Minstrel adjustments - Phoenix Freeshard

First of all: Those adjustments are just suggestions and do not to be considered an all together adjustment.
Second of all: I mainly play 8v8, so all my suggestions are based on what I experience in 8v8.
For those Minstrel haters: Please search another thread to publish your rubbish.

I have been playing the Minstrel a lot after the recent changes and from my point of view the Minstrel needs a few adjustments which the devs probably did not think about when they did all the changes.

1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go. Adjusted (11.08.2020)

2. Lower charm cooldown so 3 seconds

At the moment it is only viable to play with a pet which resists by 5%. 15% is okay too but imagine having your pet lost for 12 seconds being in danger getting killed by enemies really quick, which would happen more often due to resist. For example if you are stunned for 9 seconds, your charm resists and you have to wait another 6 seconds. 6 seconds is just far too long in my opinion because in 6 seconds a lot can happen.
3. Lower the resist chance of spells when the pet got released and is in recently charmed state.

4. Increase resist chance of spells when pet is charmed. (Related to 3.)

5. Increase the miss chance when pet is charmed or in recently charmed state.

6. Remove cancelation of the pulse charm after release.

This is kinda related to the cooldown of the charm because everytime you release your pet you have to recharm it with your spell instead of taking the chance that the pulse kicks in again after a while and the pet. Basically it gives you a more chances to get your pet back in case your charm resists and you don't have to wait another 6 seconds.
@Devs it would be really nice if you could consider adjusting anything to make the Minstrel more enjoyable to play because in it current state it is really annoying watching after you pet all the time because it can be snared all the time, it moves slower than sprint and gets even slower with disease so it becomes useless really quick at the moment. With the perma charm you wanted to make the Minstrel easier to play for casuals and you achieved that but with the CC change it makes it much harder to be useful if you are a beginner so it would be nice to see adjustments happen.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 4:20 AM by gotwqqd

Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
First of all: Those adjustments are just suggestions and do not to be considered an all together adjustment.
Second of all: I mainly play 8v8, so all my suggestions are based on what I experience in 8v8.
For those Minstrel haters: Please search another thread to publish your rubbish.

I have been playing the Minstrel a lot after the recent changes and from my point of view the Minstrel needs a few adjustments which the devs probably did not think about when they did all the changes.

1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go.
Since the pet can't break CC on the minstrel anymore it happens a lot that the minstrel loses his pet and enemies can kill it really quickly.
For example if an enemy with a 2 hand swings at it for 200 damage it will cause 600 damage in total on a recently released pet.
If the enemy hits for 200 damage + 100 damage crit it will cause 900 damage.
So basically they are able to kill a pet in 3-4 swings alone. If you have 3 melees on it it will die in 1-3 seconds.

2. Lower charm cooldown so 3 seconds
At the moment it is only viable to play with a pet which resists by 5%. 15% is okay too but imagine having your pet lost for 12 seconds being in danger getting killed by enemies really quick, which would happen more often due to resist. For example if you are stunned for 9 seconds, your charm resists and you have to wait another 6 seconds. 6 seconds is just far too long in my opinion because in 6 seconds a lot can happen.

3. Lower the resist chance of spells when the pet got released and is in recently charmed state.
The minstrel should be able to break CC of the pet with his DDs reliable.
Since the Minstrel did not have to use his DDs to often to break the mezz or the root/snare it would be nice if those 2 dds were a good opportunity to use them for.
For example here are 3 resist chances on the DDs with a MOF 3:
Level 58 pet - 27%
Level 55 pet - 19.5%
Level 51 pet - 12.5%
Since some of you might thing that is a good thing because you get a negative influence of having a higher pet it might seem to be logical but in general those changes which were made were done without changing other bad things.

4. Increase resist chance of spells when pet is charmed. (Related to 3.)
Since the Minstrel pet is not as dangerous as it was before an adjustment to the resist rate of spells wouldn't hurt too much.
If the pet is charmed the resist rate for spells drops which make it much easier to nuke it down or land cc on it.
Increasing the resist rates would make it harder to kill the pet or cc the pet.
Since it is really easy outplay a Minstrel nowadays it would be a proper solution in my opinion.

5. Increase the miss chance when pet is charmed or in recently charmed state.
The miss chance on a level 57 pet is around 22-25% percent. If you use a proper style it drops down to 10-15% or lower I am not sure about that but around that.
Just a change to make pets more sturdy against melees.

@Devs it would be really nice if you could consider adjusting anything to make the Minstrel more enjoyable to play because in it current state it is really annoying watching after you pet all the time because it can be snared all the time, it moves slower than sprint and gets even slower with disease so it becomes useless really quick at the moment. With the perma charm you wanted to make the Minstrel easier to play for casuals and you achieved that but with the CC change it makes it much harder to be useful if you are a beginner so it would be nice to see adjustments happen.

It’s still the most best/op class in the game.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 6:19 AM by Astaa

Not sure if serious.jpeg

Tue 11 Aug 2020 6:22 AM by tommccartney

No

Tue 11 Aug 2020 7:19 AM by Lollie

Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
@Devs it would be really nice if you could consider adjusting anything to make the Minstrel more enjoyable to play because in it current state it is really annoying watching after you pet all the time because it can be snared all the time, it moves slower than sprint and gets even slower with disease so it becomes useless really quick at the moment. With the perma charm you wanted to make the Minstrel easier to play for casuals and you achieved that but with the CC change it makes it much harder to be useful if you are a beginner so it would be nice to see adjustments happen.

This has to be a troll post. A class with a pet complaing he has to actually manage it, and that it gets snared and diseased etc....

Tue 11 Aug 2020 8:12 AM by Lucifeur

Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
First of all: Those adjustments are just suggestions and do not to be considered an all together adjustment.
Second of all: I mainly play 8v8, so all my suggestions are based on what I experience in 8v8.
For those Minstrel haters: Please search another thread to publish your rubbish.

