Message for the developers/admins

Started 9 Feb 2020
by Castra
in Suggestions
Let me get something straight here. Phoenix, as far as I was concerned, was technically a "classic" daoc server, and though there were some post-classic elements I could overlook when the server first opened, things have now become so post-classic that I actually realised the other day that it's literally one expansion from being fundamentally the same as live.

First of all, put old frontiers back on. That's one of the cornerstones of a classic daoc server. New frontiers is not only awful in design but it's far too large for the servers dwindling population. The design of NF is very unoriginal and doesn't inspire very fun solo, stealth or group play. Each realm is literally the same layout except rotated vertically or horizontally, which is boring to say the least. Having to get boats everywhere is damn annoying as well, especially when the buff pots are only 10 minute duration. It tales almost 10 minutes to get anywhere in NF, only to usually die to some RR10 sneak on a bridge; yes, a bridges which literally connect everything together. Also, the keeps are far too large to be taken efficiently by population of this server. I noticed most keeps are taken when there is little or no resistence from the opposing realm. In OF you could take a keep even with strong resistance. NF does NOT stop zerging; if anything it's made it worse.

Secondly, fix that damn minstrel charm. Minstrels are already incredibly strong as it is without having purple/red con pets. Yellow pets are acceptable and should be the limit of their charm ability. It's become a "Carry Hard: With a Vengeance" class for bad, lazy players. Fix it or it's going to drive people away from the server.

This brings me to my third point: FIX THE GOD DAMN DAMAGE TABLES!!!!! This has been a problem since the server first opened. I'm sick of my hero hitting like a hybrid tank. His weaponskill is barely 1300 with capped STR, LW skill and a Galla weapon ... this is a joke. A heroes weapon sklill should be at the very least 1600 unbuffed, and upwards of 1900/2000 with buffs. Pure tanks are therefore pretty useless. They're technically slam and block bots (which i'll come to in my fourth point) and can't seem to dish out damage for the life of them. This is why, on hib, there is a Champion epidemic happening, because people are thinking: well if I hit as hard as a Hero, I might as well have debuffs too!

My fourth point! Fix the realm abilities. Giving every class almost the same realm abilities is boring and tedious. Slam, stun, roots, snares etc are all pretty damn useless because everyone has Determination 9 now. That pretty much nullifies the unique abilities of any given class to perform solo or in groups. I can honestly say, I don't care so much about this point, but it would be nice to have classic RAs on a classic server.

And finally, as I originally mentioned, make buff pots 20 minutes instead of 10. It's increadibly annoying and inefficient having to rebuff everytime you run from A to B.

I hope you heed my advice, because I'm pretty sure that's what most people came to Phoenix to experience.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:52 PM by shintacki
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
First of all, put old frontiers back on.

How many times do they have to say that going back to OF is actually impossible before people stop suggesting it?
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:06 PM by Freedomcall
There is a perfect server for you.
It is called Uthgard.
Have a good one there.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:31 PM by Castra
shintacki wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:52 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
First of all, put old frontiers back on.

How many times do they have to say that going back to OF is actually impossible before people stop suggesting it?

Is that what they told you? xDD

Also, I don't want to hear smart arsed, Brexit'esk replies like "Go and play on Uthgard", or some other stupid crap.

STOP with the excuses and fix the damn server.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 4:04 PM by joshisanonymous
Freedomcall wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:06 PM
There is a perfect server for you.
It is called Uthgard.
Have a good one there.

That was my thought, as well.

I like OF, but it's definitely worse for soloing. I'm also not seeing how keeps are untakeable here when defended. I generally enjoy the keep fights, there seem to be very often defenders, and the ultimate winner has been pretty unpredictable in my experience.

For the OP, a tip: you basically never have a reason to take a boat if you're solo. There are porters in the solo zones (Moy, Telle, and Folley in Emain, Odin's, and Hadrian's) that will take you to whichever zone you want. Grabbing a hastener in Emain/Odin's/Hadrian's also gives you speed for long enough to easily run across EV to another realm. Finally, if you're interested in solo fights, use the dock hasteners to go from Cruachan/Uppland/Savage up the river to the center docks then up the river to Emain/Odin's/Hadrian's; these are all useful areas to find fights with people who are trying to use boats depending on the keep situation.

Hope to see your Hero out there.

PS. We're definitely not one patch away from live. That's just silly. I can hardly tell what the hell is happening on live when I watch videos. It's an entirely different game now.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:57 PM by Enyore
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
First of all,

Secondly,

This brings me to my third point:

My fourth point!

And finally,


Awww....

No, yes, no, no

And finally - dont be so f'ing lazy the damn pots stack up to 20 minutes already.

Maaaan that was a lot of shit without saying anything, you must be a politician by trade.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 6:05 PM by Castra
Enyore wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:57 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
First of all,

Secondly,

This brings me to my third point:

My fourth point!

And finally,


Awww....

No, yes, no, no

And finally - dont be so f'ing lazy the damn pots stack up to 20 minutes already.

Maaaan that was a lot of shit without saying anything, you must be a politician by trade.

More like you're just too stupid to understand it.

Less butthurt posts and more action please.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 6:15 PM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 6:05 PM
Enyore wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 5:57 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
First of all,

Secondly,

This brings me to my third point:

My fourth point!

And finally,


Awww....

No, yes, no, no

And finally - dont be so f'ing lazy the damn pots stack up to 20 minutes already.

Maaaan that was a lot of shit without saying anything, you must be a politician by trade.

More like you're just too stupid to understand it.

Less butthurt posts and more action please.

less butthurt posts coming from the one who litterally made a 4 point post about how butthurt he is whille being misinformed lol.
yes, they told us they cant bring back OF and if you were around for the timing of this incident you might understand how it coincided w/ a patch from live that actually update of models for some reason lol.
also, lol at this guy for thinking det matters when it comes to melee snares and slams. and he plays a hero?
Sun 9 Feb 2020 6:58 PM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 6:15 PM
ess butthurt posts coming from the one who litterally made a 4 point post about how butthurt he is whille being misinformed lol.
yes, they told us they cant bring back OF and if you were around for the timing of this incident you might understand how it coincided w/ a patch from live that actually update of models for some reason lol.
also, lol at this guy for thinking det matters when it comes to melee snares and slams. and he plays a hero?

You're literally making excuses to side track from the reality of the situation. It's called denial, which coincides with butthurt behaviour more than stating truths which I did.

The reality is some of you made the naive mistake of voting in New Frontiers, and now you're putting up your defenses with these cheap and trivial character assassination posts to hide your foolishness. Just fess up: YOU MADE A MISTAKE! New Frontiers along with Trials of Atlantis were the two key moments that essentially killed DAoC. I know this because I played from open beta all the way up to the implementation of NF, and I watched the game die.

What exactly have I been misinformed about? The fact that the devs are telling you a patch can't be reversed? Nothing is irreversable. The devs just don't want to go through all the effort to do it again. New frontiers is not better than old frontiers for many reasons, but from what I've heard, the key reason is to prevent zerging. This obviously didn't solve that problem. In fact, it seems to have made it worse. New frontiers is definitely not better for solo play by a long shot either, because there aren't specific areas where players tend to frequent; the landscape and design of NF is incredibly mundane and the scale is ridiculous for such a population. The keeps are too big, the boat system is annoying and tedious, and bridges connecting everything together just act as a deathtrap for stealth groups.

