Remove Power Cost from Paladin Endo chant

Let's discuss the pros and cons to this. If this were to happen, what would you dislike about it? Do you think there's serious merit to not doing this?

As someone that plays all three realms, I don't have a problem with it as I don't see it affecting game balance, only reducing hand pain from constant unnecessary twisting. That being said, people who like to twist can still do so, and the benefits are still there.

I don't see how this could be abused, especially in comparison to the other realms. Thoughts?

Thu 28 Jun 2018 4:41 AM by Tokajer

I think it a good Idea but then bard songs need to be uninterupptable. But yes why not.

Thu 28 Jun 2018 6:09 PM by Seigmoraig

Tokajer wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jun 2018 4:41 AM
I think it a good Idea but then bard songs need to be uninterupptable. But yes why not.

I fail to see what the bard has to do with this.... I don't think anybody really believes that bards need a buff

Thu 28 Jun 2018 7:56 PM by Tokajer

Seigmoraig wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jun 2018 6:09 PM
Tokajer wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jun 2018 4:41 AM
I think it a good Idea but then bard songs need to be uninterupptable. But yes why not.

I fail to see what the bard has to do with this.... I don't think anybody really believes that bards need a buff

Because all have perma endurance and speed5

first thing you try is tun endurance on. Second turn ensure on third turn endurance on

Thu 28 Jun 2018 9:47 PM by bamf

Well, lets look at the other endo classes and see where they sacrifice to provide endurance.

Shaman: Concentration points used to apply buffs to players could reduce amount of other stat buffs. Also, class must specialize high in this to get endurance regen worth anything, reducing their effectiveness in healing and damage areas.

Bard: again, high amount of spec into nurture to gain speed, end regen, and pow regen. Though useful assets to groups, reduced cc capability and heal capability.

Paladin: specs into chants boosts paladin and group effectiveness.

The small amount of trouble to do small mana management on paladin with little to no sacrifice seems fair to me.

Fri 29 Jun 2018 2:31 AM by Isavyr

bamf wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Jun 2018 9:47 PM
The small amount of trouble to do small mana management on paladin with little to no sacrifice seems fair to me.

I'm looking for counter-reasons, not why it's OK that it's kept in place. Anyway, your point is wrong. Paladins have to spec into chants and lose damage to do that. They don't get it handed to them freely. Furthermore, it's a staple of paladin to have endo chant, just as a bard is expected to have speed 5. Yes, both classes could spec differently (which would be to everyone's chagrin), but that's a different point altogether. I'm referring to their current mechanic as it stands. Is it a good one?

If you want similar cases, look to autotrain--which while it could be justified, was removed because it was a bad mechanic that didn't serve the game well. Similar with multiple instruments on bards--you can do it, but nobody benefits from it. Just adds unnecessary penalty to normal gameplay (via mental and physical stress).

So instead of justifications, list reasons why powerless endo chant would ruin the game. How would this be a bigger issue? If a reason can't be had (and I really want a good discussion here), then it seems logical power should be removed, as it serves as a meaningless penalty.

Fri 29 Jun 2018 11:23 AM by Clydde

I think you're inverting the logic process.

Instead of asking others :"Try to find why this modification will ruin the game, if you can't find any, then i'm right", you should give people reasons why this modification would have no, or almost none, impact on the game. This might seem identical reasonning but it's not. You can't ask people "Prove me that unicorns don't exist, if you can't, then they exist". You have to bring proof that they exist, not the other way around.

That being said, every class that gives any buff has a "sacrifice" to do. It can be a power cost, a timer or a concentration need for example. Removing this power cost would remove this sacrifice. It's as if, for shamans, you removed the concentration needed and the fact that it counts in the pool of 20 buffs maximum they can cast. It feels like no harm done but it changes the game greatly.

Back to paladin. You say paladins have to sacrifice damages too. I agree, that's part of the game. But they can be specced 49 chants / 50 wepon / 30 shield to max out chants or 42 chants / 50 weapon / 39 shield to just have endu 5. It doesn't seem a huge penalty to me.

