Enabling Full RvR Oriented Character Progression

Hello everyone.

From what I've seen, most discussions about casual RvR evolve around the idea of solo and smallman players. However, casual RvR in its core is based predominantly on players who are not fully optimized to compete, yet still participate in RvR.

You could come up with a tier list of those who enter RvR zones as follows:
E - Players who venture out to do PvE in the Frontiers.
D - Solo players under 50 or without a template / specialized gear (pots, charges etc). (=sub-optimized players)
C - Solo level 50 RvR players.
B - Smallman level 50 RvR players.
A - Fullgroup level 50 RvR players.
A+ - 2+ Fullgroups and Zergs.
S - Fully organised and optimised dedicated, competitive guild groups (8 or more).

Every single tier in the RvR ecosystem feeds on the lowest 2 tiers, or players who feed off those tiers.

So in order to create a healthy, sustainable RvR ecosystem you need a consistent natural influx of players in the lower tiers.

As we know, players don't voluntarily opt to be in these tiers because they want to support the 'Phoenix Server RvR Ecosystem'. They simply venture out with a goal of character progression in mind which makes the it worth it to risk being eaten by sharks.

These players are facing the worst risk vs reward odds there are in RvR. In order to entice players to take those risks, the server has to have implemented measures which will award these choices properly.

At the same time, this offers an opportunity to think about a character progression trajectory which is based on a full RvR career (Thid from 20ish, all the way to 50 doing primarily RvR). I'm absolutely positive that should the server mechanics support this playstyle, plenty of people will opt for it.

Right now, you would be foolish not to hunt for anything but the killtask items, narrowing down the viable character progression playstyles...

I've already made a suggestion which focuses on the lowest (E) tier here: https://playphoenix.online/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1237
Additionally, making sure each realm has a potential killtask item trajectory from ~20 to 50 in the BGs and Frontiers would definitely help.

However, tier D especially is, at this point in time, severely lacking in rewards as well.

Here's my suggestion:

A) VASTLY increase the XP gained for player kills.

Right now the XP is increased by a margin but it's absolutely trivial. Actual kills are so scarce that meaningful XP progression through RvR is unthinkable. Especially killing higher level players should grant tremendous XP rewards.

An ideal balance would be where you could start at the beginning level of a BG and end up around the highest level of a BG by the time you get RR capped. This amount of XP rewards should carry through in the Frontiers so that this playstyle remains supprted.

B) Grant a 75% capped Class Template upon RR capping BGs or later for hitting milestone RRs.

Upon reaching the maximum RR for a BG, you can go to your trainer to collect a full set of armor and weapons of 99% Quality which will grant you a full coverage of stats up to ~75% of the maximum. Keep in mind that jewelry is not included here. This way, jewelry can be used to cap out the desired stats and resists without turning it into a fully capped template. The procs are appropriate for RvR (no reactive DoTs, DDs or DMG shields on armor).

For RR capping Thidranki for instance, you would get a level 28 armor and weapon set.
For Abermenai, a level 34 set.
For Caledonia, a level 38 set.

Once you reach milestone RRs in the Frontiers or DF you can progress on to level 42, 46 and eventually level 51 sets. The level ranges are retroactive, meaning that if you make a lucky kill at a low level and cap out a BG you can still choose the reward that is appropriate for your level, instead of getting a level 42 set at level 28 for instance. You can not choose a set that is more than 8 levels above yours.

Keep in mind that you still need to collect the appropriate jewelry to make sure you end up with stats that are reasonable to you. The amount of stats on the armor should be calculated so that a player can relatively easily end up with a ~%90 capped template when he has the appropriate jewelry. Of course, capping key stats is and leaving others at 75% is an option if you choose to do so through your jewelry choices.

This set of armor should not replace all other drops or crafted pieces. It should simply be a sub-optimal, yet decent set of gear which makes you just satisfied enough to participate in RvR with confidence, yet prevent you from seeing this as your final kit of armor and weapons towards the future. Obviously, this set should beat the random collection of PvE RoG drops most of the time.

The idea is to reward RvR style character progression in a way that allows players to focus on RvR, rather than the necessary farming that it usually requires. Once players can comfortably choose RvR first and farming second, we will see a serious increase in RvR participation accross the board. Ideally, this influx would be driven by the lowest tiers.

