Rearrange stat gains for Classes on Level Up

Personally I thought the class stat Respec stones were a great idea in that they'd go a long way to fix some of the issues that are currently in the game that are classes getting useless stats on level up.

I know there was the argument that some classes would benefit too greatly from the stones (giving +50 Dex to support classes was the biggest gripe), them becoming must haves for the elite group mentality that can sometimes permeate the community, and some specs would determine different desires for primary/secondary/tertiary stats for classes.

But I believe there are some outliers that can be fixed across the board where classes get stat increases while leveling up that are either useless or all-but useless in the grand scheme:

ALBION

Cleric: Pie/Con/Str > Pie/Con/Dex
Paladin: Con/Pie/Str > Str/Con/Pie
Necro/Cab/Sorc/Wiz/Theurg: Int/Dex/Qui > Int/Dex/Con
Friar: Pie/Con/Str > Pie/Con/Dex

MIDGARD

BD/RM/SM: Pie/Dex/Qui > Pie/Dex/Con
Healer/Shaman: Pie/Con/Str > Pie/Con/Dex

HIBERNIA

Eldritch/Mentalist/Enchanter: Int/Dex/Qui > Int/Dex/Con
Animist: Int/Con/Dex > Int/Dex/Con
Champion: Str/Int/Dex > Str/Int/Con
Bard: Cha/Emp/Con > Cha/Con/Dex
Druid: Emp/Con/Str > Emp/Con/Dex

Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:37 PM by teiloh

All of the primary healers are PIE or EMP/CON/STR right now iirc

Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:40 PM by Ashenspire

Interesting. Updated the list.

Mon 10 Feb 2020 8:33 PM by Ashenspire

Self bump to maybe get some visibility from the devs. If this is even possible, that is.

Mon 10 Feb 2020 9:11 PM by Wrikur

Why casters get quickness as their tertiary stat i'll never understand. At the very least change that one if possible

Mon 10 Feb 2020 10:28 PM by Ashenspire

Its a weird one. But at least there's a benefit from it. Hence the "all-but useless" comment in my original post.

Compare that to bards who gain literally nothing from Empathy.

I'd love to see Paladins not gaining Piety as they level, as it's useless in execution, but giving them str/con/Dex on level would really hurt armsmen.

Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:32 AM by teiloh

A long time ago interrupt delays were affected by the casters quick I believe

Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:14 PM by Ashenspire

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Feb 2020 3:32 AM
A long time ago interrupt delays were affected by the casters quick I believe

Yeah, believe it was affected by their swing speed.

Still a terrible decision that I'd love to see fixed.

Tue 11 Feb 2020 9:23 PM by The Skies Asunder

Honestly the idea of them allowing us to pick our rising stats wasn't a terrible one in theory, it was mostly the gateway to getting them that was bad. I wouldn't mind them allowing us to change them for a few weeks, and see how things go, or simply changing the ones you have listed to be relevant would be good too.

Tue 11 Feb 2020 9:36 PM by easytoremember

acu/acu/acu please

Wed 12 Feb 2020 8:58 AM by Zzang

+1

Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:11 AM by Sepplord

-1

Wed 12 Feb 2020 12:27 PM by Harvest

I'm 100% for this.
+1

Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 PM by Ashenspire

Happy to see that other than the resident troll this is viewed pretty positively.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:58 PM by opossum12

Hmm there would be some additional balancing to be done in my opinion.

If you give support a lot more dex, do you reduce the value of their heals to keep healing in check? Do you increase the cast speed of their spells to keep it balanced?

If you give paladin Str as primary stat, do you bump them down in their damage table so they're back to their regular dps levels?

Again you need to view this as a whole. Do you think the game is incredibly unbalanced at the moment? Do you believe changing raising stats for some classes (while others are untouched) would help solve that imbalance?

You have to remember that changes were made to specific classes in order to bring them back in line and give them a role of their own. I'm thinking about Paladin and Friars that were bumped in their damage tables, there must be more.

So unless you are trying to fix something (other than some initial design decision that doesn't make sense, I agree), then I'd say don't change anything.

This is the approach that BS took on Ywain, and it takes roughly 3-4 patches to re-balance everything once you've made the change. In the meantime, you run around with OP characters for a period of time.

My 2 cents.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:53 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 PM
Happy to see that other than the resident troll this is viewed pretty positively.

You are the one creating a new topic that is/was heavily discussed already as if your contribution to the topic is worth more than others that simply commented there...

And because i didn't bother to have the discussion all over again, and rewrite all arguments i am a Troll...

I guess they ditched the respeccstone idea and replaced it with a genderrespecc within minutes of their announcement because of the overwhelming positive Feedback

Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:42 PM by Ashenspire

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:53 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 PM
Happy to see that other than the resident troll this is viewed pretty positively.

You are the one creating a new topic that is/was heavily discussed already as if your contribution to the topic is worth more than others that simply commented there...

And because i didn't bother to have the discussion all over again, and rewrite all arguments i am a Troll...

I guess they ditched the respeccstone idea and replaced it with a genderrespecc within minutes of their announcement because of the overwhelming positive Feedback

Right, so you didn't read what I wrote, are easily swayed by public outcry, and don't address anything I actually proposed.

Simply "-1 because people freaked out about supports getting 50 Dex and them being gated behind gambling is bad" even though neither of those points have anything to do with what I proposed.

Bad troll is bad.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:55 PM by Ashenspire

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:58 PM
Hmm there would be some additional balancing to be done in my opinion.

If you give support a lot more dex, do you reduce the value of their heals to keep healing in check? Do you increase the cast speed of their spells to keep it balanced?

If you give paladin Str as primary stat, do you bump them down in their damage table so they're back to their regular dps levels?

Again you need to view this as a whole. Do you think the game is incredibly unbalanced at the moment? Do you believe changing raising stats for some classes (while others are untouched) would help solve that imbalance?

You have to remember that changes were made to specific classes in order to bring them back in line and give them a role of their own. I'm thinking about Paladin and Friars that were bumped in their damage tables, there must be more.

So unless you are trying to fix something (other than some initial design decision that doesn't make sense, I agree), then I'd say don't change anything.

This is the approach that BS took on Ywain, and it takes roughly 3-4 patches to re-balance everything once you've made the change. In the meantime, you run around with OP characters for a period of time.

My 2 cents.

Do I think the game is incredibly unbalanced? No.

Do I think classes getting wasted/practically useless stars on level up is bad design and feels really bad, too? I do.

No, I don't think Paladins getting 30 more strength or friars getting 15 more Dex would require them to be dropped down weaponskill tables, as ~40-80 weaponskill wouldn't break the classes.

Do I think casters/supports getting an extra 15 Dex is going to break the balance of the game? It won't.

