in a good place, and the differences are moot--if you can reliably get side styles, than Ranger snares are better, meanwhile the Scout's ASR @ 39 is better.

If the scout blocks 40% of the Ranger's attacks, he will achieve about the same DPS on his enemy as the Ranger on the Scout, if the Ranger is 50 CD/36 pierce (ignoring armor types). That seems pretty reasonable.

Unless someone can give specific numbers, instead of vague opinions, I don't see how anyone can conclude the Scout is the worst. They each have different strengths.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:42 PM by Ashenspire

Ranger with 50+15 CD has a 70% chance to swing their offhand. That's roughly 150% of the DPS of the scout in melee before blocks.

A scout will not have a 40% block chance against a dual wielder.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:42 PM by Zansobar

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:37 PM
All archers are the same damage formula, except scouts gets the most range--100 more than Ranger, 200 more than Hunter. Meanwhile hunter cannot get the slowest bows.

If you can look past that, which obviously favors the Scout, let's examine melee. With their anytime 2-chain snare, evade 2-chain snare, and slam, Scouts appear to be in a good place, and the differences are moot--if you can reliably get side styles, than Ranger snares are better, meanwhile the Scout's ASR @ 39 is better.

If the scout blocks 40% of the Ranger's attacks, he will achieve about the same DPS on his enemy as the Ranger on the Scout, if the Ranger is 50 CD/36 pierce (ignoring armor types). That seems pretty reasonable.

Unless someone can give specific numbers, instead of vague opinions, I don't see how anyone can conclude the Scout is the worst.

I don't see how Scouts are for sure the worst either...they are marginally better in bow combat than Rangers, and supremely better than Hunters. Then there is that shield spec that Scouts act like is an albatross around their neck instead of the huge bonus it truly is...Yes they are going to have less damage in mellee than a Ranger, but you also have much more defense and the strongest (and easiest) melee stun in the game, unlike both other archers.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:43 PM by Zansobar

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:42 PM
Ranger with 50+15 CD has a 70% chance to swing their offhand. That's roughly 170% of the DPS of the scout in melee before blocks.

A scout will not have a 40% block chance against a dual wielder.

Off hand swings are unstyled, so they are not the same dps as mainhand swings which will be mostly styled.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:46 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:37 PM
All archers are the same damage formula, except scouts gets the most range--100 more than Ranger, 200 more than Hunter. Meanwhile hunter cannot get the slowest bows.

If you can look past that, which obviously favors the Scout, let's examine melee. With their anytime 2-chain snare, evade 2-chain snare, and slam, Scouts appear to be in a good place, and the differences are moot--if you can reliably get side styles, than Ranger snares are better, meanwhile the Scout's ASR @ 39 is better.

If the scout blocks 40% of the Ranger's attacks, he will achieve about the same DPS on his enemy as the Ranger on the Scout, if the Ranger is 50 CD/36 pierce (ignoring armor types). That seems pretty reasonable.

Unless someone can give specific numbers, instead of vague opinions, I don't see how anyone can conclude the Scout is the worst. They each have different strengths.

first time i can agree with you ;D

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:46 PM by Zansobar

A Ranger that is thrust spec will have a decided armor resist advantage over a Scout that is slash specced, but that isn't anything inherent in the class itself, just the armor and weapon resist types. The Scout has a 10% penalty to damage and the Ranger has a 10% bonus to damage based on armor and weapon type.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:48 PM by inoeth

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:46 PM
A Ranger that is thrust spec will have a decided armor resist advantage over a Scout that is slash specced, but that isn't anything inherent in the class itself, just the armor and weapon resist types. The Scout has a 10% penalty to damage and the Ranger has a 10% bonus to damage based on armor and weapon type.

well a slash speced scout is very gimp anyway thou

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:54 PM by Zansobar

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:48 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:46 PM
A Ranger that is thrust spec will have a decided armor resist advantage over a Scout that is slash specced, but that isn't anything inherent in the class itself, just the armor and weapon resist types. The Scout has a 10% penalty to damage and the Ranger has a 10% bonus to damage based on armor and weapon type.

well a slash speced scout is very gimp anyway thou

Well if he's thrust spec then it is the Hunter that has the advantage.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:56 PM by inoeth

Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:54 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:48 PM
Zansobar wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:46 PM
A Ranger that is thrust spec will have a decided armor resist advantage over a Scout that is slash specced, but that isn't anything inherent in the class itself, just the armor and weapon resist types. The Scout has a 10% penalty to damage and the Ranger has a 10% bonus to damage based on armor and weapon type.

well a slash speced scout is very gimp anyway thou

Well if he's thrust spec then it is the Hunter that has the advantage.

as a scout you do not rely on melee dmg ... you spec weapon for utility and there thrust is superior

Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:03 PM by Isavyr

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:42 PM
A scout will not have a 40% block chance against a dual wielder.

I really can't say. But some things to note, even if that's not true:
> It's easier to increase block-chance through RAs than it is damage
> Shield gives Guard, something a dual-wielder has no equivalent utility to

You could probably make a case for how relative their DPS should be based on the fact Ranger always accesses that DPS whereas scout only accesses defense when someone attacks them. I don't know what the right ratio would be.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:50 PM by inoeth

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:03 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 6:42 PM
A scout will not have a 40% block chance against a dual wielder.

I really can't say. But some things to note, even if that's not true:
> It's easier to increase block-chance through RAs than it is damage
> Shield gives Guard, something a dual-wielder has no equivalent utility to

You could probably make a case for how relative their DPS should be based on the fact Ranger always accesses that DPS whereas scout only accesses defense when someone attacks them. I don't know what the right ratio would be.

how exactly is guard a bonus in lets say a 1on1 fight?

Fri 22 Feb 2019 9:49 PM by Ganil

He's a troll. Don't bother.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:15 PM by Raec

Man, 50 shield , 21 slash is all you need.
U dont fking meele with weapon when u have a freaking shield which do crush dmg.
Just backup after block shield style with slam .
How could no one still suggest this?

Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:18 PM by Ganil

Shield is evaded a lot more.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:22 PM by Raec

50 + 11 shield ( at least )evaded more than 39 (?!) + 11 thrust ?! I realy don`t think...

Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:35 PM by Ganil

With 50 shield 29 slash my shield was evaded/miss a more than my blade.
I'm now 42 shield 41 thrust and it's obviously the same story. I don't have the evade rate right now, but there was around 10% difference I think.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:43 PM by Raec

Dance around your target , avoid frontal arc.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:01 PM by Ganil

If you're a dancer you can go 25 slash and use the side snare.
I think that going full dancer is lame tho.

Most class can interupt you if you do that anyway (hello nightshades and archers, and pretty much anything beside pure tanks).

Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:09 PM by Raec

Discussin doesn`t go anywere.
If u think triing to penetrate enemy defence is 'lame´ there`s nothing else to say.

Fri 22 Feb 2019 11:13 PM by Ganil

You can do it that way, it's true but it's not going to help you against other stealthers (except maybe shadowblades).

Sat 23 Feb 2019 12:35 AM by Isavyr

inoeth wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:50 PM
how exactly is guard a bonus in lets say a 1on1 fight?

I didn't say it was. My point was that the scout gains additional utility in their melee that nobody else gets, so it has to be accounted for somehow.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 8:18 AM by Cadebrennus

If a Scout player is going to spec close to shit points in their melee weapon line then they should expect a shit return in melee.

I tested 1h Hunter, 1h Scout, and 1h Ranger melee on beta. Guess what? At equal spec they put out equal damage.

Do not expect to put in 20ish spec points into a weapon and expect the same results as a 39 weapon specced Ranger or a 44 weapon specced Hunter. You get what you put in. I know Scouts don't get 2h damage or extra doggie damage, nor do they get offhand unstyled damage (not as fabulous as you think), but they get a lot more utility in a melee and close range group fight than Hunters and Rangers. Use that to your advantage and know that you get from your character what you spec for.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 9:50 AM by Hejjin

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 7:03 PM
> Shield gives Guard, something a dual-wielder has no equivalent utility to

Yes Scouts get guard, but that really only helps in a group, and as plenty of scouts will confirm, they have a hard time getting groups, whether in PvE or in RvR.

