Better Vanish Suggestion - Phoenix Freeshard

I played from both sides and can tell you vanish has its purpose but it also has its cheapness, But some of use came up with a decent solution.

Purpose: You 1v1 someone, then someone else adds on you and you are now at a great disadvantage of 2v1
Purpose: You kill an enemy in 1v1 but before you can stealth an 8man rolls up on you...

Cheapness: You start a 1v1 fight, then vanish because your target isn't an easy kill.

Solution: There are 2 separate requirements that only one of must be met for vanish to be useable.
(1) You can only use vanish if 2 or more enemies are currently attacking you.
(2) An enemy target that you did damage to has died in the last 10 seconds.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:01 AM by Turano

I have an even easier solution. Remove the speed, super stealth, disarm and silence from the ability.
Viola! No more escaping 1v1

Tue 4 Jun 2019 6:07 AM by Niix

Suggestion: Vanish is not usable under 40% health.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 6:49 AM by Sepplord

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:01 AM
I have an even easier solution. Remove the speed, super stealth, disarm and silence from the ability.
Viola! No more escaping 1v1

i like this one...people seem to have huge problems with drawing a fight....let's turn vanish into something that we can use to actually WIN a fight, like other active RAs do, instead of just running away

i am intrested in how the whining would turn out then

Tue 4 Jun 2019 7:23 AM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 6:49 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:01 AM
I have an even easier solution. Remove the speed, super stealth, disarm and silence from the ability.
Viola! No more escaping 1v1

i like this one...people seem to have huge problems with drawing a fight....let's turn vanish into something that we can use to actually WIN a fight, like other active RAs do, instead of just running away

i am intrested in how the whining would turn out then

classic vanish behavior -> got changed for a reason in NF

Tue 4 Jun 2019 7:42 AM by Sepplord

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 7:23 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 6:49 AM
Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:01 AM
I have an even easier solution. Remove the speed, super stealth, disarm and silence from the ability.
Viola! No more escaping 1v1

i like this one...people seem to have huge problems with drawing a fight....let's turn vanish into something that we can use to actually WIN a fight, like other active RAs do, instead of just running away

i am intrested in how the whining would turn out then

classic vanish behavior -> got changed for a reason in NF

Yeah, i wasn't serious. I snarkily said it that way to make people think about what they are actually crying about.... it is already nerfed into a mediocre utility RA that "sometimes" let's you get away every 15minutes and has no offensive use at all. It's abusable in DF to not wipe out. But i would trade it for most other special-active RAs any day.

I just had a talk with friends on the weekend, where i told them how i am pretty close to speccing out of it, since my personal use has diminished. When i was low-RR and couldn't beat most straight forward fights i often used it and got away. Now with higher RR i mostly just beat the simpletons i needed it for before...and the enemies that are still too strong usually find me after vanishing, because they use their brain and lucidity potions.
I also find more people again after they vanish...even on my visible (though i admit that takes a bunch of luck on top of a good sneak-nose).

The main problem with vanish is that it makes players feel like they have won, but didn't get a reward. It is frustrating and i have been on the recieving end too. (i would even go as far as saying assassins probably get vanished on the most, just because of the sheer amount of fighting especially unplanned fighting that happens between assassins). I am not against removing stuff that feels bad. Feeling bad in a game sucks. But then we need an alternative, and the alternative is giving us something that actually matters infight.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 8:09 AM by dstrmberg

Or just give +1000 rps to the player attacking you when you vanish. Becuase you basically won the fight when a stealther vanishes 1vs1.

And -1000 rps to the stealther (Dishonored penalty). ;-)

Tue 4 Jun 2019 8:32 AM by inoeth

Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 7:42 AM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 7:23 AM
Sepplord wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 6:49 AM
i like this one...people seem to have huge problems with drawing a fight....let's turn vanish into something that we can use to actually WIN a fight, like other active RAs do, instead of just running away

i am intrested in how the whining would turn out then

classic vanish behavior -> got changed for a reason in NF

Yeah, i wasn't serious. I snarkily said it that way to make people think about what they are actually crying about.... it is already nerfed into a mediocre utility RA that "sometimes" let's you get away every 15minutes and has no offensive use at all. It's abusable in DF to not wipe out. But i would trade it for most other special-active RAs any day.