There's just no reason at this point in the games life cycle for the stat distribution to be what it is on the classes.

It would be better for the game if they addressed this then did any balance needed (which would be worst case scenario minimal) after the fact than let something silly like this stay in the game.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:16 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:53 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:35 PM
Happy to see that other than the resident troll this is viewed pretty positively.

You are the one creating a new topic that is/was heavily discussed already as if your contribution to the topic is worth more than others that simply commented there...

And because i didn't bother to have the discussion all over again, and rewrite all arguments i am a Troll...

I guess they ditched the respeccstone idea and replaced it with a genderrespecc within minutes of their announcement because of the overwhelming positive Feedback

Right, so you didn't read what I wrote, are easily swayed by public outcry, and don't address anything I actually proposed.

Simply "-1 because people freaked out about supports getting 50 Dex and them being gated behind gambling is bad" even though neither of those points have anything to do with what I proposed.

Bad troll is bad.

It seems you are still not realizing that there is a whole thread just about this topic, even more restrictive than your proposal with a heavy part of the discussion carried by myself.
Basically every single accusation you make there is completely wrong and based on nothing but your emotions...but i am the troll.

If you had a bit of decency you would do a bit of research before lashing out, and actual Interest in the Topic besides selfpromotion you would search for a thread that is mentioned instead of assuming you already know it all

Calling you a Troll would be generous as it would mean you plannend this. I believe you just accidently stumbled into it with ignorance

Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:29 PM by Riac

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:16 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:53 PM
You are the one creating a new topic that is/was heavily discussed already as if your contribution to the topic is worth more than others that simply commented there...

And because i didn't bother to have the discussion all over again, and rewrite all arguments i am a Troll...

I guess they ditched the respeccstone idea and replaced it with a genderrespecc within minutes of their announcement because of the overwhelming positive Feedback

Right, so you didn't read what I wrote, are easily swayed by public outcry, and don't address anything I actually proposed.

Simply "-1 because people freaked out about supports getting 50 Dex and them being gated behind gambling is bad" even though neither of those points have anything to do with what I proposed.

Bad troll is bad.

It seems you are still not realizing that there is a whole thread just about this topic, even more restrictive than your proposal with a heavy part of the discussion carried by myself.
Basically every single accusation you make there is completely wrong and based on nothing but your emotions...but i am the troll.

If you had a bit of decency you would do a bit of research before lashing out, and actual Interest in the Topic besides selfpromotion you would search for a thread that is mentioned instead of assuming you already know it all

Calling you a Troll would be generous as it would mean you plannend this. I believe you just accidently stumbled into it with ignorance

BRING BACK OLD FRONTIERS!

Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:49 PM by Ashenspire

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:16 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:42 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 5:53 PM
You are the one creating a new topic that is/was heavily discussed already as if your contribution to the topic is worth more than others that simply commented there...

And because i didn't bother to have the discussion all over again, and rewrite all arguments i am a Troll...

I guess they ditched the respeccstone idea and replaced it with a genderrespecc within minutes of their announcement because of the overwhelming positive Feedback

Right, so you didn't read what I wrote, are easily swayed by public outcry, and don't address anything I actually proposed.

Simply "-1 because people freaked out about supports getting 50 Dex and them being gated behind gambling is bad" even though neither of those points have anything to do with what I proposed.

Bad troll is bad.

It seems you are still not realizing that there is a whole thread just about this topic, even more restrictive than your proposal with a heavy part of the discussion carried by myself.
Basically every single accusation you make there is completely wrong and based on nothing but your emotions...but i am the troll.

If you had a bit of decency you would do a bit of research before lashing out, and actual Interest in the Topic besides selfpromotion you would search for a thread that is mentioned instead of assuming you already know it all

Calling you a Troll would be generous as it would mean you plannend this. I believe you just accidently stumbled into it with ignorance

I read the thread. Its tangentially, at best, related to what I suggested as it concerns stats on level up and how the stone gated behind gambling would separate the haves from the have nots and some people running around with 50 extra Dex over others would be an issue. Saw your contribution to that thread. As per usual, wasn't impressed.

You're bad at this.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:05 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 7:49 PM
I read the thread. Its tangentially, at best, related to what I suggested as it concerns stats on level up and how the stone gated behind gambling would separate the haves from the have nots and some people running around with 50 extra Dex over others would be an issue. Saw your contribution to that thread. As per usual, wasn't impressed.

You're bad at this.

You STILL haven't read it, it wasn't about gambling, it wasn't about giving supportclasses 50dex. It was about ONLY changing stats for Bards and Friars, as they are the only ones with truely useless combatstats.
Again quite a lot of irony and projection in your accusations

PS:
I noticed you forgot to upvote your own comment, like you did with the previous ones.
I upvoted this one for you, just until you get around to doing it yourself. We don't want the other readers to get confused where your support went, do we?

now THAT's a troll move, i agree... i just couldn't help myself in your case

Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:41 PM by Ashenspire

Hey thanks for the reminder. Forgot about the like. What can I say? I'm a fan of my own ideas.

But you're right, i definitely didn't read the thread about the new stone with the gambling and the public outcry that had them change their mind because people got angry over the implementation. I'm just making that all up (even though you referred to that exact outcry yourself, but alright).

You got me. Got me so good.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:02 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 9:41 PM
Hey thanks for the reminder. Forgot about the like. What can I say? I'm a fan of my own ideas.

But you're right, i definitely didn't read the thread about the new stone with the gambling and the public outcry that had them change their mind because people got angry over the implementation. I'm just making that all up (even though you referred to that exact outcry yourself, but alright).

You got me. Got me so good.

Uhh... I will just repeat my last comments first Paragraph

it wasn't about gambling, it wasn't about giving supportclasses 50dex. It was about ONLY changing stats for Bards and Friars, as they are the only ones with truely useless combatstats.

Usually the "third time" is the charm...I was really going for a success there. I Hope you will Finally realize that there is another thread. Maybe you are just a tad slow and "fourth times a charm" for you. I still have hopes that we don't have to go into round 5

Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:22 PM by Ashenspire

So rather than link to the thread, which you've had ample opportunity as you've admitted yourself at this point, you'd rather just cling to some humble brag about doing the "heavy part" in the discussion. If that's the glowing review of the thread, then clearly it's not worth reading based off the interactions here and other places I've seen you comment on these forums.

I posted this in response to the Respec stones announcement. That was pretty clear. Pardon me for not trudging through all the posts on these forums to find some one off thread written by people with typically little to no understanding of the game and how it works.

But hey, imagine thinking this is only an issue for bards and friars or that Piety actually does anything for paladins (and hey I was actually nice with my recommendation and still kept it to keep them in line with the other hybrids), quickness for casters, or strength for healers in execution.