If scouts are really on par with rangers and hunters why is it that not reflected on the Phoenix Herald? The highest ranked scout on solo kills is a person that has done the majority of those kills in the BGs.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:16 AM by Ganil

If you exclude YamYam it's the same for rangers ;-).

They do have 2 times as many solo kills on average tho :p.

If you remove Akropa hunters are about the same as scout.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:35 AM by imamo

Raec wrote: ↑
Fri 22 Feb 2019 10:15 PM
Man, 50 shield , 21 slash is all you need.
U dont fking meele with weapon when u have a freaking shield which do crush dmg.
Just backup after block shield style with slam .
How could no one still suggest this?

shhh!

Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:43 AM by Hejjin

Ganil wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 10:16 AM
If you exclude YamYam it's the same for rangers ;-).

They do have 2 times as many solo kills on average tho :p.

If you remove Akropa hunters are about the same as scout.

So removing the top Ranger and the top Hunter brings parity with Scouts ;-? I am willing to accept those two are outliers, but even so, there are more than twice as many rangers on that list than there are scouts and hunters.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 11:28 AM by Ganil

You're just repeating what I said :p.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 12:01 PM by Hejjin

Ganil wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 11:28 AM
You're just repeating what I said :p.

In my my caffeine deprived defence, I was trying to determine if you were being serious or facetious ;-).

Sat 23 Feb 2019 12:59 PM by armath

My sb got 3 shot, fully buffed, AF charge everything, by a scout the other day...

He nearly got me second time aswell, if not it was for vanish.

He hit me for 700+ damage on crit shot, and 400+ normal arrows.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 1:31 PM by imamo

i would not complain about scout damage if i managed to get hit by critshot as sb.

9 of 10 scenarios you beat the shit out that scout easy. you always have upperhand, scouts have no counterplay against you. you decide when to fight and when to end. and you still complain that 700+ crit shot lol

hint: hit vanish and pa that scout.

Sat 23 Feb 2019 2:15 PM by skulllz

imamo wrote: ↑
Sat 23 Feb 2019 1:31 PM
hint: hit vanish and pa that scout.

is there not a disarm timer here after using vanish? i'm actually asking, since I didn't check. I've only tested the 3 archers in beta.

anyhow, the OP doesn't delve into the class deep enough to warrant much discussion about possible changes (need dmg numbers, spec points, various specs and their advantages/disadvantages, comparisons to the other archetypes, etc.). I will say on paper the scout seems gimp when the playerbase starts to have purge reliably up against them, but that's just at a glimpse without exploring the utility of the shield line further. Most players dont tap into the full potential of that line, and, instead hope to just run the scout as a full sniper slam-bot, rather than training more of a hybrid spec and using snares/etc. from their weapon (or buying time with engage and/or tricking the enemy with numb). These are just a few tools, but, again, if all you're doing is slamming and hoping for the best it can seem pretty dull - I will admit that. The thing about scout, though, is that it has the most reliable / spammable ability out of the 3 archers that can most likely help it resume what dmg it does the most (shooting). The other 2 have to use some pretty nifty positionals / kiting / positioning to reliably get shots off, while the scout has a default opener for it, even if it can be purged.. I'm just saying it makes the case tougher for arguing the class needs much in the way of damage when it can resume its highest form of dmg more often than other archers.

aside from that, I would argue what others have already said: if you spec low in weapon - expect low results. and, if any changes should be considered i would like to avoid buffing the archery line dmg for any of the 3 archers as when it does go off it can be quite high. if anything, utility could be added to what shots actually do (similiar to one type of cc shot or a bleed or dot or anything like that, rather than just adding raw dmg). for archers, in general, it'd be nice if their MoS added just a bit more stealth detection than sins, which is their hardest fight (this doesn't add raw dmg - making it a nice utility buff without overpowering the class's dps). I suggested this in a hunter thread, where I also suggested that the hunter pet could sprint (again, not adding any raw dps but just utility of how the class can be played and actually get use out of their spec points - this also can assist with either sniper-kite or full melee builds, which is nice).

Things like the above mentioned changes (utility) are more of what I hope to see rather than just saying "my class is weak, so please add dmg / hps / absorb RAs / etc etc etc). Just my opinion.