Equalize hardcore and casual gamers a bit

In order to make open RvR viable and attractive for unfinished and/or weak characters, euqalize the strength of casuals and hardcore gamers to some extent.

For a start, here are 2 suggestions.

Massively reduce RPs for killing someone with lower RR

In order to slow down RR progress of hardcore gamers and to somewhat equalize overall server progress, reduce the amount of RPs earned from characters below your RR significantly. For example, solo killing an RR1-4 as RR5 only grants 200 Rp instead of 2000. You get the full RPs only for killing equal or higher RR.

RvR /challenge mode: Voluntary Handicap Debuffs for rewards
Upon reaching RR5, enable voluntary debuffs which reduce your damage/heals/cast speed but at the same time grant you more and better RvR rewards. Thus, this would be a bit like /challenge mode in PvE. The effect would be that hardcore gamers get an incentive to accept becoming weaker, thus increasing the win chance of weaker groups. That in turn renders the gaming experience less frustrating for weak characters and more challenging for hardcore gamers.

The kinds of extra rewards are debateable. It should be something that high end players desire, but does not make them even stronger.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:02 PM by Laadna

I like your first proposal, although your figures may be a bit extreme. I'd say that if your target has no more than 2 realm ranks lower than yours, then you shouldn't have that kind of penalty. As the difference is mostly on lower realm ranks (way bigger difference between RR 4 vs 2 than RR 7 vs 5 for example), the "no penalty difference window" should be bigger as your RR gets higher as well. And yes, it is a sensitive topic : once you get your first active RAs (and you abuse respec realm to reset their timers, which may be fixed after release), which is by RR 3, you can run over most lower ranks groups. And you can then get higher ranks really really quickly.

The second I find complicated and weird (no hard feelings). It is up to higher rank characters to activate that option, so you cannot really count on it to balance RvR activity. In the end, they will only activate it if they have good chance to win nevertheless. Resulting in even bigger RPs win... It will be exactly like challenge mode : for one group that activate it and wipe during the next pull, you will find a hundred who use it to their benefit only.

May I add a third one ? Remove or strongly weaken buff potions. They are used 100% of the time by hardcore gamers, while more casuals gamers won't feel like farming for those. That will not change one thing among hardcore gamers, save that they got use to it by now. Except that they may not be able to 3v1 not templated/pots characters.

I have the feeling that they may be one reason why casual gamers will avoid solo/smallman RvR in the end.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 11:53 PM by Zansobar

Laadna wrote: ↑
Wed 22 Aug 2018 12:02 PM
I like your first proposal, although your figures may be a bit extreme. I'd say that if your target has no more than 2 realm ranks lower than yours, then you shouldn't have that kind of penalty. As the difference is mostly on lower realm ranks (way bigger difference between RR 4 vs 2 than RR 7 vs 5 for example), the "no penalty difference window" should be bigger as your RR gets higher as well. And yes, it is a sensitive topic : once you get your first active RAs (and you abuse respec realm to reset their timers, which may be fixed after release), which is by RR 3, you can run over most lower ranks groups. And you can then get higher ranks really really quickly.

The second I find complicated and weird (no hard feelings). It is up to higher rank characters to activate that option, so you cannot really count on it to balance RvR activity. In the end, they will only activate it if they have good chance to win nevertheless. Resulting in even bigger RPs win... It will be exactly like challenge mode : for one group that activate it and wipe during the next pull, you will find a hundred who use it to their benefit only.

May I add a third one ? Remove or strongly weaken buff potions. They are used 100% of the time by hardcore gamers, while more casuals gamers won't feel like farming for those. That will not change one thing among hardcore gamers, save that they got use to it by now. Except that they may not be able to 3v1 not templated/pots characters. I have the feeling that they may be one reason why casual gamers will avoid solo/smallman RvR in the end.

I don't agree about the potions bit. I'm not actually sure which potions you are talking about because stat potions are extremely weak and so cheap anyone can get them. Same for endurance and mana regen potions up to level 3. Hardcore gamers will not be using potions (unless you are talking endurance potions, but then again anyone can use those as they are cheap cheap cheap), they will be roaming in optimal 8 mans fully buffed and if they run into any small mans the small mans have zero chance due to both numbers and a woeful gap in stat buffs (+65 dex, str, con vs +155). If anything, increasing stat potions to be much closer to full buffs would actually decrease the gap between hardcore gamers and the casuals. It is my opinion that the stat gap between 8 man groups and soloers is why there was not a healthy solo/small man scene on Uthgard (another non-buffbot custom server).

Wed 22 Aug 2018 11:58 PM by Frigzy

I think the potion/charge debate is one to be had for sure, but it deserves a thread on its own.

About the proposed mechanics though, I would have to agree for the most part with Laadna.

However, I do think the geste of the idea has potential. Perhaps the amount of RPs a player gives can be based upon mutliple factors. If I'm not mistaken, the dev's have already made work of this to some extent?

Can't remember the exact concept, but I tink adding in factors suchs as K/D ratio, RR, level difference etc to increase the RPs gained from hard to kill players would actually be interesting.

I'm not sure wether we should work in the other direction though, decreasing RPs gained for lower RR kills...

Thu 23 Aug 2018 11:18 AM by Whitecrow

I would have liked to see more realm points for a group for haveing variety different classes like the 5% xp bonus at moment.

So random pugs get more realm points in zerg .

But you got point hardcore jobless people on benfits working 24/7 to get high realm ranks to kill casuals is not good part game.

It takes 0 skill just more free time.

While them casuals who benfit society working to improve help Civilisation there family friends supporting community's and pay tax to people on benfits.

Come back play 2 3 hours to chilax get stomped on by people with all realm abilities going.

It's a aspect game which is really bad . It's more about time yout put in and play then any skill.

Would be nice if a server could fix the main issue of game and make it more skills based not time based.
Hardcore players with loads free time don't benfit the community society or the server they just destroy it.

Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:02 PM by Tienef

schreon wrote: Massively reduce RPs for killing someone with lower RR

In order to slow down RR progress of hardcore gamers and to somewhat equalize overall server progress, reduce the amount of RPs earned from characters below your RR significantly. For example, solo killing an RR1-4 as RR5 only grants 200 Rp instead of 2000. You get the full RPs only for killing equal or higher RR.

