Plans to Improve Charge - Phoenix Freeshard

I started this thread in the Suggestions tab; however, it hasn't received any feedback from the Devs.

Essentially the question I'm looking into is whether or not Charge will receive a slight speed increase.

Currently it's primary function is to move at sprint speed without the cost of endurance (which is already obtainable with LW1, Tireless1 and an endo pot).

What my suggestion was, in the other thread, was to slightly increase the speed bonus of charge while retaining the OF features of the ability (I.E., No CC immunity while active).

I suggested a 10-15% speed increase (maybe 15%-20% in reality) in order to give the light tank an opportunity to "charge" down an opponent that is/was in combat and is sprinting away.

I proposed that the speed bonus to charge should allow the charging tank to close the distance between themselves and an enemy, considering both the tank and the enemy are both sprinting. The speed bonus value should not be great enough to close the distance on an enemy that is not in combat and/or is moving with a speed spell/buff active.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:00 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Would encourage additional comments and feedback regarding the current state of Charge in regards to Blademasters, Mercenaries and Berserkers as well as reasonable improvements on the ability!

I am very enthusiastic about improving the Charge ability and would like some additional insight!

Thu 28 Feb 2019 3:08 PM by caridry

Its OG charge, it sucked and its why it was changed. Some classes are keeping later changes i.e. nearsight on earth wiz, some are not. Not sure what warrants a change.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 4:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

True, but what is your opinion in increasing the speed bonus of Charge.

I think it'd be too drastic of a change to implement Charge in it's current function on Live (CC immunity for duration).

That is why I am proposing keeping that function of Charge as is, while increasing the speed bonus it applies.

Currently the only benefit Charge gives is endurance-less sprint for it's duration, which is already accounted for by LW1, Tireless1 and endo pot.

It would be a more beneficial (yet not overpowered ability) if the speed bonus from Charge was increased.

For example, if I receive a nuke from a caster and began chasing that caster and they are 15-20 units in-front of me. If we both have permanent sprint (which I'd argue the majority of level 50 FZ toons have) there is no possible way for me to close that distance, whether I use charge or not. Charge serves absolutely no function.

If however the speed bonus were to be increased, I'd have an opportunity to close the gap on the enemy and re-engage them in melee combat.

I also reason that the speed bonus shouldn't be increased to the point that it over compensates for base caster speed. I.E. if I do not manage to get within melee combat range prior to the caster leaving combat and regaining speed (if applicable) the bonus shouldn't be faster then that speed value.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 4:58 PM by Expfighter

well if charge serves no purpose as you say, then just get rid of it!

that simple

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:04 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Honestly it wouldn't be noticeable.

I'd prefer more constructive, well thought out comments but your point is true.

Currently charge can be wiped from the three light tanks and it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

Thus, I'd also like a developers input into whether charge should be tweaked to make it useful, or simply remove it as a pointless ability.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:09 PM by Roto23

As a healer, I'm opposed to improving charge. There are too many anti CC tools in the game already.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:19 PM by Afuldan

All of the NNF RA’s are balanced around ML and CL abilities and ToA bonuses stacked on top of the RA system, the RR5 and specific class procs hidden in weaponlines.

No Zephyr = no counter to NNF Charge.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:19 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Roto23 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:09 PM
As a healer, I'm opposed to improving charge. There are too many anti CC tools in the game already.

Oh boy,

Please, please, please, please, please, read everything completely.

I explicitly state "Do Not Implement the CC Immunity Function....Only a Speed Increase".

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:21 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
All of the NNF RA’s are balanced around ML and CL abilities and ToA bonuses stacked on top of the RA system, the RR5 and specific class procs hidden in weaponlines.

No Zephyr = no counter to NNF Charge.

I am not asking for NNF Charge. I explicitly state I do not want charge to receive the CC immunity as I, who mains as a Mercenary, believe it would be too powerful.

I am simply requesting a speed increase to the current Charge ability.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:26 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Just because I don't believe everyone is aware, a quick educational lesson on Phoenix patch 1.165:

Charge is currently earned, automatically by the three main Light Tanks of each realm at Level 40.

The Charge that is earned at level 40 functions in it's most original inception, I.E., it allows the light tank to move at sprint speed without consuming endurance. It DOES NOT, I REPEAT, DOES NOT, make the tank immune to CC (this was added in later, updated versions of charge).

Currently, the only purpose charge serves, is to move at sprint speed without using endurance. This is already accounted for with having access to permanent sprint, primarily in the form of Long Wind 1, Tireless 1 and an endurance pot.

Due to how easy it is to obtain permanent sprint, I proposed increasing the speed value of Charge, without changing the No CC Immunity feature, to give the light tank the ability to close the distance among them and an opponent moving at sprint speed.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:50 PM by defiasbandit

Add new Charge. Make MoC 100%.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 6:49 PM by Amp_Phetamine

defiasbandit wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:50 PM
Add new Charge. Make MoC 100%.

No thread hijacking please. I appreciate you being in agreement with altering charge; however, MoC has it's own thread and doesn't belong here

.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 7:05 PM by Kralin

I am for an improvement to charge rather than removing it. Light tanks don't have many fun active RAs or abilities anyway and having charge work better with increased speed is a good idea. It does not need the cc-immunity part as you said.

