Eliminating GvG - Phoenix Freeshard

I have posted before about GvG's and the problems it brings to the game. I'm honestly at the point where I'm about to leave the server permanently, because of the damage it's causing. The GvG's are indirectly cross realming. I just watched a GvG not attack a 4 man and gave them hugs, then when we were engaged with another small group of stealthers, the 4 man added our fight and the albs just left use to die. Then said they didn't attack them, because they didn't add their GvG. When I said something they said I was just mad, because their small man killed my small man. It was 5v2, they had 2 healers and a tank and we were just 2 stealthers.

Another point, is what it is doing to the RvR environment. GvG's are attacking soloers and small mans, which is what happened to myself over and over again on my Mercenary, so I created a Scout. This is doing 1 of 3 things. Making people run with BG's, so they can't get ran over. Making people create stealthers, so they can choose the fights that are more fitting to them and not get ran over all the time. Or the last group of very few in number people stay playing solo, but not many.

GvG is going to ruin this game and needs to be eliminated. I personally think you need to eliminate switching realms, but since we all know that won't happen. I would suggest making it so that you can't log into another realm for a minimum of 2 hours after playing the other realm. Even if it was just PvE. I know people log into other realms and /who Odin or /who Pen to find out who is in what realm, but I also think we need more realm loyalty. The population voted in favor of realm loyalty rewards and you create a mercenary event, which is literally the opposite.

If the GvG doesn't get their own zone or isn't eliminated, this server is going to fail and when you lose people, because they've had enough. They won't come back to check for changes, it will just kill the server.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 10:58 AM by Seelixh

Yes please. I am waiting such a long time for this moment.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 11:10 AM by Astaa

GvG players want people to respect their fights but have no issue running over everyone small or solo and adding on every non-GvG fight they see. The amount of entitlement from them is astonishing.

My advise, just add on them as much as you like.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 12:46 PM by Blitze

I try to not add 8man fights if they’re in the middle of nowhere, however, when it’s in task zone or by docks, then it’s deffo RvR and adds should be expected.

8mans kill my slow visible solo Friar everywhere and anywhere regardless and everytime... I have played long enough that I should be easily recognisable as a non-adder. It’s odd as I don’t think anyone enjoys 8v1. I would’ve thought they got bored by now.

On Uthgard, after I became recognisable, most 8mans ignored me, which is great and I believed it to be due to 8v1 being very boring for 8 and very annoying for 1 and that the community realised constant bashing of your visi-soloers encourages two things:
1. More stealths
2. More server quits.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 2:41 PM by Noashakra

GvG is supposed to list your location to know where are other GvG groups. This feature was for them to go in remote area and still find action.

Despite that, they go to flags, because they are often after easy rps. It creates ccnfusion because there are a lot of groups that are not GvG there. So 1) if you don't know them you are in trouble because they will turn on you 2) you have to second guess if you should fight or not, losing the element of surprise.

GvG should not be allowed near keep fights and tasks...

Sun 20 Dec 2020 5:53 PM by opossum12

I think the basic idea behind the gvg is good, it promotes fair fights and a playstyle that needs these kinds of incentives to thrive.

However, sometimes people are taking it a bit too far, because listing on the gvg allows them to have their cake and eat it too, mainly at the expense of smallman players.

Smallman and visi solo is already incredibly difficult to play. The server is at a point where action is found on 2 areas; task zone and the beno/crau/bled docks (in the realms the task isn't).

It's just ridiculous that people playing 8v8 have respect for groups that thrive on killing smallmans. There is nothing respectable about killing lesser numbers, but the whole idea behind gvg is to be "respectable".

We'll be fighting full groups as a 4-5 man for several minutes (because 90% of the "8 mans" on the server are really bad) and see groups lapping around the fight not jamming. I mean it's obvious it isn"t a fair fight, why respect it?

Couple ideas;

- Earning a kill in the task zone while on the GvG list automatically removes you from the list
- once you drop out of the list, there is a 15 minutes cooldown before you can get back on the gvg list. Earning kills in the task zone resets the cooldown.

To Noashakra's point, this would solve all confusion related to gvg groups hanging out in task zones. You want to lap task zones to feed on pugs? Good, but it'll be tough tonget back on that gvg for the bonus RPs and respect.

Can even have EV provide bonus RPs for people listed in the gvg list (except when EV is task zone).

Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:20 PM by Kurbsen

even if you get rid of the list nothing will change. groups will still pull off due to adds.

server rules - you can attack anyone you want, or chose not to attack anyone.

It definitely can feel bad having a group pull off and you dying because you added, but you need to go into every encounter with an enemy player with some thought. You cant just run in there and mash your buttons. You need to assess the situation.. That pretty much goes for every single pvp game these days. My advice for you is if youre gonna add, get ready to pull off and run yourself if things go wrong.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:33 PM by Astaa

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:20 PM
server rules - you can attack anyone you want, or chose not to attack anyone.

This, play your own game, there is little point respecting other's play style because chances are, they don't care about yours.

Add or don't add.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:49 PM by Noashakra

Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:20 PM
even if you get rid of the list nothing will change. groups will still pull off due to adds.

server rules - you can attack anyone you want, or chose not to attack anyone.

It definitely can feel bad having a group pull off and you dying because you added, but you need to go into every encounter with an enemy player with some thought. You cant just run in there and mash your buttons. You need to assess the situation.. That pretty much goes for every single pvp game these days. My advice for you is if youre gonna add, get ready to pull off and run yourself if things go wrong.

No, sorry, when you are on a task, with all kind of group, why should the normal people penalized about who they fight or notz.
GTFO and go in a remote place, you want to do "clean fight" or you don't. You go in task zones knowing you will get added.
That's why you have a 1000rp bonus for a clean fight, to compensate the supposed rp loss.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 10:03 PM by Kurbsen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:49 PM
Kurbsen wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 9:20 PM
even if you get rid of the list nothing will change. groups will still pull off due to adds.

server rules - you can attack anyone you want, or chose not to attack anyone.

It definitely can feel bad having a group pull off and you dying because you added, but you need to go into every encounter with an enemy player with some thought. You cant just run in there and mash your buttons. You need to assess the situation.. That pretty much goes for every single pvp game these days. My advice for you is if youre gonna add, get ready to pull off and run yourself if things go wrong.

No, sorry, when you are on a task, with all kind of group, why should the normal people penalized about who they fight or notz.
GTFO and go in a remote place, you want to do "clean fight" or you don't. You go in task zones knowing you will get added.
That's why you have a 1000rp bonus for a clean fight, to compensate the supposed rp loss.

its not being penalized. its picking your fights correctly. im sorry if you think hitting every fight without thinking it through is the way you play, but a lot of people dont play that way. GVG command is a custom thing on this server, but the style of gameplay you talk about has been in action for years and years now and thats not gonna change honestly.

Sun 20 Dec 2020 11:36 PM by Noashakra

Dude, on a task, where I know 70% of the groups are adders, I am forced to second guess all my options, and letting go the element of surprise, to check names of people I don't care about, on a list I don't have access to, because you and your friends decided it would be the perfect place for a "clean fight"? In the mean time, you zerg solos and small man with impunity, certainly looking for challenge on those who can't retaliate.

Biggest hypocrites of the server.

GMs should forbid GvG to happen on tasks zone or near hot spots, end of the story.
You don't want to be part of the RVR, no problem, go do your GvG somewhere else. Some people tried to to it on EV when the task wasn't there, but guess why, they stopped because you can't farm easy rps.

The point of this list was to help people to find 8vs8, not have an excuse to transform a 8vs8vs8 into a 16vs8.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 12:50 AM by Hedien

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 11:36 PM
Dude, on a task, where I know 70% of the groups are adders, I am forced to second guess all my options, and letting go the element of surprise, to check names of people I don't care about, on a list I don't have access to, because you and your friends decided it would be the perfect place for a "clean fight"? In the mean time, you zerg solos and small man with impunity, certainly looking for challenge on those who can't retaliate.

Biggest hypocrites of the server.

GMs should forbid GvG to happen on tasks zone or near hot spots, end of the story.
You don't want to be part of the RVR, no problem, go do your GvG somewhere else. Some people tried to to it on EV when the task wasn't there, but guess why, they stopped because you can't farm easy rps.

The point of this list was to help people to find 8vs8, not have an excuse to transform a 8vs8vs8 into a 16vs8.

That was a wrathful, yet fully agreeable statement. I totally second it. Hypocrisy to bolster self worth.
...but, I am just looking at the pragmatic way to enforce this rule: how?

