Paladin Changes, Celerity For All, And Balance On All Realms

Started 8 Jan 2021
by Meticode
in Suggestions
Greetings,

I totally understand the reasoning to incorporate some changes or buffs into the Paladin class to make them more group viable. I'm not against that occurring, but it feels like we're beating around the bush on what obviously should happen. The term celerity has been brought up many times. And it will be brought up again here in this post. Experimentally the 3% group insta has been added to the Paladin. For the cost of 60% power. Apart from it being an insta, it almost has the same effect as the Friar casting their HoT and it ticking 1 time. I repeat, 1 tick. Usually 1 tick for the Friar yellow-purple Heal-over-Time heals for 2-3%. It feels almost useless to me. The damage add being 2.5 DPS? I don't need to say more. I know this is experimental and it will probably change.

A lot of class changes have taken place to balance out the realms. Triple debuffs added, AoE DoT taken away from Earth Wizards because coupled with AoE nuke snare it's strong. Nearsight given to Ments, Alb body train groups nerfed, etc.

In light of these changes and balance I want to mention that Mid is a great tank realm. They are the only realm that gets two light tanks in the Savage and Berserker. They are the only realm with access to two Charge tanks.

They are also the only realm that gets access to Celerity. Why? Is it for the sake of keeping them different?

Currently Aug Healers have access to Celerity at 18,, 26, 32 and 44 Aug. The values are 24%, 28%, 31% and 37%. What I'm asking for aren't even those high of values for the Paladin. And also when I say Paladin I think the Warden should be included in this as well.

My proposal is take away the Heal and Damage Add insta changes and just put in a straight Celerity insta that costs 60% base power. At 40 and 50 Chants you get a 10% and a 15% Celerity buff that lasts 15 seconds and is on a 60 second recast timer. This Celerity buff will only effect groupmates and not the Paladin. I think giving Celerity to a melee class and them having access to it solo gives them too much of an advantage.

Something similar would be done with the Warden, but obviously since Wardens are way more dependent on their power pool for PBT and Heals, it wouldn't be a insta 60% power cost. Maybe for Wardens make it a castable spell with the same recast timer of 60s, but instead of it lasting 15s like the Paladin it lasts maybe 20s like it does for the Healer. Power costing being 40 power similiar to a Healer or something like that. Again, this buff only effects groupmates, not the Warden. Something around the same spec level for them as well. Maybe at 39 Nurture which they get nothing currently they get a 9% Celerity buff, and at 50 they get the 15% if they spec that high into it.

All 3 realms get access to Celerity, Alb and Hib versions aren't over the top and it wouldn't effect the Warden or Pally solo because it's a group buff.

Respectfully,

Meticode

P.S. - It looks like I misunderstood the heal wrong for the Paladin. It's 24% total for the whole group 3% for each member. I didn't realize this because it doesn't work right now as I was typing this even though we can spec for it. But even with that, I'd still prefer Celerity for all realms with my proposal.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:44 PM by boridi
Meticode wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:31 PM
Greetings,

I totally understand the reasoning to incorporate some changes or buffs into the Paladin class to make them more group viable. I'm not against that occurring, but it feels like we're beating around the bush on what obviously should happen. The term celerity has been brought up many times. And it will be brought up again here in this post. Experimentally the 3% group insta has been added to the Paladin. For the cost of 60% power. Apart from it being an insta, it almost has the same effect as the Friar casting their HoT and it ticking 1 time. I repeat, 1 tick. Usually 1 tick for the Friar yellow-purple Heal-over-Time heals for 2-3%. It feels almost useless to me. The damage add being 2.5 DPS? I don't need to say more. I know this is experimental and it will probably change.


Isn't it 3% per group member? So 24% in a full group? Same for damage add.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:00 PM by Meticode
boridi wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:44 PM
Meticode wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 5:31 PM
Greetings,

I totally understand the reasoning to incorporate some changes or buffs into the Paladin class to make them more group viable. I'm not against that occurring, but it feels like we're beating around the bush on what obviously should happen. The term celerity has been brought up many times. And it will be brought up again here in this post. Experimentally the 3% group insta has been added to the Paladin. For the cost of 60% power. Apart from it being an insta, it almost has the same effect as the Friar casting their HoT and it ticking 1 time. I repeat, 1 tick. Usually 1 tick for the Friar yellow-purple Heal-over-Time heals for 2-3%. It feels almost useless to me. The damage add being 2.5 DPS? I don't need to say more. I know this is experimental and it will probably change.


