Minstrel Limbo - Phoenix Freeshard

Having played both as and against minstrel both before and after the server's changes I think minstrels are in need of an adjustment. My primary focus is 8v8 or 8vX since that is the perspective that needs to be taken when balancing classes - a majority of these points do not apply to 1v1 or even smallman since the range discrepancies and pet control issues are not as detrimental in those situations.

Minstrel is a speed rupting class with cc so the fairest comparisons are vs bard and skald. I will also only focus on the imbalance of the rupting/control capabilities of these classes. I do not mention 1500 range DD charges since those are available to all classes and on 3m timers.

Minstrel :
-2x 700 range DDs - 15s cooldown
-1x 700 range stun - 10s cooldown
-1x 700 range instant confuse - 30s cooldown
-10.7s duration charm on 5s frequency pulse
-1500 range pulse single mezz - 3s cast time while moving not affected by dex - 29s duration
-1500 range casted AoE mezz - 5s cast time - 30s duration

Bard :
-1x 700 range dd - 10s cooldown
-1500 range casted single mezz - 2.5s - 1:10 duration
-1500 range casted AoE mezz - 3s - 1:01 duration
-1500 range Instant single mezz - 22s duration - 10m cooldown
-1500 range Instant AoE mezz - 26s duration - 10m cooldown
-2x 2000 range instant "rupts"/speed breaks

Skald :
-2x 700 range DDs - 15s cooldown
-1x 700 range instant mezz - 29s duration - 30s cooldown
-1x 700 range instant snare - 1:41 duration - 30s cooldown
-Det

From a range perspective it's clear that the bard has the upper hand with both faster mezz casts (as well as instant mezzes) and amnesia. For a minstrel or skald to effectively rupt they need to be within 700 range. Of course minstrels can stay back and cast 3s mezzes popping in and out of range, but realistically these single mezzes are both considerably weaker and slower - a bard can almost cast 2 singles by the time a minstrel casts 1 since it is not dex based. Not to mention that this is the only tool that the minstrel gets at that range and so is only able to rupt/control a single player at a time (I don't mention the AoE because 5s cast time makes it non-viable in a majority of cases). So we can safely conclude that a minstrel needs to be up-close to rupt.

Up-close the minstrel has more rupt capability than skald given their stun and confuse and pet. I only mention the pet now because with the changes it is typically not an effective strategy to send the pet farther than 700 units away, as it will be easy to CC and the minstrel will not be able to recover the pet without significant effort/risk in a standard alb group. The minstrel is still a rupt machine when they are free and CC immune and within 700 range of both enemies and their pet. However, since minstrel has no det they are easy to control with a competent group and left behind if the alb group pulls. Skalds are still able to fulfill their role with their reduced range since they have det, a variety of snares, and are typically fighting in push groups.

Lastly, the pet charm is on a 5s frequency with 10.7s duration and is interrupted by stun. This means that if you are either slammed 1.7s-5s after a normal pulse or anytime up to 5s after a resisted pulse you will lose control of your pet, removing all minstrel pressure. While a skald has to deal with a similar situation, their group/support is pushing towards them, whereas the minstrel is almost always sacrificing ground in order to rupt.

I don't think many would argue that the previous pet-release behavior was balanced - but in the current state the minstrel is stuck in limbo between pushing to actually be able to rupt and catching full duration CC/potentially getting left behind or being relatively ineffective at range - maybe snaring or trying to clear cc. My suggestions are to either :
a.) Give minstrels det
b.) Give minstrels a faster/more effective casted mezz
c.) Make at least one of the minstrel DDs 1500 range
d.) Re-implement the previous minstrel pet-release mechanic (which is still in place for mentalists)
e.) At the very least keep the minstrel charm running through stun

tl;dr No other class on this server is required to be within 700 range of the enemy to fully fulfill their role and does NOT have det.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 7:03 PM by Rov

You got a flute mez that win against any other CC class unless they drop insta CC on you.

I played a minstrel to rr9 and even with the pet charm change i see no reason to change anything to this class, they're still super strong.
You can't really mirror those 3 classes.