Many people came to this server to experience something close to classic without the slow regen and xp rates of Uthgard, but the server is no longer classic. Like I said, if you add ToA it's fundamentally like playing live. And if you ask around, many people aren't happy about new frontiers. Those who voted for NF seem to me a bit like the whole "woke" culture: a minority who bitched and whined until they got what they wanted. Well, good work, you fucked the server up.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:15 PM by Riac
i personally like nf as a solo stealther, i dont see the problem w/ nf. if i had the choice to put of back in, id still vote against it. everyone has their opinion i guess.

the part i find to be the most hilarious is the fact you thought det had anything to do w/ slam and melee snares. i do also enjoy you mixing in your politics w/ your game complaints lol.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:31 PM by Enyore
You sit here and claim speaking truth, yet you do not have your facts in order.

OF was complete and utter shit after EA removed the textures from the launcher which would then make it very complicated for the team here to reverse.

I can see from what you write that you didnt play Phoenix when that happened, it was shit with LOS bugs everywhere, not only at chrim though that was the worst place for it.

And what you wrote about the hero is simply just wrong.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:34 PM by Quik
Why are people feeding the troll?
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:37 PM by Riac
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
Why are people feeding the troll?

i dont think hes a troll, i think he actually believes what he is saying. hes just ignorant.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:52 PM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:15 PM
i personally like nf as a solo stealther, i dont see the problem w/ nf. if i had the choice to put of back in, id still vote against it. everyone has their opinion i guess.

the part i find to be the most hilarious is the fact you thought det had anything to do w/ slam and melee snares. i do also enjoy you mixing in your politics w/ your game complaints lol.

Did I? Or did you assume that because I said snare and roots? You do know there are castable snares and roots, right?

And you call me ignorant. Amusing.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:54 PM by Quik
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:37 PM
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
Why are people feeding the troll?

i dont think hes a troll, i think he actually believes what he is saying. hes just ignorant.

I agree completely, but every time anyone argues it doesn't matter if it is valid or not it just gives him a reason to come back with arguments that only make sense to him...wait...is it Teiloh in disguise?
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:59 PM by Castra
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:54 PM
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:37 PM
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 7:34 PM
Why are people feeding the troll?

i dont think hes a troll, i think he actually believes what he is saying. hes just ignorant.

I agree completely, but every time anyone argues it doesn't matter if it is valid or not it just gives him a reason to come back with arguments that only make sense to him...wait...is it Teiloh in disguise?

It makes sense because of logic and historical accuracies, not a subjective opinion like you're proposing. Also, branding someone a troll is the most pathetic attempt for someone in denial to shut down an argument. Bring forth valid reasons why NF is more superior and necessary than OF and you'll have earned some respect.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 8:14 PM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
especially when the buff pots are only 10 minute duration. It tales almost 10 minutes to get anywhere in NF,

My fourth point! Fix the realm abilities. Giving every class almost the same realm abilities is boring and tedious. Slam, stun, roots, snares etc are all pretty damn useless because everyone has Determination 9 now. That pretty much nullifies the unique abilities of any given class to perform solo or in groups. I can honestly say, I don't care so much about this point, but it would be nice to have classic RAs on a classic server.

And finally, as I originally mentioned, make buff pots 20 minutes instead of 10. It's increadibly annoying and inefficient having to rebuff everytime you run from A to B.

if youll notice the bold underlined and italicized portions, you clearly reference slam and snares as being among the things being effected by det 9, while castable ones are melee is not. considering youre speaking from a war pov, im assuming you just dont know what you are talking about. this assumption is then reinforced by your ref of buff pots only being 10 mins, they last for 20 mins. you can use them twice.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 8:49 PM by Uthred
Reading the forum would probably answer most of your points:

1: Old Frontier
Uthred wrote:
Thu 14 Nov 2019 11:20 PM
... In case you dont remember the voting anymore, the results can be found here --> https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9827

Anyways, we answered multiple times that we will not switch back to OF. ...
Why? Technical reasons and the result of the voting.
-----------------------------------
2: Minstrel charm
Uthred wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 10:07 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/posting.php?mode=quote&f=10&p=95418
-----------------------------------
3: Hero Damage
If you think the damage isnt correct, dont bring up any numbers but bring up some facts. And no, irony on: saying things like "back in the days i was onehitting casters" isnt a fact. irony off.(I know that you didnt say so, was just an example to make clear what im talking about). Prove us wrong with facts, tests and so on. But just saying it is wrong without any proof doesnt make it right.
-----------------------------------
4: Realm Abilities
Slam & (melee) Snare arent influenced by Det. Thats why and in general I dont get why it nullifies any abilities. On a personal note: I dont like the snare-game either, but that seems to be the meta in DAoC nowadays. Actually it is like this since many years.
-----------------------------------
4.5: Buff Pots
They can be used twice so you can have buffs up for 20mins in a row. Same for endo/power-pots.
-----------------------------------
5: Classic Server Phoenix?!
We always said since day 1 of the alpha, that we would start with 1.65 as a basic and from thereon would make custom adjustments. Thats why we called Phoenix aprogressive server. A perfect example for this are the RAs. We started with old RAs but that was causing a lot of balancing-problems too ( talking about GP, SOS, BOF, PR, Ichor). Not to mention the long reuse timers on the active RAs. So we decided to switch to new ras during Beta and made since then some adjustments and unique customizations to balance these. We are aware of the fact that it is very hard to balance realm abilities, especialy as DAoC doesnt have any mirror classes like WoW for example but we think that the balance is mostly in a good status.

irony on: Yes, I know. They are still very unbalanced and DEVs play either Hib/Mid/Alb because always the other realms is OP but not mine.irony off.
You wouldnt believe how many times i get seriously asked if it is true that DEVs really play Hib/Mid/Alb because class or ability XYZ is so damn OP. Im not saying that there arent any very strong classes or abilities. But the team is always trying to see the big picture and we never do any changes because of personal reasons but what we think the best for the server would be.

So, what do I want to say with this wall of text? Feedback was and is always welcome on Phoenix, but some things wont be changed (like switching back to OF & new vs old RAs). If anything is wrong or bugged, we need facts to look into things.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM by Castra
Uthred wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 8:49 PM
Reading the forum would probably answer most of your points:

1: Old Frontier
Uthred wrote:
Thu 14 Nov 2019 11:20 PM
... In case you dont remember the voting anymore, the results can be found here --> https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9827

Anyways, we answered multiple times that we will not switch back to OF. ...
Why? Technical reasons and the result of the voting.
-----------------------------------
2: Minstrel charm
Uthred wrote:
Thu 6 Feb 2020 10:07 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 3 Feb 2020 6:49 AM
The cc removal on the pet when charm breaks is not a custom feature, just like a released pet having some aggro (about 1 taunt worth of aggro) on the minstrel and therefore allowing it to break cc on the minstrel is also not a custom feature.