I see the paladin as a tank that is given powers to adapt to a situation. In order to make his actions count, he has to be careful of his mana pool and thus what chant he will activate. Removing one chant's cost is unbalancing that part of the game.

As a wider perspective, some modifications can be good, but they are not legions. I see many modification implying huge side effects, even some that we won't see until it would be tested live.

Fri 29 Jun 2018 8:41 PM by Isavyr

Your reasoning is correct in a general sense, but absurd to apply in DAoC where it amounts to the same thing. I asked for criticism because people are more willing to give criticism, so it's aimed at getting the human psyche to want to engage in discussion, instead of a high-minded philosophy.

Here is my viewpoint:
1) No other realm has power cost for endo
2) No other paladin chant has power cost

People twist out of necessity, just like bard changes instruments out of necessity. It does not add value to the game, and I don't think it affects balance significantly (similarly neither does Harp--it just removes bad design). Would it be overpowered if Paladins could run endo non-stop? It's obvious to me "no". Whether your enemy is running endo permanently without or with twisting doesn't greatly change the situation, as the end-result with the vast majority of groups is they will have endo up. In fact (as we've seen with Uthgard), it's likely for people to just run potions and forgo the paladin altogether. The idea that the paladin is providing something amazing with its power is simply false. Nor is management of its power pool adding anything to its playstyle, or the game.

And no, removing something doesn't by default "unbalance the game". That's just nonsense at face-value.

Sat 30 Jun 2018 2:25 AM by bamf

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Fri 29 Jun 2018 8:41 PM
Your reasoning is correct in a general sense, but absurd to apply in DAoC where it amounts to the same thing. I asked for criticism because people are more willing to give criticism, so it's aimed at getting the human psyche to want to engage in discussion, instead of a high-minded philosophy.

Here is my viewpoint:
1) No other realm has power cost for endo
2) No other paladin chant has power cost

People twist out of necessity, just like bard changes instruments out of necessity. It does not add value to the game, and I don't think it affects balance significantly (similarly neither does Harp--it just removes bad design). Would it be overpowered if Paladins could run endo non-stop? It's obvious to me "no". Whether your enemy is running endo permanently without or with twisting doesn't greatly change the situation, as the end-result with the vast majority of groups is they will have endo up. In fact (as we've seen with Uthgard), it's likely for people to just run potions and forgo the paladin altogether. The idea that the paladin is providing something amazing with its power is simply false. Nor is management of its power pool adding anything to its playstyle, or the game.

And no, removing something doesn't by default "unbalance the game". That's just nonsense at face-value.

You asked for discussion to weigh the pros and cons of this, but belligerently defend your original thought without much consideration of other peoples opinion. Why come asking if you think your way was the best. Just post in suggestions and not look for open forum. You keep saying no other class has to sacrifice mana for endo, but completely disregard our explanation as to what they actually have to sacrifice.

Sat 30 Jun 2018 5:48 AM by Isavyr

I'm not looking to create a confrontation. When I see a post that appears illogical, then I will respond with a rebuttal. This isn't evidence I don't want discussion, but the opposite. I am trying to participate in a good discussion on the issue.

Clyde wrote: I see the paladin as a tank that is given powers to adapt to a situation. In order to make his actions count, he has to be careful of his mana-pool and thus what chant he will activate. Removing one chant's cost is unbalancing that part of the game.

If this is the case you're referring to, I think you misidentify "belligerence"; I'm dismissive of his point because it appears based on incorrect information, and a supposition that "removing a chant's cost is unbalancing" when in fact most chants have no persistent cost.

It appears Clyde is unaware of how Paladin works; chants in general do not use power--only endo chant. So it's false to say the Paladin has to be careful which chants he activates in the name of conserving mana. In fact. Paladins actually twist to minimize their power consumption. This is sort of at the crux of the issue--you have to understand that a Paladin will provide a high up-time of endo anyway, they just have to smash buttons consistently to do it, the necessity of which is what I'm disputing.