I just had a talk with friends on the weekend, where i told them how i am pretty close to speccing out of it, since my personal use has diminished. When i was low-RR and couldn't beat most straight forward fights i often used it and got away. Now with higher RR i mostly just beat the simpletons i needed it for before...and the enemies that are still too strong usually find me after vanishing, because they use their brain and lucidity potions.
I also find more people again after they vanish...even on my visible (though i admit that takes a bunch of luck on top of a good sneak-nose).

The main problem with vanish is that it makes players feel like they have won, but didn't get a reward. It is frustrating and i have been on the recieving end too. (i would even go as far as saying assassins probably get vanished on the most, just because of the sheer amount of fighting especially unplanned fighting that happens between assassins). I am not against removing stuff that feels bad. Feeling bad in a game sucks. But then we need an alternative, and the alternative is giving us something that actually matters infight.

imo since archers have the same detection as assassins, the vanish problem is not as strong as before. most times is find those cowards now ;D but its still very frustrating to fight vs multiple opponents where you actually could beat one of them but this guy just vanishes and let his mates do the rest of the job and get rp for it. but not sure how to solve that, other than remove vanish completely. its just trololol behavior of the ppl ;(

Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:05 AM by Sepplord

dstrmberg wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 8:09 AM
Or just give +1000 rps to the player attacking you when you vanish. Becuase you basically won the fight when a stealther vanishes 1vs1.

And -1000 rps to the stealther (Dishonored penalty). ;-)

if it stops the whining, i am all for giving people RP for dmg done to vanishing targets. It is a weird change, but it would remove a lot of the "feeling" cheated out of rewards

Dishonored penalty though doesn't make sense:
a) nothing ingame currently takes RP away, why introduce it just out of spite?
b) vanish is used in many situation that are not "dishonorable" no matter how you look at it
c) the majority of RPs in DAoC are rewarded for "dishonorable" fights, REWARDED not taken away

Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:28 AM by dstrmberg

I'm joking a bit with the dishonored penalty... ;-)

But making a stealther use vanish should reward the player doing so IMO.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:39 AM by Sepplord

dstrmberg wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 9:28 AM
I'm joking a bit with the dishonored penalty... ;-)

But making a stealther use vanish should reward the player doing so IMO.

i wasn't sure, there have been crazier demands/suggestions on these forums that also had a smiley but were being serious

Regarding the last part...i somewhat agree, but somewhat also disagree.

Why is making a stealther vanish so different from making a caster MoC or a minstrel SoS or a champ use Static?
Should it apply to all huge RA-CDs and how do we then handle purge? Does it give RP always, or only if it isn'T specced higher, because higher Purge isn't a long CD anymore. Does making someone use purge give RPs, but making someone use Slam doesn't? Slam doesn't have a cooldown at all, but through immunity timers is a one time use in most fights and kind of planned for/around like other cooldowns are.

I am all for having a RP system that doesn't only reward the kill at the end, but also rewards steps in between...but it has to be done extremely careful or it would either give out too much rewards for not doing much, or become meaningless. And even when balanced in itself, the difference between someone getting away at low-life and finishing them needs to be significant enough to keep the satisfaction of actually killing people instead of simply whacking at each other while healers in the back keep everyone topped off.

Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:01 PM by Cruella

Vanish

You can only use vanish when:

1.) There is more than 1 player attacking you in 1500 range (Bows,Casts etc)
<-Counter against getting zerged by multiples.

2.) Your target is not beeing attackedby more than 1 player in 1500 range (Bows,Casts etc)
<-Counter against stealth zerg.