I have been playing the Minstrel a lot after the recent changes and from my point of view the Minstrel needs a few adjustments which the devs probably did not think about when they did all the changes.

1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go.
Since the pet can't break CC on the minstrel anymore it happens a lot that the minstrel loses his pet and enemies can kill it really quickly.
For example if an enemy with a 2 hand swings at it for 200 damage it will cause 600 damage in total on a recently released pet.
If the enemy hits for 200 damage + 100 damage crit it will cause 900 damage.
So basically they are able to kill a pet in 3-4 swings alone. If you have 3 melees on it it will die in 1-3 seconds.

- This shouldn't exist in RVR/PVP scenarios against players, period.

2. Lower charm cooldown so 3 seconds
At the moment it is only viable to play with a pet which resists by 5%. 15% is okay too but imagine having your pet lost for 12 seconds being in danger getting killed by enemies really quick, which would happen more often due to resist. For example if you are stunned for 9 seconds, your charm resists and you have to wait another 6 seconds. 6 seconds is just far too long in my opinion because in 6 seconds a lot can happen.
- This one is the biggie. It takes SO much time to get your pet after losing charm if it resists, there's no reason a minstrel should have to spend 30+ seconds throughout a fight trying to charm its pet. A must need change.

3. Lower the resist chance of spells when the pet got released and is in recently charmed state.
The minstrel should be able to break CC of the pet with his DDs reliable.
Since the Minstrel did not have to use his DDs to often to break the mezz or the root/snare it would be nice if those 2 dds were a good opportunity to use them for.
For example here are 3 resist chances on the DDs with a MOF 3:
Level 58 pet - 27%
Level 55 pet - 19.5%
Level 51 pet - 12.5%
Since some of you might thing that is a good thing because you get a negative influence of having a higher pet it might seem to be logical but in general those changes which were made were done without changing other bad things.
- This could go both ways, it benefits the minstrel's opponents as they can strategize to take out the mini's pet when, e.g. the minstrel is mezzed and the pet is stunned; meaning the enemy would have to use skill/technique to have an advantage rather than the minstrel being at a 100% disadvantage all the time.

4. Increase resist chance of spells when pet is charmed. (Related to 3.)
Since the Minstrel pet is not as dangerous as it was before an adjustment to the resist rate of spells wouldn't hurt too much.
If the pet is charmed the resist rate for spells drops which make it much easier to nuke it down or land cc on it.
Increasing the resist rates would make it harder to kill the pet or cc the pet.
Since it is really easy outplay a Minstrel nowadays it would be a proper solution in my opinion.
- This makes it seem that DEVs really hate the minstrel, why should a MOB get WEAKER when charmed?

5. Increase the miss chance when pet is charmed or in recently charmed state.
The miss chance on a level 57 pet is around 22-25% percent. If you use a proper style it drops down to 10-15% or lower I am not sure about that but around that.
Just a change to make pets more sturdy against melees.

- My only argument here is if the pet's miss chance is DECREASED after charm (similar to #4) I don't see why a MINSTREL charming a mob automatically means the pet is weakened.

@Devs it would be really nice if you could consider adjusting anything to make the Minstrel more enjoyable to play because in it current state it is really annoying watching after you pet all the time because it can be snared all the time, it moves slower than sprint and gets even slower with disease so it becomes useless really quick at the moment. With the perma charm you wanted to make the Minstrel easier to play for casuals and you achieved that but with the CC change it makes it much harder to be useful if you are a beginner so it would be nice to see adjustments happen.

I don't get the unnecessary comments like "no" or "you're trolling" with no valid argument. This appears to be a clearly inadvertent approach to the issues at hand and proves some people want to have an automatic advantage and in no regards to balancing the war. Just my 2 cents.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 9:24 AM by Fantasii

Disclaimer; I play a minstrel myself so my opinion will of course be biased. I have not played this class anywhere close to the amount of time Leroy has, but I have played it enough to at least qualify to see the points from the minstrel perspective.

Before I start giving my own take on the numbered suggestions, I would like to give a general answer to everyone who screams “Minstrel OP”. Yes – I will admit that it is a strong class, IF you play it correctly. Before these changes, your output (performance) was a directly correlated to the input (your skill and ability to play), but now you can (and will) get outplayed even if you play the class close to optimal. I therefore want you all to at least take a second to consider that before you cry “nerf, nerf, nerf – OP, OP, OP!!”. Do my sanity a favor and read the text in red font, it is the first sentence of the post.

1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go

The fact that tinder damage add works in RvR is beyond me. This means that the correct way to approach a fight is to drop a fire before you engage. I cannot understand that this is intended.

2. Lower charm cooldown so 3 seconds

I will not keep hammering on an already good point, but rather add another example as to why the cooldown needs to be reduced. Let us picture the same scenario where you either lose the pet due to being CC yourself, or you release the pet (more on that later). One of the main tools of the minstrel is the ability to use the flute. In an 8v8 situation ONE of your main jobs is to cover CC on people that your other group members cannot reach. It will now be 12 seconds before your own pet is no longer trying to interrupt you. Yes – you can still get flute mezzes off, but it becomes a lot more annoying. Which, when I think about it now, is the core of the problem. The cooldown is just annoying and reducing the cooldown to 3 seconds would make it 50% less annoying at least. Being able to release and charm the pet over and over is one of the reasons the minstrel can be in an awkward position without getting left behind – which can have huge consequences for your group in a fight.

3. Lower the resist chance of spells when the pet got released and is in recently charmed state.

Playing the minstrel after the “release change” (release does not break CC) is the equivalent of walking a dog in the morning that wants to sniff everything it walks past, while you have places to be and deadlines to meet. Please make it so that we do not have to rely on luck to keep the dog walking. If I am using one (or both) of my DD cooldowns to keep the pet moving, it should not get resisted at the current rate.

I do not have anything to add to points 4 and 5, so I will not write something just for the sake of writing. I do agree on the points being made.

