Make Paladins Worth Playing in RVR

Started 4 Aug 2018
by beatz695
in Suggestions
Paladins took a huge hit with the endurance barrels... Much more than the other realms endurance classes because with Paladins the main thing that they brought to the group in classic was his endo... He is still a decent tank but with the endurance 4 barrels everyone will overlook a paladin for another dps like armsman or merc because there really isn't a need for anything else he brings to the table since his damage just isn't there in comparison to any other melee. I have a couple solutions in mind that could bring paladins back into rvr and that is the ability to run 2 chants at once... or a higher damage table.... or even giving paladins celerity, celerity being the more extreme suggestion but just anything. Im positive when server goes live the lack of people making paladins will be pretty severe because they know at 50 they will just be re rolling anyways. Im sure anyone playing alb currently in the beta will agree that paladins are just not needed in the games current state... The only time I can see a paladin being decent is really high rr so that they can go 2h and actually do some damage but until then unless you have friends or a guild that will carry you through rvr you wont achieve that.... Please don't kill my favorite class on this great server

Thanks,

Trevor
Sat 4 Aug 2018 9:02 AM by schreon
Absolutely. I believe this post touches a fundamental philosophical question. Will there be class rebalancing and finetuning at all, or is the prime directive rather to simulate 1.65 patch status ? I am wondering what the devs' long term goals are in this respect.

In my humble opinion, it would be great if the devs would introduce custom changes for classes in order to make every non-stealth class viable in group RvR. This would have many positive implications: Most people know classic DAoC for so many years (due to Uthgard) and official live DAoC is also well known / worn out. Thus, custom rebalancing which leads to new meta setups would be very exciting, even for long-time DAoC experts.

I believe most rebalancing / finetuning can be done without adding extra skills, but simply by adjusting the effectiveness of existing skills and styles.

In the case of paladin, the effectiveness of chanting skills would have to be adjusted to values where it just becomes viable to pick up a paladin --- but not above those values.

For example, everybody would agree that a healchant which heals 2000 HP per tick would be too strong, everyone would run with a paladin. However, I am sure there is a golden value somewhere between the current 37 HP every 8 seconds and 2000 HP every 8 seconds which would just make the paladin a viable option without making paladin overpowered. The adjustable parameters here are the number of HP healed and the frequency.

Let's compare the healchant to the Warden's bladeturn song. The bladeturn song blocks one melee attack every 6 seconds. That melee attack would ideally be a heavy 2h swing and in the worst case a fast one-handed swing. The fast one-handed swing would deal about 200 damage on average, the 2h swing 400 damage. That would be 300 Damage prevented every 6 seconds. Also, Bladeturn can prevent Slam, giving peelers an advantage but also may grant the crucial extra amount of time to finish that quickcast spell. Against magic attacks, bladeturn does nothing. If we assume that half of damage sources are magic, bladeturn prevents 150 damage every 6 seconds on average. Thus, a reasonable value for the Healchant could be near 150 HP healed every 6 seconds instead of 37 HP every 8 seconds. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more. While Bladeturn has some extra benefits regarding stun styles, the healchant always has a positive effect on all damaged characters.

This is just an example on how such rebalancing / fine-tuning could look like, maybe the numbers should be totally different. Excuse me if this somehwat hijacked the original post.
Sat 4 Aug 2018 9:30 AM by Ferrat
100% agree paladins are a waste of a slot in an RvR group with barrels, but also barrels make buffing a group with one shaman possible... we love the barrels, just help the class
Sat 4 Aug 2018 9:33 AM by Lance
MUH PALADIN IS OPPRESSED
Sat 4 Aug 2018 4:34 PM by Armsmancer
I always thought the idea of a shiny armor guy "chanting" would be singled out as the creepy dude in the group. Like is it chanting like ACDC "THUNDAAHHHHH" during the low parts or is it more creepy like the "ONE OF US ONE OF US" types of chanting....just..a weird dude. I know this doesn't really add to the discussion, but I wanted you all to share the visual I always get when people talk about Paladins chanting in the middle of battles.
Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:06 PM by Ganaka
I think the idea of everyone having unlimited buffs through a very cheap process is absurd. If everyone is buffed, then nobody is buffed and there is no difference. All that has occurred is the separation of people that 'live' in the game and those that play on a casual basis. Many casual players won't spend hours/days crafting and gathering ingredients to stay perma-buffed in RVR.

