Please Revert Caster Nerfs

Started 4 Jan 2021
by Hector
in Suggestions
Overview of the issue at hand:
Casters have been progressively nerfed on Phoenix. This is indisputable as evidenced by HP buff on tanks, debuff nerf on casters, removal of bonus dps from lifetap spells, increase of AOM effectiveness, and increase of DI pool... all of these moves collectively decrease damage/burst from casters. The fundamental problem when looking at casters vs tanks in terms of damage differential is that yes casters can hit harder if they are free nuking but if they are interrupted they can't do much, whereas tanks can continue to put out damage while simultaneously locking down said casters. Because of this, playing casters requires effort, skill, and precision to get free and nuke. This is why in all games -- not just DAoC -- caster damage is better. Casters do more damage and have more utility but can be shut down and killed quickly. This is part of the game and its why skill is required to optimally play casters.

Post-change environment for casters
Now that the issue has been established, let's take a look at what the recent environment has been like for casters. I will use myself as an example. I am a rank7 sorc with WP5 and MOM5. Spec'd 40 body. If I am nuking a target with some resist and secondary resist without a debuff, I am hitting for somewhere between 160-220 damage. On a 3,000 hp tank with healers ready to use DI/instas, this is unquestionably terrible damage (and damage that can be easily mitigated by average interrupt/support/tank play). How on earth is this balanced when all a tank has to do is slap me to stop that from happening? Please see the below screenshot for a recent fight where I was barely nuking a tank and had to put an entire power bar into him to get him just to 50%.


In 8v8 fights where I am lucky to be nuking a debuffed target, I am hitting for around 340 damage. Still, even with the debuff and even with good positioning, on a 3k HP tank who has pots/legion/instas from his support, I am surely not going to get a kill unless he is terribly out of position.

Suggestion and closing thoughts
Please reconsider some of these nerfs. The balance has swung in the direction of the tank and it's to the point where it isn't even worth playing casters anymore if you aren't high rank enough to afford max possible damage RAs. Thank you for listening
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:43 PM by Laec
AMEN
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:46 PM by gotwqqd
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
Overview of the issue at hand:
Casters have been progressively nerfed on Phoenix. This is indisputable as evidenced by HP buff on tanks, debuff nerf on casters, removal of bonus dps from lifetap spells, increase of AOM effectiveness, and increase of DI pool... all of these moves collectively decrease damage/burst from casters. The fundamental problem when looking at casters vs tanks in terms of damage differential is that yes casters can hit harder if they are free nuking but if they are interrupted they can't do much, whereas tanks can continue to put out damage while simultaneously locking down said casters. Because of this, playing casters requires effort, skill, and precision to get free and nuke. This is why in all games -- not just DAoC -- caster damage is better. Casters do more damage and have more utility but can be shut down and killed quickly. This is part of the game and its why skill is required to optimally play casters.

Post-change environment for casters
Now that the issue has been established, let's take a look at what the recent environment has been like for casters. I will use myself as an example. I am a rank7 sorc with WP5 and MOM5. Spec'd 40 body. If I am nuking a target with some resist and secondary resist without a debuff, I am hitting for somewhere between 160-220 damage. On a 3,000 hp tank with healers ready to use DI/instas, this is unquestionably terrible damage (and damage that can be easily mitigated by average interrupt/support/tank play). How on earth is this balanced when all a tank has to do is slap me to stop that from happening? Please see the below screenshot for a recent fight where I was barely nuking a tank and had to put an entire power bar into him to get him just to 50%.


In 8v8 fights where I am lucky to be nuking a debuffed target, I am hitting for around 340 damage. Still, even with the debuff and even with good positioning, on a 3k HP tank who has pots/legion/instas from his support, I am surely not going to get a kill unless he is terribly out of position.

Suggestion and closing thoughts
Please reconsider some of these nerfs. The balance has swung in the direction of the tank and it's to the point where it isn't even worth playing casters anymore if you aren't high rank enough to afford max possible damage RAs. Thank you for listening
Ummmm, I think they accomplished what they set out to do
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM by skipari
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:56 PM by Hector
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.

Even if we use your conservative 364 as an example, should a caster be nuking you for roughly 11-15% of your HP per cast when debuffed? That’s so low compared to the percentage of a casters HP lost to melee. This is the exact imbalance I’m talking about unfortunately
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:59 PM by gotwqqd
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:56 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.

Even if we use your conservative 364 as an example, should a caster be nuking you for roughly 11-15% of your HP per cast when debuffed? That’s so low compared to the percentage of a casters HP lost to melee. This is the exact imbalance I’m talking about unfortunately
Range?
CC or multiple CC?
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:02 PM by Hector
What do you mean?
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:19 PM by skipari
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:56 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.