Thu 28 Feb 2019 10:35 PM by Sepplord

I dont think lighttanks are too weak currently, so why would they need a buff?

Your also Keep stressig the point that lw1/tireless/endpot already take care of permasprint, completely disregarding that it doesnt let you reg endu while chasing someone.

If you as lighttank dont use charge, my warrior would gladly take it

Fri 1 Mar 2019 2:21 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 10:35 PM
I dont think lighttanks are too weak currently, so why would they need a buff?

Your also Keep stressig the point that lw1/tireless/endpot already take care of permasprint, completely disregarding that it doesnt let you reg endu while chasing someone.

If you as lighttank dont use charge, my warrior would gladly take it

I never said Light Tanks were under performing nor needed a buff. This is a discussion in how to make Charge slightly more useful.

So, essentially what you're saying is I can take the 15s of endurance-less sprint speed and regain my endurance that may have been lost from initial contact with the enemy?

That is true but that really doesn't resolve the problem I stated. If I am chasing an enemy that also has perma sprint and I have perma sprint and we both move in the same direction at the same time (the enemy running away from me) there is no capability of me closing that distance gap. Sure I could activate charge and for 15s I'll continue to move at the same exact speed and regenerate what endurance I may have lost, fantastic, now I'm still in the exact same scenario with potentially more endurance.

Also, simply suggesting that a Heavy Tank class would be willing to accept a Light Tank ability does not suddenly make the ability more prominent or effective, and has nothing to do with the addressed proposed change as well. Stay on topic please

.

Charge, in it's version on Live DAoC, is too powerful. I'm not asking for the Live version of charge, most of you weren't aware of that. I want the counter to charge to remain, if I screw up and use it and get mezzed, well that's what happens. Since their are counters to the Old Frontiers version of charge, and the Developers have shown they're willing to tweak abilities, I strongly argue (within reason) that slightly increasing the speed bonus attached to charge would make it a more appropriate and beneficial ability to utilize.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:36 PM by chryso

There are already too many things that extend endurance. If everyone already has all the endo they need all the time then there is no point in even having an endo bar.

Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:57 PM by Amp_Phetamine

chryso wrote: ↑
Fri 1 Mar 2019 4:36 PM
There are already too many things that extend endurance. If everyone already has all the endo they need all the time then there is no point in even having an endo bar.

Quite true, which is primarily the basis for my suggestion to slightly increase the speed value associated with Charge. As it is quite easy to obtain permanent sprint, the current functionality of charge is mediocre at best. A slight increase in speed for the duration would make the ability more practical in use.

Sat 2 Mar 2019 10:51 AM by Sepplord

You say light tanks dont Need a buff but improving charge would be a buff...

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:45 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 10:51 AM
You say light tanks dont Need a buff but improving charge would be a buff...

To-ma-to ; Tom-a-to
Improving charge would make the ability useful to use. Currently it's hardly even worth putting onto a quick-bar.

If you believe that improving the speed bonus of charge would be over powered then I'd be glad to listen to your reasoning.

Going through battles of syntax is pointless.

I personally believe LT's are in a really good spot at the moment. There are plenty of counters to them and they do quite well in DPS output.

The only thing I'm suggesting is if charge is going to stay in it's current form then consider slightly increasing the speed bonus attached to it.

I've already listed my reasoning why; that can be re-viewed in my earlier posts.

Curious what @Ashok thinks about this proposal!

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:48 PM by Afuldan

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:45 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 10:51 AM
You say light tanks dont Need a buff but improving charge would be a buff...

To-ma-to ; Tom-a-to
Improving charge would make the ability useful to use. Currently it's hardly even worth putting onto a quick-bar.

If you believe that improving the speed bonus of charge would be over powered then I'd be glad to listen to your reasoning.

Going through battles of syntax is pointless.

I personally believe LT's are in a really good spot at the moment. There are plenty of counters to them and they do quite well in DPS output.

The only thing I'm suggesting is if charge is going to stay in it's current form then consider slightly increasing the speed bonus attached to it.

I've already listed my reasoning why; that can be re-viewed in my earlier posts.

I for one am tired of seeing SoS’d on inc BM assist trains come at me, but Charge does the same thing, or it used to.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:56 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:48 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:45 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sat 2 Mar 2019 10:51 AM
You say light tanks dont Need a buff but improving charge would be a buff...

To-ma-to ; Tom-a-to
Improving charge would make the ability useful to use. Currently it's hardly even worth putting onto a quick-bar.

If you believe that improving the speed bonus of charge would be over powered then I'd be glad to listen to your reasoning.

Going through battles of syntax is pointless.

I personally believe LT's are in a really good spot at the moment. There are plenty of counters to them and they do quite well in DPS output.

The only thing I'm suggesting is if charge is going to stay in it's current form then consider slightly increasing the speed bonus attached to it.

I've already listed my reasoning why; that can be re-viewed in my earlier posts.

I for one am tired of seeing SoS’d on inc BM assist trains come at me, but Charge does the same thing, or it used to.

Incorrect

Charge (as it currently functions on Live) makes the LT immune to all forms of CC for it's duration.

Charge on Phoenix simply allows the LT to move at sprint speed without using endurance. Charge does not make the LT immune to CC.