If we decide to do any changes on the minstrel pet mechanic the goal would be to remove to need for macros aka barrier of entry while slightly lowering the ceiling.

An example of what that could look like would be to allow charm to run concurrently with any other pulse and to make the cc removal / immunity have some cost, examples for this cost would be a cd on charm and/or increased resist rate while in combat (in combat only to not make it a hassle to travel with a pet, nobody likes the minstrel getting hit and having speed loss while roaming) making it a lot more dangerous to take a higher pet and also at least having a chance to see the pet going against the minstrel which currently can be entirely avoided by spamming charm on the pet.

https://forum.playphoenix.online/posting.php?mode=quote&f=10&p=95418
-----------------------------------
3: Hero Damage
If you think the damage isnt correct, dont bring up any numbers but bring up some facts. And no, irony on: saying things like "back in the days i was onehitting casters" isnt a fact. irony off.(I know that you didnt say so, was just an example to make clear what im talking about). Prove us wrong with facts, tests and so on. But just saying it is wrong without any proof doesnt make it right.
-----------------------------------
4: Realm Abilities
Slam & (melee) Snare arent influenced by Det. Thats why and in general I dont get why it nullifies any abilities. On a personal note: I dont like the snare-game either, but that seems to be the meta in DAoC nowadays. Actually it is like this since many years.
-----------------------------------
4.5: Buff Pots
They can be used twice so you can have buffs up for 20mins in a row. Same for endo/power-pots.
-----------------------------------
5: Classic Server Phoenix?!
We always said since day 1 of the alpha, that we would start with 1.65 as a basic and from thereon would make custom adjustments. Thats why we called Phoenix aprogressive server. A perfect example for this are the RAs. We started with old RAs but that was causing a lot of balancing-problems too ( talking about GP, SOS, BOF, PR, Ichor). Not to mention the long reuse timers on the active RAs. So we decided to switch to new ras during Beta and made since then some adjustments and unique customizations to balance these. We are aware of the fact that it is very hard to balance realm abilities, especialy as DAoC doesnt have any mirror classes like WoW for example but we think that the balance is mostly in a good status.

irony on: Yes, I know. They are still very unbalanced and DEVs play either Hib/Mid/Alb because always the other realms is OP but not mine.irony off.
You wouldnt believe how many times i get seriously asked if it is true that DEVs really play Hib/Mid/Alb because class or ability XYZ is so damn OP. Im not saying that there arent any very strong classes or abilities. But the team is always trying to see the big picture and we never do any changes because of personal reasons but what we think the best for the server would be.

So, what do I want to say with this wall of text? Feedback was and is always welcome on Phoenix, but some things wont be changed (like switching back to OF & new vs old RAs). If anything is wrong or bugged, we need facts to look into things.

1. So basically it is laziness and an instance of poor democratic practice which rivals that of the Brexit referendum.

2. You're making the Minstrel balance problem out to be far more complicated than it actually is. The reality is minstrels can kite while a mob that barely misses and hits like a REAL classic tank beats you to death and there is nothing you can do about it. Make the limit of the pets either yellow maximum or remove the ability of minstrels to charm and twist speed simultaneously.

3. Unfortunately I don't have any screenshots of any of my old toons from classics but maybe someone from Uthgard can oblige with a screenshot of their hero/warrior/armsmans weapon skill and damage output? Your damage tables aren't good. Period.

4. Slam and melee snares are almost useless as well with modern RAs purge. You do realise that modern RAs essentially makes every class more hybrid blurring the distinction between class roles. I could understand if you implement determination on Champions, Thanes and Paladins to make them more viable in a classic environment, but the current system is plain bad. Also, those in denial who jumped on the fact that I included slam in that list because I was clearly thinking about putting a point across rather than specifics are pretty pathetic. I know slam isn't affected by determination, but as I already said: between determination and purge, crowd control in general is all very undermined.

4.5 So basically it's completely inefficient for pot users. You burn almost a minute just casting individual pots twice. Not good enough.

5. That's not a very good justification. The idea of the server was classic, the progressive aspect was almost certaintly to iron out any inconveniences in classic, not turn the server into live 2.0; but of course you'll use the "we never said" line to cover your arses, which is understandable I suppose. I'd probably do the same. However, I can see right through that charade.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:33 PM by Riac
1.) i like the fact that youre calling them lazy, yet they put this whole thing together for free. id like to take a tour of your private daoc server when you get a chance. o you dont have one? you must be a lazy piece of shit.

2.) i agree, fuck minis and fuck archers too.

3.) heros have some pretty spicy hits, so not sure what you are talking about. however, you're also not a bm.

4.) slam and m.snares are useless? are you a crazy person?? (well, nvm lol). pls god post of a video of someone purging a snare so we can all laugh. thanes, pallys, and champs do have det here and im pretty sure making them more viable was the main reason to give it to them; however, speccing det9 w/ no stoic seems a bit wastefull. seems like youd be better off just going high purge, but i dont 8 man and not up on the meta. also, youre going to make a critique of something you should be clear and concise to prevent ppl from jumping on you and making you look silly. we arent mind readers, its hard to tell when ppl are shifting from specific points to generalizations.

4.5) its actually not inconvenient at all, its implemented quite nice but i wouldnt expect you to know how the feature works, considering you were totally unaware of its existence until 10 mins ago (hasnt even tried it and already complaining lol). my only complaint is the 2 min cds between my abs and my legion heal.

5.) the charades up, pack it up boys!
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:52 PM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:33 PM
4.) slam and m.snares are useless? are you a crazy person?? (well, nvm lol). pls god post of a video of someone purging a snare so we can all laugh. thanes, pallys, and champs do have det here and im pretty sure making them more viable was the main reason to give it to them; however, speccing det9 w/ no stoic seems a bit wastefull. seems like youd be better off just going high purge, but i dont 8 man and not up on the meta. also, youre going to make a critique of something you should be clear and concise to prevent ppl from jumping on you and making you look silly. we arent mind readers, its hard to tell when ppl are shifting from specific points to generalizations.

Yes, slams are snares are actually quite useless. You slam, they purge, you fight and because your classes damage output has been nerfed to high heaven you lose to classes you should crush in classic. What's your point? Also, what meta????? That's laughable. The concept of a meta faded with modern RAs and damage tables. THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT!!! The distinction of classes within a group have been blurred to the point where it's basically a free-for-all with highly randomised variables dictating the outcome. How's that for clear and concise, Captain General Knowledge. Why don't you tell everyone more basic knowledge like Determination doesn't affect Slam? Did you feel a little ego boost when you pointed that out while completely sidestepping the entire point of the discussion? It's not "hard to tell", you're just not very bright. Usually the sanctimonious people who spout off general knowledge are the ones who lack in the more arcane and important skill sets, like experience and psychological based intuition and mechanical skill, or those who are incapable of piecing together the bigger picture, which, judging from your previous posts, you're incapable of doing.