Even if we use your conservative 364 as an example, should a caster be nuking you for roughly 11-15% of your HP per cast when debuffed? That’s so low compared to the percentage of a casters HP lost to melee. This is the exact imbalance I’m talking about unfortunately

Well, melee damage got from start reduced, defensive procs are far stronger then live, guard penetration is halfed etc. Also its fairly easy to snare off targets. Not even to mention that melees actually have to commit unlike casters. So yeah even with interrupt i would say its a bit more even now.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:25 PM by Hector
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:19 PM
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:56 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.

Even if we use your conservative 364 as an example, should a caster be nuking you for roughly 11-15% of your HP per cast when debuffed? That’s so low compared to the percentage of a casters HP lost to melee. This is the exact imbalance I’m talking about unfortunately

Well, melee damage got from start reduced, defensive procs are far stronger then live, guard penetration is halfed etc. Also its fairly easy to snare off targets. Not even to mention that melees actually have to commit unlike casters. So yeah even with interrupt i would say its a bit more even now.

You can’t compare Phoenix to live because casters don’t have cast speed bonus.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:33 PM by opossum12
It's a really fine line to walk. You bump caster dps too high and everybody rolls casters, nerf it too much and tanks are easy peezy.

What's the win-rate of hybrid/caster comps vs tankers, considering equal skill and rank? Not taking into account what people consider easy/hard to play. If it's close to 50/50, than it feels like balance was achieved. If tanks just faceroll hybrid comps, then some changes might be needed.

In terms of AoM9 being 30%, that should be a heavy tank only change. Light tanks shouldn't have access to 30% secondary resists with their dps advantage over a heavy. Being able to run light tanks with 45% ish primary resists with 30% secondary resists, on top of Baod, EM, etc, is wrong.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:34 PM by skipari
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:25 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:19 PM
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:56 PM
skipari wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:48 PM
That screenshot shows a AOM9 zerker, with at least yellow resists/temp. And as you say without a debuff. So thats at least 34 points of RA's invested against the caster meta.

aom9 on offtanks is more a result of nearly all alb groups running around with 4-5 body debuff casters, the recent nerf hides that a bit, but while those setups are easy to play and have not a lot of diminishing returns this won't be change and is imho a fair counter.

--
Regarding your numbers, with the screenshot provided you should be able to hit an target without aom and debuff (assuming 40% item/buff resist) for around 240, if its 40% debuffed for approx 364 and if its debuffed and has aom9 still for 255ish.

Even if we use your conservative 364 as an example, should a caster be nuking you for roughly 11-15% of your HP per cast when debuffed? That’s so low compared to the percentage of a casters HP lost to melee. This is the exact imbalance I’m talking about unfortunately

Well, melee damage got from start reduced, defensive procs are far stronger then live, guard penetration is halfed etc. Also its fairly easy to snare off targets. Not even to mention that melees actually have to commit unlike casters. So yeah even with interrupt i would say its a bit more even now.

You can’t compare Phoenix to live because casters don’t have cast speed bonus.

But i can compare phoenix to 1.65 and there all the points are still valid. I don't want that melees can one/twoshot caster here as in 1.65, that would be the other extreme. But here we have the situation that defensive procs/hp got buffed while melee damage/defense penetration got nerfed. The magical stuff in comparison got until recently barely touched.

Most important is probably still that speccing aom9 is more a result of the meta, if those alb 4-5 caster groups were the exception and not the standard then people would go into dmg ra's or other things and the damage would probably be fine again for you as single caster.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:35 PM by Hector
I agree that AOM on BM Savage etc has been outrageous and they have free reign to do whatever they want without punishment so long as their healers have instas up
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:46 PM by opossum12
I know we don't want to get too much from Live into Phoenix, but the whole strat is to separate tank dps from their support.

Maybe looking at the implementation of bolt range roots on sorc/ani/RM?
Mon 4 Jan 2021 2:56 PM by Sepplord
What i miss in the initial statement is the Differentiation between how range and utility plays into the comparison
If 4caster assist in you, that can happen suddenly and without telegraphing that
When a melee train wants to do that to a caster they have to Run over to their target, giving both the target and healers more reaction time

Balancing the correct ratios is fickle, as it can swing either way quite fast but as others mentioned, Tanks aren't purchasing AoM9 because casters are weak and rarely seen in RvR-groups
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:03 PM by Hector
Tanks are getting AOM9 because they know they can kamikaze now without repercussion given they already have a buffed HP pool and know their healers have toys up. Good support play makes good caster play obsolete. Average tank play can still persevere through a debuff assist train because you just W and stick the caster. I would implore people to seek the feedback of people on the player council who play 8v8 to discuss nuances of tank vs caster balance. I haven't met anybody yet who plays in that environment (even those that play tank groups currently) who agreed that all of these caster nerfs were warranted.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:08 PM by ExcretusMaximus
You live in an echo chamber, Hector, always have.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:15 PM by DJ2000
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
I am a rank7 sorc with WP5 and MOM5. Spec'd 40 body.
WP5 (15) and MoM5 (15) = 4L0 (30) plenty left for Purge/Ichor/Mcl/MoC/etc.
Det9 (22) and AoM9 (34) = 6L6 (56) no purge or IP or any other RA

Maybe putting some points into PD (instead of MOM/WP maybe?), just like the tank has put some into AoM?