Needing 10 kills as soon as you reach 5L when you needed only 1 before for the same rps amount seems a bit too harsh

I would suggest dividing killed player's rr by killer player's rr : e.g. a 5L killing a 3L gets (3/5)*2000 = 1200 rps
(see proposal 3 from this topic https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1339)

Thu 23 Aug 2018 12:30 PM by Fk_

You do realise that the rp curve is already doing that?

A rr7 wanting rank 8 needs to get as much rps than from rr1 to rr6... By that time, many people can level to rr5 and step up their game instead of wanting to dumb things down.

Thu 23 Aug 2018 3:37 PM by skeetz

People do realize this is an MMO right? I get it its an old one but is still and MMO, and with an MMO you get out what you put in. So to punish hardcore people that devote a lot more time to the game is silly, if you're casual that's great, but you cant really expect to stay on par with someone that can play 3,4 or 5x more then you can do you? All this complaining about balancing RRs just means you want what they have with a lot less time involved....and sorry that's not how MMOs work...

Thu 23 Aug 2018 4:15 PM by schreon

You have to see the bigger pictute here. This is about 2 things:

1. Equalize overall progress, so the median player has optimal RR/time ratio. This slows down hardcore players a bit.

2. Encourage high RR players to seek out other high RR players and fight with them. This reduces the reward of farming low RRs.

Also, I believe hardcore players are not as eager to get high RR quickly as you might think. I believe they just enjoy the game so much they want to do RvR all the time. A side effect is that those players gain RPs much faster than anyone else.

Also, the argument with exponential RP curve is invalid. This is because that curve applies to everyone. You still need the same amount of RPs to gain the same high RR. Thus, players reaching high RRs first will gain more RPs even faster because they have RA advantage against most other players.

I claim most hardcore players don't care about these advantages so much. In most cases they are the better players anyway, so they would win in an equal-RR fight anyway. It would be a greater challenge though, which might even increase their own enjoyability of the game, too. In bullshit-bingo-terms that is a win-win-scenario.

Also, this would encourage hardcore players who actually are interested in RPs to rather create more characters who are all near the median RR rather than putting all their time in 1 character.

Thank you for the positive discussion so far.

Thu 23 Aug 2018 9:35 PM by megatron

I'm a casual... I fully expect and someone who spends a fuckton of time playing the game to have a pretty substantial edge over me in a solo fight. As a casual, I depend on that edge in my group mates. Also, it's a nice excuse when I get owned :p .

Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:04 AM by cptstoni

this balancing of HC-gamers versus casuals is utter BS. daoc is one of the games that lets you define yourself how much effort time and learning you want to put in. and it rewards you as fair as it gets.
if you put in alot of time and are willing to learn you will get good at the game and be able to compete with the "best", while when you invest 10 hours a month you will get casual groups and wont be able to compete with the "best" wich is exactly how real life works aswell. you dont go out and play football/basketball once a month and expect to compete with messi/lebron.

i dont want to encourage it, but if you lost to a seemingly better enemy you could just find more friends?

Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:30 AM by schreon

I refuse to accept that this discussion is "utter BS".

From an analytic point of view hardcore players getting stronger faster than anybody else, causing an exponentially growing gap between hardcore gamers and non-hardcore gamers is evident. And it is very plausible that this is counterproductive for the overall enjoyability in a game with competitive elements.

Also, this is not real life. It is a spare time activity supposed to entertain people.

Please give me a proper argument how and why an exponentially growing strength gap is increasing anyone's fun. With proper argument I mean something different than "because it has always been like this duh".

I am not at all saying that hardcore players should be punished or anything. All i am asking for is to slow down their progress so the gap does not grow exponentially and the overall end game progress gets a bit slower so the server will live a bit longer than 1-2 years.

If you believe I am totally wrong then explain to me why each and every freeshard so far has seen a high population in the beginning and a massive population decline later? From my perspective the problems discussed in this thread play a major role in that. So again, tell my how all this is "utter BS".

Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:34 AM by Whitecrow

cptstoni wrote: this balancing of HC-gamers versus casuals is utter BS. daoc is one of the games that lets you define yourself how much effort time and learning you want to put in. and it rewards you as fair as it gets.
if you put in alot of time and are willing to learn you will get good at the game and be able to compete with the "best", while when you invest 10 hours a month you will get casual groups and wont be able to compete with the "best" wich is exactly how real life works aswell. you dont go out and play football/basketball once a month and expect to compete with messi/lebron.

i dont want to encourage it, but if you lost to a seemingly better enemy you could just find more friends?

that's just rubbish lot people 35 + with kids family have more experience then the new jobless bums who can invest more time in games.

Your not hardcore your not even good you just got more free time no family kids maybe on benfits

I starterd playing DAOC in 2001 like lot people

A game based on putting more time in and not skill it outdated

Zinezdine Zidane was one best ever footballers loved the game put lots time in was hardcore but still wants take part in the game football.

But that game is based on skill and I'm sure he could beat you today 1v1 even with puting 0 hours in this month.
As he does not need pull purge and Determination and instant heal out his bag just a ball and boots

.....

Maybe when first so called hardcore I. E lots free time people hit rr5 there should be a battlegrounds open for players under rr4 for casuals to get basic tools.

Or pve rvr events to collect 10 platinum feather which you can only purchase purge with . Or certain realm abilities. That also stops you gaining realm points spend once you got the ability else were.

Or rvr quest.

Would be nice see updated version of game for modern world to make it more skilled based not time based.
Even football has been updated changed many times over years from rules to new modern technology to equipment but they base game on skill as well as basic need train put some time in .

But you don"t see footballers putting the extra time in to move the goal posts so other team has a disadvantage from start.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:06 AM by Fk_

You should play Go. This sport has a handicap for lower players versus better ranked players.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 1:54 PM by Tienef

I think people are mixing up two things in this topic : player skills and character abilities

One stated you should not expect to beat Lebron when playing basketball once a month. No one will deny it because the skill difference would be obvious.

But unlike daoc, Lebron doesn't gain any special ability for every match he won. If daoc logic was applied to basketball, Lebron could for example have the ability to reduce a 3 points you scored against him (if you could ever land one) to 1 point every 15 minutes.
You could easily accept being defeated by a higher skilled one, but it's more difficult to accept when this one also has abilities you are very far from getting because you don't dedicate enough time in the game.

