Make water matter? - Phoenix Freeshard

I'm glad that we can't dive in NF on this server, but why are we able to move at full speed through water? You might as well change the textures on the water to land in that case and remove all the bridges. It would just be nice to have to strategize around water and for there to be real choke points. (I know choke points don't matter in high traffic areas, but if you're trying to solo in low traffic areas and there's literally nowhere you can hang around to increase your chances of running into someone other than directly on top of a dock or dungeon, it kinda sucks.)

Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:03 PM by Kurbsen

isnt water like 90% of speed?

Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:37 PM by joshisanonymous

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:03 PM
isnt water like 90% of speed?

Is it? I mean, it fast enough that I can't tell that it's any slower, so if it 90%, that doesn't exactly make it matter.

Sat 1 Feb 2020 10:15 PM by Cadebrennus

Agreed. I've been saying this forever.

Sat 1 Feb 2020 10:55 PM by Kurbsen

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:37 PM
Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:03 PM
isnt water like 90% of speed?

Is it? I mean, it fast enough that I can't tell that it's any slower, so if it 90%, that doesn't exactly make it matter.

if youre chasing someone in water, go on land to catch up, if youre being chased, go on land before you get caught. I'm definitely not against anything being changed to it

bring back mastery of swimming so you can make water kite groups a thing lmao

Sun 2 Feb 2020 9:48 PM by Isavyr

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sat 1 Feb 2020 8:03 PM
bring back mastery of swimming so you can make water kite groups a thing lmao

This is inherently anti-competitive. The few with it will easily dominate in the water. It's not good balance.

I think water should also be more penalizing with the intention of making choke points relevant again.

Sun 2 Feb 2020 9:59 PM by Sepplord

The only real problem with water are the invisible lurikeens.

It's impossible to gauge a hibgrp numbers when they are swimming. Impossible to see lurikeens splitting until they start casting etc...

Mon 3 Feb 2020 2:56 AM by sylvynyr

IMO one of the worst things about NF on live was the introduction of terrain movement restrictions and I dunno if I'm alone in this, but I am incredibly happy that this does not exist on Phoenix.

Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:23 AM by Tritri

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 9:59 PM
The only real problem with water are the invisible lurikeens.

It's impossible to gauge a hibgrp numbers when they are swimming. Impossible to see lurikeens splitting until they start casting etc...

It is an issue yeah, luri/kob/dwarves are hard to notice in water (oh noes, again Something for the mids ? Noway…

)
But I think it's not an easy fix since it may be a client issue

I would also like to see the speed a bit reduced in the water, it's 90% now but could be tone down to 80.. even 75%

I think it would be nice to have more strategic choices around water play

Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:53 AM by Sepplord

Tritri wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 9:23 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Sun 2 Feb 2020 9:59 PM
The only real problem with water are the invisible lurikeens.

It's impossible to gauge a hibgrp numbers when they are swimming. Impossible to see lurikeens splitting until they start casting etc...

It is an issue yeah, luri/kob/dwarves are hard to notice in water (oh noes, again Something for the mids ? Noway… )
But I think it's not an easy fix since it may be a client issue

I would also like to see the speed a bit reduced in the water, it's 90% now but could be tone down to 80.. even 75%

I think it would be nice to have more strategic choices around water play

Is it really that bad for dwarves/kobs? They are not invisible like lurikeens are they? (harder than the average-size races though)
I only know it from mid perspective, but when i swim on my kobolds/dwarves it looks like a lot is still sticking out of the surface, while my lurikeen looks like he is diving.

Imo the problem with water making you slower is that it shifts power towards caster-extend groups...which are already the meta-setup. Add swimmingbackwards at fullspeed into the mix for extra power. Kiting towards a body of water is easily possible everywhere and many of current fights already happen in shooting range to water or just directly in water.

Last but not least, wasn't the standard in NF always to have waterbreathing potions and/or ML'S that let you swim at full speed?
Isn't the 90% movespeed that is on phoenix already a bigger slowdown than back then?

Mon 3 Feb 2020 11:52 AM by Tritri

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:53 AM
Is it really that bad for dwarves/kobs? They are not invisible like lurikeens are they? (harder than the average-size races though)
I only know it from mid perspective, but when i swim on my kobolds/dwarves it looks like a lot is still sticking out of the surface, while my lurikeen looks like he is diving.

Imo the problem with water making you slower is that it shifts power towards caster-extend groups...which are already the meta-setup. Add swimmingbackwards at fullspeed into the mix for extra power. Kiting towards a body of water is easily possible everywhere and many of current fights already happen in shooting range to water or just directly in water.