You can have a 1,5k dd charge on your crafted buckler, so you have a extra rupt, there you go!

Wed 5 Aug 2020 7:05 PM by ExcretusMaximus

Give them a yellow pet at best and I'll gladly entertain any changes people want made to them, but as long as they can have the bullshit that is a red pet under the new charm system, they're borderline broken and need no buffs.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 7:16 PM by Iuppiter

Rov wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Aug 2020 7:03 PM
You can have a 1,5k dd charge on your crafted buckler, so you have a extra rupt, there you go!

I address this point directly in the original post, please re-read.

ExcretusMaximus wrote: Give them a yellow pet at best and I'll gladly entertain any changes people want made to them, but as long as they can have the bullshit that is a red pet under the new charm system, they're borderline broken and need no buffs.

This would be an interesting trade-off - I'd assume the yellow pet would require lower instruments, maybe more variety of specs would open up as well.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 9:17 PM by Neso

In 8v8 settings now, its feels too easy keeping minstrel and pet cc cycled with the charm changes.

I always thought when I played alb, that minstrels had to over-perform due to the lack of any decent utility on their healer classes.
If a rethink makes more alb 8mans rvr, then I'd rather that then the current boredom of fighting the same couple of groups every night.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 9:50 PM by Gildar

Another post based on 8v8 ?
There are MANY other playstyles to ponder and i cant believe that a change is made only to satisfy a single playstyle.

Minis are far more OP than any other class in Phoenix... cant believe you ask a buff on them ... -.-

And you cant compare minis with bard ... bard is first cc toon on Hib and have to be considered with mid healer and alb sorcerer ... not with a mini.

Buff up minis class is like giving a cannon to someone that fight against a kid with a toothstick

Wed 5 Aug 2020 10:13 PM by Iuppiter

Gildar wrote: Another post based on 8v8 ?
There are MANY other playstyles to ponder and i cant believe that a change is made only to satisfy a single playstyle.

Minis are far more OP than any other class in Phoenix... cant believe you ask a buff on them ... -.-

And you cant compare minis with bard ... bard is first cc toon on Hib and have to be considered with mid healer and alb sorcerer ... not with a mini.

Buff up minis class is like giving a cannon to someone that fight against a kid with a toothstick

Thank you for your reply. There is no change made, this is just a suggestions forum post.

I base my initial arguments around the 8v8 playstyle, but a few of my suggestions would have little to no impact on solo/smallman playstyles. For instance, all other stealthers get det but I would guess that a vast majority of them do not train into it because it is simply not an optimal 1v1 investment. Also, a casted mezz might also make minstrel less viable in 1v1 since they would not be able to cast while running. I understand minstrel is very OP in 1v1 and smallman situations, there is little that can be done to fix that balance without a complete class overhaul - but then you fall into the very trap you are complaining about - balancing around a single playstyle.

I compare minis with bard simply because they are both primary rupters. But I also include comparisons with skald which is arguably more of a direct comparison due to the range and melee parallels. In any case, all other hib classes that can rupt/CC have either 1500+ range dex-affected castable spells or determination, so pick your favorite comparison and apply the same argument.

Wed 5 Aug 2020 10:58 PM by protege

I donno about those changes Iuppiter.

Minstrels are better at interrupting than skalds are. A skald ONLY has instant interrupts while a minstrel can spam mezz on someone while simultaneously targeting other casters to interrupt them.. on top of having a pet to help.

They're in a good place now. The old charm was imbalanced in almost every aspect of DAoC -- Solo and 8v8, specifically. You have to actually think about pushing to backlines / what to hit solo now, which is what everyone else does. No more god-mode :>

No need for det on the class, no need for a longer charm, no need for a put to last through a full duration stun (there has to be some drawback to owning a red pet while you have endless other interrupting abilities imo).

Thu 6 Aug 2020 12:21 AM by CowwoC

This thread already fails by comparing Minstrel with Skald and Bard.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 1:04 AM by Iuppiter

CowwoC wrote: ↑
Thu 6 Aug 2020 12:21 AM
This thread already fails by comparing Minstrel with Skald and Bard.