Giving a reward to a player that is not static but that takes into account how hard it was to succeed is the base of any well balanced game. Therefore a 5L killing a 10L shouldn't be rewarded the same as if he killed a 1L...

Talking about long term, how do you feel about bringing a friend to the server if when he arrives most players are 8L+. Even if he plays battlegrounds to the max and achieve 3L, he will have to compete with players having 50 realm ability points more. Now if you give him a bonus to rp gains if he succeed, that can counterbalance it and be a worthy challenge. On the other hand, higher rr would be less prone to farming low rr if the rp gain is reduced on them.

Don't forget guys, a server's health is strictly related to how many casuals it can attract, not on its hc players.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 9:21 PM by defiasbandit

Hey I enjoyed your post about closing the gap between hardcore and casual players. The success of the server is contingent upon creating a welcoming and rewarding environment for players not running 8man guild groups. This server has no chance if RvR is dictated by those types.

This was a huge issue on other shards and on Live back during SI 02-03. Casual players quit PvP games for these reasons: they are unable to get any kills early on, are excluded from groups, forced into long waits to find action, and subjected to toxic elitist players. Phoenix can not be defined by that, especially if the server is to survive beyond a few months.

I don't agree with having /challenge mode in rvr like you suggested. A few posters addressed some of the problems with it. However, you are very much right that level 50 RvR needs to embrace new or less experienced players.

The majority of PvP players in DAOC have never had much interest or understanding of 8manning. There is a reason no popular PvP games today even have 8 player teams, especially considering that the vast majority of moba or fps players play either solo or in small groups when they queue up. Full group premading is very uncommon in such games, even when the group sizes are smaller than 8.

Mythic blundered by making group sizes 8man in RvR. While it did offer more synergy between the classes in PvP, it subsequently alienated much of the playerbase that wanted to PvP. Getting 8 players together for a pug 8man was overly time consuming, and groups would constantly disband after a single wipe. Fighting an 8man as a small man is also much more more difficult than fighting lets say a 5man. 8 player groups take much more coordination and team reliance, which was something only really achievable by the handful of premades that ran. This is not to say that large or multi groups do not have a place in RvR. They do.

1.65 DAOC was a flawed game, and it was not just the 1 to 50 leveling. Finding solutions to the shortcomings of level 50 RvR is paramount for keeping the population stable. This isn't about just making the PvP experience more inviting for casuals, but for players who choose to RvR in smaller group sizes. Battlegrounds should never be allowed near or at level 50. This is DAOC afterall.

Many players here dinged 50 back in 2002, grabbed a group of 0RR untemplated realmmates, and proceeded to be obliterated by an RR10 8man once they ran out into the Frontiers. Well you all are still here, while your groupmates from that slaughterfest quit back in 02.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:05 PM by Ashman

if you can only play 2 hours a week try to farm some zergs in that time and youre gucci.

nice ywain patchnotes tho

Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:19 PM by schreon

I enjoy all types of RvR: Solo, PUGs, Zergs as well as guild-premade 8v8 fights. I totally agree with your observation though that optimized 8man groups which are run by hardcore players are a problem for the non-optimized groups, especially PUGs.

But as I doubt there will be a way to totally prevent hardcore 8men from stomping everything, I believe there can be measures taken to massively discourage them to farm/gank the weak.

The best scenario would be where 8men fight other 8men and PuGs meet other PuGs, Solod meet other Solos and Zergs meet Zergs of similar size. In such an ideal scenario everyone would probably enjoy the maximum possible fun per hour.

However, being an ideal scenario, it is highly unlikely to consistently happen in an open world PvP environment as we have in DAoC.

However, taking measures like reducing RPs for killing smaller Ranks ( even for killing significantly smaller groups? ) and encouraging groups of certain sizes to go to different places will certainly help to improve the situation.

IMHO all playstyles should have their place, also the problematic hardcore premade 8man groups. They will always be there, so rather than trying to get rid of them, equalize strengths to some extent but also encourage them to do their stuff aside of "casual" RvR.

What is the problem if the premade 8men who would stomp everyone else are fighting other 8men in a zone not commonly visited by others?

If there was a zone dedicated for 8men, along with do-not-add rules etc, there would probably be 3-4 8man groups missing in the rest of RvR each evening.

However, the abscence of those 8men probably would lure out all those PUGs and half-baked groups. Would those casuals coming out of their holes even outnumber the loss in numbers caused by the elite 8men who do their business in a separate zone? What do you guys think?

Fri 24 Aug 2018 10:47 PM by cptstoni

its is BS because you want to punish the players who have the passion to invest more time then you. selfish terrible attitude.

yes daoc rewards you with RA's thats how you positively push people to do rvr, after all killing a highrr gives you more rps then killing a lowrr. but if you think the good groups are dependent on RA dump, then eighter they are bad or you and your group are a bigger challenge to them then you assume. there is literally no reason to use sos/melodies/bof/baod against a casual grp if you are a descent group.

to whitecrow. i am around that age and my grp has lots of parents(who would have expected that in a 17yrs old game) no i would not exclude a newcomer to become good.

yes zinedine would ouskill me in football, while i would outskill him in daoc even if i didnt play for years, and no i woult not need basic spells like instants or purge o.o. but i guess you just didnt want to get the point, and if this was some really silly ad hominem attack go google the meaning of it.

no there should not be a battleground in a already dieing game on a freeshard, thats just wishfull thinking if you expect that to "save" the population if shes decreasing.

you are playing this "game based on putting more time in and not skill" in a beta on a freeshard. hippocrite much? even tho i dont agree at all, if you only put in time you will be free rps even with rr11.

this server yet has to have enough Hc groups to even mention them, its like you guys are afraid of ghosts or just envy those with more rps, not me btw i would just reroll a toon to get more rps if there is a low rps bonus ontop of the already existing one, no RA's needed against casuals.

oh and im not a newage player im 35 and addicted since 2001, i just like to win instead of whine.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:04 PM by schreon

Refined, summarized suggestions:

Adjusted RP Rewards in Standard RvR
Kill a player with higher RR: get a few bonus RP
... with same RR: 100% Base RP
... with 1 RR less: 50% Base RP
... with 2 RR less: 25% Base Rp
... with 3 or more RRs less: no RPs at all

If you ranked up so fast you dont find any enemies giving RPs anymore you should either create a twink or reconsider your recent life choices.