Thank you for doing all these tests Leroy. I know you spent a lot of time to make this post, and I urge people to think about that before you make a snarky one-word reply to this post for the purpose of appearing funny. It is a good discussion to have since the minstrel is slowly becoming less relevant, and people contemplating cutting it from group setups. The only thing we really have left to defend our spot is Speed of Sound, and speed while running.

I wish everyone a great day, and please remember to stay safe 😊

Tue 11 Aug 2020 10:57 AM by

gruenesschaf

Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go.
Since the pet can't break CC on the minstrel anymore it happens a lot that the minstrel loses his pet and enemies can kill it really quickly.
For example if an enemy with a 2 hand swings at it for 200 damage it will cause 600 damage in total on a recently released pet.
If the enemy hits for 200 damage + 100 damage crit it will cause 900 damage.
So basically they are able to kill a pet in 3-4 swings alone. If you have 3 melees on it it will die in 1-3 seconds.

Tinder is not supposed to work against pets at all, including recently released pets (15 seconds). Will be fixed next reboot.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:07 PM by gotwqqd

Lucifeur wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 8:12 AM
Lerox wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 12:49 AM
First of all: Those adjustments are just suggestions and do not to be considered an all together adjustment.
Second of all: I mainly play 8v8, so all my suggestions are based on what I experience in 8v8.
For those Minstrel haters: Please search another thread to publish your rubbish.

I have been playing the Minstrel a lot after the recent changes and from my point of view the Minstrel needs a few adjustments which the devs probably did not think about when they did all the changes.

1. Decrease the tinder damage add to recently released pets down to 100% in a full group instead of 200%, or even remove it since it is effecting RvR which is kinda a no go.
Since the pet can't break CC on the minstrel anymore it happens a lot that the minstrel loses his pet and enemies can kill it really quickly.
For example if an enemy with a 2 hand swings at it for 200 damage it will cause 600 damage in total on a recently released pet.
If the enemy hits for 200 damage + 100 damage crit it will cause 900 damage.
So basically they are able to kill a pet in 3-4 swings alone. If you have 3 melees on it it will die in 1-3 seconds.

- This shouldn't exist in RVR/PVP scenarios against players, period.

2. Lower charm cooldown so 3 seconds
At the moment it is only viable to play with a pet which resists by 5%. 15% is okay too but imagine having your pet lost for 12 seconds being in danger getting killed by enemies really quick, which would happen more often due to resist. For example if you are stunned for 9 seconds, your charm resists and you have to wait another 6 seconds. 6 seconds is just far too long in my opinion because in 6 seconds a lot can happen.
- This one is the biggie. It takes SO much time to get your pet after losing charm if it resists, there's no reason a minstrel should have to spend 30+ seconds throughout a fight trying to charm its pet. A must need change.

3. Lower the resist chance of spells when the pet got released and is in recently charmed state.
The minstrel should be able to break CC of the pet with his DDs reliable.
Since the Minstrel did not have to use his DDs to often to break the mezz or the root/snare it would be nice if those 2 dds were a good opportunity to use them for.
For example here are 3 resist chances on the DDs with a MOF 3:
Level 58 pet - 27%
Level 55 pet - 19.5%
Level 51 pet - 12.5%
Since some of you might thing that is a good thing because you get a negative influence of having a higher pet it might seem to be logical but in general those changes which were made were done without changing other bad things.
- This could go both ways, it benefits the minstrel's opponents as they can strategize to take out the mini's pet when, e.g. the minstrel is mezzed and the pet is stunned; meaning the enemy would have to use skill/technique to have an advantage rather than the minstrel being at a 100% disadvantage all the time.

4. Increase resist chance of spells when pet is charmed. (Related to 3.)
Since the Minstrel pet is not as dangerous as it was before an adjustment to the resist rate of spells wouldn't hurt too much.
If the pet is charmed the resist rate for spells drops which make it much easier to nuke it down or land cc on it.
Increasing the resist rates would make it harder to kill the pet or cc the pet.
Since it is really easy outplay a Minstrel nowadays it would be a proper solution in my opinion.
- This makes it seem that DEVs really hate the minstrel, why should a MOB get WEAKER when charmed?

5. Increase the miss chance when pet is charmed or in recently charmed state.
The miss chance on a level 57 pet is around 22-25% percent. If you use a proper style it drops down to 10-15% or lower I am not sure about that but around that.
Just a change to make pets more sturdy against melees.

- My only argument here is if the pet's miss chance is DECREASED after charm (similar to #4) I don't see why a MINSTREL charming a mob automatically means the pet is weakened.

@Devs it would be really nice if you could consider adjusting anything to make the Minstrel more enjoyable to play because in it current state it is really annoying watching after you pet all the time because it can be snared all the time, it moves slower than sprint and gets even slower with disease so it becomes useless really quick at the moment. With the perma charm you wanted to make the Minstrel easier to play for casuals and you achieved that but with the CC change it makes it much harder to be useful if you are a beginner so it would be nice to see adjustments happen.
I don't get the unnecessary comments like "no" or "you're trolling" with no valid argument. This appears to be a clearly inadvertent approach to the issues at hand and proves some people want to have an automatic advantage and in no regards to balancing the war. Just my 2 cents.

So.... no.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:26 PM by Forlornhope

It seems most of your issues with the pet are things literally every other pet class has been dealing with forever, welcome to being balanced.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 3:06 PM by Fantasii

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:26 PM
It seems most of your issues with the pet are things literally every other pet class has been dealing with forever, welcome to being balanced.

Basing this off your little signature there. Would you say that pet mechanics on a druid, and on a minstrel are of equal importance - in an 8v8 setting specifically?