C) Increase the chance of Jewelry RoG drops in the Frontiers and BGs.

Combined with the above, this makes for a logical feature which is helpful for both E and D tiers.

It is my strong belief that this server should absolutely invest into the playstyles which generate players in tiers E and D. This is the core of what keeps RvR fresh and welcoming. If you fail to invest in these players and playstyles, the server will quickly become stale and the playerbase rigid, setting in motion a spiral of decay.

PS: I remain in favor of granting a small, castable (10s) speed boost for all players (value ~130).

PPS: I've read somewhere that Alchemy still forces players to farm to craft the desired recipes. An RvR based alternative should be considered imo. Or the removal of those requirements altogether.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 7:49 AM by Gnarrg

I'd love to level my chars in the BGs, so upvote

Thu 2 Aug 2018 9:25 AM by Frigzy

Good to hear!

Ideally, you would be encouraged to face enemies in the Frontiers as well with the same purpose.

Thu 2 Aug 2018 4:31 PM by Danaeh

Ideas like this is what we need

Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:14 PM by Magesty

I like this post and enjoy seeing progressive, well-composed ideas presented to attempt to create a sustainable RvR environment, but I disagree with your premise. I don't think sub level fifty characters have that much importance in the overall ecosystem. I believe the most important players are zergers. I'd also argue that, while the zerg as a whole might be an A+ tier entity, the individual zergling is actually what should comprise the D tier and is really what the C and B tiers would like to be feeding on. Your D tier of sub-level fifty characters will never be ideal as they are not enjoyable to fight and are much more likely to just seek a safe, alternative place to level. No matter the rewards offered in the RvR zones they will opt to stay in the safety of their realm if they are getting killed without a chance to fight back every time they leave their keep. Sub-level fifty players' existence is TRANSIENT-- their progression goal is getting to level 50, and it can always be achieved fairly easily in safety. It does not take much time to progress to fifty on Phoenix. Sub level 50s are much less important to the overall RvR environment than the casual player who has completed their PvE progression (as far as they are concerned), enjoys zerging and just wants to get out in the action whenever possible.

As someone who lives in the B and C tier and has for basically my entire DAoC career I have very little interest in killing lower level characters. In OF it is often unavoidable, but ideally there will be a healthy population of poorly-geared and poorly-piloted level 50s who just want to get with the zerg. In NF there would be a consistent streams of these players who were either trying to get to a boat/run to join up with the zerg or were out trying to solo/small man with their buddies while the zerg was inactive. These players are the true substance of the RvR ecosystem. As it is in nature with schools of fish or herds of herbivores the predators thrive when they can track these large groups and pick off the stragglers.

So what can be done to encourage these players to occasionally venture out alone/in small groups? I think looking to NF provides the solutions. As reviled as NF seems to be in the free shard community, it actually solved a lot of the core problems with DAoC RvR.

Zergers need to feel like they have a CHANCE to get to the zerg safely. Firstly this means being informed about where it might be. The Realm War map implemented with NF did a great job of providing the casual player with some knowledge about what was happening and where the action was. The frontiers weren't some blind, gaping void. They had an idea what was going on and where they could go to find potential group mates. I don't think it is fair to expect a casual, uninformed player to know who to message or what chat to join. They should be able to log in, see where action might be, and head out there! The goal is to get new(!?!?) and casual players to feel like they can log in and have a fun time quickly. Sure they might die once or twice on occasion, but eventually they will swim to the school and have a good PvP experience.

The next thing they need is to feel like they can actually get to the safety of their realm mates. In OF there is almost no chance of a solo/small group of poorly equipped and non-ideal classes to get through the gauntlet of the mile gates and the massive stretches of open territory that exist within the frontiers. Since leaving safety clearly isn't an option they simply sit and pool up waiting for numbers large enough for them to feel safe. This is boring. It quickly makes the game feel stale and frustrating. After leveling all the way to 50 and spending large stretches of times waiting for groups to do that the last thing they want is to have to sit around in RvR as well. In NF this was solved by having "soft" choke points. If there were players camping where you needed to go there were plenty of ways to get around be it by swimming under water, or even going to a totally different keep. A little zergling could try to save time by running straight through to the docks or taking the quickest path to whatever keep was being sieged, but there was a decent chance of getting picked off depending on the location. No matter-- respawn, and take one of the numerous other routes. It might be slower, but at least the option exists.