For that reason, along with the ease and availability of perma-sprint. I propose slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:03 PM by Afuldan

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:56 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:48 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:45 PM
To-ma-to ; Tom-a-to
Improving charge would make the ability useful to use. Currently it's hardly even worth putting onto a quick-bar.

If you believe that improving the speed bonus of charge would be over powered then I'd be glad to listen to your reasoning.

Going through battles of syntax is pointless.

I personally believe LT's are in a really good spot at the moment. There are plenty of counters to them and they do quite well in DPS output.

The only thing I'm suggesting is if charge is going to stay in it's current form then consider slightly increasing the speed bonus attached to it.

I've already listed my reasoning why; that can be re-viewed in my earlier posts.

I for one am tired of seeing SoS’d on inc BM assist trains come at me, but Charge does the same thing, or it used to.

Incorrect

Charge (as it currently functions on Live) makes the LT immune to all forms of CC for it's duration.

Charge on Phoenix simply allows the LT to move at sprint speed without using endurance. Charge does not make the LT immune to CC.

For that reason, along with the ease and availability of perma-sprint. I propose slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge.

Well live = used to for me so thats my bad.

But yeah. Make it more of something a LT can pop to try and make it back to collapse a disruptor or get out of an overextension.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Afuldan wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 4:03 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:56 PM
Afuldan wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 3:48 PM
I for one am tired of seeing SoS’d on inc BM assist trains come at me, but Charge does the same thing, or it used to.

Incorrect

Charge (as it currently functions on Live) makes the LT immune to all forms of CC for it's duration.

Charge on Phoenix simply allows the LT to move at sprint speed without using endurance. Charge does not make the LT immune to CC.

For that reason, along with the ease and availability of perma-sprint. I propose slightly increasing the speed bonus of charge.

Well live = used to for me so thats my bad.

But yeah. Make it more of something a LT can pop to try and make it back to collapse a disruptor or get out of an overextension.

Ah, I got ya.

That's kind of what my thinking is in this proposal.

If you have perma-sprint/endo-regen active, that's pretty much like having charge, that's all charge does.

I want to keep the CC Immunity part of it as is. If the ability were to be given an appropriate speed bonus, then the tank should still be capable of being CC'd. That's the point of having balanced abilities.

But as Charge currently functions it's impossible to close a small distance between yourself and your target; for that reason I believe charge should have the speed value increased.

Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:05 PM by Chimaera

There are no current plans to improve charge. This is essentially a suggestion thread, so I have moved it accordingly.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 2:32 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Chimaera wrote: ↑
Mon 4 Mar 2019 5:05 PM
There are no current plans to improve charge. This is essentially a suggestion thread, so I have moved it accordingly.

Thank's Chimaera, I had originally made a suggestions thread but hadn't received any feedback. Also, I understand that currently their are no plans to improve charge but what is the general consensus regarding the idea proposed?

Generally from what I've subjectively gathered, most comment's have no issues with improving the speed bonus of charge; just not implementing the CC immunity which I agree with.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:33 PM by Brokenstring

To me the problem is everyone always having a near full endurance bar, not charge. Every character in existence shouldn't be able to permanently sprint like they can here. This was a huge boost to tanks already, never ever being out of endurance. They can kite forever, and they can use their styles forever here.

As an earlier poster said, there really doesn't even need to be an endurance bar on Phoenix the way the settings are here.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:50 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Brokenstring wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:33 PM
To me the problem is everyone always having a near full endurance bar, not charge. Every character in existence shouldn't be able to permanently sprint like they can here. This was a huge boost to tanks already, never ever being out of endurance. They can kite forever, and they can use their styles forever here.

As an earlier poster said, there really doesn't even need to be an endurance bar on Phoenix the way the settings are here.

Actually that is very true. If perma-sprint wasn't so easily accessible; how Charge currently functions would be more viable.

The main slight that caused me to address this was a scenario in which I was running solo in the FZ. I happened across a caster that managed to nuke once and began kiting. We both had permanent sprint so essentially I just ran behind him, maybe 20 units out of combat range, for nearly 3-4 minutes. This made me ponder the current uselessness of charge. Neither of us had any issue with endurance; however, had neither of us had access to perma-sprint I very easily would've been able to capitalize on the moment he ran out of endo and utilized charge to close the distance.

That being said their are two options. Either effectively reduce the capability of earning perma-sprint (highly unfavorable as every class in the game obtains this feature first) or give a slight speed increase to charge (this would only effect the 3 LT's for the duration that charge is active and still can be countered).

Hence I believe that increasing the speed bonus of charge is the simplest method to make charge useful in this meta.

I understand that the Dev's have much larger scale tasks to prioritize but increasing the speed value in the coding for charge shouldn't take much time at all.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:54 PM by Brokenstring

I understand this is a thread about charge, but my point fixes charge as well as makes tanks more like they ought to be. Able to run out of endo like a caster can run out of power.

Basically a tank can use their 'casts' forever on this server, or kite away forever. This seems wrong. Anyway, my point probably deserves its own thread, and I don't want to derail yours, so I'll bow out.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:05 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Brokenstring wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 4:54 PM
I understand this is a thread about charge, but my point fixes charge as well as makes tanks more like they ought to be. Able to run out of endo like a caster can run out of power.