Isn't it 3% per group member? So 24% in a full group? Same for damage add.

You are correct on this. I guess I misunderstood it wrong because it doesn't work right now or hasn't for me since the reboot and being grouped. But I still stand by my Celerity proposal.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:04 PM by Sepplord
As mentioned boridi said, the buff scales with groupsize...

And Midgard has two offtanks, but only one has Charge (and the Charge in this Server is old frontier Charge....aka a small Sprint that doesn't cost endurance....Not fast, No CC immunity)
Having more of a class doesn't make those classes stronger, it's Not that you can Put wach class into a group exactly one time and because Midgard has 2off Tanks they get one more in the group than other realms...


Hibernia has the strongest tankgrp, Not Midgard. Funnily because of the Warden that you want to give a veeerrryyy strong cele while you want to give Paladins a really shitty Version that they can only use once or twice per Fight for a few seconds
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:13 PM by Meticode
Sepplord wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:04 PM
As mentioned boridi said, the buff scales with groupsize...

And Midgard has two offtanks, but only one has Charge (and the Charge in this Server is old frontier Charge....aka a small Sprint that doesn't cost endurance....Not fast, No CC immunity)
Having more of a class doesn't make those classes stronger, it's Not that you can Put wach class into a group exactly one time and because Midgard has 2off Tanks they get one more in the group than other realms...


Hibernia has the strongest tankgrp, Not Midgard. Funnily because of the Warden that you want to give a veeerrryyy strong cele while you want to give Paladins a really shitty Version that they can only use once or twice per Fight for a few seconds
The Warden Celerity would be the same as the Paladin. It still has a 60s cooldown timer. The only difference is it costs less power and it's castable. Other than that you can't use it more often because of the cooldown timer.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:49 PM by ExcretusMaximus
If Paladins (and maybe Wardens) get Celerity, then I expect the other realms to receive the same weapon speed nerfs Midgard got; no more 6.0 polearms, no more 5.7 and higher two-handers, and no more 4.3 and higher one-handed weapons.
Fri 8 Jan 2021 7:55 PM by Meticode
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:49 PM
If Paladins (and maybe Wardens) get Celerity, then I expect the other realms to receive the same weapon speed nerfs Midgard got; no more 6.0 polearms, no more 5.7 and higher two-handers, and no more 4.3 and higher one-handed weapons.

Not sure, because my proposed delve isn't as high as the Healer's. It's half that. But I'd still be fine with that if they wanted to do it.
Mon 11 Jan 2021 11:29 AM by byron
So in Midgard celerity can be done only by a support class specced in aug and this class has no defense, needs to heal others and do interrupts. And you want to give it to a class with shield (slam), with plate armor that needs only to peel or go with assist train ? Seems fair After arsman with anytime snare and merc that now has a back snare, it seems legit. I would give dashing defence to reavers for free too since Alb seems underpopulated and weak on this server.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 1:51 AM by Meticode
byron wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 11:29 AM
So in Midgard celerity can be done only by a support class specced in aug and this class has no defense, needs to heal others and do interrupts. And you want to give it to a class with shield (slam), with plate armor that needs only to peel or go with assist train ? Seems fair
I still don't know what you're exactly getting at here? What does it matter if the Paladin wears plate and only has a couple jobs? The buff would NOT effect the Paladin at all grouped or solo. It would only affect groupmates. That's what I said in my post to begin with to keep the Paladin from getting overpowered by preventing access to Celerity solo for the class. You sarcastically asked if it seemed fair to give it to them. How is it fair that only 1 realm has access to Celerity at all?
Thu 14 Jan 2021 2:20 AM by ExcretusMaximus
Meticode wrote:
Thu 14 Jan 2021 1:51 AM
byron wrote:
Mon 11 Jan 2021 11:29 AM
So in Midgard celerity can be done only by a support class specced in aug and this class has no defense, needs to heal others and do interrupts. And you want to give it to a class with shield (slam), with plate armor that needs only to peel or go with assist train ? Seems fair
I still don't know what you're exactly getting at here? What does it matter if the Paladin wears plate and only has a couple jobs? The buff would NOT effect the Paladin at all grouped or solo. It would only affect groupmates. That's what I said in my post to begin with to keep the Paladin from getting overpowered by preventing access to Celerity solo for the class. You sarcastically asked if it seemed fair to give it to them. How is it fair that only 1 realm has access to Celerity at all?

