Introduce Level-Cap tied to Realm Rank

Introduce a level cap which is tied to certain realm ranks.

An example level-cap/RR map could be:

Level - RR
1 - 1L1
2 - 1L2
...
10 - 2L0
11 - 2L1
...
20 - 3L0
...
30 - 4L0
...
40 - 5L0
...
50 - 6L0

For example, you can't level above 20 before hitting 3L0.

Of course, the RRs suggested above are debateable, and 6L0 as a requirement for Level 50 may seem extreme at first. However, this probably would have the following positive impacts:

- Building temps and employing crafters is rewarding starting right from level 1

- Overall progress is greatly slowed down, massively extending server longevity in a fun way without uthgardesque xp grind

- People are forced to enter RvR or Battlegrounds immediately, enabling PvP action right from the start

- The RR gradient is limited, you don't need to be farmed by RR10s while you enter with your fresh 1L0 character ( except you choose to enter high level RvR with your low levels )

- Getting level 50 actually will be an achievement

- You get to know your class in PvP from level 1, where things are going much slower and your quickbar contains fewer skills.

- It will be much much easier to convince friends who never played DAoC before to join, because they get the full expierence directly after creating their first character.

Thank you for reading.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 5:30 PM by zulgz

what on erf

Tue 21 Aug 2018 5:31 PM by heardstheword

Ok, I'll humor you.

This would be tough since BG's are only levels 20-34

Tue 21 Aug 2018 5:40 PM by schreon

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 5:31 PM
This would be tough since BG's are only levels 20-34

Enable all the battlegrounds like on live, then.

I'm serious about this. Don't you think the way to 50 would be much more fun if you can enjoy PvP and PvE alternatingly instead of one big 1-50 marathon ending in a situation where longtime players dominate everything with their high RRs and you get destroyed with your low RR?

Tue 21 Aug 2018 6:36 PM by heardstheword

Realistically,
Forcing people to reach specific Realm Ranks prior to leveling does not sound found. It sounds like an unnecessary barrier to a game and funneling the population into a specific method of playing a video that has a ton of different avenues for enjoying it (crafting, RVR, PvE, RP, farming).

Tue 21 Aug 2018 6:53 PM by Magesty

This idea is so rife with issues I'm not even sure where to begin.

For now how about addressing what I see as the largest issue:

You are suggesting a leveling system that is essentially completely reliant on other players. Not only that, but one that is completely reliant on other players from enemy realms. Say I play off-peak hours and I want to roll a new Paladin. This is a month or two after the server goes live and the population isn't bottlenecked at low levels. What do I do as a level one? I have to go to the level one BG and hope that there are other people starting a character at the same time. Then I have to hope that whatever class I'm playing is capable of killing them or, alternatively, there are members of my realm that are willing to group with me to help me get the RPs I need to be able to level. So instead of being able to just log on and get some progress on my new Shitadin I have to hope that conditions are right for me to even begin to level.

"Wow," I'd probably think to myself, "I wish I could just progress on my own time instead of getting killed over and over again by Enchanters and Spiritmasters in the Proving Grounds to unlock my ability to level."

So, two hours of getting killed by pets and ignored by more capable realm mates later and I've managed to secure my first kill-- a half health Shadowblade. As I look over the combat log I feel my stomach sink. A line of text reads: "This enemy has been killed recently and isn't worth RP."

Time seems to stop as I stare at the respawn timer. I contemplate what has brought me to this point. Why am I doing this? I type /rel and /q in what feels like one motion. I have been here before. So many times. After the longest minute of my life the sitting Paladin vanishes and the character selection screen loads up. Familiar faces stare back at me. A level 3 friar. A level 6 cleric. A level 10 Wizard. A wisp of a smile comes to my face as I remember the days I had spent playing each one of them, but it quickly fades as I realize my love for this ancient game is finally dying.

The only players thriving under the new rules seem to be organized guild groups and a few assassins that were able to get the required realm ranks while the server was still bustling. RvR is a wasteland of past-their-prime nostalgia freaks doing the same thing night in and night out that they have done for almost two decades now. Any new player that somehow manages to get RR6 and unlock level 50 is promptly steamrolled by the highly organized and templated "in crowd".