Basically a tank can use their 'casts' forever on this server, or kite away forever. This seems wrong. Anyway, my point probably deserves its own thread, and I don't want to derail yours, so I'll bow out.

Your ideology is correct. If perma-sprint/endo-regen wasn't as easily accessible as it currently is then Charge, how it currently is, would be fine. Appreciate your input and opinion.

Unfortunately there is no way I can see any changes in the way endurance regeneration currently functions, hence why I believe increasing the speed value of Charge to be a very practical implementation and a suggestion the Dev's should consider as very reasonable as well.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:46 PM by Yint

Full tank here... That charge ability you think is so worthless, I'd pay 5 RA points for it just to have some extra endurance. Use it wisely for endo regen while sprinting, it is a blessing. Us full tanks will take it if you dont want it.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 8:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Yint wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 7:46 PM
Full tank here... That charge ability you think is so worthless, I'd pay 5 RA points for it just to have some extra endurance. Use it wisely for endo regen while sprinting, it is a blessing. Us full tanks will take it if you dont want it.

How many times do I have to repeat this: Just because a different arch-type believes that an ability would be more beneficial to them does not suddenly, nor spontaneously, make the abilities deficiencies void.

Just because you say "Hey, I would really like that ability on my Heavy Tank", does not address nor help facilitate any meaningful conversation about how the ability currently functions and ways to improve it.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:04 PM by Isavyr

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:05 PM
If perma-sprint/endo-regen wasn't as easily accessible ... then Charge would be fine.

Charge is a significant as-is. Sprinting + styling on a target will make most characters go OOE, because sprinting is 5 endo/s. Charge nullifies that, which is a big boost for light-tanks.

There are already many gap-closers that most players can close the gap on a caster alone, or with support from their teammate, without much trouble. Furthermore, most light-tanks have snares, making it very hard to get the tank off the caster. Incidentally I feel there is only one light-tank without reliable snares, which hurts their damage uptime, and you just happen to play it--the mercenary. Therefore I suspect your problem isn't related to charge, but mercenary.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:23 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:04 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 5:05 PM
If perma-sprint/endo-regen wasn't as easily accessible ... then Charge would be fine.

Charge is a significant as-is. Sprinting + styling on a target will make most characters go OOE, because sprinting is 5 endo/s. Charge nullifies that, which is a big boost for light-tanks.

There are already many gap-closers that most players can close the gap on a caster alone, or with support from their teammate, without much trouble. Furthermore, most light-tanks have snares, making it very hard to get the tank off the caster. Incidentally I feel there is only one light-tank without reliable snares, which hurts their damage uptime, and you just happen to play it--the mercenary. Therefore I suspect your problem isn't related to charge, but mercenary.

That's a unique view point that I hadn't considered. I appreciate you sharing your input.

In my opinion, Charge is supposed to be a means to close the gap on fleeing opponents. Charge doesn't do that as the speed factor is the exact same as running at sprint speed. Albeit true that Charging while styling on a moving opponent will save on endurance, due to LW1, Tireless1 and endo regen I don't find myself hurting for endurance; especially if I have a paladin with me.

It is the factor that all non-speed classes have the capability of running continually in sprint due to perma-sprint availability and Charge would be an ideal arch-type specific ability to aid the light tank in closing the distance on an opponent if it were to have a slight speed increase.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:40 PM by cuuchulain79

Mythic implementing OF charge if everybody had perma sprint would have only made sense in this context:

It was done on April 1st.

I really think something should be done to current charge here.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:43 PM by jg777

I agreed Charge needs to be adjusted, and likewise agree with an increased speed boost with no immunity added. This allows charge to be useful in the context of most having endless endurance to sprint, allowing the charging tanks to close-and track down- kiting enemies during the charge duration.

Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:40 PM by Isavyr

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
It is the factor that all non-speed classes have the capability of running continually in sprint due to perma-sprint availability and Charge would be an ideal arch-type specific ability to aid the light tank in closing the distance on an opponent if it were to have a slight speed increase.

It's unnecessary. If we took into account all the unnecessary things we could add into this game, we would be in trouble. This is a team oriented game--if you cannot do something yourself, use a teammate to do it. This buff would completely throw off the balance with melee.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:11 AM by Sepplord

melees never running out of endu, or "the server not needing an endurance bar in the current state" are utter **** and plain wrong...
Anyone making such a claim loses all credibility in my eyes.

Charge might suck, and feel bad, but making up arguments to help your position does the opposite of that...it undermines it

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:14 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 10:40 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Tue 5 Mar 2019 9:23 PM
It is the factor that all non-speed classes have the capability of running continually in sprint due to perma-sprint availability and Charge would be an ideal arch-type specific ability to aid the light tank in closing the distance on an opponent if it were to have a slight speed increase.

It's unnecessary. If we took into account all the unnecessary things we could add into this game, we would be in trouble. This is a team oriented game--if you cannot do something yourself, use a teammate to do it. This buff would completely throw off the balance with melee.

That's a generalized blanket statement Isavyr and you make no valid points other than an attempt to state that you disagree with me.

How on Earth would slightly increasing the speed bonus on a 15s, 3min RUT ability "Completely throw off the balance with melee"?

Generalized statements like yours, with no validity to support them, are more detrimental than poor ideas being suggested.