His point is that a Healer has to stand within 1k units to get his groupmates Celerity, and a Healer is far squishier (and more important) than a Paladin that will typically be with the train anyway if he's dumping Celerity. Not sure it's a valid argument to make, but it's the one being made.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 3:27 AM by Neso
I hope they leave celerity as it is.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 7:55 AM by inoeth
even though the new pala stuff might be great, situational, i can already see that it will not lead to palas being invited to groups.
celerity will fix that im pretty sure but then the pala will be totally op in solo fights and he is already strong in that.
sooo what yould be done?
im not sure if thats possible but how about restricting cele to grp members only not affecting the pala himself? or how about you need to be in a grp to be able to cast cele?
or how about the pala only gets a massivly reduced version of cele for himself but the grp gets the full bonus?

still what sepplord wrote is also true ... if the pala gets cele wardens want to have it too and hib tankers are already really strong. here i can see some kind of trade off spec, putting the cele into the weapon lines so the warden has to decide if he wants to be pbt/healer, pbt/cele, or cele/healer. this would also make the solo warden alot stronger which is needed too imo (atm its near impossible to solo a warden)
Thu 14 Jan 2021 8:08 AM by Lollie
If they give Pallys celerity on a chant, even with the reduced version originally posted then it would be up pretty much 100% of the time , Healers have to stay in range and cast it, assuming they are actually able to cast it and not being interuppted or busy healing.

Give pallys stoicism, at least then they can be part of the tank train with endo or the group can decide if they want a defensive peeler in a pally or offensive in arms/merc.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 9:48 AM by Centenario
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Fri 8 Jan 2021 6:49 PM
If Paladins (and maybe Wardens) get Celerity, then I expect the other realms to receive the same weapon speed nerfs Midgard got; no more 6.0 polearms, no more 5.7 and higher two-handers, and no more 4.3 and higher one-handed weapons.

Also give troll starting stat to other realms please, for 'balance'
Thu 14 Jan 2021 11:11 AM by Sepplord
lurikeen modelsize for all too please

and buffs on CC-class for all

and CC on speedclass for all

and heal on meleeclass for all

and pets on speeclass for all

and debuffs on petclasses for all

and so on...

there really is only one solution, just give all realms all classes and all races and all combinations
ohh...and mirror the PvE-zones too, too many differences and don't get me started about the RvR differences...that's gonna be a hard one, but i noticed that the docks for one realm at their main portkeep is 6735units away from the keepdoors, while in the other realms it is 500units further, that makes it so much harder to reach the docks on the other realms. And the relicwall docks, jeeeebus, some realms have to cross the river on their shortest travelroute while others don't even have to get wet at all
Thu 14 Jan 2021 12:14 PM by byron
ExcretusMaximus wrote:
Thu 14 Jan 2021 2:20 AM
His point is that a Healer has to stand within 1k units to get his groupmates Celerity, and a Healer is far squishier (and more important) than a Paladin that will typically be with the train anyway if he's dumping Celerity. Not sure it's a valid argument to make, but it's the one being made.

Thanks for the translation In addition if you want to hit hard a Mid group, you can assist on the healer so the group will not have celerity, base buffs, heals and interrupts. On Alb the roles are more spreaded into different classes and, if you give celerity to paladin, it will be another support class needed to be killed asap but, since he has shield, slam and plate armor it would be quite harder than an healer without any defence on his side (ok an healer can run....). Let's say that Paladin has already a big feature on his side that this endurance chant... think an alb group without end regen : casters will not able to kite forever as now, tanks will be a lot less powerful after 4-5 styles and so on... but unluckily a potion has ruined this mechanism and it is preferred than a played class (and the 1.65 patch reference has not considered here... but it is considered for NF charge for light tanks for example so it is quite a mix of things and feelings...) .
I think it is not so hard to understand. If you give a new tool to a class , you'll change a lot also outside that class and, since it seems some classes are receiving new toys, I'll see that balancing the game now will be more harder than before.
About celerity only on Midgard : I think it is not a valid argument, otherwise Midgard can ask red pets for skalds and yellow one for healers ? Or plate armor for warriorrs ? Or back style as Reavers + twf for Thanes ? And Hibernia what will say ? It would be a never ending story between the three realms if you check the good and the bad.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 12:22 PM by poplik
I really hated when they gave celerity to everyone on live, mid went from realm with the only celerity to the realm with the worst celerity.
Thu 14 Jan 2021 2:32 PM by Neso
So the suggestions so far are to basically buff hib/warden even more. Shaft paladins so they can't use it (and alb groups potential dps) and leave mid unchanged. Sounds fair /s
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