Buffs were added to some classes, and not to others, to create some sort of balance. ...
Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:12 PM by Quik
I still say pots should only give up to green buffs at best.

The problem is I see soloers scream they need to be competitive and that pots are needed for that.

Everyone being able to use pots takes away from those classes that can self buff, which is suppose to be special for them and its really not anymore.
Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:57 PM by beatz695
rather than celerity ( which would be great dont get me wrong) I think just beef there damage tables and give them 2 active chants so they can use there red resists or have spec af and DA up at once and not have that 3 second down time... Celerety needs to be mid exclusive due to the patch this is on but paladins are going to be one and far between because they will never be wanted in rvr ever. but if they had just a little bit more damage and more to offer from chants then they could be accepted again, your going to have a lot of people that did not play the beta fire up and roll a paladin as a necessary class to play in alb only to be utterly disappointed when they finally reach 50 and are ready to go rvr the one thing you build for the entire time you play... its going to be a bigger deal than people think.
Sat 4 Aug 2018 6:34 PM by Geek
beatz695 wrote:
Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:57 PM
rather than celerity ( which would be great dont get me wrong) I think just beef there damage tables and give them 2 active chants so they can use there red resists or have spec af and DA up at once and not have that 3 second down time... Celerety needs to be mid exclusive due to the patch this is on but paladins are going to be one and far between because they will never be wanted in rvr ever. but if they had just a little bit more damage and more to offer from chants then they could be accepted again, your going to have a lot of people that did not play the beta fire up and roll a paladin as a necessary class to play in alb only to be utterly disappointed when they finally reach 50 and are ready to go rvr the one thing you build for the entire time you play... its going to be a bigger deal than people think.

I love the idea of running two chants at once.
Sat 4 Aug 2018 7:14 PM by Lance
GIVE INTO POWER CREEP

MAKE PETS HIT FOR 1400
ABANDON HOPE
EVERYTHING IS FUTILE

GIVE EVERY REALM CELERITY
HOMOGENIZE THE CLASSES
MAKE EVERY LEVEL 34 STYLE AN ANYTIMER.
MAKE EVERY BACK STYLE A SNARE
MAKE THIS GAME LIKE LIVE AGAIN!! IT'S A FUCKING BADASS SERVER AND YOU AND I PLAY HERE BECAUSE LIVE IS AWESOME!!!
Sat 4 Aug 2018 8:19 PM by Quik
So someone wanting Paladins fixed to be used in RvR more is giving in to live?

You sir need to understand moderation...
Sat 4 Aug 2018 10:06 PM by Magesty
Lance wrote: GIVE INTO POWER CREEP

MAKE PETS HIT FOR 1400
ABANDON HOPE
EVERYTHING IS FUTILE

GIVE EVERY REALM CELERITY
HOMOGENIZE THE CLASSES
MAKE EVERY LEVEL 34 STYLE AN ANYTIMER.
MAKE EVERY BACK STYLE A SNARE
MAKE THIS GAME LIKE LIVE AGAIN!! IT'S A FUCKING BADASS SERVER AND YOU AND I PLAY HERE BECAUSE LIVE IS AWESOME!!!


Standard reaction by people who have PTSD from Mythic/EAs inability to perform anything but heavy handed changes. I was looking over some old patch notes and it is outrageous how needlessly aggressive they were when buffing/nerfing. This game has a lot of things that can be adjusted slightly to create better balance and instead they would do things like randomly giving classes leviathan or removing block and parry defensive penalties completely out of the blue.

Changes to the Paladin and a few other classes/lines that need it can be done tastefully and with respect to the theme and existing abilities of the class. Buffing chants, increasing base stats, etc.