So maybe you should recalibrate your attitude relative to your level of understanding, Sunshine.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:01 PM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:52 PM
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:33 PM
4.) slam and m.snares are useless? are you a crazy person?? (well, nvm lol). pls god post of a video of someone purging a snare so we can all laugh. thanes, pallys, and champs do have det here and im pretty sure making them more viable was the main reason to give it to them; however, speccing det9 w/ no stoic seems a bit wastefull. seems like youd be better off just going high purge, but i dont 8 man and not up on the meta. also, youre going to make a critique of something you should be clear and concise to prevent ppl from jumping on you and making you look silly. we arent mind readers, its hard to tell when ppl are shifting from specific points to generalizations.

Yes, slams are snares are actually quite useless. You slam, they purge, you fight and because your classes damage output has been nerfed to high heaven you lose to classes you should crush in classic. What's your point? Also, what meta????? That's laughable. The concept of a meta faded with modern RAs and damage tables. THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT!!! The distinction of classes within a group have been blurred to the point where it's basically a free-for-all with highly randomised variables dictating the outcome. How's that for clear and concise, Captain General Knowledge. Why don't you tell everyone more basic knowledge like Determination doesn't affect Slam? Did you feel a little ego boost when you pointed that out while completely sidestepping the entire point of the discussion? It's not "hard to tell", you're just not very bright. Usually the sanctimonious people who spout off general knowledge are the ones who lack in the more arcane and important skill sets, like experience and psychological based intuition and mechanical skill, or whose who are incapable of piecing together the bigger picture, which, judging from your previous posts, you're incapable of doing.

So maybe you should recalibrate your attitude relative to your level of understanding, Sunshine.

are you talking about from a group pov? if you slam them and they purge, put that snare on them and go peel some more shit.... are you talking about a 1v1 sort of scenario, because thats pretty simplistic and not at all how it normally happens. (you can bait out purge w/ numb or after block attacks)

considering i had to point out to you that det doesnt work on slam, i think its a good thing we covered that and didnt let the ppl who maybe didnt know it continue to believe your misinformation.

i like how im being the one criticized for spouting off general knowledge when most of his complaint are based on generalizations that totally ignores the nuance of a lot of these situations. like the shield slam purge scenario mentioned above.

till next dumbass post,
-Sunshine
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:12 PM by Pao
OP is a retard.

Only point is that mincer with AHK is too easy to play that it's justified having a purp pet.

Nf keeps are so much better and solo action too. For me it was difficult to start nf after a break I first gave up because I had no understanding of the action. Nf live time I was sticked to my lead Pac healer had not to navigate anything.
After a while you understand where is the action and how to avoid camped areas.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:19 PM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:01 PM
are you talking about from a group pov? if you slam them and they purge, put that snare on them and go peel some more shit.... are you talking about a 1v1 sort of scenario, because thats pretty simplistic and not at all how it normally happens. (you can bait out purge w/ numb or after block attacks)

considering i had to point out to you that det doesnt work on slam, i think its a good thing we covered that and didnt let the ppl who maybe didnt know it continue to believe your misinformation.

i like how im being the one criticized for spouting off general knowledge when most of his complaint are based on generalizations that totally ignores the nuance of a lot of these situations. like the shield slam purge scenario mentioned above.

till next dumbass post,
-Sunshine

It doesn't matter from what perspective it is, because you're referring to intricate situations in perfect scenarios. That's not how things play out, nor is it particularly important to the whole point I'm making. Who cares if a tank can snare a target? You think that automatically justifies nerfing many other classes from being able to utilize and rely on the fundamental abilities which make them unique? I'm talking about the state of balance, not what a player can do in one of many possible situations.

Also, yes, pointing out that slam isn't affected by determination really made a world of difference to my points. That's sarcasm by the way. It absolutely made no difference what so ever. It was completely irrelevant; however, it did point out your insecurities.

The fundamental problem is comprehensive, not nuance. This is clearly seen with the admins approach to the Minstrel's balance issues. You need to fix fundamentals, not intricacies.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:30 PM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
3. Unfortunately I don't have any screenshots of any of my old toons from classics but maybe someone from Uthgard can oblige with a screenshot of their hero/warrior/armsmans weapon skill and damage output? Your damage tables aren't good. Period.

Weapon skill is just a number and by itself not really meaningful, the only relation it has to damage is that it is increased by the same things that also increase the damage but the absolute number is pretty much meaningless. Feel free to test damage on Uthgard, from our limited tests on there it looks like their damage is pretty much exactly the same as if we use our formula with inherent AF set to 40 while ours is at 45 and live is at 50, that's pretty much the only difference I found. However, keep in mind you will pretty much always hit against spec af buffed targets here. Also please don't use pve tests but find some player.

Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
5. That's not a very good justification. The idea of the server was classic, the progressive aspect was almost certaintly to iron out any inconveniences in classic, not turn the server into live 2.0; but of course you'll use the "we never said" line to cover your arses, which is understandable I suppose. I'd probably do the same. However, I can see right through that charade.

The official line is and has always been 1.65 as baseline and changes from there. The reason it might appear to get closer and closer to live is pretty simple, there are obvious glaring issues with 1.65 and many of those have a pretty logical fix and live did many of those but also loads of entirely new / other things.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:45 PM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:30 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
3. Unfortunately I don't have any screenshots of any of my old toons from classics but maybe someone from Uthgard can oblige with a screenshot of their hero/warrior/armsmans weapon skill and damage output? Your damage tables aren't good. Period.

Weapon skill is just a number and by itself not really meaningful, the only relation it has to damage is that it is increased by the same things that also increase the damage but the absolute number is pretty much meaningless. Feel free to test damage on Uthgard, from our limited tests on there it looks like their damage is pretty much exactly the same as if we use our formula with inherent AF set to 40 while ours is at 45 and live is at 50, that's pretty much the only difference I found. However, keep in mind you will pretty much always hit against spec af buffed targets here. Also please don't use pve tests but find some player.

Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
5. That's not a very good justification. The idea of the server was classic, the progressive aspect was almost certaintly to iron out any inconveniences in classic, not turn the server into live 2.0; but of course you'll use the "we never said" line to cover your arses, which is understandable I suppose. I'd probably do the same. However, I can see right through that charade.

The official line is and has always been 1.65 as baseline and changes from there. The reason it might appear to get closer and closer to live is pretty simple, there are obvious glaring issues with 1.65 and many of those have a pretty logical fix and live did many of those but also loads of entirely new / other things.

Weapon skill being just a number isn't the point, and it isn't just a number, it's a indicator derived from a number of factors of how hard a melee class will hit. The point however is that pure tanks weapon skill is far too low because the damage tables have been equalized. It's not that Champions hit like Heroes, it's that Heroes hit like Champions and other hybrid tanks, and they shouldn't. Not unless you want to make the class a gimmick.

I've been around classic games long enough to know that when people say that an older version, which many deemed a golden age, had "issues" it's usually more like an excuse of players who are incapable of competing in a more raw and unforgiving environment. Phoenix was a good server and I had a lot of fun on it, but the only issues I originally saw were bad damage tables, new RAs and incredibly overpowered infiltrators and shadowblades from what I remember of early last year. Essentially you've done what inevitably happens to every game: it has been dumb down to cater to the masses.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:58 PM by Riac
a hero talking about the overpowered infs and sbs? lol
whats your RR on this server so far?
what sort of hero are you playing and what RAs are you using for him?
lots of tanks have made a ton or rps farming stealthers. especially if youre a lw hero, you will always get positive dmg.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:20 PM by Quik
People do realize that if you just stopped feeding the troll he would go away...

