Increase stealth detection - Phoenix Freeshard

Maybe it's just me and I have crappy internet, but unless I am stood on another stealthers toe I cannot see them at all. Like a detection radius of about 10.
I like that SH is gone, it made archers really hard to play solo/duo as you would eat a PA, I like that TS is gone as it's only fair.

I don't know if I'm just remembering new MoS (haven't played a stealther at all for like 8 years) but I don't remember it ever being this hard to find other stealthers. Like we will see each other stealth run around in small circles for a few mins unstealth, they do the same chase a bit stealth repeat until one of you hits a DD charge on the other to stop re-stealth.

As the biggest draw of being a stealther is solo fights v other stealthers I think the ranges need looking at. Not to favor any one class, just across the board (maybe except for minstrels that should have stealth taken away from them, full stop). like maybe 250 radii for 50 composite stealth or something. Don't know the exact distances of mechanics, just that right now, you can know there is another stealther right next to you and spend 30 mins looking for each other to no avail.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 12:40 PM by heardstheword

A few changes caused this.

MoS is now automatic for stealthers based on your base spec of stealth (5, 10, 15, 20, 25, etc.). MoS does not increase your stealth detection; it is purely for stealth walking speed. Stealth detection is purely based on the level of your enemy and your composite stealth.

Composite stealth higher than 50 is basically negligible. Since everyone gets composite 50 stealth anyways, you get the minimum detection distance for *most* stealthers uncovering each other, which is 250 for assassins and 150 for archers.

It kinda sucks for the wide open maps of frontiers. You are likely walking within 10-15ft of a stealth, and you would never see them.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 12:48 PM by relvinian

Would like to see stealth over 50 tested.

50+15 vs say 39+11

Does stealth over 50 increase detection (shouldn't but does it?)

Does stealth over 50 increase ability to be near higher lvl mobs (it should)

Does stealth over 50 decrease chance for crit shot to reveal archer?

I'm going to have to wait for instant 50 to test this myself.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 12:57 PM by heardstheword

I believe the formula for stealth detection (removing MoS/Detect Hidden/Camo) is heavily reliant on player level matching composite stealth level.

I'll look around. I know someone posted about being 51+ in composite and said the difference is no small that a human eye would struggle to tell the difference in detection distance.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:05 PM by Isavyr

I've long believed the stealth is way too strong, and it serves as a detriment to overall gameplay. The high stealth invisibility serves stealthers with poor judgment, as even the most vulnerable of positions--for example, inbetween the milegate doors--still provides relative safety. Stealthers will go right past each other, completely unaware of one another.

Therefore, the best stealth wars are at lower level where people can actively seek each other out. They become just bizarre gameplay past level 25 where it relies largely on luck. In the end, the system should reward intelligent placement and not be a near-complete blanket that requires zero subtlety.

I think it'd be great to make small change, observe behavior, and see if there are any unintended consequences.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:14 PM by Ceen

Well the benefit of speccing stealth should be you are stealthed. I like it

Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:27 PM by Isavyr

Ceen wrote: ↑
Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:14 PM
Well the benefit of speccing stealth should be you are stealthed. I like it

That's a good point. With current system, speccing high stealth is also unnecessary.

edit: heardstheword implied but didn't outright say this.

Wed 15 Aug 2018 4:38 PM by phixion

I've not been able to test this, but if it plays like it does on Live it should remain how it is. I've never had a problem with the way stealth works and I've played stealthers my entire DAoC career. Sometimes you get the jump, other times the enemy does, it comes down to reactions and not much else.

Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:38 AM by Cirath

The detection ranges are the same as always, its the increased movement speed IMO. you move past each other so quickly you are in and out of the detection bubble before it pulses. Lag doesnt help. It seems visibles have an easier time popping a stealther than another stealther.

Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:16 PM by heardstheword

Cirath wrote: ↑
Thu 16 Aug 2018 12:38 AM
The detection ranges are the same as always, its the increased movement speed IMO. you move past each other so quickly you are in and out of the detection bubble before it pulses. Lag doesnt help. It seems visibles have an easier time popping a stealther than another stealther.

My SB was only able to pop stealthers when DF was open to everyone. It helped to have 'designated' walking routes for most people. If there was a stealther, we were nearly guaranteed to walk through each other due to the design of DF. In frontiers, it's basically impossible to walk 'through' another stealther. Only the milegates provide any chance of stealthers seeing each other.

The bubble range is just too small for the wide expanse of frontiers. 15ft in any other direction, and you'll walk right passed each other with no detection pop.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:37 AM by Gohanssj

I feel like for it to work, they need to take away the speed (booo hissssss that would SUUUUCK) or slightly increase the detection range to compensate for the speed/lag. This also will mean you have to choose a good spot or stay on the move as if you're not moving you're slightly easier to find (server sync etc).