Of course still divide by number of group members. Additionally, further reduce gained RPs if there are much fewer enemies than the own group size in a 3000+ radius. This means killing solos and duos who are not near more enemies simply is not worth it. The reasoning is that killing a solo/duo as an 8man simply is not a challenge and thus it is not worth any PvP-related reward! Simply dividing by the number of group members is not enough in those cases IMHO.

Extra 8man Zone
An extra 8man zone ( some BG map maybe ) which can only be entered with a full group. Do-not-add rules apply here. In here, RPs are constantly adjusted to 50%. So you gain less here on average, but an RR10 will still gain RPs from an RR2 if the latter risks to go there. Maybe even allow fights between groups of the same realm.

This might hurt and might totally contradict the vision of this server at first sight. But if you think about it, giving 8men an own zone and allowing them to fight each other, they are happy and have something to do all time ( even if only 2 hib groups are running ) and the rest of the server can flourish. This should especially be true if the othere measures are implemented at the same time.

Add group-size specific incentives
Like described in another post, add very high hitpoint mobs which take many minutes to kill. They grant an okayish amount of realm points upon kill. Set up multiple spawn locations nearby with an acceptable respawn timer, so it is worth it to roam and wait for either enemy players to show up or kill the next mob. The mobs should be tied to certain group size ranges: solo, 2-3, 4-6, 7-8. Put the spawn areas for different group size ranges far away from each other.

Add keep zerg incentives
Like described in the other posts, add incentives to form zergs for keeptakes and keepdefenses, also tie this to massive XP benefits so people come with their 40+ characters.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:32 PM by schreon

cptstoni, this is not about grudging. Also it is not at all focussed on this beta phase. It is a discussion based on experiences everbody made over the course of 17 years of DAoC.

Just picture a situation where you just turned level 48 with your earth wizard. You wear a bunch of RoGs. You did not play DAoC for 2 years before but now you are eager to jump into RvR right away. You stand in forest sauvage and you actually are picked up by a friendly PUG. Some of your team mates are even temped and RR2. However you only have 1 cleric. But you got a friar who says he'll try to help healing.

You port to Emain Macha. Everyone is buffed, but there was no conc left for your str/con. You leave ATK, pass AMG. There, an enemy Hib group! Your sorcerer manages to luckily box mez them. Their druid uses group purge. You get rooted by the other druid. Seconds later, an RR7 Blademaster slams you. A few swings later you are dead. 20 more seconds the rest of your group is also dead. You see the ranks of the enemies: all RR6-8

You are lucky that the morale of your group is unshaken. You try it once more. You make it to MMG but you are killed again by the same group. Now you notice they all have uniform colors.
You try it a third time, but you are again killed flawless. Your PUG dissolves. Some of your mates log off or log over to their stealthers.

You turn back to PvE again and care about finishing your temp first. You also doubt your choice becoming an earth wizard. You don't enter RvR again for a few days im order to optimize your character.

What you didnt know is that the killspam between your deaths was caused by the same Hib group. They where farming a Midgard PUG including a level 47 Thane who also just wore ROG items.

Two questions.

1. Do you think the Hib group deserved the realm points for killing you and the Mid PUG repeatedly?

2. If you had fought the Mid PUG with that 47 Thane a few times, with many dead on both sides, close endings, 2 times your group won, 3 times the others. Would your PUG have dissolved?

THIS is what this whole discussion is about.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:40 PM by Magesty

Schreon. Bruh.

I appreciate the amount of effort that goes into your posts but some of these ideas are a little much. 50% less RP for an RR3 killing and RR2? A zone for 8mans to go circle jerk in that isn’t Emain?

Energy is better spent working within the context of the system we have to try to find ways to improve the game. When you have a nice car you don’t try to add wings to it, ya know? Maybe just some tires that perform better when it is icy out there.

Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:44 PM by Quik

Very simple observation from playing several freeshards as well as DAoC in its prime...

Keep in mind I do NOT know an easy or difficult fix for this, I just know ONE of the things that kills a server over a period of 6 months to a year. Uth1 last several years with good success but it had a similar issue.

Hardcore players need to be able to min/max everything as that is what is fun for them. They want to be far and away the best on the server. There is nothing wrong with this. just a simple fact and I have a hard time punishing them for this.

On the flip side...we see what happens to servers when hardcore players achieve their goals, it quite simply drives away the casual player who wants to have fun and compete but doesn't have the time to put the same effort in or the knowledge. Casual gamers will make up IMHO about 60%-75% of a freeshards player base. I say this simply from seeing a server like Uth2 that went from 3k+ drop to 150. Not all the people that left were casual, but a HUGE chunk if not most were. Casuals will play for a few months but if they can't compete or just keep getting steamrolled every time they go out into the FZ, they will log. They have a lot of other things they can do, while hardcore will simply put almost every waking minute into this game.

Am I saying that we need to nerf hardcore players? Of course not.

Am I saying we need to give casuals a boost? Not outright, but if there was something we could do to keep them we should consider it.

Obviously hardcore players put a lot of effort into the game and want to be better then most people, and they should as it is only fair.

I keep hearing hardcore players saying that RR doesn't matter, since they would roll the casuals anyway. This is true, but in this scenario at least the casuals might get in a few good licks. The thing is, if RR won't matter why do hardcore NEED RR's then? They will win regardless. Obviously they want to compete against other hardcore.

As stated I don't have an answer, but if the GM's can figure out a way to keep the casual gamer having fun, the server WILL succeed. Every freeshard as well as DAoC in its prime had a majority of its player base as casual, and the hardcore fed on them. DAoC in its prime succeeded because it was unique and people loved it since it was new.

DAoC is not new anymore. If this server doesn't figure out a way to keep its casual fan base it will do the same as Uth2 did which is have a big opening few months, then as the casual lags farther and farther behind they will start moving on to something else and the server will drop to just its hardcore player base which I am completely guessing but will say will be around 200-300 players and it will be in the same situation as Uth2.

Origins or a renewed Uth2 will then attract some casuals. Uth2 will get a decent jump and then die again as casuals again find out they are too far behind to compete and move on. Origins will possibly have a decent opening but not as big as Phoenix since Phoenix has stolen its thunder, but they will have to either decide to figure out a way to keep the casual and have a longer server life, or do what everyone else does and just let the hardcore roll them all the time and watch the server die...again.