3.) The targets/attackers geht the rps they would normaly get killing you divided by the amount of participants

Tue 4 Jun 2019 3:05 PM by florin

How about this

Vanish is pbaoe spell used against opponents - like blind

Those within the range can resist the spell based on the level of Vanish

This would have a counter and a reason to spec higher levels of the RA

Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:10 PM by Turano

how about every RA gets some random prerequisits added to them? just some possible examples

TWF can no longer be used in proximity to keeps or milegates
SoS can no longer be used when alone
IP can not be used if only 1 enemy is within 2000 range
Static tempest has no effect on enemies with stun immunity
MoC can not be used with damaging spells

you guys are ridiculous

Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:22 PM by inoeth

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:10 PM
how about every RA gets some random prerequisits added to them? just some possible examples

TWF can no longer be used in proximity to keeps or milegates
SoS can no longer be used when alone
IP can not be used if only 1 enemy is within 2000 range
Static tempest has no effect on enemies with stun immunity
MoC can not be used with damaging spells

you guys are ridiculous

hi NS

Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:36 PM by Turano

inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:22 PM
hi NS

/wave

To be honest it would not hurt me in the slightest if vanish got deleted right now.
I definitely got vanished on more often than I vanished away from adds.

And I've had at least the same amount of minstrels and skalds sos away from me in a 1v1 and it is even more annoying than vanish because there is absolutely NO counter against sos.
There are tons of "I win" (twf/IP/ST/..) Ra's out there but people cry about vanish. A RA that does not actively get you a single extra RP. You can take it away in a heartbeat, but I'ld really like to read the tearful whinethreads if we had an actually usefull offensive active RA

Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:48 PM by DasBier

Turano wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:36 PM
inoeth wrote: ↑
Tue 4 Jun 2019 5:22 PM
hi NS
/wave

To be honest it would not hurt me in the slightest if vanish got deleted right now.
I definitely got vanished on more often than I vanished away from adds.

And I've had at least the same amount of minstrels and skalds sos away from me in a 1v1 and it is even more annoying than vanish because there is absolutely NO counter against sos.
There are tons of "I win" (twf/IP/ST/..) Ra's out there but people cry about vanish. A RA that does not actively get you a single extra RP. You can take it away in a heartbeat, but I'ld really like to read the tearful whinethreads if we had an actually usefull offensive active RA

Yep delete vanish and give us something usefull what brutaly hurts my enemies. Let me make them cry becouse of pain

and not becouse of instant stealth.

Wed 5 Jun 2019 7:51 AM by Sepplord

My main problem with all the vanish complaints is that most suggestion just want to make vanish useless or remove it completely without anything else

Is vanish cheesy? Yes
Is it frustrating to get vanished on? Yes, in a huge % of cases where the vansihed isn't found it is very frustrating. But cmon, don't you love wailing on a helpless assassin that just spent their active-cooldown to get silenced and disarmed for the rest of the fight? Bonusfun when they start emotespamming

Lots of things in DAoC are cheesy and frustrating to be on the recieving end though...Turano has already listed a few other cheesy RAs that allow uncounterable escape or turn the fight without any chance for the recieving end.

So why does vanish get so much more whines? Because it is an assassin ability. Assassins have always gotten more whines than other classes, so ofcourse their abilities also get more whines. If vanish gets removed there will be another thing that is brought up in every single thread. And if that gets nerfed/removed there will be something else. Some people would just like to remove the whole class and wouldn't even want us to get a free instant-lvl50 char as replacement, because we are assassins and therefor scum and deserve as much shit as possible.

Regarding latest proposals: i often need to vanish BEFORE i get attacked. When i see a fullgroup cruising at me/my fight i can't wait until they have stunned/attacked me. Often it would kill me, simple as that.

And regarding attackers on target...it would probably not effect me much, but i don't think having other players directly influencing my usage of cooldowns would be a good game mechanic.