That was my biggest point of the original post. It's not just friars and bards, there are a bunch of classes that are affected, that can apparently be addressed.

God damn trolls, this is why we can't have nice things.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:50 PM by opossum12

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:55 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:58 PM
Hmm there would be some additional balancing to be done in my opinion.

If you give support a lot more dex, do you reduce the value of their heals to keep healing in check? Do you increase the cast speed of their spells to keep it balanced?

If you give paladin Str as primary stat, do you bump them down in their damage table so they're back to their regular dps levels?

Again you need to view this as a whole. Do you think the game is incredibly unbalanced at the moment? Do you believe changing raising stats for some classes (while others are untouched) would help solve that imbalance?

You have to remember that changes were made to specific classes in order to bring them back in line and give them a role of their own. I'm thinking about Paladin and Friars that were bumped in their damage tables, there must be more.

So unless you are trying to fix something (other than some initial design decision that doesn't make sense, I agree), then I'd say don't change anything.

This is the approach that BS took on Ywain, and it takes roughly 3-4 patches to re-balance everything once you've made the change. In the meantime, you run around with OP characters for a period of time.

My 2 cents.

Do I think the game is incredibly unbalanced? No.

Do I think classes getting wasted/practically useless stars on level up is bad design and feels really bad, too? I do.

No, I don't think Paladins getting 30 more strength or friars getting 15 more Dex would require them to be dropped down weaponskill tables, as ~40-80 weaponskill wouldn't break the classes.

Do I think casters/supports getting an extra 15 Dex is going to break the balance of the game? It won't.

There's just no reason at this point in the games life cycle for the stat distribution to be what it is on the classes.

It would be better for the game if they addressed this then did any balance needed (which would be worst case scenario minimal) after the fact than let something silly like this stay in the game.

But aside from you not being able to accept that it's the way it is, what are you trying to fix?

Just because not thinking it's the way it should be is not a good answer

Giving paladins free Aug str 6 is nothing and wont affect paladins in their performance? Why do paladins need to get free aug str 6? Is it cause they suck? Paladins out dps pole armsman because of the changes made tonthem on phx amd the 2h styles growth rates, imagine with aug str 6?

Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:06 PM by Ashenspire

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:50 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:55 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 4:58 PM
Hmm there would be some additional balancing to be done in my opinion.

If you give support a lot more dex, do you reduce the value of their heals to keep healing in check? Do you increase the cast speed of their spells to keep it balanced?

If you give paladin Str as primary stat, do you bump them down in their damage table so they're back to their regular dps levels?

Again you need to view this as a whole. Do you think the game is incredibly unbalanced at the moment? Do you believe changing raising stats for some classes (while others are untouched) would help solve that imbalance?

You have to remember that changes were made to specific classes in order to bring them back in line and give them a role of their own. I'm thinking about Paladin and Friars that were bumped in their damage tables, there must be more.

So unless you are trying to fix something (other than some initial design decision that doesn't make sense, I agree), then I'd say don't change anything.

This is the approach that BS took on Ywain, and it takes roughly 3-4 patches to re-balance everything once you've made the change. In the meantime, you run around with OP characters for a period of time.

My 2 cents.

Do I think the game is incredibly unbalanced? No.

Do I think classes getting wasted/practically useless stars on level up is bad design and feels really bad, too? I do.

No, I don't think Paladins getting 30 more strength or friars getting 15 more Dex would require them to be dropped down weaponskill tables, as ~40-80 weaponskill wouldn't break the classes.

Do I think casters/supports getting an extra 15 Dex is going to break the balance of the game? It won't.

There's just no reason at this point in the games life cycle for the stat distribution to be what it is on the classes.

It would be better for the game if they addressed this then did any balance needed (which would be worst case scenario minimal) after the fact than let something silly like this stay in the game.

But aside from you not being able to accept that it's the way it is, what are you trying to fix?

Just because not thinking it's the way it should be is not a good answer

Giving paladins free Aug str 6 is nothing and wont affect paladins in their performance? Why do paladins need to get free aug str 6? Is it cause they suck? Paladins out dps pole armsman because of the changes made tonthem on phx amd the 2h styles growth rates, imagine with aug str 6?

It's not about it being "the way it is." The way it is is bad, and should be addressed accordingly. Many classes currently gain stats that effectively do nothing for them. The stat Respec stone suggestion proved this could be remedied, and needs to be remedied as such. My

As for the last comment, yeah, no. Armsman has the same growth rate on their 2h, and even better ones on polearm. With more strength and a higher damage table.

Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:12 PM by Sepplord

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:22 PM
So rather than link to the thread, which you've had ample opportunity as you've admitted yourself at this point, you'd rather just cling to some humble brag about doing the "heavy part" in the discussion. If that's the glowing review of the thread, then clearly it's not worth reading based off the interactions here and other places I've seen you comment on these forums.

I posted this in response to the Respec stones announcement. That was pretty clear. Pardon me for not trudging through all the posts on these forums to find some one off thread written by people with typically little to no understanding of the game and how it works.

But hey, imagine thinking this is only an issue for bards and friars or that Piety actually does anything for paladins (and hey I was actually nice with my recommendation and still kept it to keep them in line with the other hybrids), quickness for casters, or strength for healers in execution.

That was my biggest point of the original post. It's not just friars and bards, there are a bunch of classes that are affected, that can apparently be addressed.

God damn trolls, this is why we can't have nice things.

All i did was comment a "-1". Nothing else...until you went down the asshole road, calling me a Troll while riding the imaginary high road position that noone besides trolls disagree. So please, save me your tears about you being treated unfairly.

Every single statement afterwards is a reaction to the new accusations. For example my "heavy work" was mentioned after you accused me of not making my own arguments

You can try and spin that as much as you want. It's doesn't become true and why would i immediatly do the "dirty work" for you after you started like that?
You could have shown that you actually read carefully what i wrote and ASK for a link. Instead you have proven again and again that you are unwillng to properly read single comments, so what good would linking a whole thread do? Especially when you can't even be arsed to look or even ask about it?

Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:02 AM by opossum12

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 11:06 PM
opossum12 wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:50 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 6:55 PM
Do I think the game is incredibly unbalanced? No.

Do I think classes getting wasted/practically useless stars on level up is bad design and feels really bad, too? I do.

No, I don't think Paladins getting 30 more strength or friars getting 15 more Dex would require them to be dropped down weaponskill tables, as ~40-80 weaponskill wouldn't break the classes.

Do I think casters/supports getting an extra 15 Dex is going to break the balance of the game? It won't.

There's just no reason at this point in the games life cycle for the stat distribution to be what it is on the classes.

It would be better for the game if they addressed this then did any balance needed (which would be worst case scenario minimal) after the fact than let something silly like this stay in the game.