As this realization washes over me I look around my computer room. It's like I'm seeing it for the first time. Clothes strewn about. Dirty plates stacked on a long unused weight bench. I sniff the air. What is that? Mildew? It stinks in here. I walk over to my window and pull up the blinds. It is beautiful outside. The sunlight stirs something in me.

Fast forward ten years and I'm in the best shape of my life. I have a better career and a beautiful family. Life is good. No... Life is great. I contemplate what has gotten me to this point. It all stemmed from that night when I finally quit playing DAoC. When the spell was finally broken. I feel like I need to thank the person responsible. I pull up the old forums and find the post that started it all. Hopefully he was in a good guild and is still able to play. I begin to write.

"Dear Schreon..."

Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:07 PM by schreon

heardstheword wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 6:36 PM
Realistically,
Forcing people to reach specific Realm Ranks prior to leveling does not sound found. It sounds like an unnecessary barrier to a game and funneling the population into a specific method of playing a video that has a ton of different avenues for enjoying it (crafting, RVR, PvE, RP, farming).

Isn't the same thing happening already regarding RvR-only players being forced to do all facets of PvE? Why not also forcing PvE only players ( who I doubt exist in daoc ) to do RvR?

Also, all those other avenues would still be there. Not only that, they would even be much more interesting due to the many small intermediate barriers. Low level crafters would get jobs. Farming good low level RoGs as well as OTDs would have a point.

The RR barriers dont need to be as extreme as I posted above. Something like RR5 for level 50 would also be nice. Or even much lower. Maybe a blockwise system would even be better: e.g. RR2 unlocks levels 20-30, RR3 unlocks 31-40, RR4 unlocks 41-50. Coming with that, according battlegrounds for each block/range would be necessary.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 7:16 PM by schreon

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 6:53 PM
This idea is so rife with issues I'm not even sure where to begin.

For now how about addressing what I see as the largest issue:

You are suggesting a leveling system that is essentially completely reliant on other players. Not only that, but one that is completely reliant on other players from enemy realms. Say I play off-peak hours and I want to roll a new Paladin. This is a month or two after the server goes live and the population isn't bottlenecked at low levels. What do I do as a level one? I have to go to the level one BG and hope that there are other people starting a character at the same time. Then I have to hope that whatever class I'm playing is capable of killing them or, alternatively, there are members of my realm that are willing to group with me to help me get the RPs I need to be able to level. So instead of being able to just log on and get some progress on my new Shitadin I have to hope that conditions are right for me to even begin to level.

"Wow," I'd probably think to myself, "I wish I could just progress on my own time instead of getting killed over and over again by Enchanters and Spiritmasters in the Proving Grounds to unlock my ability to level."

So, two hours of getting killed by pets and ignored by more capable realm mates later and I've managed to secure my first kill-- a half health Shadowblade. As I look over the combat log I feel my stomach sink. A line of text reads: "This enemy has been killed recently and isn't worth RP."

Time seems to stop as I stare at the respawn timer. I contemplate what has brought me to this point. Why am I doing this? I type /rel and /q in what feels like one motion. I have been here before. So many times. After the longest minute of my life the sitting Paladin vanishes and the character selection screen loads up. Familiar faces stare back at me. A level 3 friar. A level 6 cleric. A level 10 Wizard. A wisp of a smile comes to my face as I remember the days I had spent playing each one of them, but it quickly fades as I realize my love for this ancient game is finally dying.

The only players thriving under the new rules seem to be organized guild groups and a few assassins that were able to get the required realm ranks while the server was still bustling. RvR is a wasteland of past-their-prime nostalgia freaks doing the same thing night in and night out that they have done for almost two decades now. Any new player that somehow manages to get RR6 and unlock level 50 is promptly steamrolled by the highly organized and templated "in crowd".

As this realization washes over me I look around my computer room. It's like I'm seeing it for the first time. Clothes strewn about. Dirty plates stacked on a long unused weight bench. I sniff the air. What is that? Mildew? It stinks in here. I walk over to my window and pull up the blinds. It is beautiful outside. The sunlight stirs something in me.