I very thoroughly detailed how charge could receive a slight speed boost to make it a more useful ability (for the three classes in the game that earn it; still don't understand how the disruption to melee balance comes into play) without making it an overpowered ability.

Primarily charge would receive a 10-20% speed boost from it's current value (obviously this could be adjusted with a few simple tests).

This would give light tanks the ability to close in on an opponent that does not have caster/bard speed active

This would NOT allow light tanks to close distance on an enemy that is running with speed 6

The light tank could still be rooted, snared, mezzed and stunned if they poorly utilize the ability

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:20 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:11 AM
melees never running out of endu, or "the server not needing an endurance bar in the current state" are utter **** and plain wrong...
Anyone making such a claim loses all credibility in my eyes.

Charge might suck, and feel bad, but making up arguments to help your position does the opposite of that...it undermines it

You and I both have LW1, Tireless 1 and a 100 count invigoration draught.

You run directly in front of me for 10 units.

I begin to chase you.

Neither of us have speed and we both sprint.

I am a light tank class that has the ability "charge" to close the distance on an opponent and engage them in melee combat.

This ability does nothing because neither of us will ever be out of endurance.

I cannot close the distance against you because we're both moving at the exact same speed with no fear of running out of endurance.

Charge does nothing.

It's that simple.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:50 PM by Amp_Phetamine

I see there are a few that believe a speed increase to charge is reasonable and would be beneficial to light tanks.

I see there are a few that feel it'd be too much and light tanks don't appreciate the ability and should utilize other classes to compensate for the speed.

I would like to see more well thought out reasoning.

I have explicitly detailed my reasoning why Charge should receive a slight speed boost, why it would be beneficial and why it wouldn't be over powered if implemented correctly.

Now, to my fellow posters out here, we have comments that both agree and disagree.

Primarily to those that disagree:

The majority of rebukes are centered around the concept that the individual believes I am requesting charge to be altered and implemented in the version that is currently active on LiveThis is not true. I am requesting a slight speed increase to the OF version of charge that is currently earned at level 40 by the Blade master, Berserker and Mercenary.

There are a few that have made the statement that if light tanks don't want charge how it currently functions, they'll take it on their other classesThat has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion

There are some that feel this would tip the balance in favor of melee dpsI disagree as this ability is available to the light tanks of each realm and the light tank can still be CC'd by one of four different CC abilities (5 including Ichor).

There are some that feel that it would be unnecessary to "add" things into the game; that we should just have a free-for-all suggestion of things we'd like to haveI don't understand the mindset here. Charge is already an implemented ability in the game that, once again, is earned by each Light Tank at level 40. I'm not asking for anything "new" to be added. Simply an increase on a function of the ability that has already been implemented.

I don't comprehend how a 10-20% speed boost in charge would be so detrimental to the game. How would this change possibly upset the "balance" of melee dps characters? The only thing this alteration would do is give the Light Tank a better chance to close in on an opponent IF they utilize it correctly. Skill is still the main factor here guys.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:29 PM by Sepplord

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:20 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:11 AM
melees never running out of endu, or "the server not needing an endurance bar in the current state" are utter **** and plain wrong...
Anyone making such a claim loses all credibility in my eyes.

Charge might suck, and feel bad, but making up arguments to help your position does the opposite of that...it undermines it

You and I both have LW1, Tireless 1 and a 100 count invigoration draught.

You run directly in front of me for 10 units.

I begin to chase you.

Neither of us have speed and we both sprint.

I am a light tank class that has the ability "charge" to close the distance on an opponent and engage them in melee combat.

This ability does nothing because neither of us will ever be out of endurance.

I cannot close the distance against you because we're both moving at the exact same speed with no fear of running out of endurance.

Charge does nothing.

It's that simple.

Why do you explain a concept/situation that i never disputed?

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:32 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:29 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:20 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:11 AM
melees never running out of endu, or "the server not needing an endurance bar in the current state" are utter **** and plain wrong...
Anyone making such a claim loses all credibility in my eyes.

Charge might suck, and feel bad, but making up arguments to help your position does the opposite of that...it undermines it

You and I both have LW1, Tireless 1 and a 100 count invigoration draught.

You run directly in front of me for 10 units.

I begin to chase you.

Neither of us have speed and we both sprint.

I am a light tank class that has the ability "charge" to close the distance on an opponent and engage them in melee combat.

This ability does nothing because neither of us will ever be out of endurance.

I cannot close the distance against you because we're both moving at the exact same speed with no fear of running out of endurance.

Charge does nothing.

It's that simple.

Why do you explain a concept/situation that i never disputed?

Looks like I wasn't paying attention and accidentally quoted you in that response! Apologies, I was on a typing-frenzy earlier.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:44 PM by Isavyr

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:14 PM
That's a generalized blanket statement Isavyr and you make no valid points other than an attempt to state that you disagree with me.

How on Earth would slightly increasing the speed bonus on a 15s, 3min RUT ability "Completely throw off the balance with melee"?

I could post numbers, and show you the decreased window for casters to respond, but this onus isn't on me. You are the one making the suggestion, so let's flip this around: Prove that this is necessary. I've only seen you argue that it's good, and needed, without any actual numbers or evidence of this.