But aside from you not being able to accept that it's the way it is, what are you trying to fix?

Just because not thinking it's the way it should be is not a good answer

Giving paladins free Aug str 6 is nothing and wont affect paladins in their performance? Why do paladins need to get free aug str 6? Is it cause they suck? Paladins out dps pole armsman because of the changes made tonthem on phx amd the 2h styles growth rates, imagine with aug str 6?

It's not about it being "the way it is." The way it is is bad, and should be addressed accordingly. Many classes currently gain stats that effectively do nothing for them. The stat Respec stone suggestion proved this could be remedied, and needs to be remedied as such. My

As for the last comment, yeah, no. Armsman has the same growth rate on their 2h, and even better ones on polearm. With more strength and a higher damage table.

Actually the highest growth rate for positionals are in the 2H line (not pole) but whatever.

Again, what are you trying to fix? You offer a solution, so there must be a problem?

I don't think bards are complaining about how gimp their class is. I don't see paladins saying how little dps they do.

Again, I asked you what imbalance you are trying to solve. You said there weren't any. I asked you what problem you are trying to fix, you still haven't answered.

I get it you're very anal about starting stats. You want it fixed, the non-sense of knowing that friars don't get dex when their casting stat is dex and their staff dmg is dex keeps you awake at night. And since you are such an altruist you want it fixed no matter that 90% of the pop disagrees with you.

You are the hero here, keep it up.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:24 AM by Ashenspire

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:02 AM
Actually the highest growth rate for positionals are in the 2H line (not pole) but whatever.

Positionals, yes. You're talking .88 (2h side) and .84 (2h rear) vs .82 (pole rear) with more strength and a higher damage table. Polearm wins. Nevermind that rear styles are typically easier to land than side ones on targets that will typically be trying to run away from an armsman in their face. And if it's something that can hit back? Forget it. Defender's Rage is ridiculous.

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:02 AM
Again, what are you trying to fix? You offer a solution, so there must be a problem?

The problem is there are many classes in this game across all realms that don't get the full 83 stat points that are actually beneficial for their class. Getting a stat point on level up that is useless to you is bad design, feels bad, makes no sense, etc.

opossum12 wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:02 AM
I get it you're very anal about starting stats. You want it fixed, the non-sense of knowing that friars don't get dex when their casting stat is dex and their staff dmg is dex keeps you awake at night. And since you are such an altruist you want it fixed no matter that 90% of the pop disagrees with you.

You are the hero here, keep it up.

So you're just as big an ass as the other guy. Good to know. Always helps your argument to pull stats out of the air, though. It's neat.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 12:37 AM by opossum12

What statistics did Inpost? Curious

But lets take a real life example, the imperial and metric systems.

The imperial system, in its design, is completely stupid. Lengths are divided by 12, temperature doesn't have logical limits fixed on physical phenomenons, weight have strange units, you even have liquid and weiggt units that share the same name.

In the sake of logic, the imperial system should be banned and replaced by the metric system. However, countries like the US keep this medieval unit system because

1. It works for them
2. If you change to the metric system, a lot of parallel stuff would need to be updated.

Do you see a pattern with what you are asking for the devs to change?

Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:56 AM by Harvest

People against that change are so funny... So butthurt for 15/25 more Stat, like it will make a difference in terms of balance... It's fun to see that even in this post the same two people keep speaking about balance or keeping the things how they are without even giving a meter to this so called "balance".

What can you call balance? Do you have data, statistic, estimation that could lead to a determined balance? Or is just your gut feeling/preferences that are speaking? Probably the second, since there is no way in a game like DAoC to determine what is balanced or not (Aside from certain occasional critically OP things but that are more on the "Single Utility"-Spectrum and not about a general status of the Game)

Saying 90% of the people are against it, when there are only two people that in 3 different Thread are arguing and answering vocally against it...
From what I saw in these 3 Thread, most people are fine or want that change, but they just write a positive comment then don't bother answering at that vocal opposition (2 people lol).

At this point would be good an answer from the Phoenix Staff.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:46 AM by Azuell

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:22 PM
So rather than link to the thread, which you've had ample opportunity as you've admitted yourself at this point, you'd rather just cling to some humble brag about doing the "heavy part" in the discussion. If that's the glowing review of the thread, then clearly it's not worth reading based off the interactions here and other places I've seen you comment on these forums.

I posted this in response to the Respec stones announcement. That was pretty clear. Pardon me for not trudging through all the posts on these forums to find some one off thread written by people with typically little to no understanding of the game and how it works.

But hey, imagine thinking this is only an issue for bards and friars or that Piety actually does anything for paladins (and hey I was actually nice with my recommendation and still kept it to keep them in line with the other hybrids), quickness for casters, or strength for healers in execution.

That was my biggest point of the original post. It's not just friars and bards, there are a bunch of classes that are affected, that can apparently be addressed.

God damn trolls, this is why we can't have nice things.

Jesus man, you're literally making the exact same arguments that were already done in the thread Sepplord is referencing:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12353

This has already been discussed, why not add your input there instead of starting your own thread like you just came up with some novel idea. That's all he was trying to say.

Look, I understand the point you guys are trying to make, I really do, and I wouldn't be super upset if this was changed. But it's like you guys aren't even reading the counter arguments being made.

The stats don't make sense, we can agree on that. But all balancing has been done with these stats as they are. If you want to go and change all these stats you need a better reason than "it doesn't make sense and I don't like it". These stat changes aren't negligible. Free Aug x is not negligible. And if they were negligible, then who the fuck cares?

Leave it be, there is no reason to make changes just to make changes.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:11 AM by Harvest

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:46 AM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Wed 12 Feb 2020 10:22 PM
So rather than link to the thread, which you've had ample opportunity as you've admitted yourself at this point, you'd rather just cling to some humble brag about doing the "heavy part" in the discussion. If that's the glowing review of the thread, then clearly it's not worth reading based off the interactions here and other places I've seen you comment on these forums.

I posted this in response to the Respec stones announcement. That was pretty clear. Pardon me for not trudging through all the posts on these forums to find some one off thread written by people with typically little to no understanding of the game and how it works.

But hey, imagine thinking this is only an issue for bards and friars or that Piety actually does anything for paladins (and hey I was actually nice with my recommendation and still kept it to keep them in line with the other hybrids), quickness for casters, or strength for healers in execution.

That was my biggest point of the original post. It's not just friars and bards, there are a bunch of classes that are affected, that can apparently be addressed.

God damn trolls, this is why we can't have nice things.

Jesus man, you're literally making the exact same arguments that were already done in the thread Sepplord is referencing:
https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12353

This has already been discussed, why not add your input there instead of starting your own thread like you just came up with some novel idea. That's all he was trying to say.