Fast forward ten years and I'm in the best shape of my life. I have a better career and a beautiful family. Life is good. No... Life is great. I contemplate what has gotten me to this point. It all stemmed from that night when I finally quit playing DAoC. When the spell was finally broken. I feel like I need to thank the person responsible. I pull up the old forums and find the post that started it all. Hopefully he was in a good guild and is still able to play. I begin to write.

"Dear Schreon..."

That is a very well written post, thanks for your efforts. Haha.

Seriously, I fully understand your concerns, but I think there are many measures that could be taken in order to avoid such scenarios. For example, killable realm guards that grant some RPs for example, which are sufficient to make progress when playing off primetimes, but will be down most of the time when there is enough action.

Also, dont all your worries also apply to your characters' progress from level 50 on? My suggestion would at least give you opportunities to enjoy RvR in early levels, also making reaching level 50 fast not as important as it is currently.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:25 PM by Magesty

What I’m saying, and I think this is just one of the potential flaws with this idea, is that progress in this system will be gated by variables that are outside a player’s control.

Instead of being able to simply solo blue->orange mobs when they want to progress they have now have to find enemy players and be able to beat those enemy players. Alternatively they have to find allies willing to group up and then find enemy players.

If your suggestion to alleviate the issue of being unable to find an adequate number of beatable opponents is to essentially pile on more PvE before being able to even gain levels we are already at an impasse. This directly counters the entire point of the system with the exception of forcing the player to spend more time sub-50.

In a situation where the server is at low population for one reason or another this setup also serves to disperse the population into a ton of different areas. If we learned anything from numerous expansions (LoTM being the most egregious offender) it is not good to divide up a population anymore than is necessary to facilitate an experience that isn’t monotonous. The goal is to funnel players into a smaller portion of the game so they can interact/raid/RvR on a large scale. Also, once the population begins to wane the world won’t feel devoid of life because eventually all players will be in RvR and high end PvP zones.

When thinking about an idea like this it is also important to consider how the game was designed. The vast majority of the game’s content is for level 50+ play. Many class defining abilities are only gained at the higher levels. If I’m playing a Reaver I’m not a huge fan of having to spam Indigosnake for two months while I slog through my 40s on a sub-optimal class.

I get that Caledonia is really fun right now though.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:46 PM by relvinian

Caledonia illustrates that people would rather pvp than xp but they don't want to work too hard.

Fast xp to get to 50 and fast ways to get to each other is what is good.

Another thing which would be good is bgs all the way to 44 so people could xp in bgs and then graduate to the big boy rvr bg

Right now about 25% of the population is above lvl 34

If instant 30 remained a thing then the population on live version would also look something like this.

People want to have fun and get to fun whatever fun is

Tue 21 Aug 2018 10:03 PM by schreon

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:25 PM
What I’m saying, and I think this is just one of the potential flaws with this idea, is that progress in this system will be gated by variables that are outside a player’s control.

But this is inherent to RvR, which is the high-end content. What is the difference of standing at a milegate without inc compared to standing at a battleground bridge without inc?

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:25 PM
If your suggestion to alleviate the issue of being unable to find an adequate number of beatable opponents is to essentially pile on more PvE before being able to even gain levels we are already at an impasse. This directly counters the entire point of the system with the exception of forcing the player to spend more time sub-50.

A concept like this was live many years ago. There were mobs named Doppelgangers scattered over whole NF. Upon kill they gave some RPs. When nothing was going on, people roamed NF and hunted those mobs. It worked great: there were non-elite groups and smallmen all over NF and you got nice fights all the time. The same would be true with battlegrounds including such mobs and an RR-bound Level Cap.

Magesty wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:25 PM
In a situation where the server is at low population for one reason or another this setup also serves to disperse the population into a ton of different areas. If we learned anything from numerous expansions (LoTM being the most egregious offender) it is not good to divide up a population anymore than is necessary to facilitate an experience that isn’t monotonous. The goal is to funnel players into a smaller portion of the game so they can interact/raid/RvR on a large scale. Also, once the population begins to wane the world won’t feel devoid of life because eventually all players will be in RvR and high end PvP zones.