Last but not least, wasn't the standard in NF always to have waterbreathing potions and/or ML'S that let you swim at full speed?
Isn't the 90% movespeed that is on phoenix already a bigger slowdown than back then?

From far away it's really hard to notice kobs and dwarves yeah, but it can also be because they are stuck in some troll's ass

Anyway, I agree with you, it would profit to caster setup… it would at least alter balance in a way, it may be a bit too much

And yeah, everyone got waterbreathing ML's to swim at full speed back in the day, but I already found it a bit stupid back in the day

I guess I would like to see what happened if water had a real strategic influence, but I would be ready to back out from it if it's too much of a balance shift

Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:59 PM by chryso

sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 2:56 AM
IMO one of the worst things about NF on live was the introduction of terrain movement restrictions and I dunno if I'm alone in this, but I am incredibly happy that this does not exist on Phoenix.

Have you tried walking up a tiny slope in some areas? It slows you down to rooted speed.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 5:28 PM by sylvynyr

chryso wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 2:59 PM
sylvynyr wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 2:56 AM
IMO one of the worst things about NF on live was the introduction of terrain movement restrictions and I dunno if I'm alone in this, but I am incredibly happy that this does not exist on Phoenix.

Have you tried walking up a tiny slope in some areas? It slows you down to rooted speed.

In my experience, only on zone walls/offlimit mountain areas ... not anything like NF did when it slowed you down on ANY incline and across ANY water in particular the swamp areas around certain keeps.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:16 PM by daytonchambers

while we're at it...

Jumping off the top of a bridge down into the water to escape should come with a penalty. You should take damage when falling into water, say 50% of what you would take if you landed on solid ground.

This, coupled with a bit of an decrease in swim speed, will really make bridges relevant.

Wed 5 Feb 2020 8:43 PM by Sepplord

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:16 PM
while we're at it...

Jumping off the top of a bridge down into the water to escape should come with a penalty. You should take damage when falling into water, say 50% of what you would take if you landed on solid ground.

This, coupled with a bit of an decrease in swim speed, will really make bridges relevant.

slower movement is problematic due to balance reasons, but i like the idea of having a little fall dmg in water...
a slight adjustment to your proposal though, instead of getting 50% less falling dmg, half the falldistance for dmg calculations. That would also increase the threshold for taking any dmg at all when falling into water while otherwise having a similar effect from really high hights

Wed 5 Feb 2020 10:57 PM by Isavyr

daytonchambers wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 7:16 PM
while we're at it...

Jumping off the top of a bridge down into the water to escape should come with a penalty. You should take damage when falling into water, say 50% of what you would take if you landed on solid ground.

This, coupled with a bit of an decrease in swim speed, will really make bridges relevant.

I misread your post the first time. I agree that coupling the two ideas makes bridges much more useful. I think bridges should be claimable, similar to how Gruenes created capture-the-flag points when creating tasks in OF. My idea is simple: hasteners on both sides, (optional) anti-stealth zone on top of the ramparts to provide casters with safety and remove them as stealth-zerg campspots, and place the flag in the center so people could fight over the bridge on both sides.

This will create another hub for fighting (albeit so close to the keep). Make the bridges relevant to sieging/defending keep. For example, when defended, each bridge adds 20% hp to keep doors, and repair also repairs 20% more. When sieging, each bridge adds 20% more siege damage to the local keep. This will create even more interesting 3-way fights at keeps, in my opinion.

Thu 6 Feb 2020 3:58 AM by daytonchambers

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Wed 5 Feb 2020 8:43 PM
slower movement is problematic due to balance reasons, but i like the idea of having a little fall dmg in water...
a slight adjustment to your proposal though, instead of getting 50% less falling dmg, half the falldistance for dmg calculations. That would also increase the threshold for taking any dmg at all when falling into water while otherwise having a similar effect from really high hights

Perhaps the balance can be addressed at the same time! 90% of land movement speed as it is currently... but NO speed songs from spells or hasteners work in the water. That way everyone is on equal footing, and absolutely gives people a reason to use the bridge.

As far as fall damage into water goes the percentage taken could be tackled by the devs as far as what makes the most sense balance-wise, just as long as that number isnt Zero =p

Thu 6 Feb 2020 6:09 AM by Cadebrennus

Excellent ideas Daytonchambers!

Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:25 AM by joshisanonymous

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:53 AM
Imo the problem with water making you slower is that it shifts power towards caster-extend groups...which are already the meta-setup. Add swimmingbackwards at fullspeed into the mix for extra power. Kiting towards a body of water is easily possible everywhere and many of current fights already happen in shooting range to water or just directly in water.

I'm having trouble seeing how this gives caster extend groups more power. They can extend into water, but then they move slower, too. If they could somehow convince a tank group to traverse water while they wait on the other side, sure, but I think that would only happen if you happen to run into each other from opposite sides of a river.

I mean, think about that lake in OF Emain: when did caster groups ever purposely run to that? Or the water in OF Jamtland?

Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:52 AM by Sepplord

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Sun 9 Feb 2020 3:25 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 3 Feb 2020 10:53 AM
Imo the problem with water making you slower is that it shifts power towards caster-extend groups...which are already the meta-setup. Add swimmingbackwards at fullspeed into the mix for extra power. Kiting towards a body of water is easily possible everywhere and many of current fights already happen in shooting range to water or just directly in water.

I'm having trouble seeing how this gives caster extend groups more power. They can extend into water, but then they move slower, too. If they could somehow convince a tank group to traverse water while they wait on the other side, sure, but I think that would only happen if you happen to run into each other from opposite sides of a river.

I mean, think about that lake in OF Emain: when did caster groups ever purposely run to that? Or the water in OF Jamtland?

Castranges/casttimes are the same, but movement speed is slower. That shifts balance towards castergroups and away from melees. Just like increasing the movementspeed would shift balance away from castergroups towards melees.

Regarding the few and small waterbodies in OF. i would say it wasn't really that practical, and "back then" people didn't use a lot of things that they do now because back then there were far more noobs and in general gaming behaviour was very different

Mon 10 Feb 2020 2:53 PM by joshisanonymous

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:52 AM
Castranges/casttimes are the same, but movement speed is slower. That shifts balance towards castergroups and away from melees. Just like increasing the movementspeed would shift balance away from castergroups towards melees.

Regarding the few and small waterbodies in OF. i would say it wasn't really that practical, and "back then" people didn't use a lot of things that they do now because back then there were far more noobs and in general gaming behaviour was very different

I mean, "back then" was a couple months ago, but sure, there weren't as many bodies of water.

And I understand that cast times aren't affected by being in water, but a melee group would have to follow a caster group into the water in the first place.

Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:31 PM by Sepplord

joshisanonymous wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 2:53 PM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 6:52 AM
Castranges/casttimes are the same, but movement speed is slower. That shifts balance towards castergroups and away from melees. Just like increasing the movementspeed would shift balance away from castergroups towards melees.

Regarding the few and small waterbodies in OF. i would say it wasn't really that practical, and "back then" people didn't use a lot of things that they do now because back then there were far more noobs and in general gaming behaviour was very different

I mean, "back then" was a couple months ago, but sure, there weren't as many bodies of water.

And I understand that cast times aren't affected by being in water, but a melee group would have to follow a caster group into the water in the first place.

Thinking about OF-waters more, it probably isn't that much of an issue (or one at all) when the fight starts outside water. Going into water slows you down earlier than the following group. So it balances out.

I disagree though, that an imbalance is ok as long as they disadvantaged side can just "stay away from water" to not be hurt by it. Everyone can just stay in the warcamp to not die the whole night too. Staying far away from water is not a realistic option in NF. While staying in water all the time is feasible.

Mon 10 Feb 2020 5:34 PM by joshisanonymous

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Mon 10 Feb 2020 3:31 PM
Thinking about OF-waters more, it probably isn't that much of an issue (or one at all) when the fight starts outside water. Going into water slows you down earlier than the following group. So it balances out.

I disagree though, that an imbalance is ok as long as they disadvantaged side can just "stay away from water" to not be hurt by it. Everyone can just stay in the warcamp to not die the whole night too. Staying far away from water is not a realistic option in NF. While staying in water all the time is feasible.

It's not feasible to stay in water all the time if no one will follow you into the water.

You may still disagree, but I think a more apt comparison would be a group circling one of their keeps, never moving much further than casting range from its walls, and trying to convince enemies to come attack them there.

At the end of the day, based on your group setup, you're always trying to lure people into terrain that is advantageous to you. Having water matter means that there's just that much more variety in how you can use terrain. I don't see that as a negative or even an imbalance in the same way that I don't when a solo tank hangs out just behind a wall of a bridge so that they can start right on top of a caster if one comes through.