No matter what arguments you bring he will bring his own he read somewhere or was told by someone so they must be more accurate...

It's pretty obvious he is just antagonizing people just to get a rise.

If you are all having fun well enjoy, otherwise you do realize you're just arguing against a 3 year old who doesn't care about logic or facts...
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:21 PM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:45 PM
Weapon skill being just a number isn't the point, and it isn't just a number, it's a indicator derived from a number of factors of how hard a melee class will hit. The point however is that pure tanks weapon skill is far too low because the damage tables have been equalized. It's not that Champions hit like Heroes, it's that Heroes hit like Champions and other hybrid tanks, and they shouldn't. Not unless you want to make the class a gimmick.

Yes feelings about the damage is much more accurate than actual tests.

The difference between a hero, damage table 22, and a hybrid like the champion, damage table 19, is for one the melee damage formula starts with 50 * 2.2 and for the other with a 50 * 1.9, that's it.
Damage stats, like str, are a multiplier on it, it's the same for both, for 350 str and some str based weapon that would be a 2.75x multiplier.
On top of that comes the weapon line + variance, at 52+ comp spec that would be a 1.25x multipler + .25 here (.01 - .5 on live) = a 1.5x multiplier.
Then the result so far is divided by the effective AF, let's take a cleric as an example with 50 spec af, that would mean divide what we have so far by 215.068.
The result is then multiplied by potential absorb buffs like cast self absorb or buffed by necro, bd or animist, let's say that's not the case here for our cleric.
Then it's multiplied by the resists, for 26 it would be a .74 multiplier.

This result now is your damage modifier which caps at 3 and is multiplied with the weapon dps and speed to get your base / unstyled damage but the weapon damage is exactly the same for all classes, regardless of spec or not a 2.0 16.5 dps one handed weapon always means multiply the damage modifier with 16.5 and then by 2.

Now let's do an example for the damage modifier for our 350 str hero:

50 * 2.2 = 110
110 * (1 + 0.01 * (350 / 2)) = 302.5
302.5 * 1.5 = 453.75
453.75 / 215.068 = 2.11
2.11 * 0.74 = 1.561
Our hero has a 1.561 damage modifier (ingame displayed as 1561), that means he will hit for about half his cap against our example cleric (1500 would be exactly half his cap).

Now let's do it for a 350 str champion:
50 * 1.9 = 95
95 * (1 + 0.01 * (350 / 2)) = 261.25
261.25 * 1.5 = 391.875
391.875 / 215.068 = 1.822
1.822 * 0.74 = 1.348
Our champion has a 1.348 damage modifier (ingame displayed as 1348), that means he will hit for slightly less than half the cap.

Now let's say we have a 16.5 5.5 twohanded weapon, and lets further say both the hero and champion have 65 composite LW, that means the effective damage of this weapon would be:
16.5 * 5.5 * 10 = 907.5
907.5 * (0.94 + 5.5 * 0.03) = 1002.7875
1002.7875 * (1.1 + 65 * 0.005) = 1428.97
1428.97 / 10 = 142.897

That means the base damage of a 16.5 5.5 2h would be 142.897 for those with 65 weapon spec (relevant because 2h receive a spec bonus, see the line with 65 * 0.005), that means these people have an unstyled hit cap of 142.897 * 3 = 428.691.

With such a weapon
our Hero would hit the cleric for 142.897 * 1.561 = 223 damage unstyled
our Champ would hit the cleric for 142.897 * 1.348 = 192 damage unstyled

Or: the hero does 223 / 192 = 1.16 = 116% of the champion.
Or: the champion does 192 / 223 = 0.86 = 86% of the hero damage.

Hm, those 223 and 192 look pretty familiar, I wonder if the weapon speed was chosen to highlight this, 22 / 19 = 1.15 = 115%, 19 / 22 = 0.86 = 86%. So no, there is nothing wrong here with the relative damage between hybrids and full tanks.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:34 PM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:21 PM
Hm, those 223 and 192 look pretty familiar, I wonder if the weapon speed was chosen to highlight this, 22 / 19 = 1.15 = 115%, 19 / 22 = 0.86 = 86%. So no, there is nothing wrong here with the relative damage between hybrids and full tanks.

Except the fact that a Hero should be hitting far harder than 223 with a slow Large Weapon.

All you've done here is say, "look, our damage tables are correct, and Heroes do hit slightly harder on our server, because of the natural increase in certain factors over hybrids, which you'd get anywhere regardless".
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:42 PM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:34 PM
Except the fact that a Hero should be hitting far harder than 223 with a slow Large Weapon.

All you've done here is say, "look, our damage tables are correct, and Heroes do hit slightly harder, because of the natural increase in certain factors over hybrids, which you'd get anywhere regardless".

If you go to pendragon right now and have a champ / hero with 350 str and 0 toa damage etc. and a cleric with 50 spec af you will have exactly the same results except the damage will be on average slightly lower as the 215.068 divisor is on live slightly higher due to the inherent af being 50 whereas it's 45 here.
However, on live you have variance meaning the 1.5 multiplier would be equally distributed between 1.25 and 1.75 which is why loads of hits are required on live to test something relating to melee stuff conclusively.

I would also be quite surprised if the result on uthgard looked any different although here the reverse applies and you have a very slightly higher damage due to the inherent af being 40 there. Actually, if you get a 75 spec af charge on uthgard it would be exactly the same as it is with 50 spec af here as af buffs are divided by 5 and therefore 45 inherent af and 50 spec af is exactly the same as 40 inherent af and 75 spec af.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:46 PM by Riac
tbh, im with this castra. i think we should begin operating off of opinions and how i think things should be.
and if you dont agree with me it's because you are lazy or dont understand arcane idea or w/e the fuck he said earlier lol.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:50 PM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:42 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:34 PM
Except the fact that a Hero should be hitting far harder than 223 with a slow Large Weapon.

All you've done here is say, "look, our damage tables are correct, and Heroes do hit slightly harder, because of the natural increase in certain factors over hybrids, which you'd get anywhere regardless".

If you go to pendragon right now and have a champ / hero with 350 str and 0 toa damage etc. and a cleric with 50 spec af you will have exactly the same results except the damage will be on average slightly lower as the 215.068 divisor is on live slightly higher due to the inherent af being 50 whereas it's 45 here.
However, on live you have variance meaning the 1.5 multiplier would be equally distributed between 1.25 and 1.75 which is why loads of hits are required on live to test something relating to melee stuff conclusively.

I would also be quite surprised if the result on uthgard looked any different although here the reverse applies and you have a very slightly higher damage due to the inherent af being 40 there.

First of all, that's not classic damage tables. In classic if you lamp someone with a 2handed weapon you'd do easily 300+ damage. Even players buffed to the teeth could get hit by high RR players for over 500 dmg. Secondly, why is the wep skill so low? The weapon skill on my Champion on Excalibur server is very similar to my Heroes on Pheonix, and pure tanks I've made on Excalibur, Uthard and Genesis all had Wep Skills upwards of 1800+ and all hit appropriately. Not to mention that my Hero damage is very similar to my Excalibur Champion.