When thinking about an idea like this it is also important to consider how the game was designed. The vast majority of the game’s content is for level 50+ play. Many class defining abilities are only gained at the higher levels. If I’m playing a Reaver I’m not a huge fan of having to spam Indigosnake for two months while I slog through my 40s on a sub-optimal class.

That would be a matter of scaling. Both the RR boundaries as well as the amount of RPs gained by those Doppelganger-like Battleground mobs can be modified in order to strike the right balance.

I fully understand your concern of a low pop that is scattered among many levels. However that somewhat contradicts the goal of this server to not be instant 50 and to stretch progression so that players dont max out and leave after a few months.

Thus it will always be about a compromise of overall progress speed and server longevity. If progress is too slow and people are scattered too heavily, the server will starve. And if progress is too fast, people will get bored quickly and the server will die out quickly, too.

This idea is about stretching the content while making the time fun to players who play through it. Your concern about population scatter is serious, but it can be mitigated by choosing battleground level ranges wisely. For example, 3 ranges + lvl 50 endgame: 1-20, 21-35, 36-49, with an RR barrier each at 20, 35 and 49.

I believe it is better to separate high end/ high RR chars from the rest a bit and slow fown their high RR progress rather than letting everyone rush through to 50 only to get slaughtered until reaching RR4-5. Why not split the RR1-5 part off and put that part of the population into battlegrounds?

Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:16 AM by Frigzy

I like the intent of the idea and I can see how it's appealing in theory.

However, as Magesty said, there are plenty of flaws with the idea. I think the main one being primarily that instead of enticing players to participate in RvR before 50, it simply forces them.

There are very few good game designs that force players into making uncomfortable choices.

The current insta 30 setting is quite a good experiment in this regard. You can easily roll a level 30 character and start PvPing from the start. However, XP in a FG or when you are not a high DPS caster is quite slow. Also, there are plenty of players conning orange or even red to you at this point. You know you're not getting everything out of our character just yet. So, the choice between spending a couple hours in PvE in order to PvP with greater returns later becomes quite interesting. Not because you HAVE to be 34 to participate, but because investing PvE-time into getting to 33 or 34 is going to pay off, even if its merely perception.

What we are seeing now is that while most players started out insta-RvRing when /level 30 got implemented, most players have by now invested at least some time in PvE and the average level range of players in Cale has gone up significantly.

The general tendency for players is to compete at their optimal strength. This is why people form groups and get their gear sorted. This is also why on Uthgard's relaunch people rushed to 50 before they set foot in RvR zones (and BGs were thus also ingored virtually completely).

I believe the key aspect in creating a sustainable and widespread (in level ranges) RvR active server is to make A) the RvR itself very easily accessible and worthwhile (little to no time wasted finding action) and B) the relative advantage gained through PvEing worthwhile yet not obviously the better choice.

The ideal situation is one where people feel comfortable RvRing at suboptimal specs and levels because they can enjoy themselves and progress their characters significantly when doing so, but at the same time realize that it might at some point be interesting to invest some time in PvE to touch up certain other areas of character progression as well.

The challenge lies in finding the right balance between the benefits of RvR (fun) and PvE (character progression). Not only in BGs, but most importantly in 35+ RvR.

The advantage of simply powering through from 36 to 50 and gearing up vs. the benefit of hopping in the RvR zone at levels 35-49 is -at this point- poorly balanced. In fact, it was quite poorly balanced for the BGs as well before /level 30 hit the server.

I believe that in order to improve this balance, more character progression benefits should be handed over to the RvR aspect of the game so that the relative benefit of PvE over RvR diminishes and people will feel more at ease RvRing at lower levels with suboptimal setups.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:23 AM by Frigzy

PS: I think we can all agree that if a server setting would make it so that players choose to participate in the BGs and Frontier RvR as soon as they are able to, rather than take the obvious PvE-to-50 route, it would mean a HUGE success for the server and classic DAoC in general.

People are not excited to ding 50. People are excited to have intense RvR action.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 1:22 AM by relvinian

I think RR caps based on time since server launch might be considered.

1. DF for all for first 2 weeks.
2. No keep takes or relics for first 2 weeks.
3. 1-30 days from launch cap RR at 5l0
4. 31-60 RR6
5. After 2 months no cap.

Would also say don't put "score" in and give all realms same chance to xp for 2 weeks.