Adding Celerity is not OK

This is a mythic-esque suggestion and way over compensates. It also trends towards homogenization of the realms which is the last thing anyone wants to see. Celerity is something healers get and it should remain that way. If changes are going to be made, and they really need to be, they should be approached cautiously and with respect to the existing role the Paladin fills.
Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:05 PM by beatz695
I'm patiently waiting for a response from a Dev, as I continue to be the ONLY pally anyone sees in rvr... im trying to keep the class alive give me just a small break here
Sun 5 Aug 2018 9:32 PM by Whitecrow
im Gone play mid as i never have done before.

I played abion 6 years

But there is lot gimpness in Albion.

Necro is pointless for rvr give them the Heratic.

Friair Rejuv line should be better the group heal over time is underpowerd
why not give them a single heal over time as well.
there should be Some kind group buff or something make them more wanted in Enchacment spec.
Other wise you hardly see any friairs.

compared to the Shaman and Warden there worst support class going.

paladins are still more useful then necro and Friair rvr belive it or not due one thing Slam.
Mon 6 Aug 2018 3:20 AM by Lance
Whitecrow wrote:
Sun 5 Aug 2018 9:32 PM
im Gone play mid as i never have done before.

I played abion 6 years

But there is lot gimpness in Albion.

Necro is pointless for rvr give them the Heratic.

Friair Rejuv line should be better the group heal over time is underpowerd
why not give them a single heal over time as well.
there should be Some kind group buff or something make them more wanted in Enchacment spec.
Other wise you hardly see any friairs.

compared to the Shaman and Warden there worst support class going.

paladins are still more useful then necro and Friair rvr belive it or not due one thing Slam.

This man makes an extremely good point!

We need to add catacombs classes! Without them, there is no true balance! Friars need love, too, so maybe consider adding in moderate stick heals... Nothing too heavy handed, like mythic did!

Speaking of ham-fisted class designs, we should just go ahead and remove the entire pet aspect of the necromancer. It's too clunky, and quite frankly a relic of the past.
Casting spells through a pet is just too problematic, and quite frankly, a chore.
Wardens should be given shield line, and MLs so they're not forgotten. Then we should consider possibly giving thanes an energy debuff, so they're not completely overshadowed by true tanks or casters.

I don't think any of these minor class changes would upset the game balance, whatsoever.

TIA, And god bless the gracious staff in which run this server
Mon 6 Aug 2018 6:09 AM by Magesty
Lance wrote:
Mon 6 Aug 2018 3:20 AM
This man makes an extremely good point!

We need to add catacombs classes! Without them, there is no true balance! Friars need love, too, so maybe consider adding in moderate stick heals... Nothing too heavy handed, like mythic did!

Speaking of ham-fisted class designs, we should just go ahead and remove the entire pet aspect of the necromancer. It's too clunky, and quite frankly a relic of the past.
Casting spells through a pet is just too problematic, and quite frankly, a chore.
Wardens should be given shield line, and MLs so they're not forgotten. Then we should consider possibly giving thanes an energy debuff, so they're not completely overshadowed by true tanks or casters.

I don't think any of these minor class changes would upset the game balance, whatsoever.

TIA, And god bless the gracious staff in which run this server

That’s a lot of text to say nothing of value
Mon 6 Aug 2018 8:34 AM by vance2
If you put MLs in for one class it wouldn’t really be fair. All would need it and tbh those helped ruin the game. I for one enjoy the classic feel of this server. Same with cata classes. Leave well enough alone the server is great as t is minor fixes would be nice and probably will come but if you take the classic out of it, which the majority are here for, it becomes another empty server
Mon 6 Aug 2018 8:38 AM by schreon
1.65 is a great base to start upon, however it needs further balancing. That balancing should take place in the form of tiny, moderate changes - not the extreme, destructive "Mythic way".