I'm unfortunately running out of time to continue this post, but I think most of the points I wanted to make are in here (although I would have liked to discuss towers and perhaps a little bit more about the Realm War Map). The Devs seem to be working on a brilliant reward structure for sieges which should make zerging a very rewarding option. Now it is just a matter of creating an environment where happy and healthy zerglings are encouraged to venture out in non-ideal situations to be the fodder that they are.

Fri 3 Aug 2018 1:06 AM by Frigzy

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:14 PM
I like this post and enjoy seeing progressive, well-composed ideas presented to attempt to create a sustainable RvR environment, but I disagree with your premise. I don't think sub level fifty characters have that much importance in the overall ecosystem. I believe the most important players are zergers. I'd also argue that, while the zerg as a whole might be an A+ tier entity, the individual zergling is actually what should comprise the D tier and is really what the C and B tiers would like to be feeding on.

Zergs are an interesting concept. I agree with you that they consist of mainly D tier players.

However, zergs do not form out of the blue.

They form when there is a large portion of RvR-minded, but casual players who either have a goal (bossraid, relic or keep) or are facing superior enemies; either in numbers or skill. Joining up as a zerg will give them the advantage these players need to be able to compete.

However, in a standard situation, before a zerg is formed, these casual players do not have a way to gain an advantage over their A- and S-tier opponents in an ecosystem where PvE is the only viable XP progression and thus where players grind to 50 before RvRing. Every RvR player will be 50!

This means that before a zerg is formed, casual players are at a perpetual disadvantage in RvR. In other words, they are unable to consistently enjoy RvR outside of the occasional zerg experience.

Over time, casual RvR will fizzle out this way and the A- and S-tier players simply become overwhelmingly represented in the frontiers. We have seen this dynamic in the past.

This is why encouraging non-50s to RvR is so important.

A level advantage is one of the only ways casual players stand a chance against A- or S-tier players outside of a zerg.

This means that casual players would face odds that are actually manageable instead of impossible when they choose to RvR.

As a result, more players will choose to RvR instead of farming or leveling an alt, resulting in an overall boost in RvR population. In turn, this will in fact spark more frequent zerg forming simply due to the fact that there are more players willing to RvR (and of course because lowbies would now be eager to join a zerg to get RPs AND XP!).

Instead of spiraling towards a fizzling out of the casual RvR population, it actually gives it the oxygen it so desperately needs to survive in the long run.

And besides, is there anything more Classic™ than a zerg consistent of players from all level ranges?

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:14 PM
Your D tier of sub-level fifty characters will never be ideal as they are not enjoyable to fight and are much more likely to just seek a safe, alternative place to level. No matter the rewards offered in the RvR zones they will opt to stay in the safety of their realm if they are getting killed without a chance to fight back every time they leave their keep.

You are right, but the proposal is not aimed directly towards those players. As explained above, it is to entice players who aim to RvR to actually RvR instead of PvE so that casual players who prefer safety can actually find enemies that they can kill once they hit 50 instead of being completely outclassed by each and every opponent unless they bring significantly larger numbers.

Magesty wrote: ↑
Thu 2 Aug 2018 6:14 PM
So what can be done to encourage these players to occasionally venture out alone/in small groups? I think looking to NF provides the solutions. As reviled as NF seems to be in the free shard community, it actually solved a lot of the core problems with DAoC RvR.

I totally agree that there should be various measures in place which help these players have a consistent enjoyable RvR experience. Time-to-action and keep warfare are definitely aspects of this and should be carefully polished in a way that supports them.

My proposal however is in no way incompatible with these measures and in fact, I believe that being able to progress through RvR will only serve as a very significant boost in overall RvR player participation.

Ideally, I would like to see all of these measures combined into one synergetic whole in which all types of RvR players are properly represented because they genuinely enjoy RvRing in this setting.