Tue 11 Aug 2020 5:38 PM by Iuppiter

I like the 3s cooldown (or even less IMO) for the charm. As you mention, if the mob happens to resist the first charm post-cc dropping (or whatever situation caused charm to fall) then it's really prohibitive to wait another 6s...not to mention that if they start beating on your pet, pet drops charm, then resists the next pulse - it's damn near impossible to keep the pet since the healers can't even heal it for that entire 6s+ even if they're totally free. Additionally, I would say that the cooldown should not restart if the target is "invalid" - affecting niche situations where you're stealing a pet from a friend/enemy.

The rest of the suggestions I'm less certain about. I understand why the red pet is "nerfed" (which btw most people probably don't even realize), but asking for higher resist rates when charmed, but not when recently charmed sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It should be consistent in my opinion - either always the "normal" mob resist rate for that level, or always the "charmed" lowered resist rate - because that implies a trade-off in risk. Also swinging your weapon at the pet breaks CC as well, so the increased miss rate could actually hurt your ability to keep the pet free.

It's interesting to see other minstrel opinions. I made a post in suggestions that had some decent feedback from non-minstrel players, but it was primarily focused on the minstrel itself and not the pet. Perhaps this is a better solution - buffing/restoring the pet to normal resist/miss rates for its level.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 6:59 PM by Lerox

Iuppiter wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 5:38 PM
I like the 3s cooldown (or even less IMO) for the charm. As you mention, if the mob happens to resist the first charm post-cc dropping (or whatever situation caused charm to fall) then it's really prohibitive to wait another 6s...not to mention that if they start beating on your pet, pet drops charm, then resists the next pulse - it's damn near impossible to keep the pet since the healers can't even heal it for that entire 6s+ even if they're totally free. Additionally, I would say that the cooldown should not restart if the target is "invalid" - affecting niche situations where you're stealing a pet from a friend/enemy.

The rest of the suggestions I'm less certain about. I understand why the red pet is "nerfed" (which btw most people probably don't even realize), but asking for higher resist rates when charmed, but not when recently charmed sounds like wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It should be consistent in my opinion - either always the "normal" mob resist rate for that level, or always the "charmed" lowered resist rate - because that implies a trade-off in risk. Also swinging your weapon at the pet breaks CC as well, so the increased miss rate could actually hurt your ability to keep the pet free.

It's interesting to see other minstrel opinions. I made a post in suggestions that had some decent feedback from non-minstrel players, but it was primarily focused on the minstrel itself and not the pet. Perhaps this is a better solution - buffing/restoring the pet to normal resist/miss rates for its level.

Thanks for your feedback and I already stated mentioned in my post that those are only suggestions which aren't meant to be included all at once.

"First of all: Those adjustments are just suggestions and do not to be considered an all together adjustment. "

A big problem is that the charm song cancels when you release your pet, so everytime you try to break the CC of your pet you really have to recast it and not wait for the next tick on the pet. I've added that to my post.

Unfortunately not many minstrels comment on those minstrel threads and mainly others who "suffer" from the minstrel write something.
But I am thankful for every involvement besides those who do not really have anything substantial to say.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 7:13 PM by evert

I have a big problem on my class too, sometimes people manage to run away from me, they do more damage than me, sometimes I even die. This is really annoying so hopefully the DEVs can do something to fix it and make it more fun for me to play the game.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 7:44 PM by Iuppiter

Lerox wrote: I already stated mentioned in my post that those are only suggestions which aren't meant to be included all at once.

My mistake, then I think we're on the same page, trying to get consistency with resist/miss rates.

evert wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 7:13 PM
I have a big problem on my class too, sometimes people manage to run away from me, they do more damage than me, sometimes I even die. This is really annoying so hopefully the DEVs can do something to fix it and make it more fun for me to play the game.

If devs had subscribed to this mentality then minstrels would not have been altered in the first place. If you think providing perspective on custom changes to a class equates to just whining, then you're ignorant at best.

Tue 11 Aug 2020 9:30 PM by Forlornhope

Fantasii wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 3:06 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:26 PM
It seems most of your issues with the pet are things literally every other pet class has been dealing with forever, welcome to being balanced.

Basing this off your little signature there. Would you say that pet mechanics on a druid, and on a minstrel are of equal importance - in an 8v8 setting specifically?

What does that have to do with anything? You think that I've never played any other pet class or something? The only thing he has said that has any merit is the tinder working on the pets, which Greuns fixed. Everything else is just him complaining about things that other pet classes deal with on a daily basis. Most mins players relied on their op pet for a year and now that they're actually have some sort of balance they think they're entitled to some compensation. It's stupid, just like your comment.

Wed 12 Aug 2020 8:21 AM by Fantasii

Forlornhope wrote:
Fantasii wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 3:06 PM
Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:26 PM
It seems most of your issues with the pet are things literally every other pet class has been dealing with forever, welcome to being balanced.

Basing this off your little signature there. Would you say that pet mechanics on a druid, and on a minstrel are of equal importance - in an 8v8 setting specifically?

What does that have to do with anything? You think that I've never played any other pet class or something? The only thing he has said that has any merit is the tinder working on the pets, which Greuns fixed. Everything else is just him complaining about things that other pet classes deal with on a daily basis. Most mins players relied on their op pet for a year and now that they're actually have some sort of balance they think they're entitled to some compensation. It's stupid, just like your comment.

It was not a comment, it was a question - which you did not answer at all.

Nobody is trying to get the pet changes reverted or "compensated" for. The discussion is about the release and charm mechanics, which only ONE other pet class has and that is the mentalist. The difference is that the mentalist plays in a completely different position so the mentalist have alot more time to get his pet out of CC and such. Also if it does get CCed then the mentalist can still break it with release, so no problem. The fact that you put all the "pet classes" in one big giant pool tells me you either haven't played a minstrel/mentalist, or you have no clue what you are talking about. And we are, again, talking in about this in an 8v8 scenario. Not solo, not BG keep takes - 8v8.

Let me say it again so that it is perfectly clear;

It is not about reverting changes, or making it "OP". It's about changing a few things to have it make a little more sense.