This is too much of a coincidence. Either your damage tables are modern and equalized or you're missing something.
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:54 PM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:50 PM
First of all, that's not classic damage tables. In classic if you lamp someone with a 2handed weapon you'd do easily 300+ damage. Even players buffed to the teeth could get hit by high RR players for over 500 dmg. Secondly, why is the wep skill so low? The weapon skill on my Champion on Excalibur server is very similar to my Heroes on Pheonix, and pure tanks I've made on Excalibur, Uthard and Genesis all had Wep Skills upwards of 1800+ and all hit appropriately. Not to mention that my Hero damage is very similar to my Excalibur Champion.

This is too much of a coincidence. Either your damage tables are modern and equalized or you're missing something.

Thanks for conflating unstyled and styled damage, you will hit for 300+ here as well if you manage to press a style in time. And against freshly rezzed casters you will hit for 500+ as well. And yes, due to the variance on live / whatever you were able to have higher lucky hits (but also lower unlucky hits) and since one likes to remember higher numbers those high variance rolls are what sticks.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:05 AM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:54 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:50 PM
First of all, that's not classic damage tables. In classic if you lamp someone with a 2handed weapon you'd do easily 300+ damage. Even players buffed to the teeth could get hit by high RR players for over 500 dmg. Secondly, why is the wep skill so low? The weapon skill on my Champion on Excalibur server is very similar to my Heroes on Pheonix, and pure tanks I've made on Excalibur, Uthard and Genesis all had Wep Skills upwards of 1800+ and all hit appropriately. Not to mention that my Hero damage is very similar to my Excalibur Champion.

This is too much of a coincidence. Either your damage tables are modern and equalized or you're missing something.

Thanks for conflating unstyled and styled damage, you will hit for 300+ here as well if you manage to press a style in time. And against freshly rezzed casters you will hit for 500+ as well. And yes, due to the variance on live / whatever you were able to have higher lucky hits (but also lower unlucky hits) and since one likes to remember higher numbers those high variance rolls are what sticks.

You think I don't hit hard because I don't use styles? Jesus. You think 300 is a lot? I was hit on Excalibur by a Warrior for 700 a swing and 1100 by an Armsman polearm. That's Classic ...

I know you can't possibly have damage tables quite as crazy as them days, but your tables aren't truly classic. I can't remember exactly when 1.65 came out but I'm guessin around ToA because your damage tables seem post ToA from what I can remember.

It still doesn't explain the weapon skill.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:20 AM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:05 AM
It still doesn't explain the weapon skill.

Again, the shown weapon skill is entirely meaningless, it could show 0 and it wouldn't change a thing other than there being a 0 in your char screen as it's not directly linked to damage / used in the damage formula, it's just supposed to be based on the same values as the damage modifier is.

Could the shown value be bugged? Sure, I don't think anyone really took a look at it as nobody really cared since its only purpose is to be a number in the char screen and it just doesn't matter as long as it at least shows some change when relevant stats / skills change.
1200 is not any more or less meaningful than 1900 in isolation, however, a change from 1200 to 1250 or 1900 to 1950 tells you that whatever you did most likely affects damage in a positive way.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:27 AM by easytoremember
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
People do realize that if you just stopped feeding the troll he would go away...

No matter what arguments you bring he will bring his own
How terrifying
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:28 AM by Riac
easytoremember wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:27 AM
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
People do realize that if you just stopped feeding the troll he would go away...

No matter what arguments you bring he will bring his own
How terrifying

im quite entertained watching him grasp at straws. footballs over so gotta find something new to do on a sunday, watching an idiot ramble is pretty good for now.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:29 AM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:20 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:05 AM
It still doesn't explain the weapon skill.

Again, the shown weapon skill is entirely meaningless, it could show 0 and it wouldn't change a thing other than there being a 0 in your char screen as it's not directly linked to damage / used in the damage formula, it's just supposed to be based on the same values as the damage modifier is.

Could the shown value be bugged? Sure, I don't think anyone really took a look at it as nobody really cared since its only purpose is to be a number in the char screen and it just doesn't matter as long as it at least shows some change when relevant stats / skills change.
1200 is not any more or less meaningful than 1900 in isolation, however, a change from 1200 to 1250 or 1900 to 1950 tells you that whatever you did most likely affects damage in a positive way.

Exactly. It's a reading of your STR (or whatever stat affects wep skill) + Given Weapon skill of choice (like Celtic Spear for example). So it's either not working properly, or something isn't right.

You can't simply say it's unimporant. That's like saying if your hitpoints read 0 it doesn't matter.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:32 AM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:28 AM
im quite entertained watching him grasp at straws. footballs over so gotta find something new to do on a sunday, watching an idiot ramble is pretty good for now.

What straws is it you think i'm grasping here? The fact that the damage tables are still incorrect or that he can't explain the low weapon skill?
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:35 AM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:29 AM
Exactly. It's a reading of your STR (or whatever stat affects wep skill) + Given Weapon skill of choice (like Celtic Spear for example). So it's either not working properly, or something isn't right.

You can't simply say it's unimporant. That's like saying if your hitpoints read 0 it doesn't matter.

Still has nothing to do with damage.

The weapon skill number is to damage as what the fuel gauge in your car is to your fuel tank fill value, the fuel gauge always showing a full tank doesn't mean your car no longer consumes fuel while driving, it just means the fuel gauge is broken. Just like the fuel gauge displayed value doesn't directly affect the actual contents of the fuel tank, the shown weaponskill doesn't directly affect the actual damage you deal.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:38 AM by Riac
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:20 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:05 AM
It still doesn't explain the weapon skill.

Again, the shown weapon skill is entirely meaningless, it could show 0 and it wouldn't change a thing other than there being a 0 in your char screen as it's not directly linked to damage / used in the damage formula, it's just supposed to be based on the same values as the damage modifier is.

Could the shown value be bugged? Sure, I don't think anyone really took a look at it as nobody really cared since its only purpose is to be a number in the char screen and it just doesn't matter as long as it at least shows some change when relevant stats / skills change.
1200 is not any more or less meaningful than 1900 in isolation, however, a change from 1200 to 1250 or 1900 to 1950 tells you that whatever you did most likely affects damage in a positive way.

i feel like that sums it up quite nicely. if youll look in the formula that he gave you youll notice that at no point does it take into account the weapon skill displayed. it is independent of that. from im getting, the displayed number is just a function of those particular stat points and doesnt have much bearing on your actual dmg. its more or less there to be a shorthand indicator of the change in stats was a beneficial one or a negative one or how much better something might be.

theyve literally showed you the formula and the dmg table starting points and youre still insisting that it is broke lol. just out of curiosity, in your other post you said a polearm arms is hitting for 1100 and a war for 700 in w/e classic world you were talking about. why does the arms hit for 400 more? that doesnt seem too fair.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:40 AM by Quik
easytoremember wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:27 AM
Quik wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:20 PM
People do realize that if you just stopped feeding the troll he would go away...

No matter what arguments you bring he will bring his own
How terrifying

If you are going to quote someone how about you quote the ENTIRE thing instead of changing to suit what you want...