Fri 3 Aug 2018 2:48 PM by Magesty

The whole idea of the Realm War map is to facilitate zerg formation. All it takes is one or two groups to start a siege for players to be able to see that on the map and head over. This has been proven to be an effective way for zerglings to find their buddies. It certainly worked like a charm on the classic servers. Zergers would head over to where the big swords or fires are and ask around for a group. The amount of people that would accumulate if a siege lasted a while (and it did with towers around the keeps) was fairly impressive.

I question the importance of non-50s in RvR. I see where you are coming from in that with a truly new player they have to struggle through leveling before they can taste what the game is really all about, but that is what the BGs are supposed to be for. The BGs here need to be fleshed out a bit, but PvE progression on Phoenix really isn't difficult, and it is a great way for people to learn the game and class mechanics.

On live classic servers lower levels would often run out to join the zerg. Why not? They had an idea of where it was and it was fairly easy to get there. Once they get there, however, no one wants to group them. They are generally just leeching, and taking away a slot from a 50 who might contribute to the group's RP gain. Trying to figure out how to fix this issue leads into the dangerous territory that many games go into of artificially buffing lower level players when they are grouped with higher people in PvP. To some extent this issue will be fixed with Phoenix's proposed RP pool system for keep battles. If they added an XP pool as well perhaps it will draw out a lot more lowbies. That being said they need to know where the sieges are taking place and actually have more than a snowball's chance in hell to get there.

Exp for killing realm enemies is already fairly high, but an increase is always welcome. The difficulty here is balancing it properly for BGs so people don't cap out instantly.

Casual players will always be at a disadvantage in RvR. They aren't as skilled, they don't run ideal setups, and they aren't coordinated. It is a fact of life in any PvP game that there are lower and higher tier players. To lessen this extreme you don't manually level the playing field with buffs and items, but you create an environment where lower tier players can find ways to compete. In the case of DAoC that is forming a zerg. A side note-- zerging is quite fun for plenty of people and is their preferred play style.

I'm still not clear on the level advantage you are talking about. You can't level past 50. If whatever casual players are doing somehow gives them an XP advantage over hardcore players you can bet the hardcore players will start doing it and will do it better.

It seems like we agree on general idea here. It is important to keep casual players interested and coming out to RvR. I think this is done simply through implementing things that were already added in NF. You make the zerg experience accessible, consistent, and rewarding. It is also important to lower the end game PvE requirements so players can get out to RvR fairly quickly and still feel strong-- things like improved epic armor and champion weapons were great for this. This also gave the more hardcore players who took the time to template a way to separate themselves from the pack a little bit.

If you make all these kinds of changes one concern remains, and I think it is the worst one: Do enough casual DAoC players still exist?

Fri 3 Aug 2018 7:27 PM by Frigzy

Magesty wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Aug 2018 2:48 PM
I'm still not clear on the level advantage you are talking about. You can't level past 50. If whatever casual players are doing somehow gives them an XP advantage over hardcore players you can bet the hardcore players will start doing it and will do it better.

This is true. Competitive players will always seek out maximum advantage. However, Competitive players also like a challenge. They also need to get to 50 somehow.

If they can combine getting to 50 with RvR instead of being pigeonholed into doing it through PvE, a decent portion of these players will in fact choose to participate in RvR before 50. These are the players I am talking about.

Those who are more casual might either join a zerg if it's around when they are lower level or simply stick to the safer zones. In other words, the chances are that they will participate in RvR once they are level 50.

With this setting in place, there will be a relatively constant amount of non-50s RvRing. They are still a challenge because they are likely to be relatively skilled players. However, they are less of a challenge as they would be when they were 50 and templated.

This means that if casual players level to 50 through PvE and then decide to RvR, they will be at a level advantage to some players, rather than to no-one.

This advantage is impossible if PvE is the superior character progression choice by far. There will be no non-50s in that case.

We've seen it happen before and it makes sense to stall RvR participation as long as possible if you can't really progress through RvR.

The main point of my idea is to entice players to participate in RvR before they have gain maximum progression because gaining progression and RvR now go hand in hand.

Sat 4 Aug 2018 12:02 AM by Magesty

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Fri 3 Aug 2018 7:27 PM
The main point of my idea is to entice players to participate in RvR before they have gain maximum progression because gaining progression and RvR now go hand in hand.