Let's even flip this around--prove that the current response window doesn't need to be widened in order to give casters more time to respond. Basically in order to settle on a number, which you are arguing for, you need to prove that all other numbers are inappropriate/suboptimal. Not easy to do--balancing these things aren't easy.

edit: And your suggestion is actually more powerful than I suggest in the above. Not only does it decrease the window, but it flips a switch: Formerly, two players without speed run at identical speeds. This is a fundamental with kiting. You are now saying that light-tanks should graduate beyond this mechanic, and have an ability that lets them catch up despite their enemy's counterplay (dropping the tank's speed). And evidently, your number even removes/reduces the penalty for disease. You're bulldozing through multiple mechanics in order to help players achieve their goal of attacking their enemy, without relying on teamwork, which is yet a third fundamental of DAOC teamplay. In my opinion, you were likely not even aware of how many barriers your idea would plow through.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:51 PM by tylerforeal

Ya I’m not really sure it’s needed anyway. Why does this change need to happen- are light tanks in a bad spot right now?

Re: the catch up example of both people sprinting same direction and the light tank unable to catch up. The light tank is achieving something in this scenario, the faster he is pursuing is unable to cast anything and is unable to locked into that direction (if he changes you gain ground).

So not catching a caster is not a fail, you have kept him from casting.

Additionally, you have a charge ability already via Speed if Sound.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:12 PM by Amp_Phetamine

tylerforeal wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 6:51 PM
Ya I’m not really sure it’s needed anyway. Why does this change need to happen- are light tanks in a bad spot right now?

Re: the catch up example of both people sprinting same direction and the light tank unable to catch up. The light tank is achieving something in this scenario, the faster he is pursuing is unable to cast anything and is unable to locked into that direction (if he changes you gain ground).

So not catching a caster is not a fail, you have kept him from casting.

Additionally, you have a charge ability already via Speed if Sound.

What? Light Tanks don't have access to speed of sound.

Yes, this change is necessary because the entire intent of this ability was to give the Light Tank an opportunity to close in on an enemy.

When it was first implemented endurance regeneration was extremely limited. Permanent sprint wasn't as proliferate as it is now and therefore it functioned perfectly as a means to gain distance on an enemy once endurance was expended.

Since Phoenix is a more custom server, and endurance regeneration is more easily obtained, keeping this ability in it's original inception greatly reduces it's value.

The point of Charge is to close the distance between the light tank and the enemy; It does not function in that manner on Phoenix.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 7:34 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 5:44 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 3:14 PM
That's a generalized blanket statement Isavyr and you make no valid points other than an attempt to state that you disagree with me.

How on Earth would slightly increasing the speed bonus on a 15s, 3min RUT ability "Completely throw off the balance with melee"?

I could post numbers, and show you the decreased window for casters to respond, but this onus isn't on me. You are the one making the suggestion, so let's flip this around: Prove that this is necessary. I've only seen you argue that it's good, and needed, without any actual numbers or evidence of this.

Let's even flip this around--prove that the current response window doesn't need to be widened in order to give casters more time to respond. Basically in order to settle on a number, which you are arguing for, you need to prove that all other numbers are inappropriate/suboptimal. Not easy to do--balancing these things aren't easy.

edit: And your suggestion is actually more powerful than I suggest in the above. Not only does it decrease the window, but it flips a switch: Formerly, two players without speed run at identical speeds. This is a fundamental with kiting. You are now saying that light-tanks should graduate beyond this mechanic, and have an ability that lets them catch up despite their enemy's counterplay (dropping the tank's speed). And evidently, your number even removes/reduces the penalty for disease. You're bulldozing through multiple mechanics in order to help players achieve their goal of attacking their enemy, without relying on teamwork, which is yet a third fundamental of DAOC teamplay. In my opinion, you were likely not even aware of how many barriers your idea would plow through.

So essentially you actually have nothing to back up your argument and are deferring to me to compensate for that... understood.

So let me dissect your verbiage of a response:
You are the one making the suggestion, so let's flip this around: Prove that this is necessary. I've only seen you argue that it's good, and needed, without any actual numbers or evidence of this

I have provided you with plenty of reasoning and examples as to why this change is needed, I don't think you need a thesis in statistics to verify that this suggestion is valid. I've backed my suggestion up as to why it's needed and why it wouldn't be an overpowered adjustment
Let's even flip this around--prove that the current response window doesn't need to be widened in order to give casters more time to respond. Basically in order to settle on a number, which you are arguing for, you need to prove that all other numbers are inappropriate/suboptimal. Not easy to do--balancing these things aren't easy.

I don't think you even know what you're stating here. If you're referring to my suggestion of 10-20% speed increase to the base sprint speed application of Charge, I clearly stated that is something that would need to be evaluated by the Developers. This is pretty much a 3 sentence paragraph of nothing.
edit: And your suggestion is actually more powerful than I suggest in the above. Not only does it decrease the window, but it flips a switch: Formerly, two players without speed run at identical speeds. This is a fundamental with kiting.

You're assuming far too much. The entire purpose, concept, meaning, of Charge is to gain distance on an opposing player and engage that player into melee combat range... This is the entire concept of charge. That is it's purpose. This is nothing new, the ability has been in the game for years.
You are now saying that light-tanks should graduate beyond this mechanic, and have an ability that lets them catch up despite their enemy's counterplay (dropping the tank's speed). And evidently, your number even removes/reduces the penalty for disease.