Sun 1 Jul 2018 3:09 AM by Dve

Um sorry guys. I don't want to break your bubble, but the End Chant already has and always had 0 power cost, if you twist it correctly:
Because the power cost is only applied when the End Chant makes a full cycle, it is a free spell if you cancel it prematurely, and then instantly turn it back on to not lose a tick of the song.

There are two other "costs" though:
1. It is a strain on your fingers. If you really wanted to preserve all your mana, you'd have to keep twisting even at more than double the speed of the minstrel with his charm+speed song. Because of this, some paladins just let the chant run until you are out of power, and then twist until your power is full again. Others really hit that damn button every 3 seconds twice the whole time during roaming. The manapool is more than sufficient to sustain through a fight - the only matter is having the endurance chant when roaming / outside of fights.

2. Twisting ANY chant costs 5% endurance. It may sound crazy, but the paladin is the most endurance hungry tank in the whole game, iIf you attempt to keep highest efficiency with chants. Because of this, you will NEVER see a paladin sprinting (be it during a chase, be it during a kite), attempting to slam (high endurance cost!) and twisting random chants at the same time. They'd be out of endurance immediately! Instead, they will just keep the endurance chant running during the fight to be able to keep your endurance for slams and sprints. Because of all of this, it's only worth to use the chants very situationally (resist chants when you are nuked) - soo because paladins cannot really make a lot use of their class, it's often better to just invite a real fulltank or offtank and use invig pots.

My opinion:
The strain for twisting should not be an issue on a freeshard in the year 2018. If you want people to play this class, don't force them to press a button 2 times each 3 seconds throughout their whole evening - it does not even give your team an advantage over the enemy or the enemy an disadvantage. The only true advantage would be saving 5% endurance per twist, but in the end you could argue that if somebody decides to just let the endurance chant run all the time, he is practically never using the rest of his spells (70% of paladins spells are chants).

And sorry, this is also not a big of a "buff" enough to make people playi t anyways lol. It's rather a Quality of Life thingie.

Sun 1 Jul 2018 7:39 AM by

Uthred

It is not planned to remove power costs atm. Reason for this is, that on the one side paladins already got some nice buffs (det & increased endu range) and on the other side, that we will wait on the beta and how things will evolve there. We made a lot of changes in general, but never really saw how they will influence rvr and pve. We only have feedback on our setting so far from the tests while the Alpha was lasting.

A good example are the combi buff & regen pots. When we introduced them in the i50 Alpha, we thought it is a nice idea and would help solos to have fun too. What happened? Midgroups started running without a shaman. So we had to nerf them (less effective and not usuable for 2 mins after death). For some of you removing the power costs may only be an insignificant buff, but everything we change, has impact on the whole game. That doesnt mean, that we will never remove the endu costs (we discussed this issue some time before), but it also doesnt mean that we will do so. We will wait for the beta and have an eye on groups, classes & gameplay and may do some adjustments where we think it is necessary to.

Please keep in mind that there are endu 3 regen potions with 10, 30 or 100 charges that last for 10 mins. As Schaf wrote in another post some time ago, combine it with LW and TR and you can perma sprint:

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Wed 20 Jun 2018 4:20 PM
Once Long wind and Tireless reaches 5 in any combination (lw 2 and tireless 3, lw 4 and tireless 1 etc.) you can perma sprint without any other form of endurance regeneration.

Long wind reduces the endurance used by sprint by 1 per level. Tireless increases the regen by 1 per level and stacks with other end regen. LW 1, Tireless 1 and an endu 3 potion would be enough.

A paladin will mostly like not have to switch endurance. If you want to switch endu as a paladin without losing endurance, it would be an option to go for LW 2 or TR 2.

Tue 3 Jul 2018 12:29 AM by Isavyr

While I believe this particular issue is inconsequential, I'm both glad that your team had formerly considered it, and are opting for the cautious route. Always better to be cautious than reckless. Thanks for the feedback.