I REALLY want Phoenix to succeed, but I personally see the issue already starting to happen, the hardcore are trying to play in FZ and a LOT of casuals are staying in Cale since they can compete there. I already see the hardcore pissed that players are staying in Cale instead of coming out to big boy rvr where they can farm them.

Hardcore players will always come out on top of the casual, but if we don't figure out a way to keep the casual entertained, they will stay in BG's for awhile until they don't have enough people to play against and then again, move on.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:00 AM by Zansobar

Quik wrote: ↑
Fri 24 Aug 2018 11:44 PM
Very simple observation from playing several freeshards as well as DAoC in its prime...

Keep in mind I do NOT know an easy or difficult fix for this, I just know ONE of the things that kills a server over a period of 6 months to a year. Uth1 last several years with good success but it had a similar issue.

Hardcore players need to be able to min/max everything as that is what is fun for them. They want to be far and away the best on the server. There is nothing wrong with this. just a simple fact and I have a hard time punishing them for this.

On the flip side...we see what happens to servers when hardcore players achieve their goals, it quite simply drives away the casual player who wants to have fun and compete but doesn't have the time to put the same effort in or the knowledge. Casual gamers will make up IMHO about 60%-75% of a freeshards player base. I say this simply from seeing a server like Uth2 that went from 3k+ drop to 150. Not all the people that left were casual, but a HUGE chunk if not most were. Casuals will play for a few months but if they can't compete or just keep getting steamrolled every time they go out into the FZ, they will log. They have a lot of other things they can do, while hardcore will simply put almost every waking minute into this game.

Am I saying that we need to nerf hardcore players? Of course not.

Am I saying we need to give casuals a boost? Not outright, but if there was something we could do to keep them we should consider it.

Obviously hardcore players put a lot of effort into the game and want to be better then most people, and they should as it is only fair.

I keep hearing hardcore players saying that RR doesn't matter, since they would roll the casuals anyway. This is true, but in this scenario at least the casuals might get in a few good licks. The thing is, if RR won't matter why do hardcore NEED RR's then? They will win regardless. Obviously they want to compete against other hardcore.

As stated I don't have an answer, but if the GM's can figure out a way to keep the casual gamer having fun, the server WILL succeed. Every freeshard as well as DAoC in its prime had a majority of its player base as casual, and the hardcore fed on them. DAoC in its prime succeeded because it was unique and people loved it since it was new.

DAoC is not new anymore. If this server doesn't figure out a way to keep its casual fan base it will do the same as Uth2 did which is have a big opening few months, then as the casual lags farther and farther behind they will start moving on to something else and the server will drop to just its hardcore player base which I am completely guessing but will say will be around 200-300 players and it will be in the same situation as Uth2.

Origins or a renewed Uth2 will then attract some casuals. Uth2 will get a decent jump and then die again as casuals again find out they are too far behind to compete and move on. Origins will possibly have a decent opening but not as big as Phoenix since Phoenix has stolen its thunder, but they will have to either decide to figure out a way to keep the casual and have a longer server life, or do what everyone else does and just let the hardcore roll them all the time and watch the server die...again.

I REALLY want Phoenix to succeed, but I personally see the issue already starting to happen, the hardcore are trying to play in FZ and a LOT of casuals are staying in Cale since they can compete there. I already see the hardcore pissed that players are staying in Cale instead of coming out to big boy rvr where they can farm them.

Hardcore players will always come out on top of the casual, but if we don't figure out a way to keep the casual entertained, they will stay in BG's for awhile until they don't have enough people to play against and then again, move on.

I totally agree with yours and schreon's posts. The thing that kills these servers is the gap between the elite 8 man ideal group players and the pugs and casuals. If there could be a system devised where the elite 8 mans only fought other elite 8 mans and the pugs fought pugs and casuals and small groups fought other pugs and small groups the server could have some longevity (unlike the other servers out there).

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:04 AM by relvinian

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I think it is ok to let hardcore people be hardcore. They will win, dominate, kick ass, etc.

Don't nerf them.

And don't make causals their equal. Rather try and make casuals about 60% or 50% their equal.

Minor buff bots, long term hasteners, rr limits for first few months, no keep takes, df open for all for awhile..

Be aware, that hardcore players can play in any environment but we need the casuals too.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:06 AM by Ashman

or you know.... play less 48 earth wizards in rvr....

you can equip your wow toons in all green gear because you like the color

just dont expect to be anything but useless to someone who wants to get something done

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:18 AM by Quik

Ashman wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:06 AM
or you know.... play less 48 earth wizards in rvr....

you can equip your wow toons in all green gear because you like the color

just dont expect to be anything but useless to someone who wants to get something done

A casual is going to play what they will have fun with, not what the realm or a guild really needs most at the time.

Telling them to play something they wont have fun with is basically telling them to leave....and if that happens then good bye server.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:19 AM by Ashman

then tell me why should someone be successful if he plays in the least efficient way possible?

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:20 AM by Quik

relvinian wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:04 AM
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I think it is ok to let hardcore people be hardcore. They will win, dominate, kick ass, etc.

Don't nerf them.

And don't make causals their equal. Rather try and make casuals about 60% or 50% their equal.

Minor buff bots, long term hasteners, rr limits for first few months, no keep takes, df open for all for awhile..

Be aware, that hardcore players can play in any environment but we need the casuals too.

This is not a bad idea, but long term they will need something also. Your ideas might keep them around for the time you state, but after it will need to be looked at again.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:23 AM by cptstoni

well schreon, thats a nice story. let me give you the flipside. the hibbgroup had to find 8 reliable players which have the time to play and are skilled enough to kill those rr2 grps with rog players, they probably invested 10-20x more time even tho they also got jobs and families. they also went through pve before that, and even if theire doubts arent the same, they have doubts too.

do i think the hibbs deserve the rps? yes. they were better. thats exactly what i say when i lose to a better group.
would my pug dissolve if we got rps? no. but that question isnt honest of you, since your real question is would you like to have a sterile 8v8 against and equally good/bad enemy. where i would reply no, not at all, the whole idea of sterile fights like for exmaple alteri is boring, excatly because you never know when the next add could happen.

do i think its good for the morale of the alb and midgrp? no.
do i think they are the ones deciding to run out again without getting more or better teammates? yes.
do i think the casuals should get special treatment? no.
do i think the elititst should get special treatment? no.

this discussion to you is all about that, to me its about special treatment, and i highly dislike special treatment, especially in one of the few non P2W games where that is still possible.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:24 AM by Quik

Ashman wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:19 AM
then tell me why should someone be successful if he plays in the least efficient way possible?