Yes, Light Tanks are not Heavy Tanks. The whole purpose of charge is to allow the light tanks to engage their enemy in melee combat. I don't know where you bring in "my number" nor how disease would impact charge either. You're theorizing about theoretical situations. Disease would effect charge exactly the same, percentage wise, that it already does as charge is a coded ability in the game.
You're bulldozing through multiple mechanics in order to help players achieve their goal of attacking their enemy, without relying on teamwork, which is yet a third fundamental of DAOC teamplay. In my opinion, you were likely not even aware of how many barriers your idea would plow through

Once again, again, Charge is already an active ability in this game. The entire point of this discussion is centered around the effectiveness of charge in the current meta. I have proposed for a small speed increase to the base value of charge in order to compensate for the prevalence of permanent sprint. You are literally making up these nonsensical fears about how detrimental a speed boost to charge would be. That is why there is testing. That is why I additionally argued AGAINST adding the CC immunity feature of charge, that would be over powered.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:26 PM by Isavyr

You appear to shrug off my points so instead of restating them in more interesting ways, hoping to grab your attention, I'll try to paint you a picture:

A light-tank can achieve between 85-90% reduction of CC passively, allowing them to have the highest uptime of involvement in a battle. In addition, they can deal damage while moving, and regenerate their damage resource (endo) faster than anyone else in the game (characteristics of melee). In addition, they will now get an ability that has no counterplay, and in fact is the counter to other's counterplay--did your tank get hit and lose their speed? No problem, use Charge. Did your tank get diseased by those pesky casters trying to counter them? No problem, use Charge. Looks like the enemy caster is controlled--he's running and not casting--not good enough! use Charge.

It's mindless. Charge becomes the answer to every situation, and has no counterplay, and bulldozes through several team mechanics. Good luck with your suggestion.

Wed 6 Mar 2019 9:00 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Isavyr wrote: ↑
Wed 6 Mar 2019 8:26 PM
You appear to shrug off my points so instead of restating them in more interesting ways, hoping to grab your attention, I'll try to paint you a picture:

A light-tank can achieve between 85-90% reduction of CC passively, allowing them to have the highest uptime of involvement in a battle. In addition, they can deal damage while moving, and regenerate their damage resource (endo) faster than anyone else in the game (characteristics of melee). In addition, they will now get an ability that has no counterplay, and in fact is the counter to other's counterplay--did your tank get hit and lose their speed? No problem, use Charge. Did your tank get diseased by those pesky casters trying to counter them? No problem, use Charge. Looks like the enemy caster is controlled--he's running and not casting--not good enough! use Charge.

It's mindless. Charge becomes the answer to every situation, and has no counterplay, and bulldozes through several team mechanics. Good luck with your suggestion.

So we should immediately disregard adaptations to Charge because Light Tanks have the capability of speccing Det 9? That's ludicrous.

Second, I didn't shrug off your points, I answered the ones that actually made sense.

I don't know how many times I have to state that Charge has 4 basic counter plays with 1 RA counter. Charged tanks can be: 1. Mezzed, 2. Stunned, 3. Rooted, 4. Snared & 5. Ichored. This would not change in any way with a slight speed bonus, I don't understand what you don't get about that. I do not want the current "Live" DAoC version of charge implemented. That would be over the top and over powered.

You're acting like a charged Light Tank would be able to chase down a target 1500-2000 units away during the 15s duration. If anything in my theory the tank would move 15% faster than the enemy both moving at sprint speed. It's an opportunistic ability not a iWin button. I'm not asking for it to be an iWin ability! READ! I am asking for it to function as it was designed to function. When used strategically it should increase the Light Tanks opportunity to engage an opponent in melee combat. It. Does. Not. Function. This. Way. Currently.

You've got to be delusional to completely ignore the multitude of ways that Charge can already be counter played. Do you know why nothing comes to mind? Because you don't even know when a Light Tank even USES charge on the battlefield because it has ALMOST no purpose. Every single Light Tank in the game could Charge you and you would never have any idea to the contrary because the marginal effect it has on Phoenix is so rudimentary it's completely ignored.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:50 PM by Mauriac

Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
Roto23 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:09 PM
As a healer, I'm opposed to improving charge. There are too many anti CC tools in the game already.

Oh boy,

Please, please, please, please, please, read everything completely.

I explicitly state "Do Not Implement the CC Immunity Function....Only a Speed Increase".

if your sole goal was a speed increase without the CC immunity then i don't see why this would be a bad change. would probably be a good one actually. for once we agree on something? cheers.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 1:07 PM by Afuldan

I like the idea of making Charge actually, charge. Feels bad to have a dead ability.

Sat 9 Mar 2019 5:30 PM by jg777

Giving a minor speed increase to Charge is not going to suddenly make casters unable to cope with light tanks- CC tools will still be effective at taking them out of play for a time. Charge presently offers nothing to light tanks and would be better to simply make the Charge function as a localized /yell of “Charge!!” so their realm mates know that they are attempting to charge the enemy and suggest that others follow them.

This isn’t a radical suggestion here and I’d argue actually fixes an unintended bug with Charge than anything. Please consider Phoenix staff!