Look, I understand the point you guys are trying to make, I really do, and I wouldn't be super upset if this was changed. But it's like you guys aren't even reading the counter arguments being made.

The stats don't make sense, we can agree on that. But all balancing has been done with these stats as they are. If you want to go and change all these stats you need a better reason than "it doesn't make sense and I don't like it". These stat changes aren't negligible. Free Aug x is not negligible. And if they were negligible, then who the fuck cares?

Leave it be, there is no reason to make changes just to make changes.

It is negligibile, that's the point...
If you know the math behind Stats you already know it... A range of 15/25 Stat gain is always in terms of 1/4% increase (depending on the Stat and on the Class).
As said before, people take Aug X, because is the cheapest RA that effect your Character, not because is optimal... It's all about Min/Maxing.

Giving Aug Str 3 to a Tank or Aug Dex 3 to a Caster, MATHEMATICALLY give a change in Damage/Cast Speed so minor that it barely even matter.

But people like to feel the placebo effect and saying phrases like "Oh god, now that I have Aug Str 3 I do so much more damage!"/"Now that I have Aug Dex 3 I cast so much faster!, no you don't dummy, you can't even probably feel it unless you are super human with a reaction time so high to being able to count in 0.0x seconds...

Also, for the state that DAoC was in Classic/SI, I can guarantee you that there was no balance made around stats that were given at Classes on Level-Up... That was even confirmed by Mark Jacobs (Co-Creator of DAoC) on the Old Forum of Camelot Unchained, when questioned about Balance State of the Classes/Races in DAoC (People were worried to see again in his new Game a "Troll/Melee situation" were a certain Class was forced to be a certain Race to be effective)... He even said that there was not much thought about that because Stats matter so little compared to other MMORPG, and they simply tried to make some choices that made senses, even if sometimes they completely missed the "Mark" (Pun intended), and after that they leaved the things how they were because people were not hugely vocal about it being changed... All that followed by a "We will not make the same mistake on CU, don't worry".

So please, stop advocating about balance or choices made for that "balance" because there was no balance/choices since the beginning.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:46 AM by Sepplord

Harvest wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:56 AM
[...] It's fun to see that even in this post the same two people keep speaking about balance [...]

[...] are only two people that in 3 different Thread are arguing and answering vocally against it... [...]

From what I saw in these 3 Thread, most people are fine or want that change, but they just write a positive comment then don't bother answering at that vocal opposition (2 people lol). [...]

I have just mentioned it in my previous comment and if you actually paid attention, all i did in this thread was post a "-1"-comment. Nothing else. The arguments have been laid out in a different thread and in the threads that are generally read by more people (aka official change announcements from the staff) the feedback was overwhelmingly negative.

So neither was i very vocal here about it, nor are there just two people against it.

I am very vocal when people just randomly start discrediting me or misrepresent my opinion

Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:59 AM by Sepplord

BTW. just because you guys mentioned approval figures and how you like facts i went back and looked at the actual comments/commenters of this thread (in order of appearance):

Ashenspire pro-change
telioh hasn't given opinion, just added factual details
Wrikur pro-change
TheSkiesAsunder neutral, wants tests first to see
easytoremember ridiculing the idea by proposing acu/acu/acu as new stat gain
ZZAng pro change
Sepplord anti-change
Harvest pro change
opossum anti-change
Riac ridiculing the thread by demanding OF

Summary:
Pro-change 4
Anti-change 2
neutral 1
Troll/Jokers 2

So, as fact loving guys you claimed to be, i hope you rethink your position of having overwhelming support, that is supposed to be representative of the playerbases opinion.
Since i did the start, how about showing a bit of goodwill and doing the same analysis for the announcement thread where more people participated?

Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:30 PM by Ashenspire

The only people against this are the ones saying "it'll ruin balance!"

Except that all three realms would benefit from their casters and healers not getting useless stats and while some hybrids may make out better than others, those hybrids do suffer from a lack of groupability in the grand balance scheme as is.

There's no good argument against fixing bad game design. It's not just because "I want I want." I don't play bard, casters, friar, or healers.

At the end of the day, a core concept of the game that is "all classes have a primary, secondary, and tertiary stat that increases on level up," but some classes get no use from them and it isn't balanced, both in fun and execution, for some classes to have wasted stat distribution and others to not. Full stop.

The Respec stones are proof that this can be fixed/adjusted, and something that has been a problem for 20 years should be addressed.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:44 PM by gotwqqd

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
The only people against this are the ones saying "it'll ruin balance!"

Except that all three realms would benefit from their casters and healers not getting useless stats and while some hybrids may make out better than others, those hybrids do suffer from a lack of groupability in the grand balance scheme as is.

There's no good argument against fixing bad game design. It's not just because "I want I want." I don't play bard, casters, friar, or healers.

At the end of the day, a core concept of the game that is "all classes have a primary, secondary, and tertiary stat that increases on level up," but some classes get no use from them and it isn't balanced, both in fun and execution, for some classes to have wasted stat distribution and others to not. Full stop.

The Respec stones are proof that this can be fixed/adjusted, and something that has been a problem for 20 years should be addressed.

But
It’s not been a problem

Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:12 PM by Enyore

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
The only people against this are the ones saying "it'll ruin balance!"

Except that all three realms would benefit from their casters and healers not getting useless stats and while some hybrids may make out better than others, those hybrids do suffer from a lack of groupability in the grand balance scheme as is.

There's no good argument against fixing bad game design. It's not just because "I want I want." I don't play bard, casters, friar, or healers.

At the end of the day, a core concept of the game that is "all classes have a primary, secondary, and tertiary stat that increases on level up," but some classes get no use from them and it isn't balanced, both in fun and execution, for some classes to have wasted stat distribution and others to not. Full stop.

The Respec stones are proof that this can be fixed/adjusted, and something that has been a problem for 20 years should be addressed.

Except it wouldn't fix anything, because the classes are not broken because of how it is now - it would just be a change for the sake of change and would just result in having to re-balance a lot of spells, styles and classes. You would just make some classes better that doesn't actually need it and thus creating a problem.

its just nerd-OCD thats all it is.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM AS IT IS NOW

Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:28 PM by Ashenspire

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 4:44 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
The only people against this are the ones saying "it'll ruin balance!"

Except that all three realms would benefit from their casters and healers not getting useless stats and while some hybrids may make out better than others, those hybrids do suffer from a lack of groupability in the grand balance scheme as is.

There's no good argument against fixing bad game design. It's not just because "I want I want." I don't play bard, casters, friar, or healers.

At the end of the day, a core concept of the game that is "all classes have a primary, secondary, and tertiary stat that increases on level up," but some classes get no use from them and it isn't balanced, both in fun and execution, for some classes to have wasted stat distribution and others to not. Full stop.