Ok...read my post. The casual will NEVER compete with the hardcare gamer...EVER when it comes to just straight fighting. They use zergs to try to compete or try to find an 8man with some hardcore players to help them a long.

You saying they need to play something that isn't fun is not a fix for the problem, it just facilitates the hardgore gaining more and more ground every day.

We have already established that the hardcore will be the elite on the server. They WILL win 90% of the fights or more unless there are mitigating circumstances.

The casual will play what they think is fun until they aren't having fun and then they will leave.

If your only participation in this discussion is "Don't let the door hit them on the way out" you are basically saying you don't want the casual here, and if there is no casual you are looking at a server with the population of Uth2 right now.

We need to figure out sacrifices to keep everyone playing and happy.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:25 AM by Quik

cptstoni wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:23 AM
well schreon, thats a nice story. let me give you the flipside. the hibbgroup had to find 8 reliable players which have the time to play and are skilled enough to kill those rr2 grps with rog players, they probably invested 10-20x more time even tho they also got jobs and families. they also went through pve before that, and even if theire doubts arent the same, they have doubts too.

do i think the hibbs deserve the rps? yes. they were better. thats exactly what i say when i lose to a better group.
would my pug dissolve if we got rps? no. but that question isnt honest of you, since your real question is would you like to have a sterile 8v8 against and equally good/bad enemy. where i would reply no, not at all, the whole idea of sterile fights like for exmaple alteri is boring, excatly because you never know when the next add could happen.

do i think its good for the morale of the alb and midgrp? no.
do i think they are the ones deciding to run out again without getting more or better teammates? yes.
do i think the casuals should get special treatment? no.
do i think the elititst should get special treatment? no.

this discussion to you is all about that, to me its about special treatment, and i highly dislike special treatment, especially in one of the few non P2W games where that is still possible.

I have an issue with special treatment also. if you have read any of my posts you would see I talk about wanting to balance as much as possible. No special treatment to any classes or realms.

The only problem will simply be without doing something to keep the casual involved and playing, they will leave. if the casuals leave the server will become nothing more then Uth2.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:28 AM by Doomsday

You don't need to equalize anything. Like many replies before, if person willing to spend time playing the game and getting good gear and learning his/her class well either in solo play or in group - then that player should be rewarded and not be nerfed.

However, if you want to have more casual friendly atmosphere in game and in rvr specifically - insta perma ban players that are abusing the system by using 3rd party tools or whatever known to men hacks that gives you an advantage in rvr.

The truth is, big percentage of those so called leet 8 men are abusing the system which is a sad truth. It is not their skill that kills the casuals but their attitude toward community and drive to be famous no matter the cost.

That tool FYI was already banned once and that ban should have been final. His ip should have been banned and no other chances should have been given to that dork. You think you saw Diplo spam or Studboy spam? Did they get banned yet? No? Let's just wait a bit...
Those players openly admitted using hacks on other servers - augmented stats and other unethical and stupid ways to cheat. They used it there, they will use it again.

There are only few true 8 men out there that have ethics and skills - those players should get rewarded and should be respected. The rest - banned and deleted. Server will be clean of cheaters and casual community will prosper. Casuals might not have time to be rr10 or skills to compete in some fights but they are the essential force that is required to keep the server alive.

nuff said...

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:30 AM by Zansobar

Ashman wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:19 AM
then tell me why should someone be successful if he plays in the least efficient way possible?

Your definition of success is probably different than a casual player's definition.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:33 AM by cptstoni

yo doomsday https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1761

next time look at the forums first

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:34 AM by Doomsday

your cpt, reread what i said. FIRST ban should have been IT. thanks for listening at least.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:39 AM by Ashman

-casuals should be aware that they sign up for a rvr game (aka a competitive mmo)
-casuals from back then actually learned something by now and are above normal casual level
-modern games have a elo system for that
-elo in daoc would be wow arena 2.0 (no one wants that)

you cannot force casuals to not have fun that is correct but also the problem.

without creating an abomination of a server (creating instances for every way of playing for example) the only solution would be to change the mind of casuals.

and that wont happen because as you said,they do whatever they like until they dont like it anymore.

what i find very strange tho is the why play in the first place?
they heard from a source here and there daoc is the best pvp experience ever.

until they realize people had a 17 year headstart and need to work for it.

as sad as it sounds i dont think casuals,without a will or desire to get better, will have a good time on any daoc freeshard (zerging gets boring for some/a lot)

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:40 AM by cptstoni

im all down for banning whomever uses tools or w/e other abuses and such. yet you going on a rant how this dude needed a ban in the first time, when the gms gave him a second chance and he blew it, seems more of a personal issue of yours then the ruleset.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:43 AM by Doomsday

No personal issue, i am not even 50 yet or rvring. My point was that he used hack and should be perma ban, just like anyone else. If player uses a hack then that player should not be on the server. You want to help casuals - clean up the trash, most casuals, besides dual logging, don't really use hacks to get rps.

You will be surprised how much cleaner the server would be w/out hackers. That's the best thing that can be done for casuals.

I don't have any personal vendetta against specific players, I have vendetta against cheaters. Still not clear?

another example is needed?

"Banned Chtichti
Banned for Illegial 3rd party program usage / macroing.

Banned for 3 days" - Chtichti - another tool, want more examples?

Sat 25 Aug 2018 12:49 AM by Dragonn

LOL what post is this?!?! I hope you are joking

Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:49 AM by schreon

Lets forget the term "casual" for a moment.

Let's assume there are only hardcore players.

The server started fresh.

Hardcore player A creates an earth wizard because he wants to try something, levels up to 48. He joins a PUG. There are only subotpimal PUGs at the moment so everyone is having a lot of fun just running with whoever gathers in forest sauvage. He sometimes fights a group with another hardcore player B playing a level 47 thane. They both get the most out of what there is to get out of their unfinished characters. For a few days everyone wins and loses, people just pour out of tje TKs and battle each other, lots of RR progress for everyone, no matter if actually 50 or how equip is, people are posting enthusiastically how great the experience is on this great server.

/who Emain gives over 100 hits for days.