GM would be flooded with "this guy did not help me while I wanted". Maybe I am lacking creativity, but I would welcome a pragmatic solution.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:17 AM by Kurbsen

Noashakra wrote: ↑
Sun 20 Dec 2020 11:36 PM
I am forced to second guess all my options, and letting go the element of surprise, to check names of people I don't care about, on a list I don't have access to, because you and your friends decided it would be the perfect place for a "clean fight"?

this would happen even if no list tho...

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:19 AM by Nephamael

Why can't we just respect each others playstyles and desicions?

The beauty of DaoC is the multiple contents - and the variety of how to play it.

Trying to force other people to play the game exactly in the way you want to play it will only cause harm - no matter if it's the gvg, roam8, zerg, small, add solos or fair solos who ask. - Just let everyone play the game the way they want and stop disrespecting other mindsets than your own one.

Also it is not true that GvG groups run over solos and smalls a lot - mostly those are not listed 8roam groups, a different playstyle from 8v8.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:21 AM by Nephamael

this would happen even if no list tho...

The 8roam groups are the ones harming small and solo content and it would happen much more if there was no /gvg list.

- The correct solution from the Server side of things is to attend more playstyles with QOL tools like /gvg toggle and not to delete QOL for playstyles.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:47 AM by Davidalmightydaoc85

Defending your realm and your realm mates, should always be part of every member of a realms play style though. Realm Loyalty. To let everyone play how they want is fine, but basic realm duties, should not be forgotten. You aren't fighting honorably or with respect, if you turn your back on your realm mates. Here's an acronym to remember and to use even in your own lives, but especially in the game.

LDRSHIP
L.oyalty
D.uty
R.espect
S.elfless Service
H.onor
I.ntegrity
P.ersonal Courage

Mon 21 Dec 2020 4:14 AM by Hedien

Davidalmightydaoc85 wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:47 AM
Defending your realm and your realm mates, should always be part of every member of a realms play style though. Realm Loyalty. To let everyone play how they want is fine, but basic realm duties, should not be forgotten. You aren't fighting honorably or with respect, if you turn your back on your realm mates. Here's an acronym to remember and to use even in your own lives, but especially in the game.

LDRSHIP
L.oyalty
D.uty
R.espect
S.elfless Service
H.onor
I.ntegrity
P.ersonal Courage

Why so cheesy? I feel like I am on Facebook reading 1 like = 1 prayer type of non-sense.
Please stay on point.

I feel GvG functionality should be disabled if this is the task area, as a management-free option.
Not foolproof, not going to totally remove the behavior, but it is a start to not reward people for, as it was stated, looking for clean fight in a crowded area. Eating and keeping the cake.

Sat/Faturday.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:13 AM by Noashakra

Nephamael wrote: ↑
Mon 21 Dec 2020 3:21 AM
this would happen even if no list tho...

The 8roam groups are the ones harming small and solo content and it would happen much more if there was no /gvg list.

it would be the same

Mon 21 Dec 2020 8:28 AM by ExcretusMaximus

I think GvG needs to be removed for different reasons (promoting hypocrisy, rewarding the people who get the most RP with even more RP), but I support the removal.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:55 AM by Lilou07

Well it's not everyday that I fully agree with Noa.

But I will go even further to suggest the creation of a specific GvG Task zone rotating in desycn of the normal task.
Only in this zone you can claim a GvG clean fight.

Mon 21 Dec 2020 9:08 PM by Davidalmightydaoc85

It’s not cheesy to be committed to helping your realm. If you are seeking a selfish game, it shouldn’t be a RvR game. The GvG is as selfish as you can be, when you abandon your realm mates to be killed by enemies of the realm, because you don’t want to lose out on 1000 extra realm points. You shouldn’t reward this type of behavior, yet that’s exactly what’s happening.

Thu 24 Dec 2020 6:29 AM by bculpepper

Agreed - Remove GvG.

Some Hib GvG group tonight - while streaming on twitch and whining how they can't get clean fights - are in the task zone. Killed me in the middle of a 1v1. They can do this because - why not? They get bonus points for playing their style and have no penalty for adding on mine?

Alternative idea: There is also a /fairfight list for solo/smallman (that nobody uses). if you are on the GvG list and add a small-man or solo that is on the /fairfight list, then you are auto-removed from the GvG list and can't come back for 30 minutes. I mean - either play one game or the other. You can't be on a "clean fight" list and have no penalty if you roll over everyone. This might also promote use of the /fairfight list.