The Respec stones are proof that this can be fixed/adjusted, and something that has been a problem for 20 years should be addressed.
But
It’s not been a problem

Except for the part where it has been a problem. So much so that apparently on Phoenix they've already updated the healers stats if the 2nd post in the thread is to be believed. I'm sorry you can't see why classes with useless stats is problematic. That's on you.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:33 PM by Ashenspire

Enyore wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:12 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 2:30 PM
The only people against this are the ones saying "it'll ruin balance!"

Except that all three realms would benefit from their casters and healers not getting useless stats and while some hybrids may make out better than others, those hybrids do suffer from a lack of groupability in the grand balance scheme as is.

There's no good argument against fixing bad game design. It's not just because "I want I want." I don't play bard, casters, friar, or healers.

At the end of the day, a core concept of the game that is "all classes have a primary, secondary, and tertiary stat that increases on level up," but some classes get no use from them and it isn't balanced, both in fun and execution, for some classes to have wasted stat distribution and others to not. Full stop.

The Respec stones are proof that this can be fixed/adjusted, and something that has been a problem for 20 years should be addressed.

Except it wouldn't fix anything, because the classes are not broken because of how it is now - it would just be a change for the sake of change and would just result in having to re-balance a lot of spells, styles and classes. You would just make some classes better that doesn't actually need it and thus creating a problem.

its just nerd-OCD thats all it is.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM AS IT IS NOW

Again, there wouldn't need to be a massive rebalancing as the changes would be equally represented by all three realms and equivalent across the class archetypes. There is a problem, now. It's not just nerd OCD. Opponents of the idea like to say "YOU CANT JUST ADD AUG X AND IT WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE" when the reality of the situation is there are classes that are penalized being behind 15-23 stat points to begin with and are already AUG -X behind. The argument is self defeating, as if one isn't okay, the other shouldn't be either.

Edit: and just to be clear, Aug Dex 3 or Aug Con 3 doesn't break a single class in this game, especially if their other realm counterparts also get it.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 6:31 PM by Sepplord

Still misrepresenting arguments, but at least you stopped insulting. The main argument isn't that the game will break, the main argument is "why change a background numbersmechanic if the classes affected don't need a buff?". There is a difference between those two

15-23statpoints would be aug4-aug5, again you are misrepresenting the facts (isn't that what trolls do? I thought you dont like trolls)

And if you believe that giving healer/druids/clerics or healers/bards/sorcs the same additional dexbonus doesn't change realmbalance because "all realms get the same durr" then i don't want to discuss anything about balance with you.
The HP also changed nothing since everyone got the same, right? Right? Oh...wait

Edit: Stats update, two new commenters, both against-change

Summary:
Pro-change 4
Anti-change 2->4
neutral 1
Troll/Jokers 2
How could that happen....i thought everyone but trolls love the idea Oo

Thu 13 Feb 2020 7:53 PM by opossum12

Totally just nerd OCD.

"Hey guys, there is this huge problem with the game!! To be honest, classes are relatively balanced and I can't identify a single underperforming class because of that problem, but trust me, it won't have any negative repercussion on the game dynamic because, as an OCD nerd, I know every single link between starting stats and effects on the end game."

I mean if you identified a real problem with a specific class that is caused by his wrong starting stats, your request would totally make sense.

As an example, the friar. The friar doesn't have dex as a rising stat, while staff damage and casting speed is based on dex. Pretty stupid right? Well you know what the Phx devs did? They bumped them up 2 DPS levels to the VW damage table to re-balance them and increase their melee damage. Wow, incredible, they adjusted the friar without messing with the starter stats.

That's what I've been trying to say and that you seem to fail to grab, is that parallel adjustments have been made to the classes in order to compensate, in part, for their lack of good starting and rising stats.

Do you backpedal these changes so that the friar before and after the stat change remains exactly the same? Or just don't do the change at all and just save some dev time?

I can't 100% predict every single effect this stat change will have on the meta, but you can? Man you've got the big brains.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 8:03 PM by Ashenspire

Never said it was a huge problem. Simply that it was a problem.

Friars and paladins were given an increase in 2 damage tablets to improve their groupability, as well as some other adjustments as well (2.5x for paladins, additional spells for friar). They're still some of the least sought after classes in their realms. 40-80 more weaponskill will not change this, but it's still the appropriate change to make as their other realm counterparts don't suffer from this stat disparity.

You don't have to be big brains to see that giving what is effectively Aug Con 3 to all the casters and Aug Dex 3 to all the healers in all 3 realms isn't going to break or imbalance anything other than some statistical outlier 1v1 fights, which the game isn't balanced around to begin with

Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:37 PM by Azuell

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 5:33 PM
Again, there wouldn't need to be a massive rebalancing as the changes would be equally represented by all three realms and equivalent across the class archetypes. There is a problem, now. It's not just nerd OCD. Opponents of the idea like to say "YOU CANT JUST ADD AUG X AND IT WONT MAKE A DIFFERENCE" when the reality of the situation is there are classes that are penalized being behind 15-23 stat points to begin with and are already AUG -X behind. The argument is self defeating, as if one isn't okay, the other shouldn't be either.

Edit: and just to be clear, Aug Dex 3 or Aug Con 3 doesn't break a single class in this game, especially if their other realm counterparts also get it.

Just FYI, I have only 2 50's here, a sorc and a bard. Just wanted to put a little perspective on where I'm coming from when I say this...

You sound dumb as hell.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:59 PM by Ashenspire

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:37 PM
"I don't know anything and I have nothing to add, but here's my opinion."

Neat. Thanks for the input.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:14 PM by Azuell

Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:59 PM
Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:37 PM
"I don't know anything and I have nothing to add, but here's my opinion."

Neat. Thanks for the input.

Aug 3 = 12 < 15 to 23

Well damn, guess I do know one thing and now you do too.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:38 PM by Pao

This change the game too much.

Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:57 PM by Ashenspire

Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 10:14 PM
Ashenspire wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:59 PM
Azuell wrote: ↑
Thu 13 Feb 2020 9:37 PM
"I don't know anything and I have nothing to add, but here's my opinion."

Neat. Thanks for the input.

Aug 3 = 12 < 15 to 23

Well damn, guess I do know one thing and now you do too.

Never said Aug Str 3 as the 23 is only strength for one class I mentioned. And 15 falls between Aug 3 and 4, so silly me not saying Aug 3.5. But sure, argue semantics, that always works.

Fri 14 Feb 2020 7:12 AM by Sepplord

Looks like the more you comment, the more people chime in and dislike the idea...

Fri 14 Feb 2020 1:04 PM by Harvest

Probably people that don't even understand what "balance" is or how stats works in this Game...

The same people that probably still think that making a Kobold Warrior or Lurikeen Hero make them Block and Parry 10% more lol.