One month passes. Hardcore player A created a Minstrel meanwhile which is now temped with the best procs and everything. Hardcore player B did the same but created a Berserker instead. They both run in their optimized 8man groups now. Both are around RR4 now.

Group A and group B roam Emain, sometimes they meet each other and have nice 8man fights. They steamroll over occasional PUGs and groups with less than 8 players.

Hardcore player C joins the server late because he was on holiday. Same for hardcore player D. Player C has the same idea as player A a month ago, trying something with an earth wizard. With 48 he feels the itch to just try it out. He struggles finding a PUG taking an unfinished 48 earth wizard, but after some time he is lucky. Same for player D who plays a 49 thane.

PUG C and PUG D never meet each other because they are destroyed by group A/B repeatedly. Since player C and D know the game and already expected something like this, they reroll "proper" classes and spend the next few days .... not in frontiers. They spent it in PvE optimizing their new Minstrel/Berserker. Meanwhile, the premade A and premade B dominate Emain. They mainly fight each other and just steamroll over occasional fools who dare to enter their domain untemped, with loser classes or subpar setups.

/who Emain results in 19.

Two premade 8men and 3 stealthers.

Is this how you want things to be?

In an alternate universe, there had been a mechanic in place which prevented higher RRs from getting RPs from lower RRs. Also, there was a zone where 8men could teleport. No zergs there, but other 8men with enough RR to give decent RPs.
People kept bringing their unfinished characters to Emain and the fun continued. /who Emain still 80+ with occasional sub-50 characters ...

Even in the abscence of casual players it makes sense to establish space for casual play.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:32 AM by Whitecrow

In End we all know what happens when you have group hardcore people with all realm abilitys going and best gear going.

They are left with a dead server.

Its happend over and over again.

I hope phonix devs can see this modernise the game and adapt.

Im hopefull after seeing the pve and rvr events put on that they can somehow keep server alive.

At moment casuals are better staying in battlegrounds with /xp /rp off were there get fair fight.

But that would also hurt final 50 RVR.

If phonix devs change server get 80% population the casuals to stay they have won.

Even if 10% hardcore players leave.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 2:41 AM by Zansobar

schreon wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:49 AM
Lets forget the term "casual" for a moment.

Let's assume there are only hardcore players.

The server started fresh.

Hardcore player A creates an earth wizard because he wants to try something, levels up to 48. He joins a PUG. There are only subotpimal PUGs at the moment so everyone is having a lot of fun just running with whoever gathers in forest sauvage. He sometimes fights a group with another hardcore player B playing a level 47 thane. They both get the most out of what there is to get out of their unfinished characters. For a few days everyone wins and loses, people just pour out of tje TKs and battle each other, lots of RR progress for everyone, no matter if actually 50 or how equip is, people are posting enthusiastically how great the experience is on this great server.

/who Emain gives over 100 hits for days.

One month passes. Hardcore player A created a Minstrel meanwhile which is now temped with the best procs and everything. Hardcore player B did the same but created a Berserker instead. They both run in their optimized 8man groups now. Both are around RR4 now.

Group A and group B roam Emain, sometimes they meet each other and have nice 8man fights. They steamroll over occasional PUGs and groups with less than 8 players.

Hardcore player C joins the server late because he was on holiday. Same for hardcore player D. Player C has the same idea as player A a month ago, trying something with an earth wizard. With 48 he feels the itch to just try it out. He struggles finding a PUG taking an unfinished 48 earth wizard, but after some time he is lucky. Same for player D who plays a 49 thane.

PUG C and PUG D never meet each other because they are destroyed by group A/B repeatedly. Since player C and D know the game and already expected something like this, they reroll "proper" classes and spend the next few days .... not in frontiers. They spent it in PvE optimizing their new Minstrel/Berserker. Meanwhile, the premade A and premade B dominate Emain. They mainly fight each other and just steamroll over occasional fools who dare to enter their domain untemped, with loser classes or subpar setups.

/who Emain results in 19.

Two premade 8men and 3 stealthers.

Is this how you want things to be?

In an alternate universe, there had been a mechanic in place which prevented higher RRs from getting RPs from lower RRs. Also, there was a zone where 8men could teleport. No zergs there, but other 8men with enough RR to give decent RPs.
People kept bringing their unfinished characters to Emain and the fun continued. /who Emain still 80+ with occasional sub-50 characters ...

Even in the abscence of casual players it makes sense to establish space for casual play.

I wonder if the solution is as simple as reduce the maximum group size to something like 3 to 5 players...(I know the devs have the ability to limit group size). If you can't get the entire gamut of critical class abilities (mez, buffs, interupts, etc) all in the same group you have to make choices and this creates numerous varied group makeups. I don't know... a lot of thought would have to go into it to ensure a small group couldn't cover all the bases a big group can so it would results in varied group make-ups and a role for more classes.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:25 AM by ShutenGlooten

Lol

Sat 25 Aug 2018 3:50 AM by relvinian

Do you love the rabbits when you feed them before killing and eating them?

Do you spare the fish full of eggs because of love for the fish?

Nope, you are the hunter and you want your prey to be plentiful so you can hunt.

Nothing about special treatment. You are fattening your kill if you are hardcore.

Hop over to valdemort with their 100 population and see all the elite.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 5:41 AM by defiasbandit

I complained to Mythic back in 02/03 endlessly about the RvR group size of 8 in Dark Age of Camelot and how it was detrimental to the success of the game.

The majority of PvP players in DAOC have never had much interest or understanding of 8manning. There is a reason no popular PvP games today even have 8 player teams, especially considering that the vast majority of moba or fps players play either solo or in small groups when they queue up. Full group premading is very uncommon in such games, even when the group sizes are smaller than 8.

Mythic made a mistake by making group sizes 8man in RvR. While it did offer more synergy between the classes in PvP, it subsequently alienated much of the playerbase that wanted to PvP. Getting 8 players together for a pug 8man was overly time consuming, and groups would constantly disband after a single wipe. Fighting an 8man as a small man is also much more more difficult than fighting lets say a 5man. 8 player groups take a lot of coordination and team reliance, which was something only really achievable by the handful of premades that existed. This is not to say that large or multi groups do not have a place in RvR. They do.

I know reducing the group size from 8 is controversial, but I always believed it was the most straightforward fix. DAOC Is a large scale Realm v Realm v Realm game, but this single design flaw caused a lot of recurring trouble 15 years ago that still plague the game today.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 8:30 AM by schreon

Reducing the group size actually sounds like a pretty decent step, although it seems to be a very disruptive one.