Is it maybe the longer "TTK" since the recent changes?
What is more of an issue, the changes to AoM or the Debuff-nerf?

Why do you think it is important for all Realms to have a functioning Tank/Hybrid setup to deal with enemy Tanks?
Or do you just want to be able to nuke a Tank down, when not even overextended, even with Healers with pots/legion/instas in the back?
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 1:06 PM
Still, even with the debuff and even with good positioning, on a 3k HP tank who has pots/legion/instas from his support, I am surely not going to get a kill unless he is terribly out of position.
Why Target the Tank anyway? Because it was possible the whole last year?


Did these changes shift the meta slightly towards Tanks? Yes.
Is the Server now Tank Meta? No.
Are more changes planned for Tanks/Mages? Yes.

Wait till all the changes are in.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:16 PM by Hector
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:08 PM
You live in an echo chamber, Hector, always have.

I know you have a hard time hearing it but there are play styles affected by casters being nerfed so continuously . So yes I will keep pushing for attention to the issue.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:25 PM by Sepplord
Hector wrote:
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:03 PM
Average tank play can still persevere through a debuff assist train because you just W and stick the caster

How do you stick casters on 1500range?
Are you saying casters VS tanks should be balanced around the scenario of engagements starting in melee range?

yeah, i am being a bit facetious and know that isn't exactly what you are trying to say...but that's the argument that keeps being used in this thread
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:32 PM by Valaraukar
Omg after a year or so of total OP by the caster meta a few days aftet a "nerf" seem enough to say "this is a tankly server!"
Are you even serious? You had months with casters doing what they wanted, debuffing and nuking at will while kiting for ages and NOW, that things may be a little more even for everyone, you come here whining that your sorc (still one of the most OP class) can do "only" 300ish dmg each cast? I really don't have words....
Mon 4 Jan 2021 3:47 PM by opossum12
The point isn't to be happy that casters are nerfed, but just to make sure that balanced has been achieved with the recent nerfs.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 9:45 PM by Satayspurche
<3 aom and det 9

btw.. i am the only who dont see a screenshot from a aom9 zerk?? i only see a sitting sorc..

if u want a reason to cry... i hope zerk will become charge the only lighttank without slam ore annytimer(side) stun.
Mon 4 Jan 2021 11:43 PM by Noashakra
Alb caster needed a nerf, they had damages and pets, but they go part of their damage back. Hib got nothing of value. We tried the energy assist, it's not worth the points and sacrifices. It was a straight nerf for a comp that didn't need one.
Tue 5 Jan 2021 9:48 AM by byron
A zerker (let take him as example) to have : det9, aom9 and purge 3 needs to be 8L1... and he needs to be 8L1 just to have a little more survivability so no RAs to increase the damage... why don't you post a log where a zerk 4L0/5L0 hits you ? The damage will be lower than yours against that zerk with Aom9 and yellow resist. Then a Zerk needs to reach you and be able to stay stick to you to do damage but you (as an Alb caster group) have a lot of CCs, pets (that can snare or stun) and a peeler that slam you and chain snare.
You should see the situation on both sides, then with an alb caster train with debuff what changed ? Than maybe now you need 1 or 2 casts more to kill a Zerk with 3000hp so no big difference.

PS: And you have perma sprint thanks to a potion that cost few golds so you can avoid to have a class that gives end regen to you. The result ? You have 1 more damage dealer in your group without any down side.
Tue 5 Jan 2021 11:12 AM by Noashakra
two cast more is huge with ID / IH / etc
The alb body train needed a nerf though, it was too stong.
Tue 5 Jan 2021 2:28 PM by Roto23
Casters got what they deserved. Easy mode for over 2 years
Tue 5 Jan 2021 4:24 PM by opossum12
Roto23 wrote:
Tue 5 Jan 2021 2:28 PM
Casters got what they deserved. Easy mode for over 2 years

That is such an incredibly stupid answer.

The goal isn't to nerf because you're pissed. The goal is to reach the good balance.
Tue 5 Jan 2021 5:04 PM by Magesty
This post seems to be much less focused on complaining about the nerfs specifically and more about the nature of casters in DAoC. Let's be honest, the nerfs were fairly minimal. If there is anything to truly complain about in that patch, it is bards receiving a root.

I imagine part of the dev's goal with slightly nerfing resist debuffs and altering lifetap mechanics was to put elementalists in a better position to step into the caster dps role instead of having the two caster classes that are already overstuffed with utility double dipping without having to really commit spec points.

As with any PvP game that is actively balanced there will be an ebb and flow to the power levels of different roles, and if you are playing a class that can "do it all" it is a reasonable expectation that you will see your power level reduced.
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