As I said I would still prefer hearing something from the Phoenix Staff...
Not really about all that Balancing, but at least about Bards and Friars that are still the only two Classes with an unutilized Stats... The rest is a plus, what I care the most is about equity... The rest while is good is still a matter of how people are able to understand things and accept them, which seems that not many are able to... For how flamy that could sound, Math does not lie but opinions, biases and preference do.

Fri 14 Feb 2020 2:28 PM by Sepplord

ah yes, now that there are more people against it than in favor, the majority is just stupid and doesn't understand game balancing, while before being the minority was somehow a decent argument to bring up to discredit the anti-change stance

Loads of smartsounding phrases that don't apply though. Similar to political PR talk without substance.

"Math doesn't lie" Lol...here's some match for you, i hope you already know how to do math with variables:
Bards need for a buff = 0
Bardstrength1=classpower before change
Bardstrength2=classpower after change
Influenceofchange > 0
Bardstrength2 = Bardstrength1 + Influenceofchange
-> Bardstrength2 > Bardstrength1

The only opinion there is that Bards need for buff is 0. Feel free to give an argument why you believe bards need a buff. I expect silence.

"caring for equity" is a pretty catchy slogan though. I have to admit.
It succesfully disguises that you only care about a single instance of equity and want to sacrifice it in other areas, or is "balance" not equity too?

Fri 14 Feb 2020 3:03 PM by Ashenspire

All them words and you said one thing that actually rings true:

The majority is stupid and doesn't understand game balancing, proven by eloquent comments such as "This change the game too much." But hey, whatever you think you need to have people in your corner I guess?

You've made it clear you're terrified of giving bards 15 Dex like it's going to break the game balance. We get it. The sky would fall

Fri 14 Feb 2020 3:33 PM by rocketait

Bard, why not give them a stat that helps melee? Melee bards could use a buff and I don't think you would get much of an argument against that (people just don't like you messing with there cc classes).

Friar, they buffed the damage table (buffing melee but not healing which was a safe move) but I guess heal and melee on them is not amazing so people wouldn't be that upset about dex stat but I don't know if it's "needed".

Healers, hmm again it's a cc class or can be. And it's not like str is not useful if you are solo lvling (week argument I know, but any change here and you hurt solo lvling and help things that don't need helped so ya I think leave it be)

Then again how much will any of this effect things? If there are dex breakpoints on this server like on live then maybe a bit more then people think but less then most updates.. the real question is does it need to be done? Other then some confusion for new players on friars and bards who think they should put starting points or get gear to rase bad stats I say the "need" for the update is low, there are many more things the devs can be doing other then this (but I'm still for reducing confusion when the devs have time).

Fri 14 Feb 2020 4:11 PM by Harvest

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Feb 2020 2:28 PM
ah yes, now that there are more people against it than in favor, the majority is just stupid and doesn't understand game balancing, while before being the minority was somehow a decent argument to bring up to discredit the anti-change stance
Loads of smartsounding phrases that don't apply though. Similar to political PR talk without substance.

"Math doesn't lie" Lol...here's some match for you, i hope you already know how to do math with variables:
Bards need for a buff = 0
Bardstrength1=classpower before change
Bardstrength2=classpower after change
Influenceofchange > 0
Bardstrength2 = Bardstrength1 + Influenceofchange
-> Bardstrength2 > Bardstrength1

The only opinion there is that Bards need for buff is 0. Feel free to give an argument why you believe bards need a buff. I expect silence.

"caring for equity" is a pretty catchy slogan though. I have to admit.
It succesfully disguises that you only care about a single instance of equity and want to sacrifice it in other areas, or is "balance" not equity too?

"now that there are more people against it than in favor"... lol, just because two more people showed up? You are really taking count of it hoping it will stay that way

The only one trying to PR talking out of it without giving any solid argument here is you... Keep bringing up "Balance" without even explaining it, giving it a context or making clear example/comparison of why things are balanced that way (Thing that you CAN'T do in DAoC, you just like to think that everything is balanced and perfect) doesn't make what you say have more value, I would say the exact opposite.
Saying to someone "You are using politcal speech" when that "someone" spent lines and lines explaing in details the impact of a Stat Change (In the other Thread) and motivating it, while you only kept saying "It is not needed!!"/"It ruin the balance"/"It affect the game" like a broken vhs, doesn't seems so smart... But just my opinion.

People proposed to give Bard Strenght, you said that will ruin the balance (In the other Thread) saying that "He can spec in a Melee Skill! It will be imbalance to give him Strenght! No other Healer have both Strenght and Melee Skill Line"... 1) Bard do not spec in Blade even if they have it, the 99% of the build don't even get 10 Blade for the Side-Snare. 2) Warden is a Healer and have a Melee Skill Line and get Strenght. 3) Battle Bard is beyond horrible as a Spec (Nothing compared to similar Solo/Small Group Classes like indeed Warden/Minstrel/Skald), so you want to advocating for a Buff? Here we go, let's Buff the Battle-Bard spec (That nobody uses lol) giving Strenght instead of Empathy... Obviusly this is just for following your logic, Battle-Bard or not... Buff/Nerf or not... The bard should have 3 Stat that it utilized like every other Class. (I'm really looking forward for your "But like that the normal Bard spec will gain more Strenght!! That is a Buff!!!", so I can laugh at your face asking when a Bard with a minimum of brain will EVER attack in Melee)

Now let's speak about Friar... Friar is not picked in Group unless is a Guildy or out of pity because you can't find another better Class... So under your logic, since majority of the people do not want a Friar in Group (With reason, since it does not really give much compared to other Classes), it needs a Buff... Here we go, you wanted to hear that? I granted you what you asked for like 2 weeks.

Bard: Give him Strenght instead of Empathy so he could Melee better in case of Battle-Bard Spec (That no one use or will ever use even after this change), and you give him equity giving like every other Classes a Stat that he can use.

Friar: Was shit, is still shit after the Phoenix Buffs, he can still need something to improve it... Two birds with one stone since he was affected by a bad design since the beginning, so removing Strenght that is a Stat that do not utilize and giving him Dexterity or Quickness could make him a bit more strong and more desiderable (Not a chance, since a so little increase in a Stat give nothing... Even if is hard to understand for people like you that reason with placebo effect).

And I will repeat myself, buffs or not both Friars and Bards DESERVE that change... Is RIGHT to give them a Stat that they can use. BAD DESIGN IS STILL BAD DESIGN and if it can be fixed IT NEED TO BE FIXED.... Even more when it have almost zero impact (And if you are arguing that giving 20 Strenght to a Bard or 15 Dex or Quickness to a Friar have a huge impact, sorry to tell you but you are just delusional).