Certainly open to other comparisons friend, but since classes are not mirrored I specifically stated I'm focused on the rupting/control potential of these classes. By all means feel free to tell me which classes are the yardstick for minstrel balance in 8v8 and I'll give you my perspective.

protege wrote: I donno about those changes Iuppiter.

Minstrels are better at interrupting than skalds are. A skald ONLY has instant interrupts while a minstrel can spam mezz on someone while simultaneously targeting other casters to interrupt them.. on top of having a pet to help.

They're in a good place now. The old charm was imbalanced in almost every aspect of DAoC -- Solo and 8v8, specifically. You have to actually think about pushing to backlines / what to hit solo now, which is what everyone else does. No more god-mode :>

No need for det on the class, no need for a longer charm, no need for a put to last through a full duration stun (there has to be some drawback to owning a red pet while you have endless other interrupting abilities imo).

I appreciate the feedback. I'll cede the point that under the conditions of being CC immune and/or largely left alone minstrels are far superior interrupters than skalds. The difference is a skald's group is usually catching up to them whereas the minstrels group is kiting away from them; so when a minstrel inevitably gets CCd out it's much harder for the group to demezz/support. This is compounded by the fact that minstrels have to be pushed up (at least slightly) to do any effective interrupts (sure one target rupted every 3s is something). I'm also admittedly not the best minstrel, so maybe there's something to be said for user error - I'm just offering my experience.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 1:23 AM by CowwoC

The point is - you said it yourself - the classes are not mirrored. You simply can't compare their tools and make a list that a is better to have than b.

You compare the bard mezz with the minstrel mezz for example, how comes this even to mind? If you want to compare the mezzez, then it would be bard and sorc -maybe - in this case. You just point out that minstrel have much more versatile tools than all other classes, especially than skald and bard. You mentioned the rupt potential and forget that bards hit like little girls but skalds can shred you and even minstrel hit for a decent ammout - they also have 2 dd's. Just because a bard can rupt from a greater distance does not mean he is better at rupting. Did you ever played a low rr skald? They suck compared to minstrels, even with having access to det. You made that clear by yourself actually and still ask for giving minstrel det on top of all their tools they already have?

If anyone of those 3 classes needs a buff, then it's not the minstrel - imho.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 1:17 PM by Spiegal

How about the fact that Minstrel get a lvl 53-55 pet while pet spec class get a lvl 41 and spend power/time to cast them...
That's a hard no from me.

Thu 6 Aug 2020 1:49 PM by Ele

From a mostly pac pov, I agree that minstrels are more easily countered since the latest changes, but by that they are just put in line with other classes, because you have counters for (almost) everything. The pet mechanic change was necessary and shouldn't be reverted. Before the changes, your only window of opportunity to take a minstrel out was either by collapsing on it, kill the minst pet or time cc on the minst and the pet with the peeler, stuning and taunting the pet to get it out of the minsts control while the minst is still cc'd. Now you can control the minst by targeting it with e.g. aug+shaman or runi+aug at the beginning of a fight, usually ending in the minst and the pet being cc'd, forcing the minst to purge or sit it out. Which is fair, because you still invest a lot in taking out the minst, playing at least 2vs1 if you try to cc, up to 5vs1 if you try to kill the minst.
This only works because the minst lacks range, apart from its flute mezz, which btw is difficult to interupt, because it is not affected by amnesia and castable while moving, so you can't really use casts against the minst, unless speed is broken already or the minst is not moving in and out of range properly, otherwise you usually don't get off the cast. A higher instant range would make the described moves more difficult while shifting the minsts position closer to its group, rendering collapsing and cc'ing pretty useless, because you count on taking the minst out while being seperated from the group.
That being said, if you feel that you have problems doing your job as a minst, I'd advise to talk e.g. to Leroy how to improve your gameplay in an 8vs8 scenario. The latest changes really did'nt influence his performance, apart from giving us mediocre healers a chance to cc him sometimes as a team effort. ;-)