Mon 11 Mar 2019 1:37 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Mauriac wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 12:50 PM
Amp_Phetamine wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:19 PM
Roto23 wrote: ↑
Thu 28 Feb 2019 5:09 PM
As a healer, I'm opposed to improving charge. There are too many anti CC tools in the game already.

Oh boy,

Please, please, please, please, please, read everything completely.

I explicitly state "Do Not Implement the CC Immunity Function....Only a Speed Increase".

if your sole goal was a speed increase without the CC immunity then i don't see why this would be a bad change. would probably be a good one actually. for once we agree on something? cheers.

Aye. The only thing I'd like to see with Charge is a slight increase in speed. CC still affects the Light Tank even with Charge active. This will retain the need to use the ability strategically as well as keeping multiple counters open.

/Cheers as well ^^

Mon 11 Mar 2019 1:42 PM by Amp_Phetamine

jg777 wrote: ↑
Sat 9 Mar 2019 5:30 PM
Giving a minor speed increase to Charge is not going to suddenly make casters unable to cope with light tanks- CC tools will still be effective at taking them out of play for a time. Charge presently offers nothing to light tanks and would be better to simply make the Charge function as a localized /yell of “Charge!!” so their realm mates know that they are attempting to charge the enemy and suggest that others follow them.

This isn’t a radical suggestion here and I’d argue actually fixes an unintended bug with Charge than anything. Please consider Phoenix staff!

Agree'd.

I was watching an multi-pov DAoC video on youtube over the weekend and in a few of the clips the player showed multiple encounters on his blademaster. I wanted to link the video because it's important to note, especially to the developers, that charge was on his hotbar. He must have had 5-6+ 8v8+ fights throughout his blademaster PoV and only once did he even bother using charge and it wasn't because he was in need of endurance. I think he just used it for the sake of using it.

Would be incredibly reasonable for charge to receive a slight speed increase.

https://youtu.be/Q9g1F_kvaAA

Thu 14 Mar 2019 2:01 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bumping to get some more opinions from the Phoenix Staff.

Edit: I'd also like to mention that this may assist Berserker's in gaining some value in mid melee groups to put them more on par with the savage (only in terms of group viability).

Fri 15 Mar 2019 4:15 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bump: @gruenesschaf do you have any comments regarding this proposal?

I know Chimera already stated previously that Charge isn't currently on the radar for alterations; however, I do feel that the suggestion presented is well within reason and relatively feasible.

Would like to hear your opinion as well as Uthred's if possible.

Thank you.

Mon 18 Mar 2019 4:49 PM by Amp_Phetamine

Bump

Mon 18 Mar 2019 7:30 PM by k3mra

I dont think charge needs to be changed but if i would suggest a change i would say

Just stark it with sprint.

With only charge you would run at the same speed as a other character sprinting but would be able to reg endu or use styles more freely.

If you want to close the gap between you und someone else you could combine it with sprint.

( Edit:
i think it could also come with a trade... if charge is aktiv sprint has doubble endu cost.)

Most important is that the light tank while charging could still be cced

Thu 21 Mar 2019 7:18 PM by Amp_Phetamine

k3mra wrote: ↑
Mon 18 Mar 2019 7:30 PM
I dont think charge needs to be changed but if i would suggest a change i would say

Just stark it with sprint.

With only charge you would run at the same speed as a other character sprinting but would be able to reg endu or use styles more freely.

If you want to close the gap between you und someone else you could combine it with sprint.

( Edit:
i think it could also come with a trade... if charge is aktiv sprint has doubble endu cost.)

Most important is that the light tank while charging could still be cced

Yeah, to highlight your last comment, that is the entire perspective I've had in addressing any potential alterations to charge. That is to keep the CC function unaltered. The problem with charge is that currently it basically functions as a weak endurance regen. There is no distance closing against enemies because of the fact that you move at sprint speed while it's active yet 99% of the playerbase already has permanent sprint before they enter the FZ to begin with. It would be very practical to increase the speed portion of charge without changing other features of the ability @Uthred

Mon 25 Mar 2019 3:55 PM by Amp_Phetamine

This will be my last post here for a while regarding Charge.

I did receive confirmation over the weekend that there are no plans to review charge at this time.

Although not the outcome I was hoping for, I appreciate all of the time and opinions that were shared throughout this thread and hopefully at a later time Charge will have the ability to be reviewed!

Thank you Dev's and Posters,
-Amp

Sat 22 Jun 2019 3:21 AM by oldmanukko

I too believe that Charge is currently completely useless. I understand it's the OF version that's implemented. As mentioned before, OF did not have such easily obtained endurance regen. (with the friar's self-endo, i could out-last someone in a sprint who was trying to flee. can't do that here either) I think it's pretty safe to say all have Tireless and Longwind. Add an endurance potion and there's nothing Charge has to offer that every single class, in all three realms, can't buy with 2 realm skill points and a couple gold.

SoS can happen at any time and for any reason. I don't think Charge should do this or move that fast. Charge should require a target. I don't even think Charge needs the CC immunity. To me, if Charge simply allowed a 10-15 second "super-sprint" while a target is selected, that'd be acceptable. Maybe even if a target was hit within that 10-15 seconds it would remove the remaining seconds of the Charge timer, that'd seem fair as well.