This is one of Camelot Unchained's founding theories. Do away with the PvE all together and make the game wholly about what is most exciting: PvP.

Hopefully some more core changes come down the pipes to allow weaker level 50s and lower level players to seek out and participate in joyous player combat more frequently. I doubt Phoenix will ever push progression to be entirely RvR oriented due to the fact that there is simply massive amounts of PvE content in the game, and a lot of old school players that like the duality of DAoC.

Sat 4 Aug 2018 5:18 PM by Frigzy

Yeah, I quite like the feather system as it is. A healthy balance between PvE and RvR is important I think.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:02 PM by Laadna

Frigzy wrote: ↑
Wed 1 Aug 2018 8:17 AM
A) VASTLY increase the XP gained for player kills.
[...]

Yes, absolutely. Either to get people to come and fight in the battlegrounds or to reward those who fight back when they do PvE in the frontiers and meet a solo/smallman, this is a good thing. Not because it reduces the time it takes you to get to 50, but because it is an interesting alternative to PvE. How about using the same amount of xp than on former PvP servers ?

B) Grant a 75% capped Class Template upon RR capping BGs or later for hitting milestone RRs.

This, I disagree. ROG already reduces a lot of potential customers for crafters who only get lvl 51 orders. What you suggest can be made by crafters, hence encouraging players to talk and trade with one another. What is needed here is a template for all classes who need the same stats, so that the crafter just has to ajust the skills and nobody has to bother spending hours on Moras or Loki to make a template that will become useless in a couple of evenings. Players can do that.

C) Increase the chance of Jewelry RoG drops in the Frontiers and BGs.

This could be a good idea that would combine well with crafting. However, it would mean that people who are looking for ROG weapons and armor to make some money would flee from the frontiers.

However, I am afraid that those kind of features dramatically reduce the amount of players in non-frontiers zones. Right now it is already quite complicated to set up a party and tell people that you'd prefer staying inland. I am aware that putting more people in the frontiers is interesting for long-term dynamics, but in the meantime I know that a lot of people are not fully and always RvR-focused. Plus, there is so much places that are completely forgotten, it is really a shame. So, please, don't make these incentives so powerfull that nobody (or not enough to make small parties, which would be the same in the end) would go inland pass lvl 20.

Sun 5 Aug 2018 3:24 PM by Frigzy

Laadna wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:02 PM
B) Grant a 75% capped Class Template upon RR capping BGs or later for hitting milestone RRs.
This, I disagree. ROG already reduces a lot of potential customers for crafters who only get lvl 51 orders. What you suggest can be made by crafters, hence encouraging players to talk and trade with one another. What is needed here is a template for all classes who need the same stats, so that the crafter just has to ajust the skills and nobody has to bother spending hours on Moras or Loki to make a template that will become useless in a couple of evenings. Players can do that.

I guess this can be remedied by farming the mobs in the BGs or RvR zones for the occasional RoG drops as well on moments where there's less action.

Laadna wrote: ↑
Sun 5 Aug 2018 1:02 PM
C) Increase the chance of Jewelry RoG drops in the Frontiers and BGs.
This could be a good idea that would combine well with crafting. However, it would mean that people who are looking for ROG weapons and armor to make some money would flee from the frontiers.

However, I am afraid that those kind of features dramatically reduce the amount of players in non-frontiers zones. Right now it is already quite complicated to set up a party and tell people that you'd prefer staying inland. I am aware that putting more people in the frontiers is interesting for long-term dynamics, but in the meantime I know that a lot of people are not fully and always RvR-focused. Plus, there is so much places that are completely forgotten, it is really a shame. So, please, don't make these incentives so powerfull that nobody (or not enough to make small parties, which would be the same in the end) would go inland pass lvl 20.

I get your point and it's an important one. However, you also have to keep in mind that the risk will be even higher to actually go into the frontiers since there will be more players looking for XPers either to get XP on themselves or simply to RvR being 50s.

As a consequence, the mainland becomes relatively more interesting due to its safety.