"No matter what arguments you bring he will bring his own he read somewhere or was told by someone so they must be more accurate..."

Meaning he hasn't tried anything himself he is just taking stuff he read or heard...now...would you care to try again on quoting me or are you just more interested in being like him and making stuff up?
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:45 AM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

rofl, who is going to brave enough to click that?
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:46 AM by Castra
Riac wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:45 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

rofl, who is going to brave enough to click that?

Those who don't want to get rekt?

Your damage tables aren't wrong, they're just based on a modern version of DAoC which isn't truly classic.

You may also notice I was only 20 seconds into that video, which shows I didn't have to look very long for proof that a Hero should be hitting WAY more than 220 for a styled swing.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:48 AM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:46 AM
Riac wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:45 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

rofl, who is going to brave enough to click that?

Those who don't want to get rekt?

that link looks sketch af. you cant use the snipping tool or something to post the data in a pic or something?
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:05 AM by thirian24
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:46 AM
Riac wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:45 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

rofl, who is going to brave enough to click that?

Those who don't want to get rekt?

Your damage tables aren't wrong, they're just based on a modern version of DAoC which isn't truly classic.

You may also notice I was only 20 seconds into that video, which shows I didn't have to look very long for proof that a Hero should be hitting WAY more than 220 for a styled swing.


Do you read only what you choose to, and ignore the rest? He stated that 220 dmg, were unstyled swings.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:09 AM by gruenesschaf
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

Not really seeing anything that would help your case here?

Just because I'm bored I ran this through our damage formula:
Troll, 15 str at creation + 75 from equip + 155 from buffs = 390 str, let's just take 400 str to make it relateable because 400 str. Weapon is dragonstorm at 5.8 assuming rr5 and 50 + 15 hammer.
Target celt 26 + 2 crush resist, 488 + 107 = 595, 107 here means 18% resist = that's a bm or bard target, anyways, that's due to armor vulnerability 18% resist.

Assuming no spec af, on uthgard that means an unstyled hit between 330 and 455, or with conquer and the haste buffs I'm just assuming a 1.25 style multiplier, that would make the expected hit between 412 and 568.75.
Same settings but here: 298 - 414 unstyled with variance or with conquer 372 - 517 but since we don't have variance the unstyled hit would be 355 and conquer will do 443.

And to show what spec af does, let's add a 50 value one: 279 - 388 with variance unstyled, 332 without making conquer do 348 - 485 on average 415.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:13 AM by easytoremember
Quik wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:40 AM
...now...would you care to try again on quoting me or are you just more interested in being like him and making stuff up?
Quik wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:40 AM
Meaning he hasn't tried anything himself he is just taking stuff he read or heard
hilarious
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:18 AM by Castra
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:09 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

Not really seeing anything that would help your case here?

Just because I'm bored I ran this through our damage formula:
Troll, 15 str at creation + 75 from equip + 155 from buffs = 390 str, let's just take 400 str to make it relateable because 400 str. Weapon is dragonstorm at 5.8 assuming rr5 and 50 + 15 hammer.
Target celt 26 + 2 crush resist, 488 + 107 = 595, 107 here means 18% resist = that's a bm or bard target, anyways, that's due to armor vulnerability 18% resist.

Assuming no spec af, on uthgard that means an unstyled hit between 330 and 455, or with conquer and the haste buffs I'm just assuming a 1.25 style multiplier, that would make the expected hit between 412 and 568.75.
Same settings but here: 298 - 414 unstyled with variance or with conquer 372 - 517 but since we don't have variance the unstyled hit would be 355 and conquer will do 443.

And to show what spec af does, let's add a 50 value one: 279 - 388 with variance unstyled, 332 without making conquer do 348 - 485 on average 415.

So you admit that Pheonix damage tables for pure tanks are lower?

Also, that's a lot of "ifs, buts and maybes".
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:49 AM by Riac
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:18 AM
gruenesschaf wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:09 AM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 12:42 AM
https://ibb.co/1vbfzzx

I rest my case ...

Not really seeing anything that would help your case here?

Just because I'm bored I ran this through our damage formula:
Troll, 15 str at creation + 75 from equip + 155 from buffs = 390 str, let's just take 400 str to make it relateable because 400 str. Weapon is dragonstorm at 5.8 assuming rr5 and 50 + 15 hammer.
Target celt 26 + 2 crush resist, 488 + 107 = 595, 107 here means 18% resist = that's a bm or bard target, anyways, that's due to armor vulnerability 18% resist.

Assuming no spec af, on uthgard that means an unstyled hit between 330 and 455, or with conquer and the haste buffs I'm just assuming a 1.25 style multiplier, that would make the expected hit between 412 and 568.75.
Same settings but here: 298 - 414 unstyled with variance or with conquer 372 - 517 but since we don't have variance the unstyled hit would be 355 and conquer will do 443.

And to show what spec af does, let's add a 50 value one: 279 - 388 with variance unstyled, 332 without making conquer do 348 - 485 on average 415.

So you admit that Pheonix damage tables for pure tanks are lower?

Also, that's a lot of "ifs, buts and maybes".

gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:42 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 11:34 PM
Except the fact that a Hero should be hitting far harder than 223 with a slow Large Weapon.

All you've done here is say, "look, our damage tables are correct, and Heroes do hit slightly harder, because of the natural increase in certain factors over hybrids, which you'd get anywhere regardless".

If you go to pendragon right now and have a champ / hero with 350 str and 0 toa damage etc. and a cleric with 50 spec af you will have exactly the same results except the damage will be on average slightly lower as the 215.068 divisor is on live slightly higher due to the inherent af being 50 whereas it's 45 here.
However, on live you have variance meaning the 1.5 multiplier would be equally distributed between 1.25 and 1.75 which is why loads of hits are required on live to test something relating to melee stuff conclusively.

I would also be quite surprised if the result on uthgard looked any different although here the reverse applies and you have a very slightly higher damage due to the inherent af being 40 there. Actually, if you get a 75 spec af charge on uthgard it would be exactly the same as it is with 50 spec af here as af buffs are divided by 5 and therefore 45 inherent af and 50 spec af is exactly the same as 40 inherent af and 75 spec af.

the difference is in the inherent AFs. he mentioned this earlier and idk if your gold fish brain forgot it, or you never actually understood it because its ARCANE knowledge lol, or youre just arguing in bad faith. either way, the AF is the difference.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 2:48 AM by teiloh
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
Secondly, fix that damn minstrel charm. Minstrels are already incredibly strong as it is without having purple/red con pets. Yellow pets are acceptable and should be the limit of their charm ability. It's become a "Carry Hard: With a Vengeance" class for bad, lazy players. Fix it or it's going to drive people away from the server.


Nope. https://forum.playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=12432

Minstrel is also the hardest class in the game. Handling a red/purple pet is harder than your entire class.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:40 AM by rocketait
So we have 45 base af verse 40 classicaf
and 1.5 instead of 1.25-1.75 damage variance.

So to sum it up for the op yes your flashy 1.75 + 5less af hits will not happen, but on average "everyone" does 5af worth less damage.