A smaller group size forces people to make compromises, there is always something that is missing. Thinking about it, it actually might have the potential to fix a majority of the fundamental problems at once.

If the default group size is reduced to something like 5, an extra 8man zone would make even more sense. There, all the classic fights according to nostalgia and esports-esque ambitions could still take place.

I think this should defenitely be tested in the scope of beta, still during the i40 cap.

Maybe you should start a new topic for this idea alone, in order to catch the devs' attention?

Sat 25 Aug 2018 8:34 AM by Vkejai

schreon wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:49 AM
Lets forget the term "casual" for a moment.

Let's assume there are only hardcore players.

The server started fresh.

Hardcore player A creates an earth wizard because he wants to try something, levels up to 48. He joins a PUG. There are only subotpimal PUGs at the moment so everyone is having a lot of fun just running with whoever gathers in forest sauvage. He sometimes fights a group with another hardcore player B playing a level 47 thane. They both get the most out of what there is to get out of their unfinished characters. For a few days everyone wins and loses, people just pour out of tje TKs and battle each other, lots of RR progress for everyone, no matter if actually 50 or how equip is, people are posting enthusiastically how great the experience is on this great server.

/who Emain gives over 100 hits for days.

One month passes. Hardcore player A created a Minstrel meanwhile which is now temped with the best procs and everything. Hardcore player B did the same but created a Berserker instead. They both run in their optimized 8man groups now. Both are around RR4 now.

Group A and group B roam Emain, sometimes they meet each other and have nice 8man fights. They steamroll over occasional PUGs and groups with less than 8 players.

Hardcore player C joins the server late because he was on holiday. Same for hardcore player D. Player C has the same idea as player A a month ago, trying something with an earth wizard. With 48 he feels the itch to just try it out. He struggles finding a PUG taking an unfinished 48 earth wizard, but after some time he is lucky. Same for player D who plays a 49 thane.

PUG C and PUG D never meet each other because they are destroyed by group A/B repeatedly. Since player C and D know the game and already expected something like this, they reroll "proper" classes and spend the next few days .... not in frontiers. They spent it in PvE optimizing their new Minstrel/Berserker. Meanwhile, the premade A and premade B dominate Emain. They mainly fight each other and just steamroll over occasional fools who dare to enter their domain untemped, with loser classes or subpar setups.

/who Emain results in 19.

Two premade 8men and 3 stealthers.

Is this how you want things to be?

In an alternate universe, there had been a mechanic in place which prevented higher RRs from getting RPs from lower RRs. Also, there was a zone where 8men could teleport. No zergs there, but other 8men with enough RR to give decent RPs.
People kept bringing their unfinished characters to Emain and the fun continued. /who Emain still 80+ with occasional sub-50 characters ...

Even in the abscence of casual players it makes sense to establish space for casual play.

I must say, that is bang on. History repeats itself time and time again, especially in this game it seems. Definitely agree with the high RR against lower RR realm point distribution. I don't think that will ever happen tho.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 9:16 AM by defiasbandit

schreon wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 8:30 AM
Reducing the group size actually sounds like a pretty decent step, although it seems to be a very disruptive one.

A smaller group size forces people to make compromises, there is always something that is missing. Thinking about it, it actually might have the potential to fix a majority of the fundamental problems at once.

If the default group size is reduced to something like 5, an extra 8man zone would make even more sense. There, all the classic fights according to nostalgia and esports-esque ambitions could still take place.

I think this should defenitely be tested in the scope of beta, still during the i40 cap.

Maybe you should start a new topic for this idea alone, in order to catch the devs' attention?

I was actually about to write a lengthy post on the forums about the dangers 8man groups present to this game when I came across this post you made. I figured I would just add to it, but I agree it might be best to start a new topic related to reducing the group size in RvR.

Obviously, it would not solve all the inherent issues with DAOC RvR in the frontiers, but I always felt it was the first step even back in 2003.

Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:53 PM by Ganaka

schreon wrote: ↑
Sat 25 Aug 2018 1:49 AM
Lets forget the term "casual" for a moment.

Let's assume there are only hardcore players.

The server started fresh.

Hardcore player A creates an earth wizard because he wants to try something, levels up to 48. He joins a PUG. There are only subotpimal PUGs at the moment so everyone is having a lot of fun just running with whoever gathers in forest sauvage. He sometimes fights a group with another hardcore player B playing a level 47 thane. They both get the most out of what there is to get out of their unfinished characters. For a few days everyone wins and loses, people just pour out of tje TKs and battle each other, lots of RR progress for everyone, no matter if actually 50 or how equip is, people are posting enthusiastically how great the experience is on this great server.

/who Emain gives over 100 hits for days.

One month passes. Hardcore player A created a Minstrel meanwhile which is now temped with the best procs and everything. Hardcore player B did the same but created a Berserker instead. They both run in their optimized 8man groups now. Both are around RR4 now.

Group A and group B roam Emain, sometimes they meet each other and have nice 8man fights. They steamroll over occasional PUGs and groups with less than 8 players.

Hardcore player C joins the server late because he was on holiday. Same for hardcore player D. Player C has the same idea as player A a month ago, trying something with an earth wizard. With 48 he feels the itch to just try it out. He struggles finding a PUG taking an unfinished 48 earth wizard, but after some time he is lucky. Same for player D who plays a 49 thane.

PUG C and PUG D never meet each other because they are destroyed by group A/B repeatedly. Since player C and D know the game and already expected something like this, they reroll "proper" classes and spend the next few days .... not in frontiers. They spent it in PvE optimizing their new Minstrel/Berserker. Meanwhile, the premade A and premade B dominate Emain. They mainly fight each other and just steamroll over occasional fools who dare to enter their domain untemped, with loser classes or subpar setups.

/who Emain results in 19.

Two premade 8men and 3 stealthers.

Is this how you want things to be?

In an alternate universe, there had been a mechanic in place which prevented higher RRs from getting RPs from lower RRs. Also, there was a zone where 8men could teleport. No zergs there, but other 8men with enough RR to give decent RPs.
People kept bringing their unfinished characters to Emain and the fun continued. /who Emain still 80+ with occasional sub-50 characters ...

Even in the abscence of casual players it makes sense to establish space for casual play.

^^ Great post!