But either way the current system has issues, not major issues, but definitely ones that negatively impact the stealth game

Fri 17 Aug 2018 6:32 AM by Qri

why not just use the new MoS with speed and detection range?
i think thats the most balanced to play for stealthers in general.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:21 AM by heardstheword

Qri wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 6:32 AM
why not just use the new MoS with speed and detection range?
i think thats the most balanced to play for stealthers in general.

Unless they counteract each other, it would be a little silly.

Everyone rocks between 30-40 base stealth (typically), which equates to MoS 5,6, and 7 (30-34, 35-39, 40-44). The range for MoS7 would be massive. They would have to cancel each other out on distance or else the opposite effect would happen where we see each other from miles away.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:55 AM by Qri

its just.. from an archer perspective, i want to invest RA points to get an advantage over assassins.
if its like it is now, it disables the archer line playstyle for me, because i will get hit first.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 10:45 AM by Gohanssj

Yeah well mos9 archers were bullshit and I'm glad that's not a thing :p should never be able to have time to fire an arrow while stealthed before someone can make up the distance between you. All I want is to see a stealther for more than 0.1 of a second before we never find each other again

Fri 17 Aug 2018 11:36 AM by Cirath

Full new RA master of stealth is not the asnswer for two reasons.
1. MOS does not affect assasin vs assasin detection, hence will do nothing here.
2. As mentioned, Archers being able to detect assasins at greater distances than assasins can detect archers is a poor idea from a balance perspective. Archers have powerfull ranged attacks, they should not have the best stealth and stealth detection as well.

IMO best solution may be a small bump in stealth detection for classes with stealth across the board. start with 50 units, see how it goes. no more than 100 units.

I still think minstrel stealth is too strong. Maybe detection by assasins at 175, 300, 350 for assasins, archers, minstrels.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:31 PM by heardstheword

Qri wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 9:55 AM
its just.. from an archer perspective, i want to invest RA points to get an advantage over assassins.
if its like it is now, it disables the archer line playstyle for me, because i will get hit first.

Assassins are a counter to archers though. Archers already have superior range damage, as expected.

Archers with MoS negates any benefit that assassins have over Archers. As you can just walk around us and avoid melee combat entirely.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 12:59 PM by

gruenesschaf

I'll add some options in the next update where it could be tuned while the server is running.

A slight increase to start with seems reasonable, something like a scaling +50 or +75 detection radius at 50 comb stealth spec. Maybe even not making detect hidden cancel each other out (ie assassins could then see each other at 250(or 300 with the flat +50)).

Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:02 PM by Anasth

I tottaly aggree. When archers had a better stealth detection it was a joke. Assasins couldnt even walk through a bridge without getting an arrow in the head thus rendering them useless... unless the policy is to avoid stealth wars and stealthers have to only fight visies then imo they should increase detection for assasins. As for archers...assasins cant afford being on the battlements shooting at a distance thus they need better stealth/stealth detection imo. And about the arguement that archers need distance and so they have to spot assasins first, i think is a joke. Archers have ways to kite an assasin, poor assasins are just screwed if they get uncovered by a shot in the head.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:38 PM by Ceen

Well I have the impression the more you complain the more theschaf fixes in that direction.
Oh two people writing something lets change it.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:41 PM by heardstheword

Nice! I'm sure a bump or two will be all it takes. Something to give us enough time to actually target each other.

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:38 PM
Well I have the impression the more you complain the more theschaf fixes in that direction.
Oh two people writing something lets change it.

Dev's tend to listen to valid suggestions

Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:51 PM by

gruenesschaf

Ceen wrote: Well I have the impression the more you complain the more theschaf fixes in that direction.
Oh two people writing something lets change it.

Oh sorry, I forgot that the response to reasonable suggestions has to be: If you don't like it here then don't play here.

I hope you realize that if it's just a flat +50 detection radius the radius would still be smaller than the melee range when both are moving (224).

Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:05 PM by Ceen

gruenesschaf wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 1:51 PM
Ceen wrote: Well I have the impression the more you complain the more theschaf fixes in that direction.
Oh two people writing something lets change it.

Oh sorry, I forgot that the response to reasonable suggestions has to be: If you don't like it here then don't play here.

I hope you realize that if it's just a flat +50 detection radius the radius would still be smaller than the melee range when both are moving (224).

Well I like to play here but imo some changes are too far of the road based on like two discord forum whines, not necessariely this increase. I gonna play grp chars most likely anyways.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:10 PM by heardstheword

Ceen wrote: ↑
Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:05 PM
Well I like to play here but imo some changes are too far of the road based on like two discord forum whines, not necessariely this increase. I gonna play grp chars most likely anyways.

So you're against testing +50 detection radius in beta?