Adding whole new skills/styles/spells as suggested in a lot of the posts above comes with some severe problems:

- It costs the dev staff a lot more time to implement (take a look on the bug tracker to see why that is obviously be a problem)
- It has the potential to destroy the feel of 1.65 instead of enhancing it
- It has the potential to have unexpected consequences, disrupting the overall balance in an undesirable way

Thus I would like to repeat my previous statement: IMHO, the parameters of existing skills and spells should first be fine-tuned in order to bring forgotten classes back to the table. Maybe also adjust/change weapon style effects (like changing the Celtic Spear level 50-style bleeding which grants the enemy 40 seconds of total CC immunity to something more useful like a DOT with a much shorter duration, like 10 seconds, but the same total amount of damage). All this potentially improves balance, but strictly keeps the classic DAoC feel.
Mon 6 Aug 2018 2:12 PM by Magesty
vance2 wrote:
Mon 6 Aug 2018 8:34 AM
If you put MLs in for one class it wouldn’t really be fair. All would need it and tbh those helped ruin the game. I for one enjoy the classic feel of this server. Same with cata classes. Leave well enough alone the server is great as t is minor fixes would be nice and probably will come but if you take the classic out of it, which the majority are here for, it becomes another empty server

That user is being sarcastic and condescending. He is, without actually directly taking a stance, saying that any changes made will lead to a slippery slope and inevitable reversion to a live-like state. It’s a common logical fallacy and is especially prevalent in these types of discussion.
Tue 7 Aug 2018 12:38 PM by Chaskha
To keep on the AD&D spirit, I'd give something like Divine Shine to the Pally.
Divine Shine.
3s to cast. Focused Spell, cost 25 mana/cast (+5 per tick) - interruptable.
Target is protected by an angel (pet) and cannot be interrupted until angel dies or the spell is interrupted.
Range: 500

So Pally could focus-invoke an angel and grant MoC to an ally. Said MoC would last till:
- Target is dead
- Pally got interrupted
- Angel (pally's pet) is killed
- Pally ran out of mana

Maybe it is OP but it's a beta and beta is for testing imho
Tue 7 Aug 2018 6:46 PM by Lance
Chaskha wrote:
Tue 7 Aug 2018 12:38 PM
To keep on the AD&D spirit

Oh boy, I can't wait to multi/dual class!

Czech out my Mage/Thief. I'm invisible, I've casted simulacrum, which effectively creates a clone of myself, which I control. I use my clone to cast wish, which allows me reshape reality as I see fit.

A genie appears before me.

I wish that all classes were balanced fairly and equally.

Your wish is my command.

I look around myself, I realize my wish for equality has homogenized the classes. If everything is special, nothing is special. I realize that in my optimism, I created a world that is bland, and without meaning.

I must have a very low wisdom score.
Wed 8 Aug 2018 8:40 AM by Chaskha
Lance wrote:
Tue 7 Aug 2018 6:46 PM
Chaskha wrote:
Tue 7 Aug 2018 12:38 PM
To keep on the AD&D spirit
[...]
A genie appears before me.
- I wish that all classes were balanced fairly and equally.
- Your wish is my command.
I look around myself, I realize my wish for equality has homogenized the classes. If everything is special, nothing is special. I realize that in my optimism, I created a world that is bland, and without meaning.
I must have a very low wisdom score.

You're right and I love cynicism but nobody ask homogenization.
The original post claims Paladin has nothing to bring in RvR. I don't think giving a group strength to a class so it becomes useful in RvR is the same as making mirrored classes in all realms (bland).
Wed 8 Aug 2018 1:54 PM by schreon
I totally agree that mirroring is the most cheap and boring way to circumvent balancing issues.

Wrapping up the discussion thus far:

It is necessary to re-balance the strength and group-viability of all classes while maintaining the distinctiveness of the classes and the realms.

There are the follwing types of changes that can be done for each specline:

a) Change the parameters of existing skills/spells/styles.
Example: Reduce the duration of the armsman snarestyle anytimer "Crippling Blow" from 12 seconds to 8 seconds.

b) Modify the effect of existing skills/spells/styles
Example: Make the bleeding effects of all styles of all classes not breaking CC.

c) Remove existing skills/spells/styles.
Example: Remove the Realm Ability "Mastery of Stealth" from all stealthing characters.

d) Add new skills/spells/styles
Example: Add a cooldown-ability to the Paladin chanting specline which temporarily increases the block rate of the paladin by X percent for Y seconds.