Is this a bad thing, maybe, but your remembering you highest hits and not your average damage so it feels noticeably lower not just that 5 af.

Oh and they changed con up a bit so people have 10% ish more hp if I read that correct... So yes enemy bars drop slower. I'm fine with it but to each there own, but it's not that different from classic when you average things out.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 4:45 AM by Cadebrennus
gruenesschaf wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 10:30 PM
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
3. Unfortunately I don't have any screenshots of any of my old toons from classics but maybe someone from Uthgard can oblige with a screenshot of their hero/warrior/armsmans weapon skill and damage output? Your damage tables aren't good. Period.

Weapon skill is just a number and by itself not really meaningful, the only relation it has to damage is that it is increased by the same things that also increase the damage but the absolute number is pretty much meaningless. Feel free to test damage on Uthgard, from our limited tests on there it looks like their damage is pretty much exactly the same as if we use our formula with inherent AF set to 40 while ours is at 45 and live is at 50, that's pretty much the only difference I found. However, keep in mind you will pretty much always hit against spec af buffed targets here. Also please don't use pve tests but find some player.

Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 9:18 PM
5. That's not a very good justification. The idea of the server was classic, the progressive aspect was almost certaintly to iron out any inconveniences in classic, not turn the server into live 2.0; but of course you'll use the "we never said" line to cover your arses, which is understandable I suppose. I'd probably do the same. However, I can see right through that charade.

The official line is and has always been 1.65 as baseline and changes from there. The reason it might appear to get closer and closer to live is pretty simple, there are obvious glaring issues with 1.65 and many of those have a pretty logical fix and live did many of those but also loads of entirely new / other things.

What about putting up some dummies with different armor tiers and spec AF?
Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:07 AM by Riac
they should just make the dummies the same as hitting a fully buffed player (pot buffed or w/e they wanna make the standard). having the dummies represent a lvl 50 mob or w/e they are set to now seems useless af and ppl come on here with the data from the dummies and then jsut get flamed for using dummies. the low lvl dummies seems extra useless, but w/e.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:44 AM by Isavyr
Castra wrote:
Sun 9 Feb 2020 2:40 PM
Let me get something straight here. Phoenix, as far as I was concerned, was technically a "classic" daoc server, and though there were some post-classic elements I could overlook when the server first opened, things have now become so post-classic that I actually realised the other day that it's literally one expansion from being fundamentally the same as live.

First of all, put old frontiers back on. That's one of the cornerstones of a classic daoc server. New frontiers is not only awful in design but it's far too large for the servers dwindling population. The design of NF is very unoriginal and doesn't inspire very fun solo, stealth or group play.

Secondly, fix that damn minstrel charm. Minstrels are already incredibly strong as it is without having purple/red con pets. Yellow pets are acceptable and should be the limit of their charm ability. It's become a "Carry Hard: With a Vengeance" class for bad, lazy players. Fix it or it's going to drive people away from the server.

My fourth point! Fix the realm abilities. Giving every class almost the same realm abilities is boring and tedious. Slam, stun, roots, snares etc are all pretty damn useless because everyone has Determination 9 now.

And finally, as I originally mentioned, make buff pots 20 minutes instead of 10. It's increadibly annoying and inefficient having to rebuff everytime you run from A to B.

You criticize that it's no longer classic, then recommend they change minstrel away from classic even farther. I don't know whether you notice that contradiction. At any rate, I disagree with your general idea, which is that the server has highly problematic balance and isn't successful because it needs to follow advice like your own. I think the server still is fairly successful by the numbers, and is more competitive/better balanced than any other classic server.

That being said, I do agree some minor changes could be put in. I think you are right that NF layout is problematic and we haven't seen any significant changes that address that. I also think the solo buff pots should last longer, given that they are limited in effectiveness and don't threaten actual buffers.

Lastly, while I think the realm abilities could use some change, there's a serious problem when you say that slam/snares doesn't matter because of det9--det9 doesn't affect slam, it only affects magical abilities. I'm going to chalk this up to inexperience on your part, which unfortunately colors the entire post.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 8:37 AM by Cadebrennus
Riac wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:07 AM
they should just make the dummies the same as hitting a fully buffed player (pot buffed or w/e they wanna make the standard). having the dummies represent a lvl 50 mob or w/e they are set to now seems useless af and ppl come on here with the data from the dummies and then jsut get flamed for using dummies. the low lvl dummies seems extra useless, but w/e.

I couldn't agree more
Mon 10 Feb 2020 5:06 PM by Enyore
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:18 AM
So you admit that Pheonix damage tables for pure tanks are lower?

Also, that's a lot of "ifs, buts and maybes".

LOL - Are you completely immune to facts? or are you simply too retarded to understand them?

It's like the DAoC version of an american politician I know.... and in saying so I guess I have now made you a victim of something, so i wish you a good time making a scene about that.

But anyway, here is a piece of fact based on emotion and I remember and feel something, i trust this might help you see things more clear...... back in the classic day I remember that only 30% of the actual players were in templates and capped out. I feel this could be the reason you hit so hard back then on your heavy tank.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 5:36 PM by Ashenspire
Damage tables are where they're supposed to be in regards to what the weaponskill should be.

The ridiculous 2k weaponskill stuff didn't start showing up until after TOA with str cap and everyone having full buff specced buff bots with +buff TOA bonuses.
Mon 10 Feb 2020 9:17 PM by thirian24
Enyore wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 5:06 PM
Castra wrote:
Mon 10 Feb 2020 1:18 AM
So you admit that Pheonix damage tables for pure tanks are lower?

Also, that's a lot of "ifs, buts and maybes".
But anyway, here is a piece of fact based on emotion and I remember and feel something, i trust this might help you see things more clear...... back in the classic day I remember that only 30% of the actual players were in templates and capped out. I feel this could be the reason you hit so hard back then on your heavy tank.

^^^^^ THIS!! Looking back, that's the reason my Armsman hit so damn hard. Many many people weren't tempd back in the day. Hell, a lot of people ran around sub 50 because it was such a bitch to level.

And everybody wasn't running around with spec AF.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 6:17 AM by pollojack
Surprised this thread got so far. The community literally voted for NF. To say the majority want OF when again, it was voted out, is silly.
Tue 11 Feb 2020 8:07 AM by Tritri
pollojack wrote:
Tue 11 Feb 2020 6:17 AM
Surprised this thread got so far. The community literally voted for NF. To say the majority want OF when again, it was voted out, is silly.

Pretty sure if we were to redo a vote to swap to OF, the vote would favor OF (well, if there wasn't the fact that OF if fuckedn hypothetically)

Just because they think it would fix something
Wed 12 Feb 2020 12:40 PM by Natashalove94
I completely agree especially with buffs, everyone should have equal buffs, not just those crappy alch pots you call buffs.

Live has buff tokens npc's and it's a much better system.
Wed 12 Feb 2020 1:35 PM by Riac
the vote could be 100% for OF, they cant do it. i really hope you all enjoy typing out the suggestion because i love coming on here and call all of you dumb.
Fri 14 Feb 2020 10:03 PM by stewbeedoo
I've gotta say - this thread really delivered.

Very entertaining. Keep going Castra!
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