Fri 14 Aug 2020 9:50 PM by teiloh

Forlornhope wrote: ↑
Tue 11 Aug 2020 1:26 PM
It seems most of your issues with the pet are things literally every other pet class has been dealing with forever, welcome to being balanced.

Seems like most of your issues are literally "issues" as in player skill or mental ones. Caster pets do not have to be managed or twisted at all and are often stronger than Minstrel pets because mobs and charmed pets here have been repeatedly nerfed. A blue baseline Enchanter pet literally does 2x the ranged DPS of a level 53 Ellyl and snares to boot.

Welcome to reality.

Fri 14 Aug 2020 10:21 PM by LolaEbola

I’m a little confused, so maybe somebody can help me.

Why are we talking about these changes in the context of 8 mans as though they exist in a void, and any changes won’t have effects on solos ?

Any conversation about changes to a class, in my view, needs to be structured around *overall* play in all situations.

Having the argument from a pure 8v8 standpoint just doesn’t feel to me like a useful discussion.

Fri 14 Aug 2020 11:58 PM by teiloh

LolaEbola wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Aug 2020 10:21 PM
I’m a little confused, so maybe somebody can help me.

Why are we talking about these changes in the context of 8 mans as though they exist in a void, and any changes won’t have effects on solos ?

Any conversation about changes to a class, in my view, needs to be structured around *overall* play in all situations.

Having the argument from a pure 8v8 standpoint just doesn’t feel to me like a useful discussion.

Because 1v1 balance is largely inconsequential. Unless you want to delete assassins, archers and bonedancers.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:17 AM by Lerox

LolaEbola wrote: ↑
Fri 14 Aug 2020 10:21 PM
I’m a little confused, so maybe somebody can help me.

Why are we talking about these changes in the context of 8 mans as though they exist in a void, and any changes won’t have effects on solos ?

Any conversation about changes to a class, in my view, needs to be structured around *overall* play in all situations.

Having the argument from a pure 8v8 standpoint just doesn’t feel to me like a useful discussion.

Most changes in the past were done because the Minstrel was too OP in solo and therefor they tried to get the Minstrel down to a level to be able to beaten in 1v1. (My opinion) They added the perma charm, flood of solo minstrels came in, another nerf came, a lot of solo minstrels quit again. (my pov)

Since the recent changes effect the 8vX fights mostly and especially 8v8 because your enemies know what they do I am speaking for in the context of 8v8.

I know that I am kinda biased here but there were a lot of nerfes on the minstrel on Phoenix and at the moment the Minstrel is really annoying to play because you have to take care of your pet always so that the pet doesn't end to be useless. The Minstrel had a quite offensive role in a group and the latest changes forcing them to play way more defensive so the role changed.

In the end Phoenix supports solo, smallman, 8v8, 8vX, 16vX, etc and I don't see any reason not asking for adjustments when it comes from a 8v8 player which don't see many of the other playstyles but I am for sure that my points could be transferred to other playstyles too.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:26 PM by joshisanonymous

1) Thought that was just a bug when I read it, so glad it was fixed so quickly.

2) I think the original change was the devs' attempt at implementing a counter to the whole unlimited pet&minstrel purge issue in that it was supposed to make the gap in time between releasing and recharming longer so that the pet could be CC'd during that time. My experience from solo play was that it was still effectively impossible to lock down a pet, but I'm not sure how it worked out in 8v8. In any case, if that was the whole point, it's basically moot now, so I don't see why it can't be revisited. (No opinion on how/if it should be ultimately changed.)

3) I don't like this suggestion. As someone else said, you can use melee to break charm in cases where your DDs resist. On top of that, the higher resist rate on high level mobs seems like a good, nuanced way to add some downsides to charming very high level mobs. If they started doing things that made it more convenient to have the higher level pets, people would be more likely to start complaining about pet levels again and you'd be more likely to see a much less nuanced approach to dealing with those complaints, like a hard cap on max level for charming.

4) This would go a long way to undoing the effects of the recent pet release change, especially if combined with suggestion (3). As someone else mentioned, this is like eating your cake and having it too.

5) Not sure what to think of this one since I don't play melee nor 8v8, seems like it would greatly depend on the pet. Some pets already seem very sturdy against, well, anything, whereas other are useful but are much more realistic to take down.

6) Same response as for (2). In general, this seems to be the area where it would be most reasonable to look at minstrel mechanics again if anything is to be changed at all.

You mentioned in (4) that it's really easy to outplay minstrels now. Just wanted to say that, at least in solo play, it is definitely not easy to outplay a minstrel that knows what they're doing or to kill a minstrel that doesn't know what they're doing. Against most classes, minstrels can reset fights multiple times if they need to, forcing their enemy to blow through timed abilities and such until the minstrel has the upperhand and, ultimately, making it so they only die if they overcommit. The ones who don't know how to reset fights well typically just SoS away immediately any time they're caught off-guard and never come back. Personally, from a solo perspective, I think they're in a good place right now.

Sat 15 Aug 2020 7:04 PM by Lerox

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 15 Aug 2020 12:26 PM
1) Thought that was just a bug when I read it, so glad it was fixed so quickly.

2) I think the original change was the devs' attempt at implementing a counter to the whole unlimited pet&minstrel purge issue in that it was supposed to make the gap in time between releasing and recharming longer so that the pet could be CC'd during that time. My experience from solo play was that it was still effectively impossible to lock down a pet, but I'm not sure how it worked out in 8v8. In any case, if that was the whole point, it's basically moot now, so I don't see why it can't be revisited. (No opinion on how/if it should be ultimately changed.)

3) I don't like this suggestion. As someone else said, you can use melee to break charm in cases where your DDs resist. On top of that, the higher resist rate on high level mobs seems like a good, nuanced way to add some downsides to charming very high level mobs. If they started doing things that made it more convenient to have the higher level pets, people would be more likely to start complaining about pet levels again and you'd be more likely to see a much less nuanced approach to dealing with those complaints, like a hard cap on max level for charming.