Sounds nerfish but players could get 2 toons to 5 then two to 6 if they were hardcore. What do you need my cleric or my minstrel?

Wed 22 Aug 2018 10:10 AM by schreon

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:16 AM
The ideal situation is one where people feel comfortable RvRing at suboptimal specs and levels because they can enjoy themselves and progress their characters significantly when doing so, but at the same time realize that it might at some point be interesting to invest some time in PvE to touch up certain other areas of character progression as well.

The challenge lies in finding the right balance between the benefits of RvR (fun) and PvE (character progression). Not only in BGs, but most importantly in 35+ RvR.

...

I believe that in order to improve this balance, more character progression benefits should be handed over to the RvR aspect of the game so that the relative benefit of PvE over RvR diminishes and people will feel more at ease RvRing at lower levels with suboptimal setups.

This would require rebalancing of the classes at all levels. However that is also true with my initial suggestion.

The question is, do we want people to rush to level 50 quickly, effectively having something between uthgard and a instant50 server. That would render everything below maximum useless ( especially crafters ) .

Or do we want epic character progression which includes RvR at all levels ?

Considering Magesty's concern regarding a low population which is scattered over a range of 50 levels, I tend to agree that my initial suggestion is counter productive in this sense. However, is pooling all players in the same high end game really what we want ?

I tend to believe that it would be more enjoyable to protect new, imperfect characters from temped High RRs. There has to be something in between. Whether it being something like Cathal Valley open all time, accessible to all levels up to 50 but with an RR4 cap. It should also include some stuff that grants bonus XP as well as RPs ( like doppelganger mobs ).

This would split the population in only 2 halves, motivating players to bring their unfinished characters to RvR.

An alternative to hard RR bound level caps would be to introduce like 5% XP bonus per realm level. Thus a character with 1L5 would enjoy a 25% xp bonus, 2L0 50%, 3L0 100%, etc. Therefore slow down basic XP a bit. That would greatly encourage and reward people for early RvR without forcing them.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 11:05 AM by Frigzy

schreon wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 10:10 AM
The question is, do we want people to rush to level 50 quickly, effectively having something between uthgard and a instant50 server. That would render everything below maximum useless ( especially crafters ) .

Or do we want epic character progression which includes RvR at all levels ?

I think rushing to 50 will always remain a 'thing'. However, I do agree that we definitely need to prevent players from rushing to 50 through grinding in PvE only. RvR should be interwoven throughout the whole journey.

In terms of crafting, I think it's not too bad if the real benefit of it only shines at level 50. Except perhaps for trinketing. Crafting simply takes up a lot of time and resources that usually don't pay off well during the leveling phase. You outlevel those efforts way too easily.

I've done my fair share of making "leveling templates" on Uthgard and it takes just about having all crafters, and a shitload of time and effort to do so. I really don't want to go back to that.

I believe the RoG aspect of phoenix is something they've got right. Min-maxing gear should not be something you have to be worried about during your journey to 50.

schreon wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 10:10 AM
An alternative to hard RR bound level caps would be to introduce like 5% XP bonus per realm level. Thus a character with 1L5 would enjoy a 25% xp bonus, 2L0 50%, 3L0 100%, etc. Therefore slow down basic XP a bit. That would greatly encourage and reward people for early RvR without forcing them.

This is actually a creative idea that's worth thinking through. I could see potential issues with players outleveling others in a grp though?

One thing I would like to see prevented is the splitting of the population under 50. I like BGs as a teaser, but I believe RvR related action above 35 should be centered around the Frontiers and DF. Once you start splitting up these level ranges, you end up effectively splitting up the entire playerbase. All casuals will simply prefer BG RvR, yet they will feel stuck in terms of character progression while the more dedicated players will dominate the Frontiers, leaving much of its potential untouched. Also, this creates a very stale RvR environment for both parties in the long run. I think this is a big mistake to make.

The ideal solution -imo- integrates character progression into RvR participation in a way that players will always have a good reason to be active in the RvR zones, be it BGs or the Frontiers, even when they are not optimally kitted out.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 8:02 PM by Tyton

I personally do not like the idea of tying RR to Levels - seems unnecessary.