And as I said Math do not lie, you can hide behind your false "need of balance", but you don't clearly understand:
1) What balance is
2) How something can/could/would change the balance
3) You are probably too much biased or opinionated to see it... And yeah I'm ready for you to accusate me that I'm traing to lecture you or hearing a phrase like "Oh so when someone disagree with you is because have a bias", the classic answers that someone that do not have arguments use...

And thanks for the equation, really useful and a proof of your knonwledge about Stats and their impact on the Game.

Fri 14 Feb 2020 4:37 PM by gotwqqd

Give the Bard’s 15 dex, but amnesia is no longer instant

Mon 17 Feb 2020 5:00 PM by sylvynyr

Does anyone want to play Dark Age of Camelot? Or just some other made up game using the same graphics?

QoL changes are one thing, but changing fundamental foundational characteristics is another. The HP change was (IMO) bad enough (bane to some classes, boon to others) putting a larger emphasis on sustain over burst.

Changing base stats means upending all balance across the entire game, maybe small, maybe large, but stats are the foundation of balance for every character class.

Mon 17 Feb 2020 9:13 PM by gromet12

Such odd intentions to buff Friars....

Friars need help; so we should buff them.

Friars have been buffed numerous times coming into 1.65 (1.4x patch, added 1.5 spec, self buffs, and the monsters they are now); add they are a self buffing class (base and spec's that effect defense/dmg) they simply do not need another 15 dex on here. Who really cares they get 15 str, so they end up with 75 (along w/ the base str buff I bet you even cast it on yourself).

Changes on Phoneix that didn't have in 1.65 (which remember most classes your against got CRAP for QoL, the classes I play took QoL nerfs not buffs)

– Increased damage (Table increase from 19 to 21)
– The single target spec heal costs less mana and has a shorter cast time.
– Given a buff-line in the Rejuvenation specialization that procs group heals from melee attacks
– Cure Poison range 1500 -> 2000
– Cure Disease range 1500 -> 2000
– Level 34 staff style is now a back positional with a 60% snare for 15 seconds.
- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

I'm all for you getting 15dex if they put you back to 1.65 level and not the QoL buffs you already have.
-no rear snare, its a worthless additional anytime like a majority of the spec lines have @ 34
-Lower dmg table to same as warden (you mentioned them right, join them back in the low DPS area, and they didnt get shields here which is a shame)
-Reduce range on all your heals
-Increase the cast time on all your heals to 1.65 lvl
-Remove greater heals (you have an additional 15dex, you dont need greater heals, spam those specs which is the same as the other realms 2ndry healers)

The friar is so OP vs other 2ndry healers it is not even funny....Again adding the ability to put in good heat/matter/cold buffs into alb groups was difficult, here it shouldnt have been done considering the Alb caster group is one of the best debuffing trains around

Mon 17 Feb 2020 10:01 PM by Enyore

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Feb 2020 9:13 PM
Such odd intentions to buff Friars....

Friars need help; so we should buff them.

Friars have been buffed numerous times coming into 1.65 (1.4x patch, added 1.5 spec, self buffs, and the monsters they are now); add they are a self buffing class (base and spec's that effect defense/dmg) they simply do not need another 15 dex on here. Who really cares they get 15 str, so they end up with 75 (along w/ the base str buff I bet you even cast it on yourself).

Changes on Phoneix that didn't have in 1.65 (which remember most classes your against got CRAP for QoL, the classes I play took QoL nerfs not buffs)

– Increased damage (Table increase from 19 to 21)
– The single target spec heal costs less mana and has a shorter cast time.
– Given a buff-line in the Rejuvenation specialization that procs group heals from melee attacks
– Cure Poison range 1500 -> 2000
– Cure Disease range 1500 -> 2000
– Level 34 staff style is now a back positional with a 60% snare for 15 seconds.
- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

I'm all for you getting 15dex if they put you back to 1.65 level and not the QoL buffs you already have.
-no rear snare, its a worthless additional anytime like a majority of the spec lines have @ 34
-Lower dmg table to same as warden (you mentioned them right, join them back in the low DPS area, and they didnt get shields here which is a shame)
-Reduce range on all your heals
-Increase the cast time on all your heals to 1.65 lvl
-Remove greater heals (you have an additional 15dex, you dont need greater heals, spam those specs which is the same as the other realms 2ndry healers)

The friar is so OP vs other 2ndry healers it is not even funny....Again adding the ability to put in good heat/matter/cold buffs into alb groups was difficult, here it shouldnt have been done considering the Alb caster group is one of the best debuffing trains around

What he said.

Tue 18 Feb 2020 10:31 AM by Came

+1

Tue 18 Feb 2020 7:32 PM by Ashenspire

gromet12 wrote: ↑
Mon 17 Feb 2020 9:13 PM
Such odd intentions to buff Friars....

Friars need help; so we should buff them.

Friars have been buffed numerous times coming into 1.65 (1.4x patch, added 1.5 spec, self buffs, and the monsters they are now); add they are a self buffing class (base and spec's that effect defense/dmg) they simply do not need another 15 dex on here. Who really cares they get 15 str, so they end up with 75 (along w/ the base str buff I bet you even cast it on yourself).

Changes on Phoneix that didn't have in 1.65 (which remember most classes your against got CRAP for QoL, the classes I play took QoL nerfs not buffs)

– Increased damage (Table increase from 19 to 21)
– The single target spec heal costs less mana and has a shorter cast time.
– Given a buff-line in the Rejuvenation specialization that procs group heals from melee attacks
– Cure Poison range 1500 -> 2000
– Cure Disease range 1500 -> 2000
– Level 34 staff style is now a back positional with a 60% snare for 15 seconds.
- they will get access to the same greater heals as the cleric
- they will get access to the same nearsight heals as the cleric
- their current self buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal will become a group buff offensive melee proc that causes a group heal

I'm all for you getting 15dex if they put you back to 1.65 level and not the QoL buffs you already have.
-no rear snare, its a worthless additional anytime like a majority of the spec lines have @ 34
-Lower dmg table to same as warden (you mentioned them right, join them back in the low DPS area, and they didnt get shields here which is a shame)
-Reduce range on all your heals
-Increase the cast time on all your heals to 1.65 lvl
-Remove greater heals (you have an additional 15dex, you dont need greater heals, spam those specs which is the same as the other realms 2ndry healers)

The friar is so OP vs other 2ndry healers it is not even funny....Again adding the ability to put in good heat/matter/cold buffs into alb groups was difficult, here it shouldnt have been done considering the Alb caster group is one of the best debuffing trains around

So OP that they're still completely overlooked in groups. Clerics heal better. Every tank is better offensively. They're still not good.

Wed 19 Feb 2020 8:38 AM by Sepplord

they are beasts in smallmen, with their peels, heals and sturdiness