Thu 9 Aug 2018 6:19 PM by Ayb

I get your point and it's an important one. However, you also have to keep in mind that the risk will be even higher to actually go into the frontiers since there will be more players looking for XPers either to get XP on themselves or simply to RvR being 50s.

As a consequence, the mainland becomes relatively more interesting due to its safety.

In regards to this I don't really have much to say other than that when exp groups in the fz get constantly wiped I see those people -tend- to just disband and play something else rather than go somewhere safe in mainland. I dunno what makes people so fickle these days but the current environment seems to be people disintegrating from groups after just one or two wipes and it's hard to keep a group together.

That being said, in regards to leveling I almost would like to see the old classic dungeons get some love for better drops to at least make that an option, as it is everyone just xp item hunts or fz/df xps and you hardly ever see people using the old zones or old dungeons if they can avoid them.

Wed 22 Aug 2018 2:25 PM by schreon

The problem with the PvE / RvR duality is that RvR does not work with a too small number of players and that PvE draws away people from RvR, while at the same time PvE is necessary in order to compete in RvR. In situations with a low population that leads to a downward spiral with empty RvR.

In my experience it is not only casual players who are scared away from unfair RvR situations. In the course of the past few weeks I played a lot with several DAoC veterans who master their classes very well in group RvR. However, upon running into an enemy FG for the third time in a row while being just a 2-3 smallman, even the most experienced players will stop running. Either be patient and choose hidden routes, trying to attack some XPers, which costs an insane amount of time currently. Or log off or log over to another alt and do PvE. Or log over to a stealth class, so you can at least choose when to engage.

What would help is giving FGs or larger smallman groups something to do, so they dont have the time to constantly farm smaller smallmen or solos.

It all boils down to the fact that you need more players in RvR. If all frontiers would be packed with people farming stuff and XPing, a single FG could not spoil the fun of the rest of the server population. Simply because they cannot be everywhere at the same time.

In those situations during the past weeks I always thought: If all people currently online would form a zerg now, no matter which level their toon is right now, they would easily beat that enemy FG. But it does not happen, because that is so difficult to organize and the rewards are way too small. Leech very few RPs with my level 20 character? So i'm 1L4 now instead of 1L1? Wow... that cost me at least 60-120 minutes while the zerg was gathering and then searching that FG ... I would have made at least 5 levels in that time. Damn.

People need rewards in RvR, like Frigzy explained, and there have to be mechanics giving smallmen and solos something to do in RvR even when there are dominant/unbeatable enemies present. And, imho, mechanics are necessary which discourage farming underpowered enemies, and other mechanics which give such groups something interesting to do instead.

Like scripted Bosses in FZ similar to Evern and Green Knight, but weaker, which grant more realm points than you would get by farming underpowered enemies, but not as much as you would gain from fighting equal enemies.

Add incentives to stick around in RvR even when there is almost no action temporarily.

Add incentives to stick around even if you get beaten without a chance from time to time.

Add RvR things to do for winning groups which prevent them from chain killing the remaining underdog enemy players.

Ease the way to form counter zergs and add extra rewards doing so.

Add hotspots so groups of varying sizes know where to find each other. Maybe the mobs giving RPs I mentioned earlier could be designed so that there are mobs which only grant XP when solo / duo / 3-4 people / 5-7 people / 8 people. Put those mobs as distant from each other as possible. This will give groups of certain sizes an incentive to stick to specific regions even when there are no enemies currently. Enemy groups of the same size will have an incentive to go to the same region and probably find an equal match against the other similar-sized groups. At the same time the groups of other sizes are far away, and they make more RPs waiting for their adequate RP mobs to respawn rather than running over and ganking a smaller group. Maybe even massively reduce the amount of RPs earned killing a player while there are less enemy players around in a certain radius. This would further discourage ganking/farming players.

Also, it would be very nice to have all the forgotten PvE zoned populated again in theory. I posted suggestions about this myself ( regarding exploration rewards ), but I doubt a server which will face times where low server population becomes a serious problem, this is a luxury phoenix probably cannot afford? Maybe in the first few months after release, but not in the long run. Bringing most of the people into RvR zones as early and as consistent as possible is much more important imho than people leveling in Stonehenge again.

Thank you for reading this lengthy reply.