4) This would go a long way to undoing the effects of the recent pet release change, especially if combined with suggestion (3). As someone else mentioned, this is like eating your cake and having it too.

5) Not sure what to think of this one since I don't play melee nor 8v8, seems like it would greatly depend on the pet. Some pets already seem very sturdy against, well, anything, whereas other are useful but are much more realistic to take down.

6) Same response as for (2). In general, this seems to be the area where it would be most reasonable to look at minstrel mechanics again if anything is to be changed at all.

You mentioned in (4) that it's really easy to outplay minstrels now. Just wanted to say that, at least in solo play, it is definitely not easy to outplay a minstrel that knows what they're doing or to kill a minstrel that doesn't know what they're doing. Against most classes, minstrels can reset fights multiple times if they need to, forcing their enemy to blow through timed abilities and such until the minstrel has the upperhand and, ultimately, making it so they only die if they overcommit. The ones who don't know how to reset fights well typically just SoS away immediately any time they're caught off-guard and never come back. Personally, from a solo perspective, I think they're in a good place right now.

Thank you very much for your proper reply. I totally agree that 3, 4 and even 5 are some suggestions which does not really fit into but I thought 1 was intended and with few of these changes it would be harder to get the minstrel in the position to lose pet and getting killed afterwards furthermore those suggestions were not meant to be an all in one change.
Those changes made the minstrel more unpleasant to play and maybe I am the only one who is whining about that and minstrel is now just a more defensive player in the group. But in the group you have to take care about your pet so much it annoys me a lot and if I don't care about it I have to leave it alone and take in account that I get cc'd out.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 12:22 AM by Lerox

Bump

Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:00 AM by

gruenesschaf

The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay, therefore #2 and #6 are unlikely to change without adding in something that provides about the same cost.

Everything else is basically related to pet durability except the spell resist part where you are asking for a lower resist rate to break cc yet a higher resist rate to increase the durability, special casing the minstrel regarding its former pet will definitely not happen.
As for pet durability in general, it doesn't really seem like there are too many voices calling for sturdier pets in general or minstrel specifically.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:57 AM by Lerox

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:00 AM
The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay, therefore #2 and #6 are unlikely to change without adding in something that provides about the same cost.

Everything else is basically related to pet durability except the spell resist part where you are asking for a lower resist rate to break cc yet a higher resist rate to increase the durability, special casing the minstrel regarding its former pet will definitely not happen.
As for pet durability in general, it doesn't really seem like there are too many voices calling for sturdier pets in general or minstrel specifically.

Thanks for an answer and a clarification from your point of view.
I still disagree with the intentional counterplay window which should be created with the 6 second cooldown on recharm and the cancelation of the charm on release.
At the current state the minstrel is much easier to counter and being limited by those nerfs which came over and over again just makes it annoying to play. I am regarding to 8v8 mostly because in my opinion it affects that playstyle. From my point of view it does not really change the solo power of the minstrel, at least that is what I feel and others stated to me.

I can clearly understand that the minstrel is a strong class and 8v8 is not the only thing on this server but I would be grateful if you could take in consideration adjust something.

In addition I have to mention that there was a reason why so many people did not like to play the minstrel before the perma charm change even when it was more powerful and more annoying back in the days.
When you added the perma charm a lot of people tried the minstrel because it became much more easier to take care of it. Basically a small buff of the minstrel in my opinion because now you can run charm and abla at the same time and you didn't have to worry about your pet anymore that you lost it.
With the next changes including a huge nerf the minstrel were put in a different position in a group because for now on you can't play as offensive as before. Furthermore you have to watch for your pet that much and handle it that it might become stressful. I have no numbers or anything but in my opinion the class itself became much harder to play for beginners and I could believe that players already dislike to play the class.

Fri 11 Sep 2020 9:08 AM by Astaa

Fins as pets.

lol

Yeah, they have already said they don't want to fix anything...for reasons.

Sun 13 Sep 2020 3:14 AM by Nephamael

Basing this off your little signature there. Would you say that pet mechanics on a druid, and on a minstrel are of equal importance - in an 8v8 setting specifically?

Yes it is true, minst is just one of many pet users - minst has the ability to instant charm a nearby mob if the pet dies, no other pet class can do that, at least they have to cast a interruptable spell.

A Minstrel without a pet still makes an insane interrupt and cc impact in 8v8, you are the best example @Leroy.

Also killing a pet takes a lot of power off castergroups and time and pressure off tankgroups - it is a much bigger investment than killing a BD mainpet and if it gets single healed against can even fail.

------------------
The only point i can fully support is quality of life for breaking pet cc - i'd even support a 100% break pet mezz rate with dd.
------------------
As far as i know it is no problem to charm and recharm an orange pet for low and mid rr minstrels. (oj is all you need to break moc!!!)
One could argue for a 100% charmrate (no resists) of pets lvl50+rr/2. So a rr10 minst could charm a lvl55 mob with 0% resistrate. Every lvl higher 5% resistrate could be added - same could be applied for ment.
------------------
Also we have to keep in mind buffing minstrels should probably be done after buffing wardens and bards first who would be replaced in every group, if speed6 and body resist were available from another source.

Mon 14 Sep 2020 2:40 PM by Spiegal

The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay,

This is exactly the point. You guys have options, pet spec class doesn't.
In fact it would be more logical for pet spec class to have pet counter spell to help them against CC in the spirit of roleplay, as losing your pet means being in a subpar state, or taking the time and power pool to recast a new one (for BD it's 1 min with 75% power pool) it's almost impossible in the middle of the fight.

Fear my lvl 41 pet vs your lvl 55 and up... yes they die in 2-3 hit. Most of the 8v8 I do, the opposition is killing the commander right away, else If I let the pet near me, I get aoe mezz right away as they have literally 0% resist against CC.

For the sake of balancing, please accept the class challenges and drawback.