A combination of changes of type c) and d) have the potential of leading to unwanted homogenization of classes. That is what Mythic did in the past: Giving all realms celerity for example. Or giving the bard root, etc etc. Thus, due to the potential of heavily interrupting current balance and the risk of emerging on realm/class homogenity, those changes will have to be implemented with very great care.

For example, one combination of type b) and c) has actually been implemented already: the Phoenix devs have removed the MoS RA and added it to the stealth specline instead.

Changes of type a) do not have the potential of leading to realm homogenity at all. The skills/styles/spells are already there, the classes are currently very distinct, so adjusting their effectiveness can only change class/specline strength and viability but not class/specline distinctiveness.

I believe it would be a worthwile goal to make every specline in 1.65 viable by changing parameters of existing skills/spells/styles without disrupting class/specline distinctiveness.
Tue 14 Aug 2018 5:46 PM by Fiore
Quik wrote:
Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:12 PM
I still say pots should only give up to green buffs at best.

The problem is I see soloers scream they need to be competitive and that pots are needed for that.

Everyone being able to use pots takes away from those classes that can self buff, which is suppose to be special for them and its really not anymore.

This all would stop if the gms would remove potions at all. Groups would need the classes they need to work properly ( Pala included ) and solo players would have an equal chance in 1vs 1 cause RAS would determine about bonuses on various stats and not potions. But thats not gonna happen so no need to discuss that further more. Paladin will get reduced to an pure PVE Endubot and in a couple of months you will have a hardtime to find a proper group to get a char to 50. But i doubt it will take months. It would be wise to start with a necro in the first place and PL your Guildmates from the start then thats likely gonna happen.
Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:22 PM by Isavyr
An interesting part about DAoC's development is that the character classes were created at distinctly different times than the realm ability system, and there are instances where they don't mix correctly--for example, the Paladin.

A paladin didn't hit as hard as an armsman, but it had chants! A champion can't match a hero in strictly melee, but it has magic! However when it comes to RvR, Mythic realized that a champion is preferable to a hero because it can both disrupt at range and debuff targets, while hitting reasonably hard. Thus, when they added determinism, they made it such that magic classes do not get it, only pure melee classes. While this was a ham-fisted approach to balance, it clearly made primary tanks a lot more desirable--and the reason for the current classic meta.

The problem with this approach is that it completely neglected what each magic class did for its group. While the thane and champion were better than their main tank counterparts before determinism because their damage was close while also having ranged interruptions and ranged damage, the Paladin started as strictly no ranged abilities. They were a defensive, team-oriented melee. A melee that was skipped over for determination at this point.

While Phoenix has given the Paladin Det 3, it's committing to the same logic Mythic made--Paladin, Thane, Champion are equivalent. But as written above, they are quite different in a very significant way. For the Paladin to serve its purpose before God and its people, the Paladin needs full determination.

(and make sure that damn taunt is only for PvE as it was originally intended)
Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:30 AM by mamesjoore
Just multiply the effectiveness of the chants by 1.5 or make multiple pallys' chants stack. Full groups of paladins would be a right laugh.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 8:29 AM by Ambron
Just take the potions/barrels out of the game and the Paladin has its raison d'etre back and the game makes more fun again. As well it brings the people more together for grouping because they need PoM and Endu n stuff.

Nobody needs potions anyway. Modern rubbish.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:18 AM by Danaeh
Just remove endo pots
Fri 17 Aug 2018 4:46 PM by Ganaka
Allow only one buff from one potion active at one time. Drinking a potion will disable the previous potion buff before applying a new buff.
Fri 17 Aug 2018 5:01 PM by aso
paladin is fine
dont need any changes
if you dont like it, play something else
Sat 18 Aug 2018 12:41 PM by Chimosh
I agree,

Pots or item charges should never replace class abilities or be equal power.

This should be removed from the game.
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