I don't know of a smaller change you can even make without it being completely negligible. This is potentially the best possible solution. The smallest impact with incremental increases.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:38 PM by relvinian

Today a blue minstrel was stealthed near cs.

I am full stealth, lvl 26 I think at time.

I was stealthing back for some arrows and saw him from quite a ways. I send him tell ask his stealth.

it was like 1+3 or something I think mine 26.

I saw him from about 600-700? It was quite a ways.

That's all I got about my stealth observations except same thing once before with grey kobold near cs.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:39 PM by

gruenesschaf

I don't think anyone really did any tests to stealth outside of level 50, please report any bugs you find there.

Fri 17 Aug 2018 2:44 PM by relvinian

Also testing solo xp.

1 day 2 hours to lvl 28 on scout. /played

Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:47 PM by Qri

how about asassins are a counter to every other class. thats how overpowered they are.

the only way for a archer to survive, if found by an assassin, is to spec in melee and hope to survive the PA. because bow is just useless, if i dont get range. speed buff doesnt work with dots and garotte spam.

Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:54 PM by Zansobar

Qri wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:47 PM
how about asassins are a counter to every other class. thats how overpowered they are.

the only way for a archer to survive, if found by an assassin, is to spec in melee and hope to survive the PA. because bow is just useless, if i dont get range. speed buff doesnt work with dots and garotte spam.

An archer even specced in melee won't be surviving solo against an assassin as the multitude of poisons that the assassin will apply to you during the fight will win the day, regardless.

Mon 20 Aug 2018 8:20 PM by Qri

its the same with every other class vs assassins. they need a nerf, please start with new ra mos! ;-)

also: assassins can spec mos5 too. if you dont want to be seen first by archers, use your ra points well.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 4:58 AM by Cirath

Qri wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:47 PM
how about asassins are a counter to every other class. thats how overpowered they are.

the only way for a archer to survive, if found by an assassin, is to spec in melee and hope to survive the PA. because bow is just useless, if i dont get range. speed buff doesnt work with dots and garotte spam.

/eyeroll

So let me get this straight. A melee character catches a ranged character in melee, and the ranged character died?

Never has it been easier for an archer to avoid detection by assassins than on this server. If you are regularly being found and killed by assassins, well, maybe you should consider a visible class. Berserker might be more your speed.

Tue 21 Aug 2018 5:30 AM by Kha

Cirath wrote: ↑
Tue 21 Aug 2018 4:58 AM
Qri wrote: ↑
Mon 20 Aug 2018 2:47 PM
how about asassins are a counter to every other class. thats how overpowered they are.

the only way for a archer to survive, if found by an assassin, is to spec in melee and hope to survive the PA. because bow is just useless, if i dont get range. speed buff doesnt work with dots and garotte spam.

/eyeroll

So let me get this straight. A melee character catches a ranged character in melee, and the ranged character died?

Never has it been easier for an archer to avoid detection by assassins than on this server. If you are regularly being found and killed by assassins, well, maybe you should consider a visible class. Berserker might be more your speed.

Tested in caledonia, and it feel kind of retarded ...
Level 34 scout with 33 stealth getting popped from atleast 300 range by level 30 NS ... They even pop out of stealth and draw daggers out to run at me from distance ...

I don't know anything about how it should be, so i won't argue ... But poor archery classes .. Will be hard at release

Tue 21 Aug 2018 2:09 PM by Rhyveth

What is the logic behind assassins having higher detection? As long as both classes have comp stealth the point of detection is already pretty much in melee range. Having equal detection would at most give the archer one bow shot which might give a melee archer a shot at winning the fight but a sniper will be quickly killed.

If the answer is , as I expect, simply because thats the way it has always been, then I suggest making stealth detection equal would give those who wish to spec melee archers more of a fighting chance against assassins. (Personally I play sniper specs because when I play an archer I want to be shooting my bow not stabbing people, so any change in stealth isn't going to affect me by much I will have to avoid assassins either way. However for those that do enjoy melee as an archer I don't see why detection should be different. At such short ranges the assassin will have the advantage even if they are seen first.)

Tue 21 Aug 2018 9:16 PM by Cirath

The logic behind the detection difference is that one class is a master of stealth and melee damage dealer (autotrains stealth, has special abilities in the stealth line, e.g. safe fall, climb walls, distraction, detect hidden, and has melee attacks that must be performed from stealth), while the other class is a RANGED damage dealer that can also stealth as a secondary ability.

Cale right now is a terrible place to test the real impacts of detection differences as the sheer density of stealthers per square ft is so ridiculously high right now you are pretty much guaranteed to run into one. In the real frontiers, with an order of magnitude more room to roam and fewer enemy assassins the likelihood of being found as an archer is miniscule. Unless you are prone to sitting in predictable locations like on AMG or the canyon walls at DL or D.C..