Mon 14 Sep 2020 8:18 PM by gotwqqd

Spiegal wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Sep 2020 2:40 PM
The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay,

This is exactly the point. You guys have options, pet spec class doesn't.
In fact it would be more logical for pet spec class to have pet counter spell to help them against CC in the spirit of roleplay, as losing your pet means being in a subpar state, or taking the time and power pool to recast a new one (for BD it's 1 min with 75% power pool) it's almost impossible in the middle of the fight.

Fear my lvl 41 pet vs your lvl 55 and up... yes they die in 2-3 hit. Most of the 8v8 I do, the opposition is killing the commander right away, else If I let the pet near me, I get aoe mezz right away as they have literally 0% resist against CC.

For the sake of balancing, please accept the class challenges and drawback.

Pet spec classes have far more options(except maybe enchanter) Don’t they all have multiple forms of CC?
Other classes aren’t necessarily defined by their pet.
And have other tools at their disposal

Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:35 PM by teiloh

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:00 AM
The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay, therefore #2 and #6 are unlikely to change without adding in something that provides about the same cost.

Everything else is basically related to pet durability except the spell resist part where you are asking for a lower resist rate to break cc yet a higher resist rate to increase the durability, special casing the minstrel regarding its former pet will definitely not happen.
As for pet durability in general, it doesn't really seem like there are too many voices calling for sturdier pets in general or minstrel specifically.

Isn't the Mentalist version still a "no cost" CC break? And the mentalist has a far easier time handling a pet.

Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:47 PM by Bradekes

teiloh wrote: ↑
Tue 15 Sep 2020 6:35 PM
gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 11 Sep 2020 1:00 AM
The intention behind the charm cooldown and pulse cancellation on pet release is to make the self cc break have a cost / to create a window of counterplay, therefore #2 and #6 are unlikely to change without adding in something that provides about the same cost.

Everything else is basically related to pet durability except the spell resist part where you are asking for a lower resist rate to break cc yet a higher resist rate to increase the durability, special casing the minstrel regarding its former pet will definitely not happen.
As for pet durability in general, it doesn't really seem like there are too many voices calling for sturdier pets in general or minstrel specifically.

Isn't the Mentalist version still a "no cost" CC break? And the mentalist has a far easier time handling a pet.

For one, mentalist charm is not instant. For two, mentalist charm costs power per pulse, unlike minstrel. And three, mentalist wears cloth so if it is getting hit by a red mob it will have a much greater impact seeings the mentalist will also be interrupted from casting after being hit.

If anything it would help fix minstrel if they had pp usage on their charm so they couldn't just kite you and dd forever. Minstrel are still OP if you don't think so you've been playing one too long.

I'm very curious as you stated that mentalist have an easier time managing their pet, I'd really like your explanation to that statement, as you failed elaborate as to how or why that would be the case.

Tue 15 Sep 2020 10:16 PM by Spiegal

gotwqqd wrote: ↑
Mon 14 Sep 2020 8:18 PM
Pet spec classes have far more options(except maybe enchanter) Don’t they all have multiple forms of CC?
Other classes aren’t necessarily defined by their pet.
And have other tools at their disposal

In this context we are talking about the "release" option to un CC their pet.
No they don't have multiple form of CC

BD only has root and snare (which work against each other) and so is the cabalist

Wed 16 Sep 2020 1:45 AM by Expfighter

i know i am late to the conversation on minstrels, but the ONLY solution that works is removing the pet all together and removing stealth from them!

there fixed!

Wed 16 Sep 2020 2:20 AM by Spiegal

I dont think there's much solution to this. It's a situation that mythic created. Having a class that can charm high level pet with no drawback while other pet class has limitation on level or charm. The devs are in the spiral from the very beginning the moment they created the server.
I would normalize all pet level but that's my opinion

Wed 16 Sep 2020 2:48 AM by gotwqqd

Expfighter wrote: ↑
Wed 16 Sep 2020 1:45 AM
i know i am late to the conversation on minstrels, but the ONLY solution that works is removing the pet all together and removing stealth from them!

there fixed!

And you have quite possibly the worse class on all realms

Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:45 AM by Nephamael

Pet spec classes have far more options(except maybe enchanter) Don’t they all have multiple forms of CC?
Other classes aren’t necessarily defined by their pet.
And have other tools at their disposal

Minstrel has the most cc of all pet owning/charming classes. (mezz, stun, snare)

Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:40 AM by Lokkjim

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:45 AM
Pet spec classes have far more options(except maybe enchanter) Don’t they all have multiple forms of CC?
Other classes aren’t necessarily defined by their pet.
And have other tools at their disposal

Minstrel has the most cc of all pet owning/charming classes. (mezz, stun, snare)

If you're gonna count a melee snare you might as well count the pet abilities of some classes.

Cabalist gets Root, Snare, and pet stun.
Spiritmaster gets Root, Mez, and pet stun and pet snare.
Theurgist gets Root, Mez, and pet stun and pet snare.

So now SMs and theurgs have the most CC of all pet owning/charming classes.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM by Bradekes

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:40 AM
Nephamael wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:45 AM
Pet spec classes have far more options(except maybe enchanter) Don’t they all have multiple forms of CC?
Other classes aren’t necessarily defined by their pet.
And have other tools at their disposal

Minstrel has the most cc of all pet owning/charming classes. (mezz, stun, snare)

If you're gonna count a melee snare you might as well count the pet abilities of some classes.

Cabalist gets Root, Snare, and pet stun.
Spiritmaster gets Root, Mez, and pet stun and pet snare.
Theurgist gets Root, Mez, and pet stun and pet snare.

So now SMs and theurgs have the most CC of all pet owning/charming classes.

What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM by Lokkjim

Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM
What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Which frontiers pet roots? I'm sure a lot of people would like to know of a pet that can do more CC than a snare. I'm not sure if there is a charmable pet that snares because I don't play a charming class, but I think there is.

Darkness Spiritmaster gets AoE mez, PBAoE Mez, Single target mez, Root, quickcast CC, Pet stun. The only thing they don't get is a pet snare.

Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:28 AM by ExcretusMaximus

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Which frontiers pet roots?

Icestriders in Mid.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:45 AM by Lokkjim

ExcretusMaximus wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:28 AM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Which frontiers pet roots?

Icestriders in Mid.

Thanks for the info. I just realized that even if a minstrel does have a pet to root, it doesn't really help him at all. Maybe help escape but I don't think that's the point of this argument.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:23 PM by joshisanonymous

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM
What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Which frontiers pet roots? I'm sure a lot of people would like to know of a pet that can do more CC than a snare. I'm not sure if there is a charmable pet that snares because I don't play a charming class, but I think there is.

Darkness Spiritmaster gets AoE mez, PBAoE Mez, Single target mez, Root, quickcast CC, Pet stun. The only thing they don't get is a pet snare.

Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class.

Why on earth are you including three delivery methods of one CC as three different CCs? And why is "quickcast CC" on this list?

Honestly, it's baffling to me that someone would take up the argument that minstrels don't have strong CC abilities independent of their pet. I don't even feel like it requires a counter-argument as it's just that absurd of a stance.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:29 PM by Bradekes

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:23 PM
Why on earth are you including three delivery methods of one CC as three different CCs? And why is "quickcast CC" on this list?

Honestly, it's baffling to me that someone would take up the argument that minstrels don't have strong CC abilities independent of their pet. I don't even feel like it requires a counter-argument as it's just that absurd of a stance.

I don't get it either.. minstrel is obviously a very strong and overpowered class.. no other class in the entire game gets so much utility from a single spec line.. anyone who can't see this earns the right to play as a minstrel because that is most likely all they would be capable of playing in this game.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 5:25 PM by Lokkjim

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:23 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM
What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Which frontiers pet roots? I'm sure a lot of people would like to know of a pet that can do more CC than a snare. I'm not sure if there is a charmable pet that snares because I don't play a charming class, but I think there is.

Darkness Spiritmaster gets AoE mez, PBAoE Mez, Single target mez, Root, quickcast CC, Pet stun. The only thing they don't get is a pet snare.

Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class.

Why on earth are you including three delivery methods of one CC as three different CCs? And why is "quickcast CC" on this list?

Honestly, it's baffling to me that someone would take up the argument that minstrels don't have strong CC abilities independent of their pet. I don't even feel like it requires a counter-argument as it's just that absurd of a stance.

If you read the quote you would see that I used three delivery methods of one CC because it was in response to Bradekes' multiple delivery methods of one CC.

Quickcast CC is on the list because it's an advantage like mez on the move.

I'm also not saying that a minstrel doesn't have strong CC abilities. I'm arguing that he doesn't have the most because, again, that's what Bradekes said.

Read the quotes before jumping to conclusions.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 5:58 PM by joshisanonymous

Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 5:25 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:23 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM
What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Which frontiers pet roots? I'm sure a lot of people would like to know of a pet that can do more CC than a snare. I'm not sure if there is a charmable pet that snares because I don't play a charming class, but I think there is.

Darkness Spiritmaster gets AoE mez, PBAoE Mez, Single target mez, Root, quickcast CC, Pet stun. The only thing they don't get is a pet snare.

Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class.

Why on earth are you including three delivery methods of one CC as three different CCs? And why is "quickcast CC" on this list?

Honestly, it's baffling to me that someone would take up the argument that minstrels don't have strong CC abilities independent of their pet. I don't even feel like it requires a counter-argument as it's just that absurd of a stance.

If you read the quote you would see that I used three delivery methods of one CC because it was in response to Bradekes' multiple delivery methods of one CC.

Quickcast CC is on the list because it's an advantage like mez on the move.

I'm also not saying that a minstrel doesn't have strong CC abilities. I'm arguing that he doesn't have the most because, again, that's what Bradekes said.

Read the quotes before jumping to conclusions.

If you think minstrels have strong CC abilities, then arguing over who has technically the greatest number of abilities was really moot. It also implied that you don't think minstrels have strong CC.

Thu 17 Sep 2020 6:25 PM by Lokkjim

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 5:58 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 5:25 PM
joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 1:23 PM
Lokkjim wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 4:03 AM
Bradekes wrote: ↑
Thu 17 Sep 2020 2:59 AM
What if a Minstrel charms a pet that roots... then again the minstrel is back on top.. Minstrel gets aoe and single target mezz also mezz while moving. Minstel gets all this in 1 spec line while you are adding the CC from multiple specs of the other pet classes.

Which frontiers pet roots? I'm sure a lot of people would like to know of a pet that can do more CC than a snare. I'm not sure if there is a charmable pet that snares because I don't play a charming class, but I think there is.

Darkness Spiritmaster gets AoE mez, PBAoE Mez, Single target mez, Root, quickcast CC, Pet stun. The only thing they don't get is a pet snare.

Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class.

Why on earth are you including three delivery methods of one CC as three different CCs? And why is "quickcast CC" on this list?

Honestly, it's baffling to me that someone would take up the argument that minstrels don't have strong CC abilities independent of their pet. I don't even feel like it requires a counter-argument as it's just that absurd of a stance.

If you read the quote you would see that I used three delivery methods of one CC because it was in response to Bradekes' multiple delivery methods of one CC.

Quickcast CC is on the list because it's an advantage like mez on the move.

I'm also not saying that a minstrel doesn't have strong CC abilities. I'm arguing that he doesn't have the most because, again, that's what Bradekes said.

Read the quotes before jumping to conclusions.

If you think minstrels have strong CC abilities, then arguing over who has technically the greatest number of abilities was really moot. It also implied that you don't think minstrels have strong CC.

How am I implying anything when I specifically state my stance at the end of my post (Minstrel still does not have the most CC of any pet owning/charming class). Don't assume implications to suit your purpose.

If I'm implying anything, it's that his argument about Minstrel having the most CC of any pet owning/charming class was a weak argument.